Run-in period

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Ron asked the question here
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/49025-delvac-1-pricing.html

but maybe this forum is a better place---

"Do I need to "run in" a rebuilt engine on conventional oil?
How long till I can swap over to synthetic?"

another question along the same lines--

"as all new engines are run in to a certain extent before installation,, can I switch to synthetic straight after delivery?"

[Blknight.aus]

nope you dont have to run in an engine on any special oil, If you wanted to you could run it in on synthetic....

I wouldnt tho just based on the cost of synthetic.

A brand new engine in a brand new car will want a couple of early oilchanges 1,5+10 thousand Ks depending on your manufacturer and a rebuilt engine will want more than that... I base it on hours and do them at 1, 5, 10, and 50 hours replacing and discecting the filter to keep a very close eye on partical production from the engine.

[dobbo]

replacing and discecting the filter to keep a very close eye on partical production from the engine.


Sorry all just a quick question, how do you disect the filter? I have tried in the past and always make a mess therefore not being able to differenciate between metal particals from the filter casing or the engine oil.

[Blknight.aus]

with a pair of tinsnips. stab them into the side of the filter to initate cutting the ouside of the housing off and the work around aiming to cut the filer in half along its axis then tear the element out and spread it out, most of the stuff your looking for will be inside the center with most oil filters being flowed from the inside out.

[PAT303]

I would not run an engine on synthetic until I had at least 20,000k's on it.My defender had Mobil 1 when I bought it new and it glazed the bores,it took to 60k's on mineral oil before it stopped burning it.Let it settle in before anti-friction additives are used. Pat

[rick130]

I would not run an engine on synthetic until I had at least 20,000k's on it.My defender had Mobil 1 when I bought it new and it glazed the bores,it took to 60k's on mineral oil before it stopped burning it.Let it settle in before anti-friction additives are used. Pat

Sorry Pat but that's bollocks.

All modern oils contain friction modifiers.
If an engine has glazed bores from new, it's a symptom of how it has been run (pussy footed) rather than an indictment on the oil used.

Getting those rings to seal and bed is critical, and we either used to load them up on a dyno, or if a road car, find a long hill, select a relatively high gear and really load the engine up to get the rings to seat, then just drive it normally.

I totally agree with Dave, and FWIW, a lot of modern performance cars come from the factory with synthetic oil, but as Dave says it's a bit of a waste if you believe in dumping it early to get rid of debris.

[Blknight.aus]

urmmmm just to muddy the waters.......

actually both rick and pat are right, to an extent.....

if you use a high quality synthetic oil AND you pussy foot it after the initial 10-15 minute warm up run you will promote glazing of the pots but if you give it some welly and make it work (a little bit dont load the buggery out of it) it wont glaze up.

if your inclined to be a bit more gentle with your run in then youd use a natural dead dinosours oil.

for some rough figures on what I call a gentle run in and a harder run in

30-50% of rated engine load is gentle and 50-70% is a hard run in.

dont forget you need to also (IMHO) adhere to the following

dont let the engine just idle, keep it over 1000rpm once its got oil pressure for the first 10 hours.

dont just sit at one boring rev range after the first hour take it up to within 500rpm ish occasionally but not under full load and not engine braking either

keep the airfilter mickey mouse clean.


good luck with your run ins.

[rick130]

but don't touch the air filter, less chance of accidentally dropping dust into the inlet tract, and they filter better when dirty, anyway ;)

Check out Donaldson's and Cummins/Fleetguard's efficiency data. When at maximum dirt loading (pressure drop) they achieve maximum filtration.

[numpty]

Interesting stuff this, and I know a lot of it is personal preference, but the first service (including first oil change) for our 2006 Td5 was a scheduled 10000 klm's.(LR service interval) And it has had synthetic since new, as per manual.

[Chucaro]

Interesting ideas, with new John Deere tractors you do not warm up an engine for any period of time an never run the engine without load.
Diesel engine warm up under load.

[Blknight.aus]

Should have been a little clearer for that...

normally you dont warm up a modern engine other than for 30 seconds or so to let the oil pressure come up, let the turbo get a little heat on it, make sure that the things idling smoothly and to let the computer get a bead on what the engines doing (this is the time it should take you to do up your seat belt, make sure the dash is clear, your seat hasnt been adjusted, you can see your mirrors, your lights and stuff are on all the doors are closed, the kids have seatbelts on etc etc etc) you can idle the vehicle around during this time and for me starting big red, opening the gates, idling out in reverse shutting the gates and idling back onto the road to drive off takes about 30 seconds.



But I strongly advocate letting a freshly rebuilt engine warm up at high idle for at least few minutes at least before you go giving it herbs this allows things like bearings to expand to their operating sizes valves to get settled in and most importantly it allows the coolant to warm up a little and gives the waterpump time to ensure that the cooling system is purged After start up is normally when most wear occours and when you are most likely to pick up any strange noises.

The very first start of an engine should be to high idle for about 15 minutes or so after the oil pressure has come up. shut it down check the oil for coolant, the coolant for oil any other leaks and the start it up and go for a drive... After that your in the initial run in phase and I reckon you should not even start it if your not going to drive it as per the run in schedule for at least one hour... (the initial run in phase is the first 10-25 hours after the rebuild) and then its still being run in till about the 10K Km mark.

[BigJon]

I believe new Subarus come factory filled with a full synthetic engine oil. They now require a first oil change at 5000km, it used to be 12500km.
Some engines were displaying oil burning tendancies, hence the early first change.

[PAT303]

I don't agree with any of it.When I bought my defender it used oil like a clapped out 2a.I had nothing but problems with oil usage and Owen Rumble at Dungog LR who has 50 years on LR's said they never ran synthetic in new engines out of there workshop and don't run the engines softly.Somewhere here I have a letter from LR saying the engines should not be run gently and the engines will not be covered under warranty if they use excessive oil from being run in and when I had it serviced it was the most common complaint people had about the vehicles.Owen's parting words were ''drive it like you stole it''.My engine after running mineral oil came good and you could feel the difference within 20k's as it would not do 80khr in fourth gear running synthetic with 20k's on the clock.I am convinced the oil was the problem and you have to think about the engines are not new multi valve,cam high poo bits of gear they are just donks,good ones at that. Pat

[rick130]

and just to throw something else into the mix, but doesn't apply to any of our diesels, when bedding in new flat tappet cams, we would run them at a minimum of 25000 RPM to ensure lifter rotation, and run them at this for 20min-1/2 hr.
Then, the engines would get run in.
It was the same for Formula Ford through to NASCAR.

In the finish we made a cam running in rig (old engine block with an electric motor driving the cam) so that we could run in the engine with some sort of peace of mind, as it never really sat well with me or my mates bedding in the cam on a fresh engine, but it never seemed to hurt.

[Jeff]

and just to throw something else into the mix, but doesn't apply to any of our diesels, when bedding in new flat tappet cams, we would run them at a minimum of 25000 RPM to ensure lifter rotation, and run them at this for 20min-1/2 hr.
Then, the engines would get run in.
It was the same for Formula Ford through to NASCAR.


WOW!

I have seen the Honda 125 GP engines that did 22 000 and F1 car engines that did 20000, the noise would have unbelievable.

Jeff

:rocket:

[rick130]

I don't agree with any of it.

that's ok, when we think of the hundreds of thousands of new engines started every year in Australia, and most lead long lives, it probably doesn't matter how most are started, but i tend to run harder than most and up and down the rev range on anything new. Seems to work for me.



I am convinced the oil was the problem and you have to think about the engines are not new multi valve,cam high poo bits of gear they are just donks,good ones at that. Pat


definitely not the oil, or at least not because it was a synth. The old fallacies about synthetics being 'slipperier' etc are just that. Mostly they just have a broader operating temp range, and oxidise less, with the additive packages being broadly similar between mineral, semi and full synth within a manufacturers product range.
Even 'Mineral' oils like Delo 400 have very high levels of friction modifiers which act as EP additives, and you don't hear of engines glazing when run in on these.
In fact, these days the boundaries are so blurred, there almost isn't any 'pure' mineral oils, just as there are hadly any 'pure' syns, and regarding syns, the majority these days use high levels of Group III bases, which is just a highly refined, hydro cracked mineral oil anyway.

[B92 8NW]

Interesting ideas, with new John Deere tractors you do not warm up an engine for any period of time an never run the engine without load.
Diesel engine warm up under load.

This is generally a good idea with any diesel engine.

I don't run my Kubota at idle for any more than 3 minutes. If its not working, I shut it down, otherwise it will glaze to buggery.

If most people actually RTFM(:D) that came with their car, they would notice it says:

"DRIVING - PETROL AND DIESEL MODELS
Warming-up
DO NOT warm-up the engine by allowing it to
idle at a slow speed.
In the interests of fuel economy, it is advisable
to drive the vehicle straight away,
remembering that harsh acceleration and
labouring the engine before the normal
operating temperature has been reached can
damage the engine."

This is probably the best advice, coupled with:

"The engine must not be run above fast idle
speed until the oil pressure warning light
extinguishes to ensure that the engine and
turbo-charger bearings are properly
lubricated before being run at speed."

So start it up, put your belt on and pull away on a light throttle.

Then at the end of the exercise, 10 seconds at idle like the manual says. I know some people who set turbo timers for in excess of 2 minutes - IMHO unnecessary, just wasting fuel.

[PAT303]

All in all I think to much time is spent worrying about engine life.If looked after they last a long time and how many people have worn an engine out from new?.You have some good points too Rick. Pat