Air vs Coils

[JeremyB]

Thinking of buying a D3 for touring and towing a 2 ton offroad van. It needs to be able to get into National Parks but probably won't go rock crawling just for the sake of it.

Is there a consensus view on Air vs Coils for towing? I'd heard (from a sales guy!!!) that the coils were much better.

Also the air suspension model I drove had a lot of float. The Terrain Response was in the onroad position but the air suspension lever was in the raised position. Does the TR override this lever - or was it in the wrong setting for road driving? Again - couldn't get any sense from the sales guy.

Thanks in advance for any advice.



Jeremy

[WhiteD3]

If you can afford it, go for the air/TR. The ride's excellent both on and off road, and personally I don't think there's any float. I had 7 blokes in it the other night for quite a long trip out to dinner and they were all impressed by the ride quality.

The TR with all the driver aids will certainly make touring a lot safer.

Living and working in the city, I find the access height button extremely useful for UG carparks.

There's a thread in here somewhere (pre the D3 zone) about a guy with a coil sprung D3 who got a front bar, then had to get better springs to hold the front of the car up!

Cheers.

[JeremyB]

Any suggestion the TR gets confused with a van behind?

[Bushwanderer]

Hi All,
It looks like my D3 (with TDV6, manual & coils) will be the base from which all other D3s will be compared.

Bring it on! :)

[101RRS]

For the class of vehicle the D3 with coils has relatively poor ground clearance - little better than my Freelander.

Definintely go the air suspension - ride is better and you get the ground clearance appropriate to the offroad requirements. When jacked up a air suspension D3 far superior ground clearance than the coil version.

Garry

[JeremyB]

Garry
Thanks for this .. confirms what we had thought.

Our problem is that neither of us like the ride in the air suspended models. Its fine from behind the wheel - but in the passenger seat both felt it would be easy to get car sick. Plus the slight question mark on reliability.

Went back and drove both models again to make sure - and then drove the new LC200 which has a good ride as well as excellent ground clearance and 50% more torque. Also has Bluetooth as standard plus Hayman Reece compatable towing kit. Price is a bit of a premium - less so when you take the cost of a larger tank and wheel carrier into account.

Its looking like it'll get the nod.


Jeremy

[WhiteD3]

Garry
Its fine from behind the wheel - but in the passenger seat both felt it would be easy to get car sick. Plus the slight question mark on reliability.

Jeremy

Jeremy, I recently did a trip to Canarvon Gorge with my two boys, one of which is prone to car sickness on windy roads. Over the 1800k round trip they took turns in the front seat with no probs at all. My Mrs is also not keen on car travel but loves the ride of the D3.

Re the air suspension reliability; if you read through the many posts on the subject you'll find that there were a (very) few probs early on but not now. I've got the 2007 model, done 16k with no issues. There's others on the forum who've done 80k+ and will tell you the same.

Also, I've been on a few clubs trips this year and everyone comments how good the D3 is when it lifts its skirt (so to speak) to climb or clamber over obstacles.

Cheers.

[101RRS]

Garry
Went back and drove both models again to make sure - and then drove the new LC200
Its looking like it'll get the nod.
Jeremy

Hmmm - you might want to look into this a bit more - the 200 series is getting quite a bit of a caneing on other 4wd forums and it is mainly coming from Toyota drivers and is not the usual inter-brand rivalry.

garry

[gghaggis]

Jeremy,

There is no comparison - air all the way. I don't understand the 'ride sickness"?? I have a disabled daughter who's quite susceptible to motion sickeness, and for her the D3 on air is the best thing since sliced bread. Perhaps it was not set up right, or the tre pressures were wrong?

And the LC200? Had a good look at it at the 4wd show - bulky, heavy, average articulation and no more room inside than an LC100. The LC100 V8 is probably a better off-road machine. And still not up to D3 standards!

Cheers,

Gordon

Cheers,

Gordon

[JeremyB]

Garry
Most of the stuff I've seen on the LC200 in other forums is of the 'doesn't have a live front axle' or 'real 4wd's have wind up windows' variety. Is there anything I'm missing?

No issue with people who are OK with the air ride. Just the way it seemed to both of us and confirmed by the 2nd test drive. We also confirmed that you get what Landrover give you - no sport mode or any other option.

Remember - our #1 requirement is to tow a 2 ton van. See the Overlander tow test where there were clearly some initial problems with the air suspension. However the comments here are consistent - the D3 & air should be inseperable.

This post also doesn't fill one with confidence:
http://forums.overlander.com.au/viewtopic.php't=51182




Jeremy

[101RRS]

As I said - do your research - up to you but for every post of thread on the other forums complaining about Landrovers there are far more complaining about their Toyotas and Nissans.

While not a 200 series my brother had a 2002 100 series with IFS and it was towed twice due to front suspension failures.

Your choice, obviously you need to buy what you think is appropriate.

Good luck with yiour decision.

Garry

[JeremyB]

Garry
Appreciate your help and advice.

You can't actually research LC200 reliability so the only basis of a decision is the driving experience and reputation. I certainly wouldn't touch a LC100 with a barge pole; its slow, uses more fuel & doesn't stop. The coil Disco is a far better drive IMHO.

Would also choose Landrover for the sales performance - much more polished. Can't believe what a turnoff Toyota sales staff are ... try to close before they find out what you want & few know their product.

But - why don't you go and drive LC200 and make the comparison?



Jeremy

[Forest]

Have we considered that the vehicle you are testing in is faulty? D3's have harmonic balances at the back of the vehicle. These ensure the smooth and non-motion sickness status on the ride of the D3. If they are not working correctly this may be the cause of what is being felt.

Like others that have posted already, SWMBO is very prone to motion sickness, and since the D3, no issues. No other 4x4 that I have been in, has the same ability of both on road comfort and road holding, and off road ability, in my 'umble opinion. This combination is what is so good about the D3.

Air, and therefore Terrain Response, all the way.

[JeremyB]

Forest
We drove 2 vehicles from 2 different dealerships over different roads. If they were both faulty then I should be seriously worried!!

The car was brilliant over speed bumps - much better than the LC200 - but it was the smooth road performance which was the problem. Even in this country, you do spend more time on smooth roads than on dirt.

The biggest problem is there is no potential for a fix as the system has zero adjustment. At least with coils you can easily modfiy.

Jeremy

[gghaggis]

Not quite true, although commonly perceived as such. There's a fair scope for adjustment, it's just that most new car owners don't really want to fiddle with their car because of possible warranty issues (and the same is true for new coil-based cars).

For instance, one can change the dampers (pricey, but possible) for a German sports set, adjust the height sensor arms, change tyre size, do a body lift (so the Yanks claim anyway). What more would you _want_ to do?

Many of us have driven the stock car (some towing campers, caravans) across the Gunbarrel, Canning Stock Route, the Kimberlies, the heart of the Pilbara - all pretty demanding territories - without any major issues or concerns.

Cheers,

Gordon

[101RRS]

Garry
But - why don't you go and drive LC200 and make the comparison?Jeremy

Jeremy,

I think I would rather drive my 1957 Series 1 to Darwin and back with the top down and no ear muffs than drive a Toyota LC 200 around the block :p

Garry

[garryc]

Garry
Thanks for this .. confirms what we had thought.

Our problem is that neither of us like the ride in the air suspended models. Its fine from behind the wheel - but in the passenger seat both felt it would be easy to get car sick. Plus the slight question mark on reliability.

Went back and drove both models again to make sure - and then drove the new LC200 which has a good ride as well as excellent ground clearance and 50% more torque. Also has Bluetooth as standard plus Hayman Reece compatable towing kit. Price is a bit of a premium - less so when you take the cost of a larger tank and wheel carrier into account.

Its looking like it'll get the nod.


Jeremy

The D3 air suspension has a feature called ARM(Active Roll Mitigation) which stops body roll when cornering, so you shouldn't get carsick. I told the salesman they should call it Active Roll Suspension Engineering:D:D As with ACE on the D2 it is a great idea:p

[Jamo]

All I can say, JeremyB, is are you sure you test drove a D3?

carsickness? Poor smooth road performance? Can't have been a D3. In two years and 106000km, I've never experienced either.

[JeremyB]

Followed an HSE down Windsor Road yesterday and you could see the thing moving around on its suspension ... plain weird. And that's on a brand new road surface without any bumps or anything.

It's clearly not for us ... we ordered a LC200.


Jeremy

[101RRS]

Followed an HSE down Windsor Road yesterday and you could see the thing moving around on its suspension ... plain weird. And that's on a brand new road surface without any bumps or anything.

It's clearly not for us ... we ordered a LC200.


Jeremy

I think that is what you wanted to do all along - good luck with it :)

[JeremyB]

Garry
No - wouldn't have asked the question on the forum.

Had a prejudice against Toyota ... just from walking into any dealership ... treat everybody like wood ducks.

I'd never driven a Cruiser that I liked, and wasn't too afraid to buy British - we have owned a succession of Lotus.

Thanks for all your help ... see you guys on the road sometime.



Jeremy

[D3Jon]

"Float" on a D3 with air suspension - sorry, but that's plain rubbish. If you drove the first one with the air suspension fully raised (at the off-road height) then that would certainly account for it, but you clearly didn't get above 50kmh which is the speed at which the air suspension will lower to normal level - in the interests of safety. The Terrain Response (TR) knob setting of "normal / on-road" will not affect the suspension height setting in the circumstances you describe, so if the suspension setting was at "off-road" height then that's probably what you test drove it in.

Perhaps when you drove the 2nd car you were looking for the same "fault"; it's human nature. Similar to when you hear an unusual engine noise on a new car and you focus on it, so you're sure it's getting worse!!

These cars work great on the road, I can honestly say that for a 2.7 Tonne vehicle they handle amazingly well and eat up twisty roads - cornering flat with no wallow.

I had a good look over the LC200 at the Perth 4x4 show last weekend as I'm due to change my car soon.

What put me off was the cramped interior, Toyota have squeezed massive leather "armchairs" in the front with a huge centre console, it made a big car seem small inside. It also seemed cramped in the rear (2nd row seats) with intrusive styling where the sides curve into the roof. The 3rd row seats take up most of the rear luggage space and tilt up & sideways like in a D2 (so there's progress for you), they too would not look out of place in a Harvey Norman furniture showroom, so even when out of the way they are enormous.

I'm not even going to comment on the LC200's exterior rear end styling, other than to say it's the single biggest reason I wouldn't be getting one.

In fairness, I do like the front end styling of it though and love the new V8 Diesel :D

[Forest]

For Jeremy and any others considering a D3, in fairness, it is important to get a good test drive of the D3. It does get taking used to, but once hooked....

I took the D3 out for 3 hours the first time, and 4 the second, and this is why I now own one (took it through the car wash before returning the second time :eek: !!!!). A D3 is not a car to test drive with a Salesman sitting next to you. I took the car everywhere I could think of with SWMBO keen to prove the choice a bad one. She loves it as much as I do now. Only problem...... She wants her own now!!!!!!

Wonder if I can get a test drive like I got in the D3 in a LC 200? hmmmm.....

[JeremyB]

The LC200 2nd row seats are movable fore and aft. Its not on the brochures but I got a copy of the salesman's DVD training material. Could explain the reason for thinking the 2nd row was cramped.

Styling is a personal thing. I liked the D3 - wife thought it looked like a hearse esp in black. The LC200 looks like the designer played around with the LC100 and quickly gave up. You also cannot see the edge of the bonnet on the passenger side which will not help offroad - but expect one will get used to this. I don't like the front end that much - but you won't be able to see it behind the bull bar and driving lights. I'm OK with the rear and the spoiler should make a nice weather shield for the reversing camera.

On the interior the leather on the D3 is a plus - and you cannot readily change the LC seats as they have side airbags fitted. For us the Bluetooth is a big plus - and in this day and age when everybody has a telephone should not be an extra on the D3.

The 3rd row seats will be coming out and we will have to make a cargo blind as Toyota amazingly still do not fit one ... and can't because of the 3rd row seat height.

Think we should all agree to differ on the air suspension. I'm happy that I researched it properly and after many years in motorsport am used to analysing car behaviour. The KDSS - for us - is the better solution.

The D3 just does not get off the line. Suspect this is engine management limiting torque at take off. May be a benefit offroad, but is a real pain on road and makes the D3 feel sluggish and slow.

Ultimately though - you can't argue with 650nm of torque and a huge 139 litre tank when your primary requirement is to two a 2 ton van!



Jeremy

[Jamo]

If the D3 is cold, the engine ecu will prevent fast take-off. Furthermore, the car is adaptive. It learns driving style. If you want quicker acceleration, then you need to accelerate hard a few times first to get the system to learn you now want speed.

Alternatively, pur her in 'Sand' mode and then use the command shift!:D

As for the LC200: HTere are rumours in abundance about melting cylinders; and the torque figures are being disputed.

If you decided about a D3 by following one down the road, then I'm with garry; you'd already made your mind up before you got here.

From which I can only draw one conclusion: Troll.