Series Landies

[Mud_Bogger6]

Hi guys I'm not sure where to post this so I posted it here.:D:D


I was left a series land rover and I just need to know how to tell the difference between a series 1 and series 1a.:confused:

Cheers

[Phoenix]

I hope you mean 2 and 2a, because there is no 1a.

There are a few ways, but checking what year it was built is a good start. Pics also help ;)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi guys I'm not sure where to post this so I posted it here.:D:D

I was left a series land rover and I just need to know how to tell the difference between a series 1 and series 1a.:confused:

Cheers
Mick

As Phoenix suggests photos help however if you have the chassis number or car number from the aluminium ID plate punch the numbers into this site. http://www.classiclandrovers.com/?page=documents/vinlookup&

Diana

[olmate]

Yes - Congrats on getting your first Series Landy :D Would be good to see some pics.

I think I may have picked up my first Series 1, will know in a few days, I am very happy if it has come off :D:D:D

[JDNSW]

Hi guys I'm not sure where to post this so I posted it here.:D:D


I was left a series land rover and I just need to know how to tell the difference between a series 1 and series 1a.:confused:

Cheers

As the others have said - no such thing as a Series 1a.

Rough guide to distinguish Series -

If it has pedals that go through the floor, it is Series 1. They also have flat sides, although some military Series 2 & 3 do as well. There were a lot of changes during production, with major changes in 1951 and 1953, and earlier ones are much rarer and more collectible.

If it has a plastic dashboard with the instruments in front of the driver, it is a Series 3. Series 3 also have a plastic rather than metal grille.

This leaves Series 2 and 2a. They have an all metal dash with the instruments in the centre like the Series 1, pedals that hang down like the Series 3 and except for some (rare in Australia) military ones they have a distinct waist rather than completely flat sides, with the sides above the waist sloping in slightly. Also, unlike other Series, the windscreen hinges are not made as part of the bulkhead and windscreen frame right at the edge, but are separate parts in a bit from the edge.

The simplest way of distinguishing the 2 from the 2a is to look at the chassis number (on a plate in front of the gearlever on the bulkhead and on the LH rear spring hanger). If this has a letter after the number it is a 2a, although there were more changes during 2a production than between the 2 and 2a, so the distinction is not all that relevant.

In fact, there were more changes during production of any of the Series than between Series, whether 1, 2, 2a or 3.

All Series Landrovers up to about 1969 (during 2a) had the headlights in the radiator panel, after that in the mudguards, although some retained the old layout.

Since many of the parts are interchangeable between 2, 2a and 3, or for that matter late Series 1, it is often difficult to be certain what you are looking at, and ultimately the chassis number is the only certain identification.

John

[easo]

As the others have said - no such thing as a Series 1a.



John

Had that 'old chest nut' argument a few times.

Easo

[Lotz-A-Landies]

As the others have said - no such thing as a Series 1a. ... ...In fact, there were more changes during production of any of the Series than between Series, whether 1, 2, 2a or 3. ... John
John is correct, but to go one further there were more changes within the 80" models 1948 - 1953 than there were subsequent changes in all the later series vehicles.

Diana

[JDNSW]

John is correct, but to go one further there were more changes within the 80" models 1948 - 1953 than there were subsequent changes in all the later series vehicles.

Diana

Not sure that would be right if you added them all up (and I have not done so and have no intention of doing so!), but I agree with where you are coming from.

Despite (and in part because of) the unexpected success of the Landrover when introduced, Rover rapidly found a lot of improvements were indicated - some fixing problems that showed up in the field, but probably just as many to ease production in the light of the fact that they were making far more than anticipated, and they just went ahead and made them.

Rover was never averse to making improvements without changing the model designation, and it is difficult to see why they changed when they did. I suppose the styling change with the S2 was a real break, but the 88" Series 1 had a lot more in common with the 88" Series 2 than it did with the 80". And the only defining point for the change to 2a was the enlarged diesel engine.

And then there were transition models, such as the continuance of the 2litre petrol engine in the initial Series 2s, and the introduction of the all synchro gearbox in the last of the 2as.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not sure that would be right if you added them all up (and I have not done so and have no intention of doing so!), but I agree with where you are coming from. ...
John

It was a quote from someone I respect with knowledge on the subject and will have to find the source document.

That said, by the start of the 86" model the essential configuration was set for the next almost 20 years initially and in some respects for a long time after. Selectable 4WD
spring widths and lengths
Dash panel/firewall layout
Steering box mounting.

At the start of the Series 2 the body design was set and was essentially the same even today. It is why you can take the read door off a 1959 station wagon and fit it to a Defender 110 extreme.

The changes along the way have mostly been tinkering and incremental.

[Mud_Bogger6]

Thanks Guys, NM i don't have it yet, i'm waiting to the end of the year, when i've finished the School Certificate before I go. I will get the photos ASAP, which will probably be monday.

Cheers Guys

[JDNSW]

John

It was a quote from someone I respect with knowledge on the subject and will have to find the source document.

That said, by the start of the 86" model the essential configuration was set for the next almost 20 years initially and in some respects for a long time after. Selectable 4WD
spring widths and lengths
Dash panel/firewall layout
Steering box mounting.

At the start of the Series 2 the body design was set and was essentially the same even today. It is why you can take the read door off a 1959 station wagon and fit it to a Defender 110 extreme.

The changes along the way have mostly been tinkering and incremental.

Yes, I suppose it all depends on what you call a change - for example, is the gradual change to Unified Threads from BS threads a change for each bolt? Surely not, but as the change started with the Series 2 and was incomplete when the Series 3 ended, it is hardly only one change either! And all these incremental changes add up to an awful lot of changes.

But I have to agree that most of the substantial changes had been made by the time the 86 was introduced.

John

[k1000o]

Until I know, the Series IA doesn't exist. But in the Series I exist 80", 86" ...

Now some pics about them ... here in Colombia ...

This is 1.949 80"
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3899/seriei483il2.jpg
... here next to my 'diógenes' Serie IIA Santana (Spanish made) ...
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1329/seriei482ot7.jpg

This is 1.951 80", in restauration process ...
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7825/img0132cs4.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4857/img0141qb1.jpg
This is of the same year, but it is in a town near to Bogotá ...
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/822/serieimadrid1jl2.jpg
... it name is 'rené' :D:D:D

This is 1.955 86"
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/8505/guajirai89bj2.jpg
... betwen others Series ...
http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/3025/guajirai142ru4.jpg

See how the front change with the years ...

Obviously, the Series II, IIA and III are more big. But the Series II in the exterior is equal to the Serie IIA Santana (like mine), but in the English version the capot is different (little round). The Serie III Santana was born in 1.974.

Here in Colombia the majority Land Rover are Santana.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Did you ever see the documentary on the (1972) British Trans-America Expedition done with several Range Rovers in the early 1970's. Part way through the Darien Gap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_gap) the team went an bought a Series Land Rover to bash a track for the Range Rovers to follow.

I believe the Land Rover was a Santana. (Wrong too early for a Santana)

Now of course if the Pan American Highway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_gap#Pan-American_Highway was complete there would be no need for four wheel drive.

Diana

[JDNSW]

............

Obviously, the Series II, IIA and III are more big. But the Series II in the exterior is equal to the Serie IIA Santana (like mine), but in the English version the capot is different (little round). The Serie III Santana was born in 1.974.

Here in Colombia the majority Land Rover are Santana.

I don't recognise the word capot - but I'm guessing it is what in English would be "bonnet" ("Hood" in American), delving into my Latin from fifty years ago.

The rounded front bonnet is the "deluxe" bonnet, optional equipment from some time in Series 2a production and becoming standard equipment at least in some markets by late Series 3 time. For example, my 1970 2a did not have one, although it does now thanks to a 1981 donor.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The rounded front bonnet is the "deluxe" bonnet, optional equipment from some time in Series 2a production and becoming standard equipment at least in some markets by late Series 3 time... ...John
The deluxe bonnets were standard equipment on the 109 station wagons from their introduction in Series 2 and optional on other models. It sits higher than the standard bonnet. There are two types one without the spare wheel carrier and a second version with a recess for the spare wheel.

I have only seen the non-recessed type on the very early station wagons, so perhaps the recessed one was a later addition?

Diana

[JDNSW]

The deluxe bonnets were standard equipment on the 109 station wagons from their introduction in Series 2 and optional on other models. It sits higher than the standard bonnet. There are two types one without the spare wheel carrier and a second version with a recess for the spare wheel.

I have only seen the non-recessed type on the very early station wagons, so perhaps the recessed one was a later addition?

Diana

Interestingly, the Series 2a parts book (RTC9840CC) only lists the deluxe bonnet - either with (MRC2440) or without (MRC2479) the recess, with a remark about fittings "For earlier standard bonnet".

This suggests that the standard bonnet ended with the Series 2.

But certainly there were 2as supplied with the standard bonnet, the same as there were suffix Gs supplied with the close set headlights. (e.g. my suffix G on both counts, and the suffix A I owned in the sixties had a standard bonnet, and I have the remains of two other suffix B & C 2a 88s here with standard bonnets).

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Interestingly, the Series 2a parts book (RTC9840CC) only lists the deluxe bonnet - either with (MRC2440) or without (MRC2479) the recess, with a remark about fittings "For earlier standard bonnet".

This suggests that the standard bonnet ended with the Series 2. ...John
John

My Part number 608024 Jan 1972 Series 2/2a Parts Catalogue list all three bonnets. 337963 Standard bonnet (flat lip)
337951 Deluxe bonnet (rounded front lip no recess)
337957 Deluxe bonnet (rounded lip recessed) My 1971 109" UK Assembled suffix g outside headlamps hard top, had the 337951 bonnet and the PMC Aussie assembled series 3 109" my friend Bob has down at Warriewood has the 337963 bonnet (although it probably has a different part number by then). So it is interesting that this standard bonnet is not listed in the S3 parts book.

I wonder if it was a CKD thing for both Santana and PMC Enfield? We do know that PMC pressed and assembled their own panels, this may be one of them.

Diana

P.S. Of course someone could have changed the bonnet to the earlier type sometime during the Warriwood S3's life.

[JDNSW]

John

My Part number 608024 Jan 1972 Series 2/2a Parts Catalogue list all three bonnets. 337963 Standard bonnet (flat lip)
337951 Deluxe bonnet (rounded front lip no recess)
337957 Deluxe bonnet (rounded lip recessed) My 1971 109" UK Assembled suffix g outside headlamps hard top, had the 337951 bonnet and the PMC Aussie assembled series 3 109" my friend Bob has down at Warriewood has the 337963 bonnet (although it probably has a different part number by then). So it is interesting that this standard bonnet is not listed in the S3 parts book.

I wonder if it was a CKD thing for both Santana and PMC Enfield? We do know that PMC pressed and assembled their own panels, this may be one of them.

Diana

P.S. Of course someone could have changed the bonnet to the earlier type sometime during the Warriwood S3's life.

The catalogue I was quoting is the Series 2a one, but I just checked the S3 - it only lists the same numbers as the 2a one. I think the difference is that you have the 2/2a catalogue, I have the 2a one, and a late one (April 1987) at that.

But I think you may well be right about the locally pressed panels - if PMC were pressing the bonnets (and it is one of the obvious ones for them to do) it would explain the continuation of the standard bonnets, to be replaced by the deluxe initially only on the imported stationwagons, but I suspect later about 1980 they became a required part for pedestrian protection (which is probably where they came from originally). Probably never pressed locally. The same sort of reasoning would have applied to Santana - they would also have found the bonnet an obvious part to start making, and have been reluctant to change it.

John

[Roverray]

Hi Camilo
Great shots The grey one looks to be a later model going by the headligts ?
Maybe 1951?

[scrambler]

The catalogue I was quoting is the Series 2a one, but I just checked the S3 - it only lists the same numbers as the 2a one. I think the difference is that you have the 2/2a catalogue, I have the 2a one, and a late one (April 1987) at that.

But I think you may well be right about the locally pressed panels - if PMC were pressing the bonnets (and it is one of the obvious ones for them to do) it would explain the continuation of the standard bonnets, to be replaced by the deluxe initially only on the imported stationwagons, but I suspect later about 1980 they became a required part for pedestrian protection (which is probably where they came from originally). Probably never pressed locally. The same sort of reasoning would have applied to Santana - they would also have found the bonnet an obvious part to start making, and have been reluctant to change it.

John
The Australian Army Series 3's through to 1981 builds had the "standard" flat lip bonnet, though I noted that the famous "pink panthers" have a "deluxe" bonnet despite being military issue.

Seems to me to be some supportive evidence for the local pressing theory.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

But I think you may well be right about the locally pressed panels - if PMC were pressing the bonnets (and it is one of the obvious ones for them to do) it would explain the continuation of the standard bonnets, ... ... Probably never pressed locally. The same sort of reasoning would have applied to Santana - they would also have found the bonnet an obvious part to start making, and have been reluctant to change it. John
There is plenty of evidence of the pressed elements around the place coming out of the auction from the PMC Enfield plant in the 1980's.

I have a complete LHS panel from a 109" tub and also the panel from the transom. The side never painted and the transom assembled and painted the Stage 1 fawn colour, but never fitted to the "B" pillar/side panels

Diana

[k1000o]

Respect to the "Land Rover - Santana" you can see http://www.pruebas.pieldetoro.net/web/pruebas/ver.php?ID=710.10 (the problem is I don't know web site about "Santana" in English).

JDSNW: You're right the word is "hood". :blush::blush: (I'm learning your language)

Missus: The red Series I belong to a friend, but he's in Brasil right now. The restoration will continue when he back to Colombia, to his city "Neiva" (near to 600km to South). If do you want, I can post some pics.

Roverray: The grey? (I don't know what's grey, I suppose do you write gray) hmm ... the blue it's the mine; and the green is 1.951 in the documents, I haven't got the VIN no one those vehicles. But you give me a great idea ... I'll go if I can obtain them.

Au revoir!

[Michael2]

As already noted. changes were made to the SI. Thus perhaps the 1 and 1A remark.

Early Series I's had a small oval centre dash and the back of the doors was slanted. - RARE and worthy of a good restoration.

Later Series I's had a SII type dash (metal shelf) and the typical square door.

Prorotypes had brass instead of alloy or steel brake & clutch cylinders. - I remember reading of someone who found a prototype in the Sahara once, he recognised it by the brass and shipped it back to the UK for restoration.

[JDNSW]

........

JDSNW: You're right the word is "hood". :blush::blush: (I'm learning your language)

.......
Roverray: The grey? (I don't know what's grey, I suppose do you write gray) hmm ... the blue it's the mine; and the green is 1.951 in the documents, I haven't got the VIN no one those vehicles. But you give me a great idea ... I'll go if I can obtain them.

Au revoir!


As you are learning, there are several different dialects of English (I suppose Spanish is the same!). The two major ones are British English and American English - Australian English is a mixture of the two but closer to British English, and with some special differences.

In written English the differences show up mainly in the spelling and the choice of words, and you have noticed examples of both - "hood" for the engine cover is American English, in Britain or Australia we would say "bonnet"; The colour that is a mixture of white and black is "gray" in American English, but "grey" in Britain and Australia. But in general Australians have no problems reading American or British English.

John

[Mud_Bogger6]

Sorry guys and girls, didn't manage to pick up the pics, some other time

[k1000o]

Ough!! :blush::blush::blush::blush::blush:

[UncleHo]

G'day K1000o :)

Just to add further to your confusion, here are a few more :)



ENGLISH AMERICIAN AUSTRALIAN

Wing Fender Mudguard

Tilt Canvas Roof Hood

Bonnet Hood Bonnet

Luggage Boot Trunk Boot

Roof Lining Interior Lining Hood Lining


I hope that helps when talking to us Aussies at AULRO



cheers

[UncleHo]

G'day K1000o and Folks:)


I tried to space these out but my @##%&^^**@@ Computer won't do it :mad::mad::mad:

cheers

[k1000o]

Thank you man!!

I hope with the time, to learn and understand perfectly in the near future ... ;)

[p.k]

Gday , new to aulro , i have a question ......the rubber seals @ the front air vents on my 74 series 3 are the flat type . a friend has a 78 and his have a grove in the rubbers that the air vents close into ....makes a tight fit. Any idea where to get these . HAve tried british off road.
thanks ...paul

[wagoo]

Whilst on the subject of series body pressings. I had a series 2 LWB hardtop on which the roof side panels were made with 2 panels bolted vertically together at the half way point, instead of the normal one piece side panels.The roof had the normal twin sidewindows but no rear corner windows and appeared to be genuine, and was fitted to a red ex army series 2 fire engine cowl and chassis which was stolen from my property a few years ago. The vehicle that the roof was originally fitted to had one piece doors, that although quite rare, were beyond practical recovery.
Wagoo.

[JDNSW]

The rear small side windows on the back only appeared with the 2a (approx - my 1958 Series 2 did not have them, nor did my brother's 1959 Series 2). Never run across the vertically joined sides, but sounds as if it could have been an effort at making up a lwb top from pressings intended for a swb top, possibly done at the factory - Rover did do that sort of thing!

One piece doors were, from memory, specific to the Canadian market, but of course may have found their way into other markets - I am sure that, for example, anyone in Australia who wanted them specifically could get them if they were prepared to wait.

John

[UncleHo]

It wasn't a curved cornered steel hardtop by any chance ? ;)

[wagoo]

The rear small side windows on the back only appeared with the 2a (approx - my 1958 Series 2 did not have them, nor did my brother's 1959 Series 2). Never run across the vertically joined sides, but sounds as if it could have been an effort at making up a lwb top from pressings intended for a swb top, possibly done at the factory - Rover did do that sort of thing!

One piece doors were, from memory, specific to the Canadian market, but of course may have found their way into other markets - I am sure that, for example, anyone in Australia who wanted them specifically could get them if they were prepared to wait.

John

No the hardtop sides were equal length panels. not a swb side plus another panel. And no Uncle Ho. just a normal flat back hardtop lid.
Wagoo.