Stage 1/county./defender/perentine brake warning

[Blknight.aus]

If your drum braked rear axle is burning up brake shoes or doesnt seem to be working correctly I have a warning for you, This is evident from a job Ive been working on and researching most of this week.. I start the actual work on it on monday and Will be taking pics of the issue....

If you have non genuine bonded brake shoes fitted they may be installed incorrectly, If you have genuine shoes they may be fitted correctly but the backing plate might be installed incorrectly. You can even have both.

Theres a couple of checks that are seat of the pants but identify the shoe fitment issue.


on a loose surface brake hard at full speed in 1st gear and reverse. If the rear axle locks easier in reverse than forwards you might have the issue Im going to get into later.

to check the backing plate measure the distance from the closest edge of the snail cam adjusting bolt to the closest point of the nearest slave cylinder mounting stud (the threaded bit not the nut iself)

the rear snail cam measurement should be about 90 or so mm and the front 100 or there abouts. The exact number is not terribly important But the longest distance should be the one on the front side of the rear axle.

more to follow, with pics.

[defenderbilby]

:o:o I didn't notice that difference with the backing plates so very concerned that I have them the right/wrong way round. The shoes should be fitted with the flat leading edge depending on rotation (didn't explain that well so will wait for your photos).
Thanks for this post.
David.

[tony]

dave correct me if I'm wrong here (been a long time)

but ar'nt the backing plates liped.....so how can you

get em the wrong way round...:(:(

T

[BRINDO75]

ill also be watching this thread as im constantly adjusting the rear brakes, on my county ( i thought it was just crappy drums)

[sclarke]

Waiting Waiting, cant wait... i'll convert to Disc

[Blknight.aus]

dave correct me if I'm wrong here (been a long time)

but ar'nt the backing plates liped.....so how can you

get em the wrong way round...:(:(

T


simple put the left one on the right hand side and the right one on the left hand side....

I'd torn my hair out for a day and a bit trying to nut out a "brakes not ok" result on a test, thought I had it beat when I found that the rear shoes were at about 50% and one drum was right on the limit and another was out of round by about 8 tho and oversize on the extended part of its oval. as I was to find out ... dunt douhhhhh sorry, survey says "no, you have a lot more work to do yet"

Replacing the shoes something didnt look right so it was time to hit the books, make about 4000000 phone calls trying to ascertain the actual setup, measure 12 differnt rover setups and check the result of a different similar job EMEI's make the assumption that the backing plates are on the correct way...

I can now officialy say

Landrover Rear Drum Brakes? Dont tell me landrover rear drum Brake I KNOW landrover rear drum brakes......

this all came to light over a broken front axle.....

The biggest problem I had was the replacement shoes were of the cheapy, generic equally bonded type NOT as a pair of leading and trailing shoes and the vehicles brakes had been fitted corectly inside the drum so when i marked them for position, did my comparison and installed the cheapy shoes Naturally they were in incorrectly... There is an easy fix IF you happen to come across these shoes when you have the backing plates on the wrong way around BUT I dont recomend it.


The EASY fix... (but dont do it unless your in the field and dont have the gear on hand to sort this properly IF you wind up in this situation give yourself a headbutt for not doing your checks prior to departure and finding your nearly worn out brake shoes/drums)

IF you find your backing plates on the wrong way around And youve got the cheapy shoes put the cheapy shoes on backwards as in left on right and right on left that will line up the snail cams and the pins on the shoes correctly and the brakes will work as normal... Once you have the shoes in this postion but not fitted up (you do test fit your parts before assembly where practical right?) carefully sand/grind a taper about 1/4 of an inch wide across the top edge of the brake lining that extends to about 1/2-2/3 of the depth of the lining. Ideally you do this on all 4 edges But I dont unless Im having fitment issues with sliding the drum over the shoes.

The reason I dont is the lining dust is potentially a health hazard and your not supposed to wet grind the shoes, Dont ask me why I would have thought you could have but the manufacturer says dont.

Thats just a heads up for those who know what they are looking for, For those who dont, Dont panic (yay weekly HHGTTG quote) the epic battle of David and The landrover rear drum brakes complete with pics should be in on monday evening.

[BRINDO75]

Waiting Waiting, cant wait... i'll convert to Disc


im looking already, ill race ya.

[Blknight.aus]

Here it comes. photos loadin in photobucket as I type....

first up


WARNING......

This stuff messes with the following

Wheel nuts
Brake assemblies
Brake hydraulics
Wheel bearings
stub axle assemblies


If the thought of any of that not being right or is daunting to you you probabley shouldnt go past the checks I'll identify in this post This is not an absolute how to and the assumptions that you know how to handle your spanners ,drive a torque wrench support the rear of the vehicle while the wheels and brakes are off have all been made. Any frell ups with any of the above items have the potential to get you dead, or worse.

You do any or all of this and its all at your own risk, Ive done what I can to make sure its as repeatable as possable but you will encounter some differences and thats where your going to need to rely on your own experience. If you dont have any of your own, borrow someone else's (ask questions yeah?)


End of warning

Since this stuff is safety related Im not apologising for the size of the images, If I needed the entire storage ability of the internet to get this across Ida used it.

Still with me here?

ok so heres how to check for the lefted right and righted left brake backing plates... Ive painted the studs white to make them stand out and in the front picture the ruler is partially obscuring the cam bolt.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/299.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/300.jpg

rotate the cam bolt untill one of the faces is perpendicualr to the line from the stud that mounts the slave cylinder then measure from the nearest edge of the stud to the nearest edge of the bolt.

The pics show it as the wrong way around the longer distance should be towards the front of the plate, about 100mm, and the shorter (90mm) to the rear.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/301.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/302.jpg

they are a bit blurry but you can just make out the cam through the inspection slots on the shoe next to the cam pins.

these two pics show how the cams dont quite do their job when the shoe/backing plate is not assembled correctly

heres how they should look
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/303.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/304.jpg

Now im only holding them in place in those pics but you can see the alignment is much better.

All Ive done here is flip the shoes around 180 keeping the cam pins (which protrude the same distance on both sides of the spine of the shoe) at the top. If you have and want to use the generic shoes with no lead/trail install your springs now, put the drum and wheel back on then adjust the brakes and you are done

just for fun, imagine that I hadnt written left + right on the plates could you have picked the right ones?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/11.jpg

[Blknight.aus]

Ok now the inital check you can do with the wheels on the ground, the secondary bit, (eyeing the cam to pins) can be done with the wheel off, the drum removed and the axle on a stand doing one side at a time. But if you have the problem you cant go anyfurther without getting some stuff and getting the whole back end off of the ground.

ok so assuming youve already got the stands and the back ends up off of the ground your going to need the following consumables


500ml brake fluid
500ml diff oil
loctite 271
grease
rags
4 8mm spring washers (brake slave locating bolts)
2x drive flange gaskets
2x hub bearing locking washers
(possabley) 2x axle to stub axle gaskets
a set of brake shoes


Youl need the following tools

wheel brace (I used a rattle gun and a 27mm socket)
14/17mm socket (for the drive flange bolts)
52mm socket (for the wheel bearing nuts)
2x long handled flat blade square shank screwdrivers
13mm 3/8th drive socket and ratchet (brake slave removal)
11+ 13mm pipe spanners (for brake line removal and bleed nipple)
brake hose clamp
17mm ring spanner + socket +ratchet
torque wrench for 10nm and 50nm
wire brush (to clean up the backing plate)
hammer and punch (to fold over the new lock washers)


heres some I prepared earlier

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/294.jpg

check out your shoes make sure they look like the shoes in the middle of this pic

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/295.jpg

measure the top edge of the shoes from the lip where it becomes full width after the taper thusly

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/296.jpg

35mm for the front (leading) shoe and

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/297.jpg

14mm for the trailing

This pic shows the generic shoes (outer most set) that have no lead or trail setup.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/298.jpg

The more observant of you will notice the white marks on the new (but wrong) shoes these are the holes the springs go into. I did a comparative mark up before I fitted them the first time around.

[Blknight.aus]

Ok for one side only (the other side is exactly the same but on the other side of the vehicle)

First off remove the shoes by levering the bottom edge of one shoe out of the anchor and letting it collapse in then do the same for the other shoe on the bottom then do the tops be carefull not to pinch the cover seal on the slave cylinder odds are that one edge of the spring will come out of its own accord but if it doesnt work one spring out then remove the lot (mark the spring holes now) you should now have something like this in front of you

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/287.jpg

now pull the drive flange off ( I pulled the axles out as Id run out of tool tags to tag off the circlip pliers)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/288.jpg

then remove the locknuts then pull the drive hub off.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/289.jpg

If you need a howto on this at this point you probabley shouldnt be messing with your brakes BUT if you need a howto on that PM me and I'll get round to one.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/290.jpg

see the hub sitting on the spare tyre there? no? good since your going to reuse all of it in one shot keep all the crap and corruption out of it at all costs, get dust grit or grime in it and you have to strip that down and repack the bearings AND replace the seals. (but if you havent done that in over 100K Km you probabley should)

clamp the brake line

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/291.jpg

then undo the brake line from the cylinder then undo the 2 nuts that mount it to the plate carefully remove it without letting it come apart.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/292.jpg

now undo the 6 17mm bolts that hold the backing plate and stub axle onto the axle housing proper and you should wind up with (after doing both sides)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/293.jpg

That. It might pay to replace the stub axle gasket while your here, its a cheap part and since if your backingplate has rust-tited itself to the stub its going to take it off anyway its cheap insurnace. (like the one on the right of the image.

from here its a case of swap the backing plates only left to right then reassemlble the rest in reverse order.

The next link deals with that and has the torque settings.

[Blknight.aus]

read the above post backwards but put the plates on the other side.... :p

oh ok some details....Scrub everything clean with the wire brush and clean the debry off of any surfaces that should be clean.

mount the stub axle + plate and put in 3 bolts do them up finger tight

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/283.jpg

apply 271 to the 3 remaining bolts and do them up, then undo and locktite the first 3 bolts and do them up as well 50ftlb is the correct torque setting..

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/284.jpg

without compressing the slave cylider install that, loosely put in the brake pipe fitting then the 2 mounting nuts with new split washers and locktite 271, 15ftlb for the torque setting get both sides the same then slowly squeeze the pistons together and fluid will leak out the union fitting, nip that up and repeat on the other side.

Fit the springs to the shoes and then the shoes to the plate check your alignment now.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/285.jpg

If everything is correct paint a line onto all the nuts and bolts youve installed thus far, be careful to make sure that the paint bridges beweetn all the joints so that is is on consistant colour. ITs a crack appearing in this paint tat will alert you to stuff coming loose. (this pic doesnt show the slave cyl in place that pic didnt work out very well)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/286.jpg

install the hub. I use the following method for getting the bearing preload correct


slide it all together + seat the outer seal/bearing protection washer
tighten the inner nut to 50ftlb
rotate the hub in both directions 3 full turns
retension to 50 ftlb
spin once more and recheck 50ftlb
back off 90-180 degrees
tension up to 10nm
install the lock washer
tighten up out nut to 50ftlb
recheck hub rotation
fold over lock washer


once thats done insert the hub drive flange and alxe with its new gasket and tighten those bolts up, 50-70ftlb Depending on what type of bolt you have.

put the drum on, the screws back in and put the wheel on then its time to bleed and adjust

once the brakes are bleed spin the wheels by hand and have someone stomp the brakes to center the shoes then adjust up the cam bolts till the shoes just start to drag then back it off a notch (you'll feel it) once youve gotten all 4 shoes about the same put the vehcile down give it some hard braking action in forwards and reverse then redo the adjustment.

Thats it Done.

[Davo]

Wow! Great description! And much appreciated, too.

I take it those extra bits fitted to the outside of the backplates are mudshields, so: 1) do they work? and 2) can you get them anywhere?

[Blknight.aus]

standard on the perentines and hit and miss on county defenders, AFAIK the stage ones used the standard SIII LWB rear drum setup.

I'll get the stock number if and when I get chance but life is chaotic ATM, if I forget hit me up later.

[UncleHo]

G'day Blknight.aus :)

G'day Dave, the rear drum brake backing plates are indeed "Handed" as are the Shoes & they are also Front & Rear (Leading & Trailing):( the difference is in the location of the snail Cams and the shoes should have staggered pins, on all rear 11" rear drums from Series 2 through to 110 the backing plates have a Part No stamped on them, 531888 = RHside and 531889 = LHside if there are later part Nos they will also be Even = Right & Odd = Left :) hope that is of some help, I have lost count of the number of times I have had to do Backing Plate/Shoe swaps to get vehicles through RWCs after they were "Done-up" by Brake Specialists:( it can be very frustrating.

cheers

[Blknight.aus]

G'day Blknight.aus :)

G'day Dave, the rear drum brake backing plates are indeed "Handed" as are the Shoes & they are also Front & Rear (Leading & Trailing):( the difference is in the location of the snail Cams and the shoes should have staggered pins, on all rear 11" rear drums from Series 2 through to 110 the backing plates have a Part No stamped on them, 531888 = RHside and 531889 = LHside if there are later part Nos they will also be Even = Right & Odd = Left :) hope that is of some help, I have lost count of the number of times I have had to do Backing Plate/Shoe swaps to get vehicles through RWCs after they were "Done-up" by Brake Specialists:( it can be very frustrating.

cheers

right up untill you dont have a number stamped on them.. the replacement ones came in yesterday... they have numbers, On STICKERS...

[mark2]

Thanks Dave - I appreciate the time you've put into this thread.

Another off-topic question - I noticed in the pics the 110 is on a 2 post hoist. What are the standard army hoist pad positioning points for a 110?

I put the pads under the radius arm locating points - seems to be the most stable place. I do find that when its lifted like this, the doors are hard to open - very stiff on the catches and it returns to normal on the ground. I find this a bit strange as its lifting from the chassis and not really twisting anything - does this happen to the Perenties as well?

[Blknight.aus]

I usually use the rear mount for the trailing arm on the back axle and the pad on the chassis where the crossmember just in front of the front radius amrs join in, the pad grabs the chassis and a little bit of the radius arm but works very well.

Ive only had a problem with the door sticking on one vehicle and its been repaired after a prang.

Remind me when I get back from course and I'll get pics of one on a hoist for you.

[UncleHo]

G'day Blknight.aus:)

That's when you grab the stamps and belt in LR/R and RH/R you should be able to find some stamps some where, it might help a spanner monkey out in the sticks at a later date;)

cheers

[Black Bill]

G'day Blknight.aus :)
Thanks very much for the time and effort put into a usefull post. Bill.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Isn't it sad that those brakes have been fitted to Land Rovers since the early 1960's (the first SII 109s had 11" brakes with a bottom adjuster) and yet the correct way to set them up has never appeared in a Land Rover workshop manual. :mad: :mad:

The only place it seems to be documented is in a Girling manual.

[drifter]

Excellent thread - thanks