First Fire of the Season

[JDNSW]

Our first fire of the summer has started about an hour ago, about ten kilometres from here.

Our brigade plus the neighbouring one are on site, and I have not been called out this time - too far away.

The fire is apparently a load of hay, fire started by truck exhaust. With a temperature of 30C, humidity of 16% and winds of 15-20kts, you can't be too careful.

Just heard a report from the fire truck - they stopped it only 8 - 10 m from the truck, the truck is a write off, but is now out, the hay has been pushed off the remains of the truck and they are now extinguishing it, expected to take an hour or two.

John

[Broome Defender]

JD not good to hear. I'm with the Broome VF&R and from the start of the financial year we've had around 120 callouts. Lots of scrub fires, and a few huge scrub fires out of control. Alot of these deliberately lit. what's worse is the increasing number of MVAs. Good luck this season, hopefully it will start to rain here soon and the only thing we have to worry about are mulch piles self-igniting!

Dan

[Graz]

We are expecting a busy fire season. High fuel load and little controlled burns accomplished due wet weather.

Our shire isn't doing a verge side pickup this year so property owners will burning it themselves which will result in a significant increase of call outs in November.

Plenty of chances to try out our new 2.4:(

Hope you don't get too busy. Stay safe

Cheers

[JDNSW]

JD not good to hear. I'm with the Broome VF&R and from the start of the financial year we've had around 120 callouts. Lots of scrub fires, and a few huge scrub fires out of control. Alot of these deliberately lit. what's worse is the increasing number of MVAs. Good luck this season, hopefully it will start to rain here soon and the only thing we have to worry about are mulch piles self-igniting!

Dan

Reports on the radio this morning of haystacks self igniting all over the Central West. People have been cutting their crops for hay as they are not worth harvesting, and it seems a lot have not been left lie in the paddock long enough.

In this area we usually have very few deliberately lit fires, although they have happened. Most of our fires are lightning (including the big one last January) - and possible thunderstorms are forecast for Thursday.

John

[Roverray]

Same this way John, up at NQ property at moment and had call Sat night.Then had car burn out down road a bit.
Listened to Firecom Northern on radio yesterday and there were major fires around Townsville,
Can I appeal to all able bodied members to consider joining a rural or aux. fire brigade, either as active or support member.
We desperately need people to assist particiurally near towns and cities.
There is a very good training program which is pretty standard across Australia.
Anyone wanting info feel free to PM me.

[Bushie]

No fires around here at the moment but we've had a few in the last couple of weeks, and a S44 (bushfire emergency) in Wollongong last week.

Our activity today has been a substantial MVA on Heathcote road today (1 semi and 14 cars) occurred around 1300 today and our guys are just leaving (2120) RTA will be milling and resealing road tonight so not going to open for a few hours yet. As you can see a substantial resource commitment.


Council:Sutherland
Report:SR07102221933-7
Address:HEATHCOTE RD X FORUM DRIVE ENGADINE
Reported:22-Oct-2007 18:10
Class:0Fire
Status:Being Controlled
Size [ha]:0
Type of Fire:MVA
Resources:
Personnel: 29-RFS; Total-29
Tankers: 6-RFS; Total-6
Other: 3-RFS; Total-3
Personnel: 10-NSWFB; Total-10
Pumpers: 2-NSWFB; Total-2
Other: 1-NSWFB; Total-1
IMT/Div: 2-NSWFB; Total-2
Latest Fire Map:
District Name:SUTHERLAND FCC
Agency Name:NSW Police


Martyn

[Blknight.aus]

hold on....


haystacks can self ignite?


I did not know that....

whats the deal?

[Bushie]

hold on....


haystacks can self ignite?


I did not know that....

whats the deal?

Spontaneous combustion.

Organic materials with the right moisture content can generate significant amounts of heat (as they decompose) if the heat is not able to be released then the material catches fire. It can also happen in large mulch piles etc.

If you've got a compost heap carefully put your hand into the middle (be careful) you will feel the heat buildup.

I bet you've heard about cotton waste and linseed oil though - same process (just a bit quicker)


Martyn

[Blknight.aus]

the cotton and linseed oil thing I knew about but always assmed that it was a warning as most of the fires I know of involving those had other initiators and that just provided a dandy accelerant and cinder material.


I also knew that mulch piles got hot but they;re also fairly wet and was under the impression that the moisture content would be enough to stop it from flaming up.

[Slunnie]

There was an article just recently on the problem of Hay self combusting, typically the large square bales, followed by the large round ones. Apparently the biological process heats the bale, then if the temps reach about 77 degrees a chemical process starts also which further drives the temps up. Where there are tightly stacked bales which excludes oxygen, the temps can reach up to 170-280 degrees before spontaneous combusion. The higher the moisture content at bailing, the larger the bale size and the more denser the bale results in a bale with higher internal bail temperatures.

[Graeme]

There was an article just recently on the problem of Hay self combusting, typically the large square bales, followed by the large round ones. Apparently the biological process heats the bale, then if the temps reach about 77 degrees a chemical process starts also which further drives the temps up. Where there are tightly stacked bales which excludes oxygen, the temps can reach up to 170-280 degrees before spontaneous combusion. The higher the moisture content at bailing, the larger the bale size and the more denser the bale results in a bale with higher internal bail temperatures.
Best to leave the bales scattered in the paddock for a couple of weeks before stacking. OK for canola bales though, as they don't suffer the same problem.

[JDNSW]

Back late from listening to a lecture in town on Cosmology. Yes, haystacks can self ignite as noted above. Basically bacterial action, and hay being a very good heat insulator, the heat generated by the bacteria can raise the temperature enough to start a runaway chemical process that changes into actual burning as it gets close enough to the surface to have enough oxygen to actually burn. The secret is to let the hay get dry enough before baling it. You'd think that with the drought that would be easy enough, but I suspect that farmers have thought it was so dry it couldn't be a problem, but the hay being still a bit green, it was. Problem is if you let it get too dry, it breaks up when you try and bale it.

John

[Roverray]

the cotton and linseed oil thing I knew about but always assmed that it was a warning as most of the fires I know of involving those had other initiators and that just provided a dandy accelerant and cinder material.


I also knew that mulch piles got hot but they;re also fairly wet and was under the impression that the moisture content would be enough to stop it from flaming up.
This is the process Dave

A hay explosion occurs as a result of the following situation. Hay is stored at a relative humidity above 75% (all relative humidity figures in this article refer to the relative humidity inside the stack, not the relative humidity of the air outside the haystack). This initiates microbial action. This microbial action produces heat which raises the temperature of the stack to 76 C. If the relative humidity in the middle of the stack is below 95% then the microorganisms become inactive and the temperature of the stack drops. If the relative humidity in the middle of the stack is above 97% then the resultant heat of vaporisation of the water dissipates the heat rapidly and the temperature of the stack drops. This explains why very wet silage does not explode. However if the narrow window of 95%-97% relative humidity is obtained then the microorganisms continue to produce heat, which cannot escape, which raises the temperature. This temperature rise accelerates the chemical oxidation of the hay releasing more heat. An ever increasing rate of temperature rise is obtained, i.e. bang - one haystack fire. It is indeed an unfortunate fact that the microbial tolerance of temperature and the start of the chemical oxidation of hay overlap at around 76 C when the relative humidity is 95%-97%. A small window of opportunity (see figure 1) but one which never-the-less can occur.

This is from this article/site http://www.bioline.org.br/request?au97017

[Blknight.aus]

very cool... urmmm you know what i mean

[Treads]

Just spent pretty much the whole day with the RFS. Decent MVA rollover this morning on New England Hwy then large bushfire on Waterfall Way this afternoon. Got back at half eleven tonight. Can't believe how dry it is!

Rookie driver still managed to bog the truck though... :mad:

http://photos-946.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v140/246/21/528115946/n528115946_384731_6815.jpg
Headfire in trees, properties to left of Tanker (Pumper in attendance for property protection) and a last minute backburn in foreground conducted by Tanker crew

[JDNSW]

.........A small window of opportunity (see figure 1) but one which never-the-less can occur.

.....

It is actually much more likely to occur than it would seem from a first reading - the relative humidity through the bale of hay is likely to vary all over the place, and if it gets as high as 95% anywhere in the bale then the chances of fire become very high provided the hay in question is in a large enough and tight enough body to retain heat (heat not escaping as fast as it is generated) - in other words, a large bale very tightly packed, or more commonly a hay stack. This is why the hay is commonly left lying after being cut and before being baled, and why bales themselves are also often left in the paddock before being stacked.

If you are making silage, on the other hand, it becomes essential to ensure that humidity is above 97% almost everywhere in the bale and/or oxygen strictly excluded to prevent combustion.

John

[Bigbjorn]

What is the difference between "hay" and "silage"? On the open downs country in Western Queensland, Tambo-Blackall-Barcaldine-Muttaburra-Longreach-Winton, years ago, there was a practice of laying down stores of "native hay" in "silage pits" and covering with the earth removed to make the pit. This could be stored for many years against the inevitable major drought. I haven't heard of the practice for years and do not know if graziers still do this.

[JDNSW]

What is the difference between "hay" and "silage"? On the open downs country in Western Queensland, Tambo-Blackall-Barcaldine-Muttaburra-Longreach-Winton, years ago, there was a practice of laying down stores of "native hay" in "silage pits" and covering with the earth removed to make the pit. This could be stored for many years against the inevitable major drought. I haven't heard of the practice for years and do not know if graziers still do this.

Silage is basically fermented hay. It is stored wet and cut off from oxygen (or it will spoil or catch fire).

My next door neighbour has been feeding his stock for the last year from two large silage pits just outside my fence (now empty, drought still going), so at least in some places it is still an active practice. Not too sure how old the pits were, I don't remember them being filled, but I've been away often enough that it could have been done within the last few years while I was away.

John

[Bigbjorn]

Silage is basically fermented hay. It is stored wet and cut off from oxygen (or it will spoil or catch fire).

My next door neighbour has been feeding his stock for the last year from two large silage pits just outside my fence (now empty, drought still going), so at least in some places it is still an active practice. Not too sure how old the pits were, I don't remember them being filled, but I've been away often enough that it could have been done within the last few years while I was away.

John

Ah, hay is cabbage, and silage is sauerkraut?

[JDNSW]

Ah, hay is cabbage, and silage is sauerkraut?

Pretty much - good analogy. Strictly hay would be dried cabbage, but I haven't struck that as an item of food.

John

[Bigbjorn]

Pretty much - good analogy. Strictly hay would be dried cabbage, but I haven't struck that as an item of food.

John

Nor have I. It was a quick thought. Dried (dehydrated) mutton was pretty ordinary. There was a meatworks in Winton that did this for export. Tried it once just for the experience. The works operated during WWII into the 1950's. Don't know why it closed, probably the markets disappeared. Classic example of government waste. The works had been closed for some years when govt. money was made available to bring the works up to USDA standards to be able to export frozen meat. Promises were made about a reopening and, tales of jobs, jobs, jobs, and money falling from the skies were spread by the politicians. Housing Commission houses were built to accommodate the influx of workers. The works and houses stood empty for years. I think most of the houses were picked up amd moved to areas of need.

[JDNSW]

For those who are interested - I was over there yesterday retrieving the brigade's fast fill pump, and took a photo.

John

[George130]

Been talking to our local Fire RFS. I plan to join as my place is one of the worst around here. Most of the block is a time bomb waiting to go up! It's amazing in the last 4 years 20 trees have either died or fallen over and we still have more than any of our neighbors.

[JDNSW]

Been talking to our local Fire RFS. I plan to join as my place is one of the worst around here. Most of the block is a time bomb waiting to go up! It's amazing in the last 4 years 20 trees have either died or fallen over and we still have more than any of our neighbors.

I can only encourage you. I suspect your area has a lot larger brigade than ours - the area covered by our brigade has only fourteen properties - by the time you subtract absentee owners and octogenarians, it doesn't leave a lot of able bodied firefighters. And although the area of private land covered is only about 30,000ha, it adjoins the former Goonoo state forest, now a State conservation area. Your brigade would be responsible for a lot more houses I expect as the area is more densely populated, but this should mean more people available for volunteering.

Go for it.

John

[George130]

I can only encourage you. I suspect your area has a lot larger brigade than ours - the area covered by our brigade has only fourteen properties - by the time you subtract absentee owners and octogenarians, it doesn't leave a lot of able bodied firefighters. And although the area of private land covered is only about 30,000ha, it adjoins the former Goonoo state forest, now a State conservation area. Your brigade would be responsible for a lot more houses I expect as the area is more densely populated, but this should mean more people available for volunteering.

Go for it.

John
Yea a lot of properties but not a lot of volunteers.

[Bushie]

One click and look what happens - how long has the thanks button been around???


Martyn

[George130]

One click and look what happens - how long has the thanks button been around???


Martyn
It's brand new:D

[JDNSW]

Yea a lot of properties but not a lot of volunteers.

Over the last few years the RFS seems to be discouraging volunteers (I'm sure its not intentional) with all sorts of red tape, both to do with being a volunteer and with actually fighting fires. One of the latest is that all new volunteers need a police check. While this is perhaps indicated by a very few dubious characters who have been volunteers in the past, one has to wonder whether the benefit (and how many offenders had a previous record anyway?) of it may not be outweighed by the number of volunteers whom it has discouraged from volunteering, let alone the more useful things that could be done with the time and money spent checking up on the non-existent police records of nearly all volunteers.

Another thing that has been criticised on a number of occasions is the tendency to centralise control of large fires and ignore local knowledge.

Don't get me wrong - the quality of firefighting has improved markedly in the last few years (so has the amount of money spent on it), but the proportion and status of volunteers has decreased at the same time, and if this keeps up, we won't have a rural fire service in ten years.

John

[George130]

Over the last few years the RFS seems to be discouraging volunteers (I'm sure its not intentional) with all sorts of red tape, both to do with being a volunteer and with actually fighting fires. One of the latest is that all new volunteers need a police check. While this is perhaps indicated by a very few dubious characters who have been volunteers in the past, one has to wonder whether the benefit (and how many offenders had a previous record anyway?) of it may not be outweighed by the number of volunteers whom it has discouraged from volunteering, let alone the more useful things that could be done with the time and money spent checking up on the non-existent police records of nearly all volunteers.

Another thing that has been criticised on a number of occasions is the tendency to centralise control of large fires and ignore local knowledge.

Don't get me wrong - the quality of firefighting has improved markedly in the last few years (so has the amount of money spent on it), but the proportion and status of volunteers has decreased at the same time, and if this keeps up, we won't have a rural fire service in ten years.

John
Police check doesn't worry me. I have had worse for work. We are also luck as the main control center is located in Yass.

[Treads]

NSW RFS Police checks do take time (about 21 days) to process; however the biggest problem we're having now is running a Basic Firefighter course quickly enough after a member joins the brigade. Often there can be a 2-3 month wait for a course if a person joins near the fire season.

We are in the middle of some decent fires at the moment, but the instructing team is having to run a last minute BF course over 3 weekday nights + 1 weekend on top of this. The aim of which is simply to 'catch' the 15 or so new members of the zone before they lose interest over the coming season.

I got home at 6pm tonight after chewing smoke all day to have to instruct for 3 hours on the course ;)
As long as we get some good firefighters it's all worth it.

http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v140/246/21/528115946/n528115946_388340_7907.jpg
Todays' operations East of Armidale

[mittadisco]

......but the proportion and status of volunteers has decreased at the same time, and if this keeps up, we won't have a rural fire service in ten years.

John


That statement could cut across a raft of volunteer organisations. We live in a selfish society.

[JDNSW]

That statement could cut across a raft of volunteer organisations. We live in a selfish society.

That is part of it, but there are other factors as well, apart from the red tape I mentioned. We live in an ageing society - for example, the average age of farmers in this state is 59 (that is the average - just think about it for a moment!) and we also have the highest average working hours since WW2, which doesn't leave a lot of time for volunteering, so that any disencouragement to volunteer should be (but isn't) carefully weighed before being introduced.

John

[Roverray]

Forget about the admin side of it, consider joining as a way of repaying the community for your enjoyable use of the bush for your hobby. In the process you will learn new skills which are now accredited nationally and I am sure you will also meet some property owners which will lead to other benifits.
If you are a Gov employee you can usually be released for duty on full pay.
As with the Canberra fires (and the current US fires) you dont have to live in the bush to be burned out by a so called bush fire.
People tend to have short memories, but I can assure you when the flames are lapping I have not met anyone not happy to see the crew in the bright Yellows arrive.