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Utemad
14th November 2007, 07:27 AM
Hi all,

This is a pic of my camper trailer axle stub.

I have been talking to ALKO and they have said that if my current axle doesn't have the electric turnback machined into the axle to mount the brake backing plate then I will need a new axle.

Axle is currently 45mm square and 35mm round stub.

Can you see one?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/174.jpg

Also they are saying that I shouldn't bother with electric brakes as the trailer is so light (sub 850kg when finished I reckon). However I would think that electric would be better/more useful offroad/fast dirt than mechanical but then I've never used either offroad. Any thoughts?

Pedro_The_Swift
14th November 2007, 07:35 AM
I thought the limit was 750???
brakes are good--
any brakes are better than no brakes--

as for the turnback??

edit;

Justin I've just looked through the Vehicle Components cattledog,,
(do you want a 4mg email?)

nothing jumps out in the axel section,,,

edit2,
part number 07 3102 OLD
lugs welded in situ,, one for round, one square,
easy enough to buy-- can you weld an axel??

incisor
14th November 2007, 07:43 AM
there are arguments either way for electric brakes off-road...

i went mechanical disc as i can fix mechanical myself and have only been in one situation off-road where i wished i had electrical and that was when the brakes in my old disco overheated coming down a very steep slope.

electric can help you get a trailer back in-line if it steps out which could come in handy occasionally

cant help with the turnback, sorry.

jrh1946
14th November 2007, 07:53 AM
Hi Utemad,

Don't know why Alko insists on an "electric turnback" whatever that is.
Trailer brake backing plates usually are attached to flanges welded to the axle. You buy the flange to suit the axle shape (round versus square) and size.

If you buy a brake kit the flanges are included.

I'd talk to someone like http://www.marshall-eng.com.au/. Describe your existing axle when you talk to them.

I have a trailer which is probably just under the weight limit where brakes are required - I'm thinking of fitting electric brakes for the same reason - increased stability and reduced braking distance.

regards
JRH1946

Pedro_The_Swift
14th November 2007, 08:04 AM
just in case my previous question gets lost in the clutter--

can you legally weld axels?




would make your job much cheaper justin,,

Lotz-A-Landies
14th November 2007, 08:04 AM
I have no idea what the "turnback" is, however I have fitted electric brakes recently.

The backing plate for the brakes mounts onto a square mounting flange which has a large hole which is centred by the round machined part of your axle and is welded in place.

How you do that is affix the mounting flange onto the backing plate. Then assemble the hub/bearings (no seal) with backing plate in the vertical position onto the stub axle and do up the retaining nut. This will align everything and tack weld the mounting plate on 4 sides. Remove the backing plate and hub and complete the welding.

There are 2 types of electric drum brakes, regular and off road which have better retaining of the magnets onto the backing plate. Get the off road design which will stand up to corrugated roads better.

I have had a very bad experience with Couplemate :mad::mad::mad::mad: mail order service :mad::mad::mad::mad: however they are in Brisbane (Couple-Mate Pty Ltd, 1/136 Glenora Street, Wynnum. 4178. Brisbane. Queensland.Australia Tel : 07 3348 3822 Fax : 07-3348-2939) give them a ring ask your turnback question and you can pick up orders direct from them. Which is a very poor recommendation for a mail order company.

Electric brakes are excellent on the road, far far better than override mechanical/hydraulic. And as Incisor says can (an have) bring you back in line in an emergency or for poorly or difficult balanced loads

Diana

Utemad
14th November 2007, 10:12 AM
Okay to give some more info.

I have never heard of the electric turnback either and google returned zero hits.
What ALKO described it as was an extra machining on the axle to accept the backing plate. Just looking at the pic (not that I can at work) the surface the grease seal runs on (the black mark just before the brown dirt) extends back a fair way and I thought that having seen pics of the weld on backing plate that this would be where it welds on to.

As for electric/override my dad (mechanical engineer) has always said that override brakes are the brakes you think you have when you don't have brakes. Although his trailers have usually had hydraulic override brakes.

I saw ALKO had offroad versions of their electric drums but didn't know what was different for sure so thanks for that.

Someone in our club told me of how they limped their Hilux down a mountain using only their electric trailer brakes as their brakes had failed.

I'm assuming you can weld axles as the backing plates have to be welded on.

My trailer is stamped as being 520kg so I don't need brakes by law yet but the 850kg figure was a guesstimate of being loaded with full water tank and a couple of jerries and gas bottle. Probably not that heavy but maybe would be on a really big trip with another spare tyre and tools etc.

My main reason for wanting brakes is for fast dirt and off road. I have had a few moments when I have been coming downhill on a dirt road and tapped the brakes to have the trailer push the tail of the Disco offline. I would have thought electric would be better for this situation as you can have them come one exactly he same time as the car brakes whereas override would require the car to slow before the trailer would brake itself and if the trailer has already pushed the rear of the car offline then it probably isn't going to have enough pressure on the ball to activate the brakes.

Pedro I think I have the file you are talking about somewhere if you downloaded it from their website. Thanks anyway.

I have all measurements at work with me except the diameter of the stub that the seal rides on. So will have to wait till I get home to measure that bit again.

Thanks for the info. I'll have a look at the Couplemate website too.

Lotz-A-Landies
14th November 2007, 10:32 AM
Just as an aside in relation to seals, there are an alternate seal (I think designed for marine use) where there is a stainless steel cup which presses into your hub and the rubber seal sits on the stub axle and mates onto the S/S cup to form the seal.

Much better design than the traditional style that run on the non-hardened and often worn, machined surface of the axle.

The brake backing plates don't weld onto the axle - just the flanges. You can then remove the plates if damaged etc.

Diana

Utemad
14th November 2007, 10:42 AM
The brake backing plates don't weld onto the axle - just the flanges. You can then remove the plates if damaged etc.

Diana

yep that is what I meant.

Another question.
Does fitting drum brakes change your wheel track?

Lotz-A-Landies
14th November 2007, 10:53 AM
yep that is what I meant.

Another question.
Does fitting drum brakes change your wheel track?
If you have used Al-Ko un-braked hubs then the Al-Ko electric brake drums will have the same track.

If you have used car hubs which had a removable drum then your track will widen by about 1/2".

Diana

Utemad
14th November 2007, 11:32 AM
The Couplemate website is pretty good for info.

http://www.couplemate.com.au/index.html?ext262.html&1

Interestngly they sell ALKO gear but no mention of the electric turnback. In fact if you look at their stub axles they look the same as what I have.

ALKO is at Underwood though so I will probably just go there once I have decided on what to get.

It is annoying though that wherever you look or whoever you talk to they never seem to have the full info. They are always unsure. The Couplemate site seems to show that it is actually quite straight forward.

Lotz-A-Landies
14th November 2007, 12:58 PM
The Couplemate website is pretty good for info.

http://www.couplemate.com.au/index.html?ext262.html&1

Interestngly they sell ALKO gear but no mention of the electric turnback. In fact if you look at their stub axles they look the same as what I have.

It is annoying though that wherever you look or whoever you talk to they never seem to have the full info. They are always unsure. The Couplemate site seems to show that it is actually quite straight forward.
The really sad thing is that I actually bought my brake kit from Couple-Mate, got a good price, delivered to Sydney which was cheaper than Caravan Accessories which is just down the road. I would have recommended the company.

Did a second deal with them with no problems, then had a nightmare with them. Ordered some pretty cheap items, which because of their single delivery policy weren't left at my house. Then I was unable to get a second delivery or get Couple-Mate to return my emails for over 10 days. Ended up getting a refund on the items but had to pay for the Star-Track delivery which was the problem with the whole transaction.

If you do deal with them specify an alternate delivery if no one home or have someone at home for the next week.

Diana

incisor
14th November 2007, 01:02 PM
thats a star-track policy not the sending companies policy...

get it sent austpost if they will do it, then someone doesnt have to be there..you will get a card saying they tried, come and get it at the post office..

Lotz-A-Landies
14th November 2007, 01:10 PM
thats a star-track policy not the sending companies policy.....No when I contacted Star-Track they stated that Couple-Mate would not "Authorise" a second delivery.

Which I guess means that Star-Track has a policy of getting authorisations for second deliveries and Couple-Mate :mad: didn't authorise it.

Diana

Addit: What is worse is that I ordered the item Wednesday evening/night was home for the entire period from the morning after the order. This included the Thursday, the next day Friday, the entire following Weekend, the entire Monday and until 1 pm on Tuesday. Star Track arrived at 1.30pm on Tuesday. (Not that I would have expected delivery on Thursday or even Friday)

Utemad
14th November 2007, 01:26 PM
I have had trouble before with courier companies. I try not to use them as I am never home during the day and until now didn't have a job where I was in the same place all the time.
Some places will only use couriers and I generally have to pick it up from their courier's depot because of it which defeats the purpose!
It really annoys me when a company will only use a courier and it ends up taking me a week to get something due to me having to go and pick it up from them. I would have had the item in 1-2 days had it been sent by Aussie Post.

However now I can have things sent to me at work as I have an office job.


thats a star-track policy not the sending companies policy...

get it sent austpost if they will do it, then someone doesnt have to be there..you will get a card saying they tried, come and get it at the post office..

Telstra sent my NextG phone to my home by courier and I was surpised that when I got home there was a card saying to pick it up from the post office. The courier company was a private company not aussie post.

Bushwanderer
14th November 2007, 02:48 PM
I have had trouble before with courier companies. I try not to use them as I am never home during the day and until now didn't have a job where I was in the same place all the time.
Some places will only use couriers and I generally have to pick it up from their courier's depot because of it which defeats the purpose!
It really annoys me when a company will only use a courier and it ends up taking me a week to get something due to me having to go and pick it up from them. I would have had the item in 1-2 days had it been sent by Aussie Post.

However now I can have things sent to me at work as I have an office job.



Telstra sent my NextG phone to my home by courier and I was surpised that when I got home there was a card saying to pick it up from the post office. The courier company was a private company not aussie post.

I had the same thing happen. It would seem that there is a contract between Telstra, the courier (whose name escapes me too) & Aus Post in order to allow this to happen.

Utemad
14th November 2007, 03:24 PM
I called Couplemate and got quoted $844.35 for:
Offroad brake backing plates
Drums in LR stud pattern (165mm PCD)
Handbrake with cable and fitting kit
Tekonsha Prodigy controller.

I had to tell him that LandCruiser 5 stud was not the same as LR 5 stud but he said anything can be done but it will be special order.

That's fairly pricey. More than I was expecting anyway.

Considering they charge $190 for the controller I am guessing that either they are an expensive shop or the $450-500 electric brake option when I bought the camper was only using the onroad version of the brakes or a cheaper version anyway.

In comparison mechanical override using a Treg coupling would cost about $767.50.
Brakes $306.50
Override Tregg $360
Handbrake and bits $101

Given the 'cheaper' mechanical brakes price the electric brakes price isn't too bad. Except if I got electric I'd still need to buy an offroad hitch so add another $250 or so to that.

All very interesting.

Lotz-A-Landies
14th November 2007, 03:59 PM
I called Couplemate and got quoted $844.35 for:
Offroad brake backing plates
Tekonsha Prodigy controller.

I had to tell him that LandCruiser 5 stud was not the same as LR 5 stud but he said anything can be done but it will be special order.

All very interesting.
Justin

The Prodigy is quite an advanced controller and is the type I have. It uses guided missile technology for the proportional braking and works in reverse (although the trailer brakes may not) - you can use a less advanced controller for less than $100 but the control box needs to be "levelled" to the car and does not deal so well with steep hill decents etc.

I know that recently, when towing loads varying from several hundred Kg to 4 ton I was glad I could simply adjust the trailer brakes from my driving position. I could even do it while stopping. They saved me from wiping out in the M5 tunnel with the sudden onset of a severe fishtail and, I would never go back to over-ride brakes if I can help it. Vacuum hydraulic/mechanical would be my only other choice, but that is much more expensive than electric brakes.

Original Land Rover PCD (not Disco 2/p38a PCD) is an optional pattern from Al-Ko on the Land Cruiser parrallel bearings and may need to be a special order.

Utemad
14th November 2007, 07:57 PM
Just been searching Ebay and saw this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/11/170.jpg

Those weld on flanges are I assume for a square axle. I've only seen round hole ones before. I assumed they welded on to the round stub part after the seal but before the square axle part but I can see know they weld onto the axle tube itself. So I don't know what on earth the ALKO guy was on about with the electric turnback. I'm beginning to think he made it up.

Utemad
14th November 2007, 08:26 PM
Original Land Rover PCD (not Disco 2/p38a PCD) is an optional pattern from Al-Ko on the Land Cruiser parrallel bearings and may need to be a special order.

So they do
http://www.alko.com.au/vehicle/drum_brakes/e_drums.html

Lotz-A-Landies
14th November 2007, 10:37 PM
So they do
http://www.alko.com.au/vehicle/drum_brakes/e_drums.html
Oh Yee of little faith - the oracle hath spoken an thee doubted the oracle! :D:D:D:D:D

Utemad
16th November 2007, 03:31 PM
I'll be placing an order for 10in electric brakes and Prodigy controller on Monday morning.

Thanks for the help guys. It's been a very informative thread.

DiscoDan
16th November 2007, 11:06 PM
Hi Justin

My Prodigy controller was way cheaper than $190.

Active Trailer Spares in Beenleigh.

Customline also deals with them:D

Utemad
17th November 2007, 09:01 AM
Hi Justin

My Prodigy controller was way cheaper than $190.

Active Trailer Spares in Beenleigh.

Customline also deals with them:D

That's the place.

I'll call them this morning then :)

They were shut on Friday arvo by the time I called them back.

Utemad
17th November 2007, 05:24 PM
OK got all the bits now to fit them..........

Although I forgot to buy the handbrake bits :oops2:

Utemad
20th November 2007, 07:33 PM
I have no idea what the "turnback" is, however I have fitted electric brakes recently.

I discovered what the turnback refers to I think. The part of the stub which is between the hub seal and the square tube. If you have one (as I do) you get a round holed mounting flange if you don't you can get a square holed mounting flange (or round whatever suits your axle).


The backing plate for the brakes mounts onto a square mounting flange which has a large hole which is centred by the round machined part of your axle and is welded in place.

How you do that is affix the mounting flange onto the backing plate. Then assemble the hub/bearings (no seal) with backing plate in the vertical position onto the stub axle and do up the retaining nut. This will align everything and tack weld the mounting plate on 4 sides. Remove the backing plate and hub and complete the welding.


Diana in order to have a dummy run of welding the flanges on I've mounted the flanges to the backing plates and mounted the drum and bearings onto the stub and bolted it up.

When you weld the flange on do you squeeze the backing plate to the drum? There is not much difference (3mm) between squeezing the backing plate to the drum or pushing it back hard up to the end of the stub.
Also did you adjust the pads out to hold the backing plate in position when you welded it?

I assume from your description that you welded it from the back of the flange (suspension side).

Lotz-A-Landies
20th November 2007, 08:16 PM
.... Diana in order to have a dummy run of welding the flanges on I've mounted the flanges to the backing plates and mounted the drum and bearings onto the stub and bolted it up.

When you weld the flange on do you squeeze the backing plate to the drum? There is not much difference (3mm) between squeezing the backing plate to the drum or pushing it back hard up to the end of the stub.
Also did you adjust the pads out to hold the backing plate in position when you welded it?...
What we did was fit the flange to the backing plate and tighten the nuts up without spring washers. (There should be 4 locating whats-a-ma-thingos on the flanges which marry with locating holes on the backing plates, make sure you have them the correct way around) Fitted the inner bearing into the hub, then put the drum over the backing plate assembly and with a touch of grease on the stub axle pushed the drum and backing plate into position until it all came up against the shoulder. Then fit the outer bearing and tighten up the nut to just over finger tight.

After that we pushed the backing plate back until the drum rotated freely and then adjusted up the shoes.

This was the point where we tack welded the flanges.

If you only have an even 3mm on all sides after doing that, it is not going to be a problem if you push the backing plates all the way back. It will give you that extra safety margin and if the plates get bent off road and gives better clearance of the magnets off the drum.

The problem is that you don't know how accurate the machinist was when they made the axle.


...I assume from your description that you welded it from the back of the flange (suspension side).

Yes - while everything was assembled, just put 4 tack welds on each of the 4 corners. Then removed everything from the axle, including removing the backing plates from the flanges, then completed the welds.

Hope this helps. :):)
Diana

Utemad
20th November 2007, 08:41 PM
Hope this helps. :):)
Diana

Yes that helps a lot. Thanks :)

Redback
21st November 2007, 07:37 AM
This might be wrong but looking at your axle there doesn't appear to be a taper on the stub, it looks a constant size to the thread, maybe the AL-KO guy was refering to the turnback as the taper of the stub on the axle.

An excample is this stub axle with the taper
http://www.allstatestrailerspares.com.au/images/1301-1308AL.jpg
Weld ring for square axle
http://www.allstatestrailerspares.com.au/images/1618L.jpg
Weld ring for round axle
http://www.allstatestrailerspares.com.au/images/1618B&CL.jpg

Baz.

Utemad
21st November 2007, 07:49 AM
Hi Redback,

Where the bearings run on my stub axle is a constant size at it uses the large ford bearing inner and outer as opposed to the large inner and small outer. However where the bearings run is larger in diameter than the thread.

I think from what I was told that the axle you show below would use the square holed flange as there is bugger all room between where the hub seal would run and the square part of the axle.

incisor
21st November 2007, 07:55 AM
No when I contacted Star-Track they stated that Couple-Mate would not "Authorise" a second delivery.

Which I guess means that Star-Track has a policy of getting authorisations for second deliveries and Couple-Mate :mad: didn't authorise it.

Diana

Addit: What is worse is that I ordered the item Wednesday evening/night was home for the entire period from the morning after the order. This included the Thursday, the next day Friday, the entire following Weekend, the entire Monday and until 1 pm on Tuesday. Star Track arrived at 1.30pm on Tuesday. (Not that I would have expected delivery on Thursday or even Friday)

star track charge for the second or successive drop thats why they wont authorise it. most comapnies will do a second drop for nix...

Lotz-A-Landies
21st November 2007, 08:00 AM
This might be wrong but looking at your axle there doesn't appear to be a taper on the stub, it looks a constant size to the thread, maybe the AL-KO guy was refering to the turnback as the taper of the stub on the axle.
Baz.
Baz

Justin is correct - the tapered stub axles have lower load ratings. Holden = 1000Kg
Ford = 1450Kg While the "parallel" bearings have higher load ratings depending on the dimensions of the axle starting at 1600Kg and going well over 2000Kg per axle.

Diana

Rosco
21st November 2007, 08:09 AM
just in case my previous question gets lost in the clutter--

can you legally weld axels?




would make your job much cheaper justin,,

AFAIK there's no reason why not. To my knowledge the axle is usually only Grade 250 (mild steel) so I can't see why not. May well be corrected though.

Cheers

Lotz-A-Landies
21st November 2007, 08:12 AM
star track charge for the second or successive drop thats why they wont authorise it. most comapnies will do a second drop for nix...
That may be correct, however Couplemate knew they were dispatching to a private home and they know Star-Track charge for second deliveries.

What would make any company in Australia in 2007 think that there would be someone home in the middle of the day in the business week.

Why did Couplemate, an internet/mail order trading company not have any arrangements in place to respond to email messages for 10 days after the failed delivery? (I work during the day and have long distance bar on my work telephone.)

Why is there not a part on CoupleMates on-line order system to designate alternate delivery if there is no one home? I have great neighbours many of them retired who are home all day, any of 4 neighbours could have received the delivery.

Diana

DiscoDan
22nd November 2007, 12:43 PM
AFAIK there's no reason why not. To my knowledge the axle is usually only Grade 250 (mild steel) so I can't see why not. May well be corrected though.

Cheers

All the spring locators are welded on. :D

Lotz-A-Landies
22nd November 2007, 01:07 PM
All the spring locators are welded on. :D
It is fascinating, there are all these ADRs specifying almost everything about building trailers including that the safety chains must be load rated on each link - try to find that type of chain at CAMAC (Caravan Accessories)? :mad:

When it comes to axles they specify the load ratings of different types of bearings and outside dimensions of the axle, but nowhere does it specify what grade of steel it should be.

You can even use square tubing with the stub axles in the ends and all semi trailer axles are welded..

So weld away


Diana

Utemad
2nd December 2007, 11:24 AM
The brakes have been bought, fitted and tested.

Thanks guys.