legally modifying cars

[dobbo]

A few threads have come up of late about the legallities of modifications. To perhaps remidy these problems and to give myself and others interested in venturing down this path some basic ideas and for future reference, I thought it may be advantagous to have a step to step guide on here for folks wondering what are the correct steps to take in performing such tasks in all states of Australia and national laws?

Example:

Does one sit down with the engineer first up and discuss the issues involved in performing the task at hand? How much is the average costs of such meetings? What sort of modifications require engineering, Helpful web links, books etc...

IMHO A thread of this level would be very informative, be a good learning tool and could be a good step in getting rid of the potentially dangerous vehicles driving around and inadvertedly being associated with our hobby/sport.

There are a few vehicle modders on the site how about some input guys?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

A few threads have come up of late about the legallities of modifications. ... Does one sit down with the engineer first up and discuss the issues involved in performing the task at hand? How much is the average costs of such meetings? What sort of modifications require engineering, Helpful web links, books etc...

You don't get out of an engineers office without paying several hundred dollars. By getting the engineer involved early you may avoid costly mistakes that have to be rectified at the end.

If what you plan are pretty standard certification wont be much of a problem, however it is wise to make contact with the engineer early as they may want to see welds etc before they are painted then they will want to see the finished product.

Diana

[LandyAndy]

In WA you are required to gain permission from Transport before starting.
Basically fill in a form telling them what you want to do.They then say yes or no and what conditions you need to follow.
I read in saturdays west the WA 4WD industry assoc is trying to get eastern states laws adopted here in relation to suspension lifts.
Over here its an engineer report and possible lane change test for anything over 50mm TOTAL.That includes a combination of wheels/tyres,suspension,body lift.
Fully engineered kits ex east are illegal here despite been accepted as a bolt on mod that only needs a pit inspection over east.The vehicle becomes illegal once entering WA!!!!!
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

In WA you are required to gain permission from Transport before starting.
Basically fill in a form telling them what you want to do.They then say yes or no and what conditions you need to follow.
I read in saturdays west the WA 4WD industry assoc is trying to get eastern states laws adopted here in relation to suspension lifts.
Over here its an engineer report and possible lane change test for anything over 50mm TOTAL.That includes a combination of wheels/tyres,suspension,body lift.
Fully engineered kits ex east are illegal here despite been accepted as a bolt on mod that only needs a pit inspection over east.The vehicle becomes illegal once entering WA!!!!!
Andrew

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Fully engineered kits ex east are illegal here despite been accepted as a bolt on mod that only needs a pit inspection over east.The vehicle becomes illegal once entering WA!!!!!
Andrew
So much for national standards!

Even unregistered vehicle permits issued in NSW are legal in every state and territory except WA.

Has Western Australia succeeded from the Federation already?

[Slunnie]

Despite the NCOP Dobbo, there are differences in state rules as has already become apparent and this will cause a lot of confusion in these threads.

It's probably not a bad idea if you make it absolutely clear in the thread that this is for NSW only or whatever.

How have I done it previously and currently???

Know the guidelines back the front and inside out and work within them. If its something not commented on in the guidelines, then chat to the engineer that you want to certify... eg using airshocks instead of coils. Make sure everything is done to a high standard that you and the engineer will be happy with. Get the engineer to certify everything, even the stuff that does not specifically need certification.

One of the issues that I see, is that engineers are certifying vehicles which are still outside of the RTA guidelines. The owners think that the vehicles are all good due to the engineering, but the engineer has no authority to approve this. A great example is many of the trucks getting around with 5/6/7" suspension lifts. The guidelines state specifically that you can not lift by more than 1/3 metal to metal travel in the suspension, which is about 3" in a Discovery (which I personally have interpreted as being from the maximum ride height specification rather than delivery height - but this is no doubt debatable). Some Engineering signatories will approve a 5/6/7" lift.... but it is outside of their ability to do so according to the RTA and now NCOP.

[walker]

I am going through it at the moment in Victoria.

Because we dont have to get a roadworthy every year (only when you sell) engineering is not used as much down here, which also makes it a lot more expensive when you do do it.

I am engineering a Range Rover ute with max lift (150mm) and 33" tyres, 4.6 motor and lpg. All up it won't be much less than $2k.

Most important thing is to know what you plan to do before you start and then to go over it with the engineer before you do anything. He will tell you what he is happy with and what not. Take plenty of pics as you do the work so if there are any questions later on about what you did you will have evidence.

[sclarke]

What he said....

I have in the past caleld up Vic roads, got an Engineer who knows that type of car and then ask them what i can do. Give them an idea on what i want and then cough up lots of cash to have what i want engineered...

[Slunnie]

I am engineering a Range Rover ute with max lift (150mm) and 33" tyres, 4.6 motor and lpg.

Is that max lift 150mm and 33's or max lift 150mm with 33's?

[Vern]

I drove mine in, was told it was just to loud, got that fixed, took it back, paid $440 and got my certificate. This was for a R/Rover, holden 336 stroker, Turbo 400 and lift. Easy if all done right.

[Tote]

I'll tell my story of Engineers, not Land Rover related but the same principles hold true:
The plan, 1968 Falcon ute with a 351 Cleveland and Supra 5 speed. Nothing too radical, but as XT Utes did not have floor shifts that meant an engineer's certificate for the hole in the floor, all other work was bolt in using factory parts except for the gearbox crossmember which was from Castlemaine Rod shop.

First visit to engineer "A" resulted in a conversation that extended many thousands of dollars beyond my budget with talk of fully seam welding the front end and re engineering the seat belt mounting points. When I pointed out I thought he was a bit over the top he started making veiled threats such as "be careful, you've exposed your vehicle to an engineer now, if you do any mods without me you might be in trouble..."

A bit disappointed I asked around and found engineer "B" who thought my ideas were good but talked about charging $2000 for approving the work.

Eventually I found engineer "C" who was located some distance away but had a trip planned to Canberra and was happy to work in with me and the shop doing the blueslip. He inspected the ute very thoroughly once it was bolted together, did noise tests on the exhausts and arranged that once I had rectified a couple of minor items to the mechanic's satisfaction he would post the engineering certificate to me. All for less than $500.00 including travel money.

I guess the moral of the story is to shop around and to remember that every engineer may be interpreting the rules differently.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Regards,
Tote

[T.D.5]

This subject is not easily covered in a couple of sentences - so this is a longish post.

My WB ute is a heavily modified custom. It was originally done by a popular magazine as a project car. I accquired it & made more mods. From my experiences I can advise the following:
1. Find out as much as you can about what the laws tolerate in your state.
2. Find a reputable & referenced engineer.
3. Be prepared to pay for the engineers expertice.
4. Listen thoroughly to the engineer as he knows the laws better than you will ever.
5. Talk with & visit others who have modded vehicles along the lines you intend.
6. Seek out & use commercially available "specialised" components & kit as liability is already tested & the product is proven. This also makes the engineers more comfortable in certifying a mod.
7. Decide if you want to do the work or a specialist should do it. Be patient & prepared to pay for good work. (its cheaper than trying to replace a life).
8. Take plenty of pictures. Even if the job is outsourced you will develop a close relationship with the fabricator / customiser - they encourage your participation & photo documenting the job(s). This too makes the engineer more comfortable in assesing his risk.
9. Be prepared to test & fail. Thats what customising is about. Test some more - until everyone is satisfied.
10. Be patient & prepared to invest time & money - repeatedly.
11. Dont lie to her indoors lest she never play in your ride. Rolling solo is no fun. This is probably rule # 1.

Overall I have had very positive experiences. My engineer knows my work & my contractors & our abilities. We work as a team. We talk constantly & dont get agro over things - now. Mis understandings in communication are the #1 project killer. If you dont understand something recall the fact that you have experts who are insured & working within a risk set as your paid advisors. If its a full custom as my ute was, from time to time take some time out, give all concerned a break & save few more bucks. After the break everybody looks forward to playing with your job again.

For the record my 83 WB ute has 14 engineered points & is basically a Group A race car under the WB shell. Totally modified from bumper to bumper.

Yes I have woes when I travel interstate (NSW origin) QLD & VIC big time. I carry a laminated copy of the 11 page engineers certificate on all drives. Most enforecemnt agencies accept it. I've have been cananried with the cert in hand. Some authorities just dont want you to return - but I always do.

My current Disco's modded with acceptable kit availalble ex retail austwide. I am planning a dubios exhaust though. (read no cat / resonator & 1 HP muffler) Thanks for the op to share knowledge & info Dobbo.:D:D:D

[T.D.5]

First visit to engineer "A" resulted in.... making veiled threats such as "be careful, you've exposed your vehicle to an engineer now, if you do any mods without me you might be in trouble..."

Regards,
Tote

Tote, there is a phone number generally in every state to which you can report engineers. In the shake up that resulted in national standards & engineers having to re-apply for their certification ( Govts effort to eradicate dodgy bribe taking enginners that were rogues in industry) the transport gestapo jump on these guys pronto. & so they should. I encourage anyone who has an unsavoury experience with a certified engineer, REPORT him/her. Nice ride BTW.

Cheers

[walker]

Is that max lift 150mm and 33's or max lift 150mm with 33's?


Max lift with 33's.

We can only have 150mm including all lifts and difference in tyres from standard.

[walker]

I think Tote brings up a really good point.

Shop around OR get an engineer who has been recommended by someone you know.

The engineer we are using is not cheap but he knows Rangies failty well and engineers all Andrews stuff at Les Richmond. Since I am using the Les Richmond extended shock mounts, body lift and ute kit, most of thestuff has laready passes his engineering.

PS. Tote - Your avatar is very disturbing, I keep finding myself staring at it. :angel:

[Disco_owner]

I'll tell my story of Engineers, not Land Rover related but the same principles hold true:
The plan, 1968 Falcon ute with a 351 Cleveland and Supra 5 speed. Nothing too radical, but as XT Utes did not have floor shifts that meant an engineer's certificate for the hole in the floor, all other work was bolt in using factory parts except for the gearbox crossmember which was from Castlemaine Rod shop.

First visit to engineer "A" resulted in a conversation that extended many thousands of dollars beyond my budget with talk of fully seam welding the front end and re engineering the seat belt mounting points. When I pointed out I thought he was a bit over the top he started making veiled threats such as "be careful, you've exposed your vehicle to an engineer now, if you do any mods without me you might be in trouble..."

A bit disappointed I asked around and found engineer "B" who thought my ideas were good but talked about charging $2000 for approving the work.

Eventually I found engineer "C" who was located some distance away but had a trip planned to Canberra and was happy to work in with me and the shop doing the blueslip. He inspected the ute very thoroughly once it was bolted together, did noise tests on the exhausts and arranged that once I had rectified a couple of minor items to the mechanic's satisfaction he would post the engineering certificate to me. All for less than $500.00 including travel money.

I guess the moral of the story is to shop around and to remember that every engineer may be interpreting the rules differently.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/


Regards,
Tote

Just a Slight Deviation from main Subject , mate! nice ute...

[Jeff]

I have a similar story to Tote getting my Suzuki Bandit and Sidecar registered in NSW.

I had a Vic engineering certificate but this was not deemed good enough. I went to several engineers who all wanted different things done, from X-raying welds just copying the Vic one all for an exorbitant price. They seemed to push the 'your kids safety is at stake' line, when the Victorian engineer was perfectly adequate.

Jeff

:rocket: