It's Alive.

[Dougal]

After four months of lying in pieces, my 4BD1T powered rangie is back together.

In the whole time I've driven it (13 years incl the 6 I've had it) it has had a punctured diaphragm in the aneroid in the fuel pump, meaning it never got full fuel delivery.

Now it has, it's a monster. Bloody thing breaks traction in 2nd gear on tarmac. Turbo (T25) spools up readily from about 1200rpm and EGT's hit 750.

It's never been soo much fun.:twisted:

But how long will my 10spline diffs and axles last with this much torque? Tyres are standard size (225/85R16).

[Blknight.aus]

I shall expect your "how do i change rover axles" queary thread in the tech section tomorrow.

[justinc]

I shall expect your "how do i change rover axles" queary thread in the tech section tomorrow.

:D Should read "How fast am I at changing my busted halfshafts-with pics!" eh Dave!

Especially with the break traction in 2nd gear bit. :eek:

and, You're out of control Dougal;


















but isn't it fun!!!!!!:D:D:D:D


JC

[Roverray]

Your tyres are probably the safety valve at the moment.

[Blknight.aus]

im down to 1 hour for the fronts on the perentine and glad as smeg for the 8HA's in the rear...

and the worst part....

all the vehicles Ive been fixing in the last 2 weeks or so.. All go onto another driver training course Next week....


Im predicting

4 broken halfshafts (and a diff from driving it home broken)

12 busted shocks

17 wheel studs

100000000000000000 flats

and about that many more lights shaken out, bonnet catches bounced and fuses.

If Im really really unlucky I'll get a clutch and a transmission.

[Dougal]

It sounds like I need to start planning. Might have to wind the fuel screw back down a little in the mean time.

So what's the part to be most concerned about? I've heard rear diff usually blows first, but is that due to it being loaded more when climbing with the centre diff locked or is it weaker than the front due to the direction of rotation?

With an unlocked centre diff onroad torque should be the same to front and rear axles. So does this make it more likely I'll blow a front diff first?
Current drivetrain is about 500,000km old if that helps.:angel:

Is 24spline going to help me?

[justinc]

It sounds like I need to start planning. Might have to wind the fuel screw back down a little in the mean time.

So what's the part to be most concerned about? I've heard rear diff usually blows first, but is that due to it being loaded more when climbing with the centre diff locked or is it weaker than the front due to the direction of rotation?

With an unlocked centre diff onroad torque should be the same to front and rear axles. So does this make it more likely I'll blow a front diff first?
Current drivetrain is about 500,000km old if that helps.:angel:

Is 24spline going to help me?

NOTHING will help. You'll just have to wind the fuel back and be nice to it.I have fitted a disc brake Sals to the rear with maxi axles, a 'fender 24spline front diff and wound the fuel back. I don't like busting things and these engines will do it.
JC

[rovercare]

It sounds like I need to start planning. Might have to wind the fuel screw back down a little in the mean time.

So what's the part to be most concerned about? I've heard rear diff usually blows first, but is that due to it being loaded more when climbing with the centre diff locked or is it weaker than the front due to the direction of rotation?

With an unlocked centre diff onroad torque should be the same to front and rear axles. So does this make it more likely I'll blow a front diff first?
Current drivetrain is about 500,000km old if that helps.:angel:

Is 24spline going to help me?

Should be 50/50 but really isn't;)

24 splines will help, they are marginally better than 10 spline, rear blows more often because your usually pointing up a hill bouncing away then pop, You can break rover diffs an axles on command......Literally I've done it........ hey watch this I'll break something right here:eek: BANG:D

But with itty bitty tyres, your pretty right;)

[Dougal]

Man you guys are really putting a damper on my plans. I have a couple of turbos I was planning to put on this thing, but if the axles will only take a tiny little T25 with a gentle foot..........:eek:


Anyway, here's a pic.:twisted::angel:

[1103.9TDI]

......and Dougal, don't forget, it isn't happening without pix:D:D:D:D

[1103.9TDI]

....2 minutes between posts!!....how 'bout some pix of the real thing.....:D:D

[Blknight.aus]

it depends on how you use it, THE 8HA is a tuff bugger and with 24 spliners in it well it'd be damn near indistructable under usual driving loads.

If you go bouncing away at it with the volume turned right the way up to eleven in low first or second and she hops over some rocks while pointing up hill with the rubber down at bugger all psi but enough to prevent rim slip and the tail end grabs a foot full of traction at the same time as the fronts do their impersonation of hot air balloons (always entertaining to watch albeit very short entertainment) then the something is about to have a very very bad hair day..

Im tipping it aint gunna be the front axle, although.... when gravity starts paying attention to the fact that theres a ton odd of landrover thats temporarily decided not to play by the rules and decides to appropriately enforce the regulations its a strong possability I'll get back to that...

So where now the front wheels are waving at the spectators (forgot you needed to do the swivel pin preloads didntcha) and the back wheels are slipping and spinning as they sort of slip and slide into the little dip you were cresting and they grab hold of the rocks and do the seaguls thing claiming mine mine mine mine and grab hold of the rocks (I swear sometimes you can hear them chirping like a pack of fighting birds)

ok so now essentially theres no resistance on the drive line, youve got your foot crushing the louder pedal and the ffood tray is wide open. The little hampsters smell this and go like the clappers in their little cages and start to breath a bit harder trying desperately to get to the food... The magic elf who lives between the hairdriers cocks his ears and they flap in the breeze of the straining rodents so he puts down his tea and crumpets and begins huffing the air at the hampsters to keep them cool so they work harder... as the breeze increases the pixie in charge of the adrenalin kicks in shoots the hampsters full of speed and hey presto what was a nice simple jaunt at 1500 turns a minute is now a mad screaming rush of utter chaos and panic that results in lots and lots of go...

And all that go has to go somewhere so it trys to turn the wheels... that arent touching anything so turn they do and it all gets faster faster always going never knowing......

ITs righ about now that the back wheels get a touch dizzy and grab hold of the planet and moan "make it stop, Im gunna be sick" now when they stop all this wonderfull effort that the hampsters are putting in has to go somewhere... essentially pick a part of your drive line and call it an equals sign. whats on one side must equal whats on the other or the equal sign is going to break....

bye bye rear axle..


Now in all this commotion gravity has decided that the now vertigious front wheels need to be relocated planet side and right now style but theres a problem... remember all that effort that was going to the back wheels the effort that says that the ground under the front wheels should be moving at more or less the same speed as the front wheels are turning... Remeber the broken equals sign? theres all this effort going nowhere through the broken equals sign, but thats ok theres another out let for it on the front.....

care to guess whats going to happen when you stop yeeeha ing around and the lack of accelerative force from the busted back end lets the front come crashing down to get a tyre set full of traction while the little hampsters are still on their adrenaline fueled speed rush.... (assuming the swivel bearings dont decide to go and explore some other part of the axlehousing out of boredem at this point in time)


so keep it simple, dont put such a big fan in front of the hampsters and keep the pixie with the hypo under control and your laughing so long as you keep all the rubber on the road... (or what passes for one)

[1103.9TDI]

....geeze Dave, we'll have to add 'poet' to your multitude of talents.......nice post:D:D:D:D

[Bush65]

Dougal,

That is good news about your rangie.

IMHO the weakest part of the drive line is the 2 pinion diff centre.

Once that is fixed, by fitting lockers (4 pinion), the 10 spline axles become the weak link.

Fit after market 24 spline axles, then the crownwheel and pinion .........

.........

Other than my disco, which has after market diff centres and axles, I've moved on from rover drive lines.

I was intending to adapt the LT230 behind the Isuzu in the rangie (by re-splining the input gear, because others were interested in this), but had to change plans because the front extension housing wouldn't clear the side of the MXA-6R gearbox.

[1103.9TDI]

John, are you aware of anyone producing a stronger Rover crown wheel and pinion commercially?.

[Blknight.aus]

if youve got the sals putting a deflection block in would be the first upgrade....

Ive never killed an 8HA and IVe done some umm less than nice things to them...

[DRanged]

Dougal

Members of the Gold Coast Land Rover Club are bringin in 4:1 CWP sets from the States at the moment . These are the h/d spanish sets and are superb quality. $1100 for the f/r set. + freight

You can go as far as pegging your diff centres etc but really it depends on how you drive it.

I run 35" Creepy Crawlers at 6-8 psi with bead locks all Maxi diffs and 4:1 CWP,s.

I have screwed 2 rear tail shafts and broken 1 front outer shaft. Currenly putting in Maxidrive CV strengthening rings and modified outer shafts ( ie maching a groove to act as a shear pin ). Might be a bit over the top but we are taking it to Malaysia next year so need to have reliability.

Justin

ps ours goes very well on 35" tyres, must run it on some standards one day.;)

[Dougal]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

It appears lockers and 24spline axles are the go. They were planned eventually, but it'd even be pushing my luck to run what I've got with more boost and fuel. I've got the turbos, manifold and some profiles for the compound turbo setup. It'll be a long and interesting story. First part is fitting the variable vane turbo as a single.

My offroad driving style is on the sensible side of silly. Just.

Unfortunately stronger crown and pinions are almost all lower geared. I don't want to leave 3.54 for now and keep stock tyre size (within reason) due to legality, garaging and the long onroad trips this vehicle does. If I get worried I'll put in a slipper block.

Now which axles and lockers? A 24spline locker and axles will fit my 10spline hubs and carrier with only minor work (air lines etc)?

[andrew e]

Pics of pulling seconds please. Now put on some 35s and repeat......wouldn't those egts melt pistons or somthing?


Dave before you go buyng new diffs, which you will be needing soon.

I'm selling 2 sets of diffs at the moment, 1 pair is out of my buggy, range rover housings with 4.3lsd centers (toyota) high pinion front, jac mac chromolly axles, Haultech heat treated cvs etc etc would almost be a bolt in with minor mods.

The other pair are out of a 2004 Ford F250 superduty, which had a fire in the cab. Dana 60 high pinion front and sterling 10.25 inch rear LSD, 4.1s etc. the front is a LHS pinion, so it needs serious mods to fit, but its possible.

your pick for 2K

I could also help ship either set over the ditch.

Sorry i hope mods dont see this as spam, if so feel free to delete.


Andy

[justinc]

Pics of pulling seconds please. Now put on some 35s and repeat......wouldn't those egts melt pistons or somthing?


Dave before you go buyng new diffs, which you will be needing soon.

I'm selling 2 sets of diffs at the moment, 1 pair is out of my buggy, range rover housings with 4.3lsd centers (toyota) high pinion front, jac mac chromolly axles, Haultech heat treated cvs etc etc would almost be a bolt in with minor mods.

The other pair are out of a 2004 Ford F250 superduty, which had a fire in the cab. Dana 60 high pinion front and sterling 10.25 inch rear LSD, 4.1s etc. the front is a LHS pinion, so it needs serious mods to fit, but its possible.

your pick for 2K

I could also help ship either set over the ditch.

Sorry i hope mods dont see this as spam, if so feel free to delete.


Andy


Hey Andy,

No probs, I used to eat sliced deep fried battered spam, so in this case I'll let it slide..:D.plus it IS sort of related to the thread considering we are talking about Dougal trashing drivetrains...:cool: In future a direction to markets may be a better idea, :wasntme:

JC

[Dougal]

Pics of pulling seconds please. Now put on some 35s and repeat......wouldn't those egts melt pistons or somthing?


Dave before you go buyng new diffs, which you will be needing soon.

I'm selling 2 sets of diffs at the moment, 1 pair is out of my buggy, range rover housings with 4.3lsd centers (toyota) high pinion front, jac mac chromolly axles, Haultech heat treated cvs etc etc would almost be a bolt in with minor mods.

The other pair are out of a 2004 Ford F250 superduty, which had a fire in the cab. Dana 60 high pinion front and sterling 10.25 inch rear LSD, 4.1s etc. the front is a LHS pinion, so it needs serious mods to fit, but its possible.

your pick for 2K

I could also help ship either set over the ditch.

Sorry i hope mods dont see this as spam, if so feel free to delete.


Andy


I've just turned the fuel down from "silliness" to "silliness - quarter turn". I haven't had much openroad and when I did a 0-100 run (about 15 seconds) the needle hit 800 deg.:(

Silliness - quarter turn = stock.:cool:

If I could live with lower gearing those axles would be the business. But this weekend I've got about 1300km to do with a party, a wedding, a bit of showing off and mountainbike shuttling in the middle. 2000rpm at 100km/h is bliss.

The scary part, the oil I put in two days ago is still clean and clear.:eek: I get a faint puff of grey smoke when planting the boot from standstill in 2nd gear.

Every drive I come back grinning from ear to ear. Told the wife she's not allowed to drive it now.

[Bush65]

John, are you aware of anyone producing a stronger Rover crown wheel and pinion commercially?.
Sorry I can't help with definitive answer.

As the ratio decreases from stock 3.54:1 to after market 4.1:1 or 4.11:1, the pinion diameter is reduced. This increases to tooth load for the same tractive effort at the tyre contact with the road.

So even if the teeth are stronger, they have to endure higher loads.

I prefer 4.11:1 over 4.1: because the 4.11:1 gears have larger, which should be stronger (given material, heat treatment etc are the same).

8" toyota diff centres can be fitted to rover axle housings. Because these have hypoid ring and pinion, they are much stronger than the rover spiral bevel ring and pinion.

[Bush65]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

It appears lockers and 24spline axles are the go. They were planned eventually, but it'd even be pushing my luck to run what I've got with more boost and fuel. I've got the turbos, manifold and some profiles for the compound turbo setup. It'll be a long and interesting story. First part is fitting the variable vane turbo as a single.

My offroad driving style is on the sensible side of silly. Just.

Unfortunately stronger crown and pinions are almost all lower geared. I don't want to leave 3.54 for now and keep stock tyre size (within reason) due to legality, garaging and the long onroad trips this vehicle does. If I get worried I'll put in a slipper block.

Now which axles and lockers? A 24spline locker and axles will fit my 10spline hubs and carrier with only minor work (air lines etc)?
Rover changed to different carrier bearings with the 24 spline centres. They have a larger bore so that the carrier could be made stronger.

I know that early 10 spline rangies had different carrier bearings to later 10 spline. I'm not sure of the year when this change occurred, but a dim memory says it was when the axle assembly changed from imperial to metric bolts.

You should confirm that the carrier bearings for 24 spline diffs will fit your diff before laying out your hard earned for 24 spline lockers.

Others on this forum may be able to clear up this matter.

[andrew e]

John, are you aware of anyone producing a stronger Rover crown wheel and pinion commercially?.

I know KAM do aftermarket crown wheel and pinions from 2.8:1 to 4.7:1. I dont know anyone runing these though, so i can't comment on strength.

Andy

[Dougal]

Rover changed to different carrier bearings with the 24 spline centres. They have a larger bore so that the carrier could be made stronger.

I know that early 10 spline rangies had different carrier bearings to later 10 spline. I'm not sure of the year when this change occurred, but a dim memory says it was when the axle assembly changed from imperial to metric bolts.

You should confirm that the carrier bearings for 24 spline diffs will fit your diff before laying out your hard earned for 24 spline lockers.

Others on this forum may be able to clear up this matter.

I know the older (early 80's) diffs had an extra filler plug in the neck. I wonder if deleting that corresponds to the change in carrier size?
My 85 is right on the imp/metric changover when they also swapped rear shocks from one forward/one back to both pointing forwards. I've got the later model (86+) chassis, I also have a disco rear axle housing, only change in threads was the spring seats (M10 vs 3/8").

[rovercare]

I know KAM do aftermarket crown wheel and pinions from 2.8:1 to 4.7:1. I dont know anyone runing these though, so i can't comment on strength.

Andy

I run KAM gears, ain't broken one yet:D

[Dougal]

I run KAM gears, ain't broken one yet:D

I run rover gears and haven't broken one yet.:D
Oh crap, I just jinxed it.:(

[1103.9TDI]

I know KAM do aftermarket crown wheel and pinions from 2.8:1 to 4.7:1. I dont know anyone runing these though, so i can't comment on strength.

Andy

Thanks Andy, I'll look them up.......

[rovercare]

I run rover gears and haven't broken one yet.:D
Oh crap, I just jinxed it.:(

To be honest, on those little tyres, you won't break the standard gears, you probably won't break them on 35's if set up correctly, its just the carriers, cross pins, sun and planetry gears and axles that are the main concern:)

[DRanged]

Have broken a standard 3.54-1 CWP running the 35,s but that was with Maxidrive hemispheres. I would imagine a standard hemisphere would not tolerate it as much.

Justin

[Dougal]

To be honest, on those little tyres, you won't break the standard gears, you probably won't break them on 35's if set up correctly, its just the carriers, cross pins, sun and planetry gears and axles that are the main concern:)

I hope you're right.
Because this thing has turned into a monster. The fuel is set to what should be stock and it takes close to 19psi boost (no intercooler yet) to keep EGT's under control.
Driving up mountain passes in 4th gear at 1500rpm is bliss.

Stronger axles were always on the cards, so now's the time to start planning.