Poly bushes

[PAT303]

3 months ago I replaced the rear trailing arm bushes with poly however you spell it bushes and the stupid things are clunking worse than the worn out rubber ones were.There is a metal sleeve inside the poly that is longer than the poly itself so it's metal to metal.I will have to pull it apart,shorten the sleeve and then re-fit,should have bought genuine. Pat

[Bushwanderer]

3 months ago I replaced the rear trailing arm bushes with poly however you spell it bushes and the stupid things are clunking worse than the worn out rubber ones were.There is a metal sleeve inside the poly that is longer than the poly itself so it's metal to metal.I will have to pull it apart,shorten the sleeve and then re-fit,should have bought genuine. Pat

Hi Pat303,
Unfortunately, you are not the first to have trouble with the Polybushes. They last well, but are, generally, too hard (even though you can buy different hardness ones now).

I'll stick with OEM.

[isuzu110]

My experience is that the only place for polys is the panhard rod, especially if you have a leaky steering box.

Other than that, my vote is to stay with OEM rubber bushes elsewhere. Poly seems to crack or limit articulation. I know there are varying hardness/flexibility polys but I am yet to find one that I like.

This topic can be another one of those religious debates. eg. Do you run grease or oil in the swivels, finer air filter or paper one etc etc.

If poly is working well for someone else out there, that is great. I'm not trying to stop you. Enjoy!

[loanrangie]

My experience is that the only place for polys is the panhard rod, especially if you have a leaky steering box.

Other than that, my vote is to stay with OEM rubber bushes elsewhere. Poly seems to crack or limit articulation. I know there are varying hardness/flexibility polys but I am yet to find one that I like.

This topic can be another one of those religious debates. eg. Do you run grease or oil in the swivels, finer air filter or paper one etc etc.

If poly is working well for someone else out there, that is great. I'm not trying to stop you. Enjoy!

I agree and from my own experience use them in the panhard rods only, they may be ok in the wet climes of the UK where dust is rare but down here they tend to chew out quickly as you have found.

[rick130]

Depends on the brand.
I'll only use Super Pro, and I'm very selective where I'll use them. They cured a bad clunk on the A frame to chassis mounts where the OE ones had flogged out the centre crush tube and 3/4" bolt !

Pat, exactly which bush ? you might find that that centre sleeve needs to be long enough to be trapped by the clevis and the poly bush is supposed to rotate on it (it acts as its axle )

[PAT303]

There blue and there the ones that go to the chassis.There is a 1/8 gap on both sides of the poly,so the trailing arm moves forward and back that much before the poly comes into play.All over a poor show. Pat

[460cixy]

i replaced the a frame bushes in mine with genuine and with new bolts. found the bolts worn out and panhard bolts worn out too i recon there made of cheese

[PhilipA]

Just for the record, Panhard bolts only wear out when they are too loose. they should TIGHTLY as in about 150Ft Lb clamp the inner tube of the metalistic bush so it doesn't move, and the angle movement is taken up by shear elasticity in the rubber.
BUT often servicers and mugs like me do not go around often enough with the big spanner.
Regards Philip A

[460cixy]

ahhh hhaaa mine are all rattle gun tight mmhmm

[Range Blitzer]

Whilst talking bushes, should body mount bushes have a steel sleeve over the bolt where it goes through the rubbers? Pulled one of mine off and found what could be the remains of a sleeve. Lots of slop from rubber to bolt and lots of rusty looking dirt and years of mud I'd say. Any ideas? Its a RRC.

[loanrangie]

Just for the record, Panhard bolts only wear out when they are too loose. they should TIGHTLY as in about 150Ft Lb clamp the inner tube of the metalistic bush so it doesn't move, and the angle movement is taken up by shear elasticity in the rubber.
BUT often servicers and mugs like me do not go around often enough with the big spanner.
Regards Philip A

Cheapest suspension fix you can do on a rangie or disco is get a big spanner and tighten all the bolts up !

[camel_landy]

IMO - Use OE bushes, not poly.

I'd much rather replace worn out rubber bushes than replace stress fractured suspension components.

My 2c

M

[furianer]

years ago we used to run poly bushes on a fleet of Landcruisers in central australia. they improved the handling of the truck quite a bit, but passed a lot of stress on to the rest of the chassis and bodywork. The Cruisers started to crack in various spots, but that brilliant 4.2 never let us down. ( the stiff after market suspension didn't help )
I only use original rubber bushes on my trucks, some of my customers run polybushes blue, which are ok and easy to fit.

Richard

[rick130]

There blue and there the ones that go to the chassis.There is a 1/8 gap on both sides of the poly,so the trailing arm moves forward and back that much before the poly comes into play.All over a poor show. Pat

so we are talking the lower trailing arm, chassis end ?

If so, check out Super Pro's (made by Fulcrum) bush. Not cheap, but IMHO a far better design than OE. I've been using them for 4 or 5 years now and no problem. The design reduces the pounding out that the OE rubber one experiences and allows better articulation. A win-win.

[rick130]

IMO - Use OE bushes, not poly.

I'd much rather replace worn out rubber bushes than replace stress fractured suspension components.

My 2c

M

and again I say, depends on the bush, depends on the durometer (hardness).

[Dougal]

Poly bushes have been in my radius arms for at least the last 100,000km.
Still haven't worn out but they do increase the front roll stiffness a lot.

I put them in the panhard maybe 30,000km ago. No issues there.

[djam1]

I am going to use a swear word here but 10 years or so ago I worked for Toyota and I remember knocking back warranty claims on 80 series with Poly Bushes. They were too stiff and the end result was cracked diff housings.
Well thats what the engineers said at the time

[Grimace]

Rubber = Good

anything else = rubbish

dont argue with me, if you want to use rubbish its fine :)

[BigJon]

years ago we used to run poly bushes on a fleet of Landcruisers in central australia. they improved the handling of the truck quite a bit, but passed a lot of stress on to the rest of the chassis and bodywork. The Cruisers started to crack in various spots, but that brilliant 4.2 never let us down. ( the stiff after market suspension didn't help )
I only use original rubber bushes on my trucks, some of my customers run polybushes blue, which are ok and easy to fit.

Richard

Landcruisers will crack on central Australian roads no matter what suspension they use.

[PAT303]

Grimace get to the point,I'm sick of your long winded post's. Pat

[davros]

Interesting to note a certain landy after-market company in perth complete with poly equiped display chassis in the forecourt advised me to stick with OE rubber, and they specialise in the stuff! They did have some interesting wedge shaped dislocation "pads" rather than cones made of poly though.

One advantage of poly is the ability to put in into components easily as it often lacks a steel sleeve. But then it sounds like U'll be taking it out again sooner too!

Dave

[Grimace]

Grimace get to the point,I'm sick of your long winded post's. Pat

:D sorry

[Dougal]

IMO - Use OE bushes, not poly.

I'd much rather replace worn out rubber bushes than replace stress fractured suspension components.

My 2c

M

I don't see any pivot points on your average rangy/disco/landy where polybushes could make the difference between stress cracks and none.
None of them transmit vertical suspension loads.

I did for a nanosecond have poly bushes on my front shocks, before realising how stupid it was. The concern there wasn't cracking the chassis, it was bending the mounting pins.

[Grimace]

I don't see any pivot points on your average rangy/disco/landy where polybushes could make the difference between stress cracks and none.
None of them transmit vertical suspension loads.

I did for a nanosecond have poly bushes on my front shocks, before realising how stupid it was. The concern there wasn't cracking the chassis, it was bending the mounting pins.

Pin mounts into chassis would be the main one.
Secondly would be the radius arms as the less load taken up between the flex in the bushes on the front diff means more load transfered into the dif housing.

And yes most definately on shock mounts - NO GOOD.

[furianer]

Landcruisers will crack on central Australian roads no matter what suspension they use.

tell me about it, i did my fair share of welding on cruisers, axle casings, chassis, window frames, inner wings battery trays the list goes on, but still love the 4.2;), even if it doesn't match the fuel consumption of a 300tdi.

Richard

[JohnE]

Funny how poly bushes upset the original configuration of vehs,
I have done a bit of front end work ,the past couple of months on the batmobile,
it is so hard to find rubber as replacements. did the upper control arm bushes and all i could find were poly ones, eventually I found rubber ones, same for the torsion bar rubbers, poly everywhere.
even the suspension blokes I tried told me, to use rubber unless I wanted the vehicle to feel like a brick bouncing on the road, they reckoned poly didn;t have the same 'give' as rubber.

my 5 cents worth.



john

[rick130]

Funny how poly bushes upset the original configuration of vehs,
I have done a bit of front end work ,the past couple of months on the batmobile,
it is so hard to find rubber as replacements. did the upper control arm bushes and all i could find were poly ones, eventually I found rubber ones, same for the torsion bar rubbers, poly everywhere.
even the suspension blokes I tried told me, to use rubber unless I wanted the vehicle to feel like a brick bouncing on the road, they reckoned poly didn;t have the same 'give' as rubber.

my 5 cents worth.



john

and again I say it depends on the durometer of the material.
Most poly bushes are designed for a 'sporty' or 'performance' feel, hence they are stiffer than stock and usually unsuitable for a 4WD.

Having talked a number of times to the engineers at Fulcrum/Super Pro, they are aware of how 4WD's are used and formulate the material accordingly. They then test them, and in the case of Land Rovers it is via a well known Land Rover workshop down the road that does everything from tourers to comp vehicles to rock crawlers.
I still maintain that the Super Pro lower rear trailing arm-chassis bush is the best available for an A frame coil rear end Landy. The design is so much better than OE in that it reduces bump steer while allowing better articulation.
I'll dig up a photo tonight.

[PAT303]

Rick have you got them fitted to your truck?How much and were from?.I have noticed that the fender ''skittles'' across dirt roads where the disco that has rubber bushes is alot more stable.I'm starting to agree about the hardness of poly is upsetting the back end big time. Pat

[Dougal]

Pin mounts into chassis would be the main one.
Secondly would be the radius arms as the less load taken up between the flex in the bushes on the front diff means more load transfered into the dif housing.

And yes most definately on shock mounts - NO GOOD.

By pin mounts you mean the front radius arms and rear lower arm mounts?
These don't take any significant vertical load. Horizontal the biggest ones are braking, unless you're driving into square edged ditches at speed.

If you're doing that then the difference in elasticity between rubber and poly isn't your biggest concern.

[BigJon]

Funny how poly bushes upset the original configuration of vehs,
I have done a bit of front end work ,the past couple of months on the batmobile,
it is so hard to find rubber as replacements. did the upper control arm bushes and all i could find were poly ones, eventually I found rubber ones, same for the torsion bar rubbers, poly everywhere.
even the suspension blokes I tried told me, to use rubber unless I wanted the vehicle to feel like a brick bouncing on the road, they reckoned poly didn;t have the same 'give' as rubber.

my 5 cents worth.



john

Both my Kingswood utes have had aftermarket poly type bushes right through the suspnsion and I never thought the ride was too harsh or it was wearing / damaging components. Horses for courses I guess. My Rangie has all genuine LR rubber bushes.

[rick130]

Rick have you got them fitted to your truck?How much and were from?.I have noticed that the fender ''skittles'' across dirt roads where the disco that has rubber bushes is alot more stable.I'm starting to agree about the hardness of poly is upsetting the back end big time. Pat

yep, check my earlier post in this thread ;)

Skittishness is usually a spring/shock miss-match issue or just worn out shocks. Big difference in rear spring rates 'tween a Disco and 'fender.

[rick130]

Click here for distributors. http://www.fulcrumsuspensions.com.au/fulcrum.html
Do a ring around too, prices can vary quite a bit.
Can't find any piccies ATM so will take a couple tomorrow.

This is what I wrote on LR4x4 forum two years ago. Add another 50,000km to that figure now.

"I've also found that Fulcrum Suspensions, the manufacturer of Super Pro bushes here in Oz make a superior designed bush that will totally outlast the OE one. Yes it is urethane, but it is the only spot I will use a poly type bush, and the Super Pro one uses heavier thickness plates (so the don't bow/bend with the load) and use a circumferal groove and chamfers around the OD of the bush to allow it to flex/articulate (more than the OE bush) without stressing the bush material, yet the actual compression characteristics are better than OE, reducing the dreaded rear steer.
They've been in my 130 for around 80,000km now."

[camel_landy]

and again I say, depends on the bush, depends on the durometer (hardness).

Fine if you want to go softer but most people want stiffer. Thing is, how do you know when 'stiffer' is just too stiff? At least with OE parts, you know that many thousands of KM have been driven to work out the best compound.

M

[JohnE]

Both my Kingswood utes have had aftermarket poly type bushes right through the suspnsion and I never thought the ride was too harsh or it was wearing / damaging components. Horses for courses I guess. My Rangie has all genuine LR rubber bushes.

yes i just read what rick wrote and its all super pro stuff i have found everywhere,
i think i will give them a go based on what he has said and when I get to doing the rear arms.


john

[dungarover]

Poly bushes and Land Rovers DON'T MIX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Panhard rod is the only pace to put poly in a LR, anywhere else is a disaster :eek::eek:

Had them in the past and never again, thay fall apart after a few off-road trips because they're too brittle, also it's complete crap thet they can last as long as rubber. I had the top rear shockie mounts wear out after 2 trips, falling to pieces :mad::mad:

May I add the hardness of poly bushes make the suspension too stiff. If you want stiff suspension, buy Toyota or a Nissan :wasntme:

Trav

[Dougal]

Poly bushes and Land Rovers DON'T MIX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Panhard rod is the only pace to put poly in a LR, anywhere else is a disaster :eek::eek:

Had them in the past and never again, thay fall apart after a few off-road trips because they're too brittle, also it's complete crap thet they can last as long as rubber. I had the top rear shockie mounts wear out after 2 trips, falling to pieces :mad::mad:

May I add the hardness of poly bushes make the suspension too stiff. If you want stiff suspension, buy Toyota or a Nissan :wasntme:

Trav

So given your absolute certainty that poly doesn't last. How do you explain my front radius arm bushes that have done about 150,000km?
Rubber were lasting about 50,000km.

[rick130]

So given your absolute certainty that poly doesn't last. How do you explain my front radius arm bushes that have done about 150,000km?
Rubber were lasting about 50,000km.

the same with my rear trailing arm/chassis bushes.
OE were absolutely stuffed after about 80,000km, the poly ones are up to 150,000km now and appear to be fine.
I hate sweeping generalisations.

[rick130]

yes i just read what rick wrote and its all super pro stuff i have found everywhere,
i think i will give them a go based on what he has said and when I get to doing the rear arms.


john

A lot of poly bushes are also known to squeak like all buggery if either insufficient grease was used on install, or the grease has washed out. For this reason I've always disliked using poly in a rotating bush and have always tried to use OE. Their forte appears to be compression.
Having said that I broke my own rule and I'm really pleased with the poly bushes I fitted on the chassis end of the A frame. Over 3 years and close to 100,000km later and not a sound. Yep, Super Pro, but I did use a pretty trick synthetic/moly grease too. ;)

I run a mix of OE rubber, Super Pro poly and Haultech bushes (?? material), sort of what I consider the best for my purposes in each spot.

20 years ago I used Nolathane in a Jeep CJ6 and it was a disaster. The bush size was too small, the hardness too high.
It bound the poor little leaves up and they lasted all of 4 months. I went back to OE rubber a little wiser.

What I've found with most poly bush manufacturers is that they copy the OE bush in a harder durometer material. If the bush was a bit marginal in design to start with (eg. rear trailing arm/chassis) it becomes even worse.
It's just a shame everyone tars them all with the same brush

[procrastination inc]

Fitting superpros to my disco today.

The axle end of the lower tailing arm are particularly nice.

They have a knurled bore to hold the grease and grooves externally to do the same. They are two piece bushes with a little clearance between them. I wondered if a grease nipple in the bottom of the trailing arm would help to keep them fresh. probably get clobbered off road though

[Bigbjorn]

I have used polyurethane bushes in virtually every suspension I have overhauled that could use them ever since they became available. Never had one that was not improved in respect to steering, handling, and durability. Yes, you MAY have increased noise and harshness, but if the car has sufficient distance on it to require a suspension overhaul, it is going to be rattley anyhow and not just suspension. I defy the average driver to be able to tell a poly fitted car from a rubbered one.

[procrastination inc]

Trailing arms done.

notice a few more rattles from the body.

Steering is vaguely less vague, need to chase the front end I think.

[Dave110HardTop]

Having talked a number of times to the engineers at Fulcrum/Super Pro, they are aware of how 4WD's are used and formulate the material accordingly. They then test them, and in the case of Land Rovers it is via a well known Land Rover workshop down the road that does everything from tourers to comp vehicles to rock crawlers.
I still maintain that the Super Pro lower rear trailing arm-chassis bush is the best available for an A frame coil rear end Landy. The design is so much better than OE in that it reduces bump steer while allowing better articulation.
I'll dig up a photo tonight.

Hi Rick,

Any idea where these can be sourced?

cheers

Dave

[Dougal]

Hi Rick,

Any idea where these can be sourced?

cheers

Dave

Supercheap in NZ have them, I'd expect supercheap in Aussie would too.

[abaddonxi]

Hi Rick,

Any idea where these can be sourced?

cheers

Dave

I called Supercheap and they didn't have much of an idea. I then called the Fulcrum wholesale number (from the website), place in Penrith, very easy to deal with and they will post for another $10 or so.

Cheers
Simon

[Lucus]

I have a set of deflex Poly bushes that i got from Paddock spares in the UK. They have two sets, a road set which is the same durometer hardness as a stock metalastic and a off road set which is harder. I will fit these in the next few week and report back. ( i got the road set)


for what its worth if they turn out to be a good thing they where less then $200 delivered to my door including a new set of sway bar bushes.

[Slunnie]

Poly bushes and Land Rovers DON'T MIX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Panhard rod is the only pace to put poly in a LR, anywhere else is a disaster :eek::eek:

Had them in the past and never again, thay fall apart after a few off-road trips because they're too brittle, also it's complete crap thet they can last as long as rubber. I had the top rear shockie mounts wear out after 2 trips, falling to pieces :mad::mad:

May I add the hardness of poly bushes make the suspension too stiff. If you want stiff suspension, buy Toyota or a Nissan :wasntme:

Trav
Polybushes are the only bushes that I can make last in my shock absorbers for the D2 (revalved a lot stiffer). I've tried rubber and they don't last long at all before wearing through - Approx 10,000km. I've also tried Rose joints and they last about 6 months before becoming clicky. I've got the blue Superpro's in at the moment and I think they also have some wear in them, but the red Rancho ones have copped an absolute flogging and are absolutely faultless.

[rick130]

I called Supercheap and they didn't have much of an idea. I then called the Fulcrum wholesale number (from the website), place in Penrith, very easy to deal with and they will post for another $10 or so.

Cheers
Simon

that'd be Steve at Wholesale Suspension. They know their stuff and are good to deal with.
He was the first installer/supplier I'd talked to that confirmed what I'd found playing with urethane bushes.

[Slunnie]

I've found wholesale suspension to be very good also. They were the ones that also worked out that LC shims will work in the Disco for me many eons ago.

[mcrover]

Ive always stuck with rubber for the reason of noise.

The 80 series had poly bushes throught the whole thing and it was the noisiest suspention ever and annoyed the crap out of me.

They may have changed a fair bit since then but thats my 2 bobs worth.

[rick130]

Ive always stuck with rubber for the reason of noise.

The 80 series had poly bushes throught the whole thing and it was the noisiest suspention ever and annoyed the crap out of me.

They may have changed a fair bit since then but thats my 2 bobs worth.

urethane bush + pivoting/rotating joint + lack of grease (eventually gets washed out ) = squeak big time

[JDNSW]

urethane bush + pivoting/rotating joint + lack of grease (eventually gets washed out ) = squeak big time

With any bush material the idea is that rotation is accommodated by flexing of the material.

With the rubber bushes this is ensured (in theory at least) by the rubber being vulcanised to the steel sleeves, with the outer sleeve pressed in and the inner sleeve clamped. Problems arise if the sleeve is not secure. This is rare for the outer sleeve, not uncommon for the inner. Another potential problem is clamping the inner sleeve with the suspension not in its normal position. Any of these problems will cause rapid failure of the bush, either by breaking the bond to the sleeve or by wearing through the inner sleeve.

With polyurethane bushes, the clamping is applied direct to the polyurethane bush and expands the bush normal to that direction to give sufficient pressure on both the bolt and the hole in the suspension component to prevent movement between the metal components and the bush. Movement will take place if the clamping is inadequate due to poor installation, earlier wear on the metal bits, or deterioration of the polyurethane.

As with the rubber bushes, if this movement occurs, it will cause problems. The first thing noticed will be noise, but movement will cause wear on the metal surfaces, which is not a good idea, as while the bolt is easily replaced, the bit on the outside, and the cheek pieces doing the clamping are not that easy or cheap to replace. This wear will continue for a long time before the bush actually deteriorates to the extent that free play is present and handling deteriorates. In this sense the poly bushes are more durable.

John

[rick130]

Fine in theory John, in practice a poly bush rotates on it's crush sleeves. It's for this reason that some manufacturers turn helix's on the poly surface where it rotates to retain grease, and on some bushes, eg. shackle bushes, they use hollow pins, grease nipples and a turned bush inner surface to accommodate regular greasing. ARB use this system, as do TJM and Super Pro.

[JDNSW]

Fine in theory John, in practice a poly bush rotates on it's crush sleeves. It's for this reason that some manufacturers turn helix's on the poly surface where it rotates to retain grease, and on some bushes, eg. shackle bushes, they use hollow pins, grease nipples and a turned bush inner surface to accommodate regular greasing. ARB use this system, as do TJM and Super Pro.

Yes, and this highlights the major problem with polybushes! The elastomeric bushes were invented about seventy years ago to get away from chassis bearings that needed regular greasing (which they didn't get) and which used the surfaces of the major suspension components as bearing surfaces, resulting in expensive repairs when worn, which was often. By going back to bearings that need regular greasing you are going back seventy years. The only advance is that the parts that wear are replaceable - provided that the bush rotates on the crush sleeve as intended.

John

[rick130]

yes, and the major reason why I don't like urethane in a rotating bush.
I reckon they are great in compression.

[Dougal]

The only place I have poly bushes that sees any rotation is the panhard rod. The rotation isn't great.

I've had poly's in there for about 2 years and a year ago took one of the crush sleeves out. I can tell you they don't come willingly. It was tight enough for me believe there's no rotation there, it's taken up in flex inside the bush.

[JDNSW]

The only place I have poly bushes that sees any rotation is the panhard rod. ......

There is more rotation than on the panhard rod on:-

1. Front bushes of the A-frame
2. Rear bushes on the rear lower link.
3. All bushes on leaf springs.

Certainly the other bushes have less rotation, and there is less objection to the use of polyurethane bushes in these locations - the main objections will relate to the vexed question of whether you want to modify the original suspension characteristics or not.

John

[Dougal]

There is more rotation than on the panhard rod on:-

1. Front bushes of the A-frame
2. Rear bushes on the rear lower link.
3. All bushes on leaf springs.

Certainly the other bushes have less rotation, and there is less objection to the use of polyurethane bushes in these locations - the main objections will relate to the vexed question of whether you want to modify the original suspension characteristics or not.

John

Funnily enough, there are two reasons I run poly bushes in my front radius arms. The first is longevity, metalastic ones kept chewing out in short order. The second is the needed extra roll stiffness in the front.
My vehicle is tailhappy enough to be fun with poly bushes in the radius arms, was tailhappy enough to be scary without.

[rrturboD]

12 months ago I replaced rubber bushes throughout my RRC with Noltec (blue) offerings. I had used poly bushes on another rangie and found the change from rubber to poly was quite noticable, particularly more noise and less articulation, but they lasted forever!
I have found the Noltec bushes as good if not better than the rubber, certainly easier to fit, and the before and after ramp tests etc showed similar results, given the rubber were well all worn, I was happy with that. I have since supplied a couple of local 4x4 owners with Noltec stuff. One was replacing SuperPro and the other original rubber. Reports have been positive, in that they have kept replacing other bushes etc. In the beginning Noltec was sold to me as being same softness etc as rubber, and from my experience I would agree with their claim.