3.9L V8 on heat - is this normal?

[Offender90]

You can boil eggs on the block of my V8.

The temperature gauge shows off the charts (beyond red), but I've already established that it's not working properly. I think its missing a proper earthing somewhere. The fuel gauge's not too crash hot either, but that's another story alltogether (left me dry today, and was still showing 1/4 tank!!!).

What I want to know from those in the know, is how hot sould the engine block be, and is this normal. I don't have any sophisticated thermometers that could measure the temperature, but I'd say well over 100, judging by the spit test.

The cooling system's under pressure, and seems to work well, perhaps too well. The radiator inlet side is close to boiling point, but the return side is cool ehough to put your hand on for a few seconds without excruciating pain. Pardon the lack of technical lingo, but this is all I could observe.

I can verify the thermostat is opening (by the super hot radiator inlet), and that the engine block (next to the left cylinder bank is well in excess of 100 degrees Celsius (spitting on it produces almost instant sizzle)

Now I'm thinking either the radiator is working super-well or its completely blocked. It would be real embarassing for the mechanic (who shall for now remain nameless) if it was blocked, as it was very recently "flushed out" and supposedly very clean.

Can anyone tell me if the above signs would be considered "normal" or am I right to be paranoid?

[4bee]

Fwiw, the Earth is on the rear of the pass. side bank & faces the firewall. A bit tricky to get at, but can be done.

[mcrover]

Id be suspect of the water pump as the hoses shouldnt be much different temps from eachother.

The water temp should be around the 90 deg C in normal operation but this can change with different radiator cap pressures and not so much at operating temp but thermostats.

The thermostat may not be opening enough or could be semi blocked by rust and gunk or water pump inlet/outlet the same.

You really need to put a decent guage on it and find out what it's getting to as these engines dont like heat being Alloy blocks and cast sleeves.

Do a bit of poking around, replace the thermostat and check water pump flow but make sure you bleed the cooling system to avoid getting air locks.

It does sound hot but without putting a guage on it you wont know for sure.

[Offender90]

Fwiw, the Earth is on the rear of the pass. side bank & faces the firewall. A bit tricky to get at, but can be done.

Yeah thanx,

Have been reluctant to dig through the wiring...

...now I have no excuse...

...at the very least I know where to dig :)

[Offender90]

Id be suspect of the water pump as the hoses shouldnt be much different temps from eachother.

The water temp should be around the 90 deg C in normal operation but this can change with different radiator cap pressures and not so much at operating temp but thermostats.

The thermostat may not be opening enough or could be semi blocked by rust and gunk or water pump inlet/outlet the same.

You really need to put a decent guage on it and find out what it's getting to as these engines dont like heat being Alloy blocks and cast sleeves.

Do a bit of poking around, replace the thermostat and check water pump flow but make sure you bleed the cooling system to avoid getting air locks.

It does sound hot but without putting a guage on it you wont know for sure.

How would I test for flow, or aternatively, what should I look for in a faulty water pump. Everything looks and sounds normal.

cheers

[GuyG]

I do not know what temp it should be, but below is what happenned to mine due to excessive heat. Not sure whether by me, but more than likely the previous owner - the head had been off before, but i don't think they were aware that the block had lost its hardness so it was only a matter of time before it went pear shaped again - refer below

if your system is under very high pressure, you may have a blown head gasket - my engine is in the process of being rebuilt due to this, problem is if it gets too hot you actually destroy the motor, that is the aluminium can loose its hardness

Have you had any issue with loosing water? And if the motor has gotten hot then it is highly likely that the radiator will be full again from all the stuff out of the motor.

The motor in mine had been tuned and the advice i was given is that its within tolerances, but i didn't think it was right, so they checked it again - same result - within tolerances. Head Gasket at no 8 was leaking into the cylinder causing the compression to be greater rather than less therefore the computer didn't picked this up. 5 liners had movement, 9 valves weren't sealing, cam stuffed and anything alloy was warped:mad:

So end result of mine, new pistons, new cam....oh and the block had to be heat treated twice to get back to the correct hardness

Will get it back on the road sometime, hopefully before xmas cause were going to Fraser:)

[rovercare]

Is it keeping water?? or it runs hot, then spews out from the cap, when switched off or still running?

[mcrover]

How would I test for flow, or aternatively, what should I look for in a faulty water pump. Everything looks and sounds normal.

cheers
When you take the thermostat out is the best time to do it, whack the cover back on and top up with water, up to the top of the rad core, then run the engine and see if the water flows fairly fast or not.

That is crude but gives you an idea but not much, the only other way I have seen and used was a special test kit that has a site glass in it so you can see if the water is flowing and also has test ports on it to check pressure and temp etc.

Im not entirely sure where it came from, it may have been Snap on or Wurth as it was very good quality.



But the main thing is if there is a big difference between top and bottom hose temps

[barney]

in my v8 110, i had water pump problems, pin hole in the rear of the pump housing which is also the timing cover. when i took the pump off, i found some of the vanes of the pump were eaten away by corrosion. this can happen to different degrees.
BTW, i fixed the hole by rebuilding the rear face of the pump housing with devcon, for those that don't know, it is a metalised epoxy compound which is great for high temp applications. this not only fixed the hole, but because it was "machined" while soft by turning the pump by hand, the tolerance between the pump impeller and the pump face was greatly improved, and made the pump much more efficient.
later, when i was fitting my 4L, we put a new radiator in and for some reason, we'd left the thermostat out. we found that the cooling system was working so well that without the thermostat, the engine wouldn't reach a happy operating temp.

[Offender90]

The coolant stays in all the time, it doesn't boil through, which would make me think it doesn't reach its boiling temperature, which I'm told is 121degree Celsius at 15psi... I guess that's the good news.

Also, the engine must be somewhere between 100 and 121, and given that it doesn't go above 121, it would imply that the radiator is cooling... but how to explain the noticeable difference in inlet to outlet temperatures of the radiator, especially given it was flushed only last week?

The water pump has ben changed by the previous owner the week before I bought it (I've witnessed him changing it. He did mention he had to rethread the pump (or the block) to fit the pump??).

Is it possible that he installed a wrong pump, or that it was installed it wrongly, even though it doesn't leak and doesn't make strange noises, even when revved hard?

Any thoughts?

Cheers

[JDNSW]

Can't help on V8s overheating, as I have never owned one. But if the temperature and fuel gauges are both over reading, it strongly suggests that there is a problem with the instrument earth, particularly if the readings change with engine rpm and as you switch lights on and off (with a lag as the gauges are slow response).

John

[muddydigger]

Gday, The first thing to do is sort out the temp guage, to assitain just what the temp is. Doest the car go hot moving or standing still? As has been said V8 dont like heat nad youll need to sort it ASAP. take the Radiator of and sent it to a Radiator repairers where they can take the side tanks off and put rods init to clean the crap out of it. A reverse flush wont do this. Replace the thermostat, with a new one and the cap. Ensure the fan is working right and ensure no air pockets are in the system. The Thermostat should open about 83 degrees.

[Quiggers]

If it was me:

I'd take out the thermostat and run it for a while and see what happens.

Cook some water in a pan over the stove, get it up to 85c with the thermostat in from cold. See if the thermostat is working...

Some time ago I had a few probs re this issue.

The thermostat was no good, the pipes to the heater and the heater itself, were no good, and one of the main hoses from the rad (the top one) collapsed under use, which was weird...

I replaced the main hoses, terminated (prior to) the heater, got a new t'stat and have been okay since...

Good luck.

Cheers, GQ

[Offender90]

Gday, The first thing to do is sort out the temp guage, to assitain just what the temp is. Doest the car go hot moving or standing still? As has been said V8 dont like heat nad youll need to sort it ASAP. take the Radiator of and sent it to a Radiator repairers where they can take the side tanks off and put rods init to clean the crap out of it. A reverse flush wont do this. Replace the thermostat, with a new one and the cap. Ensure the fan is working right and ensure no air pockets are in the system. The Thermostat should open about 83 degrees.

Hi,

I agree with you that I have to get the temperature gauge sorted first. The radiator has been taken out (with the sidetank off) last week. I'm assuming the point of taking the sidetank off was to clean it with a rod. The thermostat was also replaced at the same time. I'm certain the thermostat is opening up, as for no air pockets... I can guarantee there aren't any, but it's been done by a reputable mechanic who only does land rovers.

The only things I can think of is a blocked radiator (somehow), due to the high difference in radiator inlet and outlet temperatures, or that the pump isn't working very well.

However, given that I have driven it for some 10kms while it was "hot" (above 100 degrees at the radiator), and it hadn't cooked, I would say that it's either

a.) not fully blocked, or
b.) the water pump does work.

I'll attempt to sort out the temperature gauge, and then I'll take it to the mechanic for him to sort out. It really should have been picked up in the first place, especially since I pointed out that it was getting hot. Worst of all is that I was assured it was cooling just fine, and that everything had ben done.

Nehow, once he finds out what was wrong with it, I'll post on here.

Cheers

Bojan

[Quiggers]

Offender, sometimes and not often, sporadically, when I leave here, within about 5 mins, my temp gauge goes to about 3/4s, which is a bit of a worry...then it settles back to about 3/8s... I assume this is due to the t'stat not behaving....

...just a thought.

GQ

[Offender90]

OK,

Update on the overheating problems... they're getting sorted now...

...replacing temperature gauge and sender unit with VDO ones. Mine is the older type 5/8 UNF thread, so I need an adapter as well.

The overheating seems to have been caused by an air lock in the radiator, that the mechanic unknowingly left after filling the radiator fluid. A series of unfortunate events led the mechanic to replace the 82 degre thermostat with an 88 degree thermostat, and more importantly, to add an additional hose that was supposed to help deliver coolant to the top of the engine. The V8 wasn't factory fitted, so the cooling system was "wired" differently from standard.

The mechanic didn't pick up on this, so when he refilled the coolant, he left a great big air lock in the radiator. What was worse, I noticed it "heating up" but he convinced me that it was just the gauge and assured me all was OK, (apparently a common fault with the temp gauges - Lucas gauge... need I say more!)

Nehow, for the next two hours or so, the engine was going in and out of the redline with me thinking that it was all fine :cry: I wasn't a happy chappy when I pulled over "just to make sure" and found the coolant boiling over out of the expansion tank! :angry2:

As luck would have it, the head gasket seems intact, and the fact that the temperature gauge was working the entire time would mean that there was still water in the engine. So fingers crossed, a very lucky escape, as I've just been alerted to the nightmares that can result from a rover V8 overheating.

Several different mechanics I've spoken to seem to think that it'll most likely be OK. Fingers crossed they're right.

[duncanw]

unless its synthetic I would change your oil now its fixed

so this means you can come on the next outing ??? :arms:

[Davo]

Is this carbied? If so, you need that little hose to the manifold between the carbies so stop airlocks.

Personally, I'd replace the rad with a new one. On my SIIA with the 2.25 petrol, cooling was a big problem above about 35c, even after I'd flushed the rad. A new water pump and radiator fixed it.

Typical. :(

[PhilipA]

Offender, sometimes and not often, sporadically, when I leave here, within about 5 mins, my temp gauge goes to about 3/4s, which is a bit of a worry...then it settles back to about 3/8s... I assume this is due to the t'stat not behaving....

Sorry to be sanctimonious, but a thermostat is about $15. Head gaskets or slipped sleeve a little more. It WILL fail soon.


The overheating seems to have been caused by an air lock in the radiator, that the mechanic unknowingly left after filling the radiator fluid. A series of unfortunate events led the mechanic to replace the 82 degre thermostat with an 88 degree thermostat

3.9s are supposed to have an 88C thermostat. There is no harm in that, even if you have carbs on it. Do you?
If so you need the extra hose to the inlet manifold from the RH header tank. AFAIR no v8s come with 82c. they are just fitted by mechanics to give more headroom to overheat, which is pretty simplistic.
Regards Philip A

[Offender90]

3.9s are supposed to have an 88C thermostat. There is no harm in that, even if you have carbs on it. Do you?
If so you need the extra hose to the inlet manifold from the RH header tank. AFAIR no v8s come with 82c. they are just fitted by mechanics to give more headroom to overheat, which is pretty simplistic.
Regards Philip A

True, the 3.9s are meant to have an 82C thermostat, and the extra hose to the intake manifold shouldn't hurt. In fact I'm fairly certain that the airlock in the radiator was the main culprit in the overheating. The top hose also played a part I think, but I'll get to that a bit later. The extra headroom in the thermostat opening would have been a nice buffer, which may have delayed the engine heating to the redline.

As for the hose from the header tank to the intake manifold, it was installed, but as a T-piece going from the tube connecting the tank to the top of the radiator, rather than as a second hose from the header tank.

I should say at this point I'm not certain how this produced airlocks in the radiator, but it did. Even after I found the airlock, bled it and towed it to the mechanic, when he ran it for a little while, the airlock reappeared! (??) (the TK test shows no CO2 in the coolant!)

The problem with the cooling system was that the header tank acted only as an expansion tank, rather than a part of the coolant flow through the system.
This meant that any airlocks caught in the top of the radiator would stay there.

The theoretical solution is to connect the 2nd outlet of the header tank to the water pump inlet (using a T-piece) creating suction, and therefore flow from the top of the radiator through the header tank into the water pump. This will result in any air that is caught in the top of the radiator getting sucked out to the header tank and being trapped there, where it does no harm.

Hope it works in practive, and I hope it's not impossible to follow without photos or diagrams...

By the way, no carbs, injected 3.9.

Cheers

Bojan


...(Hopefully a good) outcome to come later...

[PhilipA]

The hose from the manifold of a 3.9 injection, is only to warm the throttle blade and is not necessary.

The hose should originate at the top of the RH tank of the radiator. There should be 2 hose stubs on there,1 to the header tank and one to the throttle blade.

Why on earth has someone monkeyed around with the hoses?????
As a 3.9 it should have 2 steel heater hoses along the RH top of the RH rocker cover, with a filler nipple in one. This is the highest point of the engine and should be where the final top up and bleed is done.

Has the car got the correct lower radiator hose with a T hose to the bottom of the header/overflow tank? If so I do not see any need for other hoses.

If it is a "cobble up" of a 3.5 manifold, you should face the car steeply up hill when filling into the filler hole on the RH of the radiator.
You are really feeding us piecemeal information here.
How about some photos of what you mean and a FULL description of the setup on the car.
You should have absolutely no airlock problems on a standard 3.9, as Land Rover changed several thingsfrom the 3.5 eg the heater hoses precisely to stop airlock problems.
Help us help you.
Regards Philip A

[Offender90]

Philip,

Like I said, I hope it's not too difficult to follow without photos. The car is currently getting sorted out at the mechanic's. As soon as I get it back, I will take photos and post details. As for feeding you information bit by bit, I'm pretty new to the rover engine, and am not sure what the "normal" setup should be.

The engine that's in the car came out of a rolled Rangie, it's coupled to a 5 speed manual gearbox, which I'm told is not out of the rangie... It's got a plentitude of additional sensors and wires on the loom that are not in use (oil temp sender, additional "thermocouple" which seems to be in the cooling system - thermoswitch for a thermofan??)...

...The point I'm trying to stress here is that I don't know what's supposed to go where, let alone how THIS engine's been put together...

... what I can tell you is that it has power to spare! If you bear with me, I will post details when I get the car back.

Cheers
Bojan

BTW, as for feeding you peacemeal information, I'm only posting information after I find out / read about it / have it explained to me. I knew a lot less about the engine a week ago than I do now... and even now I know very little!! So apologies to all that find it frustrating.

[PhilipA]

Look, it would help if you can tell.
1 What sort of car is the 3.9 in?
2 What model are all the bits from? eg radiator, inlet manifold,overflow tank? The 3.9 Range Rover radiator has 2 small nipples for hoses on the RH radiator tank. Does the one in the car?
3 What is the layout of hoses? Thus my request for photos.
The 3.9 in a Range Rover and disco has 2 heater pipes which run along the top of the right hand rocker cover, and these were added to provide a fill point at the highest point of the engine and heater and stop air pockets. Does your engine have this?
The 3.9 has plastic header/expansion tank with a large pipe to the bottom hose. Does your engine have this?.

I would dissuade a mechanic from adlibbing on adding hoses etc unless you are very sure he knows what he is doing, as Land Rover cooling design is very good and designed for the most extreme conditions.

Also Rover V8s HATE being overheated and it is possible for the sleeves to become loose after even one overheat. In this case the head gaskets need not have been blown.
Regards Philip A

[Offender90]

Phillip,

1. The engine now resides in a Defender 90. The guy that owned it before me did all the engine transplant work.
2. Engine is out of a '91 Rangie (to the best of my knowledge).
The radiator could be from the 200Tdi that was originally fitted, but I simply I don't know. It's defiantely not out of the rangie. It fits perfectly in the defender (all the right mounts) has an inlet valve at the top right hand corner (looking from the front of the car into the engine bay), outlet at the bottom left hand corner, small hose connection at the top left hand corner (going to the header tank), large bleed / fill screw in the top left hand corner (above the smoll hose connection).

The expansion tank is plastic, and has one largish (10-12mm diameter?) and one smallish (5 - 6mm dialeter) connection. Has a 15 PSI pressure release cap on top. Originally (when I bought it) only the smaller pipe was connected to the cooling circuit (to the LH top of the radiator). The larger diameter pipe was blocked off (a small tube with a bolt on the other end).
The header tank was effectively used as an expansion tank.

The heater is no longer connected to the cooling circuit. There are two connections where I think the heater was connected (one off the pump, and one off the block, near the top end of the V, from memory), but these have been short-circuited by a small S-bend tube.

3.) I think photos are a great idea re: layout of hoses - I have trouble following what I just wrote... and I just wrote it!!!

With regard to your other suggestions:

"I would dissuade a mechanic from adlibbing on adding hoses etc unless you are very sure he knows what he is doing, as Land Rover cooling design is very good and designed for the most extreme conditions."

Hmm... I would be tempted to say he does know what he's doing (he's a Land Rover mechanic, and has been for the past 20 years, does nothing but rovers)... but then again, he did leave a massive airlock in the radiator... so I really don't know. I think it was done by one of his staff, and he'll be looking at it this time.

"Also Rover V8s HATE being overheated and it is possible for the sleeves to become loose after even one overheat. In this case the head gaskets need not have been blown.
Regards Philip A"

Philip, this is my major concern at this stage.

I've spoken to several mechanics, some with LR specific knowledge, and some with general knowledge. The general concensus (with one exception) seems to be that if it hadn't blown the head gasket, it will most likely be OK.

What are your thoughts?

Is there any way to tell, and if not, is there anything I could / should do over the next month or so to make the problem evident?

At this stage I have something to go back to the mechanic on. If it is / becomes evident in the next couple of months, it would be reasonable to assert that it was directly related to the engine overheating.

Anything over that, and I'm afraid I'm on my own. (Mild panic setting in with even a slightest thought of a $7k engine rebuild.)

[PhilipA]

OK,
That clears a few issues.
I am not an expert on Defenders, but AFAIK a Defender Rad should have an intercooler at one end,so is narrower than a V8 Rad. No intercooler would suggest it is 110V8 rad.
The layout sounds OK, but a 3.9 usually has a 13mm or so ID pipe from the lower hose to the expansion bottle.

This is not necessary however (as 3.5s never had them) and it should cool fine with just the hoses there.
I think the problem has been caused simply by the mechanic not filling it properly, however when it is a "custom" installation its hard to blame anyone.

With regards to a sleeve shifting, the way to tell
is usually a tapping noise when warm, which is the sleeve moving up and down and hitting the head, as the fire ring of the gasket is outside the OD of the sleeve and there is 20thou or so space.
Also the engine will mysteriously lose water without any in the oil.
I would be asking the mechanic to sign a letter guaranteeing to fix a moved sleeve if it happens in the next 12 months.
regards Philip A

[BigJon]

OK,
I would be asking the mechanic to sign a letter guaranteeing to fix a moved sleeve if it happens in the next 12 months.
regards Philip A

I can't imagine anyone would sign said letter, unless the customer was paying for the repair.

[PhilipA]

Well I presented a letter to the guy who shall remain nameless who left only 100MM of oil in my BW transfer case after removing the transmission for a rear main seal.
He was willing to stand by his error if it failed within say 12 months, but at least it should be in writing setting out the situation and the demand, so that there is no confusion or miscommunication in the future.
Regards Philip A

[BigJon]

All I am saying is that there is no way on Gods green Earth that I would guarantee the longevity of an engine with unknown mileage, in a converted vehicle, with suspect cooling system for any longer than the standard 1/2 warranty. Once it is out of the yard, too bad...

[Offender90]

Sounds like a V8 defender radiator to me, as no intercooler on the side.

As for the mechanic signing a slipped sleeve guarantee for 12 months it seems like an awful good idea to me :D, but as BigJon said, the mechanic may not see it as reasonable. Having said that, if the sleeve slipped in the next couple of months, I would be expecting him to fix it, as the engine overheating is a direct consequence of negligence on his behalf.

Really, if I think about it, if the overheating has weakened the block, and the sleeve slips as a result even after two months (provided the engine hasn't been overheated again), it was a result of the negligent action so I don't think it would be unreasonable.

I'm an engineer, and If I design a bridge, a building foundation ... or anything else for that matter, my work has to stand up to scrutiny for the design life of the product. If I'm found to be negligent 20 years down the track, I and the company I worked for might be sued for damages. That's why PI insurance is running sky high.

My next question then is, what is a reasonable period of time in which one might expect the damage from overheatig to become evident. Conversely, what are the chances of getting a slipped sleeve without overheating the engine?



Any thoughts?

[Offender90]

Hi,

Here's the update to the situation. The new setup (see photos below) has sorted the overheating problem. As mentioned earlier, I've had a VDO gauge, sender and adapter (to fit the sender unit in 5/8 UNF) installed by the same mechanic.... and a lot of electrical problems after I got the car back, but I'll get to that later.

At the first mention of liability / responsibility for the overheating and potential damage, I was thrown out of the workshop.

The exact words cannot be repeated, but a lot of you F, get the F, never come back you F, you or your F vehicle... you get the idea! Really not what I expected, given the shop was recommended... needless to say I will not be going there again.

In any case, back to the matters at hand (oh, forgot to mention I was physically threatened as well)... really back to the matters at hand this time, the mechanic also noticed the oil light wasn't working, so he took it upon himself to fix it. (for which I was grateful by the way - if he called to confirm the work, I would have said go ahead) But he didn't! Anyhow, none of this would have mattered if I got the car back with functioning electrics.

The indicator is connected to all things electrical, from tachometer to the injectors. Turning the indicator (left or right) on while key is in contact position, the tacho meter is playing up, (ticking up and down), the injectors are firing (yes, injecting fuel into the cylinders???). At first I thought it was a slipped liner, as I had trouble turning it on after a few dormant days, but turning the indicator on, waiting for 20 seconds and trying to switch the engine on produced the same symptoms. Thankfully, no slipped liner yet.

I suspect a bad earth somewhere, but all the ones I found and earthed properly didn't respond... any ideas?

I've pulled the dash off, and am going through the indicator wires all the way down to the indicator, trying to find if anything is shorted. My big clue is that turning the indicator causes the symptoms, turning the hazards on doesnt (both at once). This makes me beleive the problem is hiding somewhere between the steering column and the relay... but still doesn't explain the injectors. Anyone have similar issues?

I've since spoken to the electrician who has done the work by the way, retraced all the steps he did, and can't find anything obvious.

OK, now photos below, Photo 1 - New Engine Bay, Photo 2 - new hose to the RH top of the engine, Photo 3 - the T junction in the bottom radiator hose, Photo 4 - top of bottom hose T Junction joining on to the header tank.
Photo 5 - inside the cabin of the 'fender 1 hour ago.

Photo 6 - inside fender 1 hour ago, and Photo 7 - Original engine bay to follow in the next post

[Offender90]

Photo 6 - inside fender 1 hour ago, and Photo 7 - Engine bay (original)

[4bee]

And it goes without saying that you'll recommend them to others.


Recommend that they don't go there that is.:o

Cripes, what a carry on!

The first rule of not accepting any responsibility is to go on the attack, it seems.

[duncanw]

I'm a bit surprised at that reaction you got from them, I know where your talking about and I was thinking about getting them to do my clutch and timing belt but I'll just take the car off the road for as long as it takes now and do it myself :eek:

anyway good to hear its not overheating

[Offender90]

I'm a bit surprised at that reaction you got from them, I know where your talking about and I was thinking about getting them to do my clutch and timing belt but I'll just take the car off the road for as long as it takes now and do it myself :eek:

anyway good to hear its not overheating

Duncan,

You have a pretty standard setup there, and the shop that shall not be named does see a lot of them. If you need the car for work and dont have time / tools to do it yourself, I would still take it in. They've done it a hundred times before, and chances are they'll do it right.
But if my experience is anything to go by, if things don't go smoothly, they're all care, no responsibility!

[Offender90]

And it goes without saying that you'll recommend them to others.


Recommend that they don't go there that is.:o

Cripes, what a carry on!

The first rule of not accepting any responsibility is to go on the attack, it seems.

Yeah... well, I've had a nightmarish experience with them... TWICE!!! ... But that's only two examples. There are others here who have had no problems with them and highly recommend them.

I don't want to raise any false alarms (hence no public shaming)... but, if anyone has a non-standard setup I'd strongly encourage them not to take it there... PM me for details if you want to know.

Oh, and I can only tell you where not to go tho... I wouldn't have a clue where else to take it, but I'll certainly be looking for a new one... ... prefer the devil I don't know!!! :wasntme:

Dare I ask any suggestions? :o

[LoveMyV8County]

Would one of you mind sending me a pm for the 'place not to go to'?? Please?

Caveat emptor and all that.

Tks

Chris