ZF Auto can't take Toyota 1KZ Turbodiesel ??

[oldturkey]

Ref:"Wild Disco Transplant,Nov 11"
My mechanic says he has tried several times mating the ZF autobox to the Toyota 1KZ engine. RESULT: box destroyed in about 6 months.
Could this be due to the early torque peak of this 4cyl engine?
Having recently seen a ZF box stripped down, I was amazed at both it's complexity, and the flimsyness of the components.
I have kept the old ZF and LR transfer box in store, in the hope that one day I can restore the full time 4wd system

[mcrover]

Ref:"Wild Disco Transplant,Nov 11"
My mechanic says he has tried several times mating the ZF autobox to the Toyota 1KZ engine. RESULT: box destroyed in about 6 months.
Could this be due to the early torque peak of this 4cyl engine?
Having recently seen a ZF box stripped down, I was amazed at both it's complexity, and the flimsyness of the components.
I have kept the old ZF and LR transfer box in store, in the hope that one day I can restore the full time 4wd system


Was it a V8 box or TDI box as the V8 boxes dont like the vibrations and have a few other mods for a bit more longevity but I dont know how they would take the Toy mota

[Dougal]

Is it possible to split the toyota auto from it's transfer and fit it to the LT230?

Are you guys running the 1KZ-TE? If so how are you controlling it?

[Hymie]

A mate of mine has a 300Tdi Auto on Gas.
It has chewed 3 Trannies in 5 months, the trannie bloke here in Warragul has refused to touch it again and won't warrant any work that has been done as he reakons the gas conversion makes the engine too torquey.

[Vern]

More like he's not building them right

[Slunnie]

I agree. It probably keeps frying itself. The ZF's with a lot of power respond well to an additional high pressure ATF cooler. Without it I doubt very much that my tranny would still be in 1 piece (TD5 w/ ZF 4HP22EH and approx 170kw/520Nm) without the additional cooler. The higher temps play absolute havoc with them.

[Disco_owner]

I'm sort of new to this idea but what's the gain from Marrying a ZF auto Trans with a Toyota 1KZ engine if you guys don't mind me asking?

[DirtyDawg]

I'm sort of new to this idea but what's the gain from Marrying a ZF auto Trans with a Toyota 1KZ engine if you guys don't mind me asking?
The gain is your Landy mates can't slag you off for not being 100% landrover and your Toyota mates can't slag off your landy.:)
Seriously
at:
1KZ-T

The 1KZ-T is an early version of 1KZ-TE, 2982 cc, 4 cylinders, SOHC, 2 valve per cylinder turbo diesel engine. Bore is 96 mm and stroke is 103 mm, with a compression ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio) of 21.2:1. Maximum output is 125 hp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower) (93 kW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt)) @ 3600 rpm and maximum torque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque) is 29.3 kgf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilogram-force)·m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre) (287 N·m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_metre)) @ 2000 rpm.
I can't see the benefit but each to his own.

[oldturkey]

A mate of mine has a 300Tdi Auto on Gas.
It has chewed 3 Trannies in 5 months, the trannie bloke here in Warragul has refused to touch it again and won't warrant any work that has been done as he reakons the gas conversion makes the engine too torquey.

1/Is the "Trannie" you're referring to the Transfer Box or the Auto Box?

2/The Toyota 1KZ engine has problems with both.
3/When the Toyota engine And Toyota Auto box are mated to the LR Transfer box, the adaptor (male) shaft chews up the splines in the input gear.
The shaft has to be custom made, because the OE shaft is made to fit the ZF auto, and the Toyota auto has a larger output shaft.
4/I am uncertain if the custom made shaft was the correct metal (possibly too hard) or if the machining was in-accurate. I also wonder if the join between the boxes was sufficiently rigid, leading to free play?
5/ If the ZF can "take" the Toyota engine, then the above problem is solved.
Thanks for your help.
Cheers, Joe

[mcrover]

I pose the same question again as "was it a V8 or a Diesel transmission" as they run a different gear train, main pump, main shaft and pump drive shaft which if you were running a V8 trans then the answer is No it would not be likely to last behind a diesel for very long.

The other question is how did you run the kick dwn cable as it is imperitive that they are run with the correct pressure on the kick down cable to supply line pressure which if not correct will also cause premature failure.

[Blknight.aus]

and on top of all that if you use the wrong torque converter for the power of the engine (in terms of peak torque, max rpms, max hp and how its all delivered curve wise) you can stress the auto more than it will like, couple to that a mal adjusted throttle pressure cable and im not surprised that hes killing autos, the tinyest bit of missalignment between the engine,TC and input of the TX is going to cause some big problems later on down the drive line.

If hes just bolting the TC to a flywheel (not a flex plate, theres a big thread on this elsewhere in the forum but trust me theres a difference) thats got its on inherent risks if its not micromillimeter accurate in its alignemnet. If a bit of grit has gotten itself into the box and gotten stuck somewhere where it can machine other parts out of spec thats going to shorten the life as well.

Theres a dozen reasons why an auto might die on an engine that it wasnt made for but as for it not being able to deal with the power output of the yota diesel, I wouldnt have thought that it was a fault of the box but something that was done incorrectly.

[mcrover]

and on top of all that if you use the wrong torque converter for the power of the engine (in terms of peak torque, max rpms, max hp and how its all delivered curve wise) you can stress the auto more than it will like, couple to that a mal adjusted throttle pressure cable and im not surprised that hes killing autos, the tinyest bit of missalignment between the engine,TC and input of the TX is going to cause some big problems later on down the drive line.

If hes just bolting the TC to a flywheel (not a flex plate, theres a big thread on this elsewhere in the forum but trust me theres a difference) thats got its on inherent risks if its not micromillimeter accurate in its alignemnet. If a bit of grit has gotten itself into the box and gotten stuck somewhere where it can machine other parts out of spec thats going to shorten the life as well.

Theres a dozen reasons why an auto might die on an engine that it wasnt made for but as for it not being able to deal with the power output of the yota diesel, I wouldnt have thought that it was a fault of the box but something that was done incorrectly.

Spot on....:D

[oldturkey]

First of all I would like to thank everyone for your detailed replies. The big picture is now coming into focus.
1/The ZF boxes would almost certainly come from V8s. There are very few Diesel Disco Mk1s in Thailand.
2/I was not aware of any major differences in V8 and Diesel transmissions, other than size of torque converter (this is new to me).
3/Interestingly, "Ashcroft Transmissions UK" who specialise in rebuilding ZF units, recommend using the larger V8 torque converter in Diesels, as the smaller one is inclined to slip during "lock-up", especialy if the engine has been "tweeked"
4/Bangkok, with it's heat and traffick jams, is a sure killing field for auto boxes. My ZF had a spiked pipe cooler in front of the rad; I believe that this was totally inadequate for tropical climate. My Toyota uses a "rad" type cooler. There are 70 odd of these conversions, mainly in Bangkok, and they seem very reliable, despite the fact that the T/Cs are working hard due to 22% increase in gearing.
5/Based on experience, I believe that the increased gearing (overloading the T/C) is a major cause of the poor m.p.g., I used to operate an MF loader (similar to JCB) with T/C transmission. It would load all day in the field on 4or5 gallons of fuel (low gear work), but travelling on the road (high gear) it would rapidly empty the tank, and produce plumes of black smoke.
6/I am now considering replacing my Disco axles with Toyota, which will bring the gearing back to normal, and also provide FW front hubs. FUEL IS TOO DEAR TO WASTE, even @30Baht / litre
7/Used Toyota parts from Japan are plentiful and fairly cheap here (unlike LR parts!)
8/Incidently, the 1KZ-T motor has electronic fuel control, with air temp. and boost pressure sensors.
Cheers,
Joe

[Dougal]

What method have you used to increase the gearing?

[oldturkey]

The gearing has been raised accidentaly as a result of mixing LR and Toyota components, which are not really compatible.
The LR Transfer Box has a 22% reduction (1.22:1) and drives through a 3.54:1 Differential.
The Toyota Transfer Box is direct drive (1:1) and Toyota Diffs normaly 4.1:1.
The end result is about the same.
I currently have a Toyota (part time 4wd) Transfer Box driving LR axles

The ultimate solution to my problem is to reinstate the original LR Transfer Box, but I am unable to find anyone here who can do a sustainable job.
I BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE MANY CAPABLE ENGINEERING SHOPS IN OZ.
MAYBE SOMEONE CAN SUPPLY A QUALITY CUSTOM MADE ADAPTOR SHAFT TO COUPLE THE TOYOTA AUTO-BOX TO THE L.R. TRANSFER BOX ?
Can the box flanges be redrilled, or is an adaptor plate necessary?
Cheers,
Joe

[sclarke]

So its a Toyo engine and transfer but ZF Auto?
And your going to put Toyo diffs in it??

Ive got a great idea....
Sell it as land fill and just buy a Toyo............... your halfway there now

[rovercare]

So its a Toyo engine and transfer but ZF Auto?
And your going to put Toyo diffs in it??

Ive got a great idea....
Sell it as land fill and just buy a Toyo............... your halfway there now

Always constructive advice when it comes to conversions steve:p

[sclarke]

Always constructive advice when it comes to conversions steve:p

Yep, i'm open to conversions, but if the whole driveline will be Toyo, why keep the poorly built LR body???

[rovercare]

Yep, i'm open to conversions, but if the whole driveline will be Toyo, why keep the poorly built LR body???

Why put Zebra stripes on your Defender??

Because you want to;)

[oldturkey]

In reply to certain remarks about "landfill":
The Discovery is a classic car, and has more style (both inside and out) than ANYTHING the Japs ever built.
My Discovery is now almost 14 years old and covered about 230,000km, and the body is in excellent condition, except for the plastic door bins.
A Nissan Patrol of similar vintage would have probably been recycled (again) already.
Discovery's offroad and towing capability is well proven, and it is a very comfortable long range vehicle.
The only reason I have opted for used Jap parts, is that living in Asia it is by far the most economical and practical solution.

[sclarke]

Why put Zebra stripes on your Defender??

Because you want to;)

Thats nothing to do with the Build quality of a Rover.
Its just like paint. All i was saying is the Driveline will be Toyo, nothing wrong with that, But as the Rover bodys is poorly constructed and the fitment of the panels and trim is as bad is it gets, then why keep the body. Im sure a 80 series or similar would be better and a cheaper option.

I buy rovers for one reason. I love quirky and Non Std cars. Volvo, Austin 1800, Land Rover, Saab, Morris mini's.... list goes on....
Only had 2 falcons that i payed for and one was a classic, ok i have had 2 toyota's, but i got out of them as they were leaf spring trucks.....

Just my 30c (less than a phone call)

[dobbo]

Surely a manual conversion or running multiple Oil coolers and a bigger sump on the gearbox would be a lot cheaper option than a Toyota/Land Rover hybrid vehicle.