300 TDi Torque/Power Curves

[isuzu110]

Hi

I'm trying to find torque/power curves by RPM on the net for the TDi300. Google so far hasn't yielded anything other than Dieselgas graphs showing improvement after LPG fumigation.

Can anyone post the official LR version of the graphs ?

Thanks

[jx2mad]

I have just had gas fitted to my 300tdi and what a difference it makes. Lots more power, quieter motor and around 200 plus km more per tank of diesel.
Initially the gas usage was a bit high but I had my gas pressure readjusted today ( should run around 15 psi where mine was 25psi) and have noticed no difference in performance. One of the problems with my 300tdi was pulling off the mark whilst towing our jayco pop up van. However since having the gas fitted my 110 accelerates off the mark with good power. Also when cruising at 110kph on freeway the 110 will now accelerate quite well. Jim

[isuzu110]

Thanks. I'm after the standard graphs.

[Chucaro]

Hi

I'm trying to find torque/power curves by RPM on the net for the TDi300. Google so far hasn't yielded anything other than Dieselgas graphs showing improvement after LPG fumigation.

Can anyone post the official LR version of the graphs ?

Thanks

Send an email to this people, they should have something
Allard Turbo Sport (http://www.allardturbosport.co.uk/pages/leaflets/index.shtml#TURBODIESELSPECIALTUNING-2)

[weeds]

i have a power curve for a tweeked 300tdi......just have to find it

[weeds]

only take notice of the power curve....the top one i think, not the other one, for some reason they could not do torque
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/01/540.jpg

[Chucaro]

In Stage Two mode, boost is increased to 1.5 BAR, producing upto 160 b.h.p. and 275 lb.ft.:eek:
This are the figures for Tdi 200 & 300 :eek:
There are in the page Allard Turbo Sport (http://www.allardturbosport.co.uk/pages/landrover_defender_discovery.asp)

How long the engine will last ?

[abaddonxi]

Here's a scan of my rather damp dyno graph.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~abaddon@ozemail.com.au/AULRO/dyno.pdf
500kb.

This is on biodiesel, mild pump tweak.

Simon

[PAT303]

Didn't some one in the forum have VNT's for sale? Pat

[rick130]

Didn't some one in the forum have VNT's for sale? Pat


Jase.

the one off the Inter/Navistar 2.8HS

[rick130]

stock and MTQ kitted torque curve.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Power curve.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Brazilian 300Tdi

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

2.8l wastegated and VNT (2.8HS) curves.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[Dougal]

stock and MTQ kitted torque curve.

http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/Image16.gif

Power curve.

http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/Image17.gif

Brazilian 300Tdi

http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/Grafico_25L.gif

2.8l wastegated and VNT (2.8HS) curves.

http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/Grafico_28L.gif

Any chance you've still got the stock vs MTQ 300tdi power curves Rick? Link is now dead.
I've got the curves out the 94 soft-dash tdi brochure, but the resolution is so low I can't read it.

[rick130]

Any chance you've still got the stock vs MTQ 300tdi power curves Rick? Link is now dead.
I've got the curves out the 94 soft-dash tdi brochure, but the resolution is so low I can't read it.

Just had a quick squiz on the old hard drive and couldn't find them but hopefully they are there somewhere.

Will have a more thorough search later as I want to look at them again too, was looking online for them the other day (the old image hoster went belly up)

[Dougal]

Cheers. I've been monkeying around with 300tdi turbo sizing. First I had to baseline the original engine and turbo.
Then I ran a couple of compound turbo calculation examples using the existing turbo. I'm currently doing one at atmospheric pressure you'll find about 2,000m up.

It's very very interesting.:angel:

[rick130]

Can't find the pics on my old external drive, hopefully they are on a back up disc.

FWIW the MTQ/DTS kit used an MHI TD04-11G IIRC which boosts a hell of a lot earlier than the T250 and continues on.

[Dougal]

Can't find the pics on my old external drive, hopefully they are on a back up disc.

FWIW the MTQ/DTS kit used an MHI TD04-11G IIRC which boosts a hell of a lot earlier than the T250 and continues on.

The combo I'm looking at should be good for a hair over 400Nm at 2200rpm and leading onto 125kw. At 2000m altitude.
Without overstressing anything.:cool:
How much you want at seal-level depends on how hard you want to push it. Looks like 500Nm at 1800rpm is easy. But I'm not sure if the 300tdi or the ZF will stand for it.

Heaps of room beside the 300tdi in my latest RRC to fit this extra turbo and it's one I already had in my collection that I thought was worthless.

[PAT303]

125 killer wasps with 400 torques is plenty,with bugger all lag of course. Pat

[kreecha]

The combo I'm looking at should be good for a hair over 400Nm at 2200rpm and leading onto 125kw. At 2000m altitude.
Without overstressing anything.:cool:
How much you want at seal-level depends on how hard you want to push it. Looks like 500Nm at 1800rpm is easy. But I'm not sure if the 300tdi or the ZF will stand for it.

Heaps of room beside the 300tdi in my latest RRC to fit this extra turbo and it's one I already had in my collection that I thought was worthless.

That turbo is.......?

[Dougal]

That turbo is.......?

I don't think you'll believe me.

[kreecha]

I don't think you'll believe me.

Ok.

[PAT303]

Hiclone :eek:. Pat

[Dougal]

Maybe if you spun a hiclone really fast it could help.:angel:

Pretty much any T28 turbo will work to compound the 300tdi. But the bigger exhaust housing the better. Set them for ~10psi and wind the original turbo wastegate in a bit. Should give you a solid 20psi by ~1800rpm in all conditions and even at high altitudes should provide 20psi by 2000rpm.
Can be wound up to over 30psi. But that would be asking for trouble unless you have a lot of supporting modifications.

The turbo I have used for my recent calcs is a bastard T25 with an odd turbine. It's close to useless for more performnace in the original application but close to perfect for this one.
Hopefully I'll get a chance to try it one day. I now have a 300tdi to play with.

Either setup will trump a VNT turbo for performance at all operating points. Not to mention reliability and cost.

[rick130]

I really don't think you'd want to exceed 20psi in a Tdi unless you O ring the head (even with a MLS head gasket) and I'd be worried about bore distortion and the bottom end too. It's only a cast crank and I have no idea how strong the rods are either.

Maybe an HS2.8 crank/rod assembly ? :angel:

[uninformed]

I really don't think you'd want to exceed 20psi in a Tdi unless you O ring the head (even with a MLS head gasket) and I'd be worried about bore distortion and the bottom end too. It's only a cast crank and I have no idea how strong the rods are either.

Maybe an HS2.8 crank/rod assembly ? :angel:

are they the same bore centres?

[Dougal]

I really don't think you'd want to exceed 20psi in a Tdi unless you O ring the head (even with a MLS head gasket) and I'd be worried about bore distortion and the bottom end too. It's only a cast crank and I have no idea how strong the rods are either.

Maybe an HS2.8 crank/rod assembly ? :angel:

The great thing about a compound set is you can run whatever max boost you want. But you get boost sooner, a wider operating range and excellent altitude compensation.
Except this turbo I may play which which is free-floating. I don't know if it'll drop enough boost just with the small turbo wastegate opening. Can always drop the fuel until it's safe.

I'm of the opinion that it's not boost that causes problems. It's the combination of boost, fuel and injection timing.
Retard the injection timing a little (or simply don't advance it from factory specs) and your peak combustion pressures drop significantly.

What's the story with these head bolts? John (Bush65) ran slightly more tension on his. Worryingly it looks like I may have a spare rattling around in the back of this vehicle. I could put it inside a steel sleeve and keep cranking up the torque until I measure permanent stretch.

[Dougal]

are they the same bore centres?

Can you check next time you have yours apart?:D







Sorry, that was low.:angel:

[rick130]

are they the same bore centres?

Yep, and I'm pretty sure the 3.0l common rail version is the same.

Damned if I know how they punched that block out to 3.0l ?

[rick130]

Can you check next time you have yours apart?:D







Sorry, that was low.:angel:

Oooh, Serg has enough anxiety about that bloody engine now, don't start !

[rick130]

The great thing about a compound set is you can run whatever max boost you want. But you get boost sooner, a wider operating range and excellent altitude compensation.
Except this turbo I may play which which is free-floating. I don't know if it'll drop enough boost just with the small turbo wastegate opening. Can always drop the fuel until it's safe.

I'm of the opinion that it's not boost that causes problems. It's the combination of boost, fuel and injection timing.
Retard the injection timing a little (or simply don't advance it from factory specs) and your peak combustion pressures drop significantly.

What's the story with these head bolts? John (Bush65) ran slightly more tension on his. Worryingly it looks like I may have a spare rattling around in the back of this vehicle. I could put it inside a steel sleeve and keep cranking up the torque until I measure permanent stretch.

I think you're right it's more a combustion pressure issue, but they do run better with more advance, they need to rattle to go well ! :D

John cranked a few extra degrees into his bolts.
They aren't TTY, although everyone thinks they are. I'll be using ARP bolt lube when I do my head, just to make things more consistent.
ARP will make a up a stud kit, but it costs $$$, and whilst I'm not as down on the Tdi as John, I think he's right when he said it starts to become the same as polishing a turd. :angel:

[uninformed]

Can you check next time you have yours apart?:D







Sorry, that was low.:angel:

no, that was about right. Next time it comes apart its getting posted down to Rick, Id be gald to see the arse end of it.

BUT, if I had the $$$ and it was a second car, id be interested in compounding it.

[uninformed]

Yep, and I'm pretty sure the 3.0l common rail version is the same.

Damned if I know how they punched that block out to 3.0l ?

there is a 3.0 common rail version??? whats that in?

[rick130]

there is a 3.0 common rail version??? whats that in?


Have no idea but it used to be on their website, think it might've been a 3 valve OHC version but the block architecture looked like a Tdi !

[kreecha]

Maybe if you spun a hiclone really fast it could help.:angel:

Pretty much any T28 turbo will work to compound the 300tdi. But the bigger exhaust housing the better. Set them for ~10psi and wind the original turbo wastegate in a bit. Should give you a solid 20psi by ~1800rpm in all conditions and even at high altitudes should provide 20psi by 2000rpm.
Can be wound up to over 30psi. But that would be asking for trouble unless you have a lot of supporting modifications.

The turbo I have used for my recent calcs is a bastard T25 with an odd turbine. It's close to useless for more performnace in the original application but close to perfect for this one.
Hopefully I'll get a chance to try it one day. I now have a 300tdi to play with.

Either setup will trump a VNT turbo for performance at all operating points. Not to mention reliability and cost.

What is the difference between our turbo and a T28?

Specifically, will a T28 come on boost sooner? If so is that how the benefit is achieved?

[Dougal]

What is the difference between our turbo and a T28?

Specifically, will a T28 come on boost sooner? If so is that how the benefit is achieved?

Not replacing the current turbo with a T28. Adding a T28 to the current turbo. One feeds boost into the other.

T28 is roughly two sizes bigger than the original.

[kreecha]

Not replacing the current turbo with a T28. Adding a T28 to the current turbo. One feeds boost into the other.

T28 is roughly two sizes bigger than the original.

So if its bigger and it is supplied cooling exhaust gases from our standard turbo, what process takes place to achieve superior performance (more boost in lower rev range) to a VNT?

[Dougal]

So if its bigger and it is supplied cooling exhaust gases from our standard turbo, what process takes place to achieve superior performance (more boost in lower rev range) to a VNT?

Wider operating range and higher boost possible across the entire operating range. They also look after themselves better, no complicated control and vane position feedback required. Mechanically they are a lot more reliable and more efficient.
Many production diesel cars and trucks have dropped VNT for compound turbocharging.

It works by feeding your existing turbo some boost, which your existing turbo compounds into higher boost pressures. This creates more exhaust gas which drives both turbines harder. The result is a lot more boost sooner than you get with either turbo individually.

[kreecha]

Ok so if I try to rearrange your words;
If our turbo is "out of its map" at 14psi boost and the T28 feeds the our turbo then because the supply air is higher than atmospheric pressure our turbo is back "in its map"?

[kreecha]

Or using bogus numbers....
At 1600rpm our turbo makes 6psi.
If we use a T28 to feed it, at 1600rpm we might make 10psi.

[Dougal]

Ok so if I try to rearrange your words;
If our turbo is "out of its map" at 14psi boost and the T28 feeds the our turbo then because the supply air is higher than atmospheric pressure our turbo is back "in its map"?

It gets complex pretty quick. Turbo maps run on pressure ratios, multiples of the inlet pressure.
6psi from 14.5psi atmospheric is a PR of ~1.4.
If you feed the turbo 3psi (plus atmospheric) and it's still giving a PR of 1.4 then you've got ~10psi.

But. That 3 psi extra is also driving more exhaust flow so the small turbo can do a little better again.


Or using bogus numbers....
At 1600rpm our turbo makes 6psi.
If we use a T28 to feed it, at 1600rpm we might make 10psi.

Or possibly 15.

I went through trying to reverse engineer the 300tdi original turbo and I got ~5.5psi at 1500rpm.
By increasing the fuel I think ~7psi is all you're going to get.
Compounded with a T28 I got ~14.7psi and not many more rpm to hit ~20psi. This combination has no problem doing 30psi, but that would be silly.
I got the same ~14.7psi compounded with my mystery turbo, but the higher rpm is much better with much reduced exhaust manifold pressures.

[kreecha]

Like 👍

[PAT303]

Have no idea but it used to be on their website, think it might've been a 3 valve OHC version but the block architecture looked like a Tdi !

I read somewhere that they opened the bores and increased stroke and fitted a new head with OHC,don't know where I found it but thats alot of work on an old engine design. Pat

[PAT303]

So the charge is only cooled by the original single I/C after both turbo's?. Pat

[Dougal]

So the charge is only cooled by the original single I/C after both turbo's?. Pat

Yes. Intercooling loads are quite low. 15kw max so standard items will cope. Full width radiator and intercooler would always be better though.

[uninformed]

I want 14psi at 1000rpm, and that doesnt have to keep climbing to stupid levels at higher rpm. Just low down torque please :)

[Dougal]

I want 14psi at 1000rpm, and that doesnt have to keep climbing to stupid levels at higher rpm. Just low down torque please :)

How much have you got now and at what rpm? The 2.8 with the VNT should be significantly better than the 300tdi.

My 4BD1T has 10psi by 1200rpm.:angel: Pretty rough asking full torque at that rpm in high gears but It's fine accelerating through.
Needs a heavier flywheel.

[uninformed]

How much have you got now and at what rpm? The 2.8 with the VNT should be significantly better than the 300tdi.

My 4BD1T has 10psi by 1200rpm.:angel: Pretty rough asking full torque at that rpm in high gears but It's fine accelerating through.
Needs a heavier flywheel.

I dont know :D I just blow them up!!! haha.

I can atest to the talk of VNTs being troublesome, and that not counting mine failing recently (most probably fatigue related due to original run away)

your 4bdit sounds like it would pull my trailer pretty good :)

[Dougal]

your 4bdit sounds like it would pull my trailer pretty good :)

It pulled this trailer pretty good. 300tdi getting a ride home.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Perhaps you need a Perentie.

[uninformed]

It pulled this trailer pretty good. 300tdi getting a ride home.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Perhaps you need a Perentie.

I need alot of things, money is one of them :(

[Dougal]

I think you're right it's more a combustion pressure issue, but they do run better with more advance, they need to rattle to go well ! :D

They need to rattle to go with stock boost. But more boost and more fuel while not over-advancing the timing could give us more power/torque through higher average combustion pressure while keeping the peak combustion pressure about the same.


John cranked a few extra degrees into his bolts.
They aren't TTY, although everyone thinks they are. I'll be using ARP bolt lube when I do my head, just to make things more consistent.
ARP will make a up a stud kit, but it costs $$$, and whilst I'm not as down on the Tdi as John, I think he's right when he said it starts to become the same as polishing a turd. :angel:

Yes I know John's opinion of these.:D

Polishing isn't the only option. There's also chrome plating and even rolling in glitter.

[PAT303]

Dougal,lets not let this thread turn into a ''my penis is bigger than your penis'' duel which is the norm with Tdi threads,if you can make this work I think lots of people would be interested,the only trouble I see is under bonnet room in the defender,100kw and 400nm at 1200rpm onwards would keep most Tdi owners happy. Pat

[isuzurover]

I know increasing boost reduces EGTs, however I am unsure the stock radiator would be able to cope.

[rick130]

Polishing isn't the only option. There's also chrome plating and even rolling in glitter.

Cool, glitter !

My nieces would love it ! :D

[loanrangie]

Cool, glitter !

My nieces would love it ! :D

Make it pink and my girls will love it.

[uninformed]

bugger that, its a LR, HDG the bastard!

[rick130]

I know increasing boost reduces EGTs, however I am unsure the stock radiator would be able to cope.

Closing that silly big bleed down to 3mm would help.

Ultimately something like a Redback 3 row-5/8" tube core and vented guards in a Deefer as Serg did would be a fix.

[isuzurover]

Closing that silly big bleed down to 3mm would help.

Ultimately something like a Redback 3 row-5/8" tube core and vented guards in a Deefer as Serg did would be a fix.

Which pipe is this??? After mine struggled to tow the boat in ~20o temperatures without overheating I think I need to do this.

The cooling system is also overly complicated!

[rick130]

Which pipe is this??? After mine struggled to tow the boat in ~20o temperatures without overheating I think I need to do this.

The cooling system is also overly complicated!

The bleed is in the divider plate in the radiator itself.

It has a massive bleed hole in it, it's at least equivalent to a 10c piece in size.
Get a radiator shop to drop the tank and close it off to under 3mm and it helps redirect a lot of flow through the radiator.

No one can give an adequate explanation of why the bleed is so large, it just doesn't make any sense.

[Dougal]

Dougal,lets not let this thread turn into a ''my penis is bigger than your penis'' duel which is the norm with Tdi threads,if you can make this work I think lots of people would be interested,the only trouble I see is under bonnet room in the defender,100kw and 400nm at 1200rpm onwards would keep most Tdi owners happy. Pat

I only have the 300tdi RRC here Pat. Can you provide some pics of the 300tdi defender to show how much or little room there is around the turbo side?

[PAT303]

Dougal,the alternator is in front of it,the engine mount underneath it and the starter behind,there's no room around the original turbo for another one,no room on the turbo side at all really. Pat

[PAT303]

The bleed is in the divider plate in the radiator itself.

It has a massive bleed hole in it, it's at least equivalent to a 10c piece in size.
Get a radiator shop to drop the tank and close it off to under 3mm and it helps redirect a lot of flow through the radiator.

No one can give an adequate explanation of why the bleed is so large, it just doesn't make any sense.

It helps getting the motor up to temp quicker by circulating hot coolant via the hole instead of the core,I also think it's there so coolant can bypass a blocked core and still circulate to hopefully let the temp gauge works enough to alert the driver to a problem.If you have cooling system problems,overheating in 20 degree temps means somethings not right,blocking the hole won't do bugger all,fitting a bigger rad IMHO isn't a fix either,more airflow through the bay is whats needed,HP cars almost always have gills,thats where I'd start. Pat

[isuzu110]

See my post re the radiator mod

Defender 300TDI Radiator Tropical Mod (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/2059525-post1.html)

After this mod, I was seeing a radiator temp drop by 10 deg, but complicated by the fact that i changed the viscous hub at the same time. Not sure which mod contributed to what % of the temp drop

[isuzurover]

I only have the 300tdi RRC here Pat. Can you provide some pics of the 300tdi defender to show how much or little room there is around the turbo side?

plenty of room for a compound turbo setup if you move the washer bottle.

http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb358/roestalker270/Defender/IMG_0757_zps0de2add3.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/1114.jpg

[Dougal]

Is that the stock air cleaner location? Washer bottle is a good distance away. Similar in the rrc.

[kreecha]

Going on experience with my Disco. It would be tight. Impossible maybe. Tight definitely.

[Dougal]

Going on experience with my Disco. It would be tight. Impossible maybe. Tight definitely.

I checked with a spare turbo a few days ago. Looked doable. I know the disco layout is a bit different accessories wise.

[uninformed]

Is that the stock air cleaner location? Washer bottle is a good distance away. Similar in the rrc.

Yes

[Dougal]

Dougal,the alternator is in front of it,the engine mount underneath it and the starter behind,there's no room around the original turbo for another one,no room on the turbo side at all really. Pat

The alternator, starter and mount appear to be in the same position as my RRC. The air cleaner and intake pipe is the major difference.

[Dougal]

I found the numbers on my pump today.
0 460 414 098.

The 1 in 414 suggests 11mm plungers. Landcruiser 4.2L non turbo didn't get 11mm plungers.
Cummins 4BT got 12mm plungers. A bigger plunger not only can injector more fuel, but can inject fuel faster. I'm still trying to find out what the stock injection values are so I can check how efficient these engines are.

[isuzurover]

I found this for an '02 Jetta which AFAIK runs 10mm plungers:


IQ fluctuates at warm idle 3.0 to 3.5 mg/stroke within that range.

[Dougal]

It's fuel at rated torque and power I'm really interested in. I'm expecting numbers around 50-55cc/1000 shots. Exactly where they land will show how efficient the engine is at those two points. I emailled the pump numbers off to an injection shop who've been helpful before. We'll see.

A 12mm cummins 4BT pump bench tests at ~180cc/1000 shots max. Scaling the area would give ~150cc/1000 shots.
Far more than we could ever hope to use. But it's better to have a big plunger and shorter injection for the same fuel.

[Dougal]

Well this is interesting.

I've got the injection pump data for my 300tdi and it shows two things.
1. The engine VE is better than I thought.
2. The engine efficiency is worse than I thought at full power. Likely because of the original turbo.
Drive pressure at 4000rpm is ~17psi higher than boost. Over double.
3. The engine efficency at max torque is pretty much what I expected. But I don't know if my engine was officially the 265 or 280Nm version.

I'm re-running all my calcs on the new numbers. This will get interesting. Low rpm boost/power numbers won't change much, but high rpm will.

[isuzurover]

The 300tdi is insanely efficient for most normal driving. That and the practicalities of the D1 shape and rear door are the only reasons we keep the POS.

We get ~8L/100 for normal driving and recently did 1000km towing a 5m boat at sub 10L/100.

[rick130]

My T250 is starting to get noisy so I was going to replace it with an MHI TD04-11G.
Unfortunately I've never been able to find a map for the -11G. :(

[Dougal]

The 300tdi is insanely efficient for most normal driving. That and the practicalities of the D1 shape and rear door are the only reasons we keep the POS.

We get ~8L/100 for normal driving and recently did 1000km towing a 5m boat at sub 10L/100.

Yeah that's what my numbers are showing. Exceptionally efficient around 2000rpm and absolutely terrible around 4000rpm. Sliding scale in between.

[loanrangie]

Yeah that's what my numbers are showing. Exceptionally efficient around 2000rpm and absolutely terrible around 4000rpm. Sliding scale in between.

300TDI will almost never see 4000 rpm so i dont see that as an issue, extra torque in the lower range would be good though.

[Dougal]

300TDI will almost never see 4000 rpm so i dont see that as an issue, extra torque in the lower range would be good though.

That's my goal.:cool:

Anyone got a good max boost reading for an unmolested 300tdi at 1800rpm?

[Dougal]

My T250 is starting to get noisy so I was going to replace it with an MHI TD04-11G.
Unfortunately I've never been able to find a map for the -11G. :(

How about wheel measurements and turbine housing size?

By my calcs a TD04 turbine 6cm is about 10% bigger flow-wise than a Garrett GT2052 turbine from the TD5. T250 from the 300tdi is about 10% smaller flow-wise than the GT and about 20% smaller than a 6cm TD04.
5cm housing is on par with the GT2052.

[rick130]

The 300tdi is insanely efficient for most normal driving. That and the practicalities of the D1 shape and rear door are the only reasons we keep the POS.

We get ~8L/100 for normal driving and recently did 1000km towing a 5m boat at sub 10L/100.


Yes, if I can average 11.5-11.8l/100km with the pump turned right up, 33" MT's, ladders on the roof, aerodynamics of a shed sitting on 110-115km/h (genuine) speed everywhere and tareing well over 2650kg, it's a stupidly efficient little engine.

[rick130]

How about wheel measurements and turbine housing size?

By my calcs a TD04 turbine 6cm is about 10% bigger flow-wise than a Garrett GT2052 turbine from the TD5. T250 from the 300tdi is about 10% smaller flow-wise than the GT and about 20% smaller than a 6cm TD04.
5cm housing is on par with the GT2052.


Unfortunately I don't have one.
That's the turbo MTQ/DTS use in their Tdi upgrade, and it's supposed to be that much more efficient than the T250 it isn't funny.
It appears to come on boost much, much earlier without losing anything up top.
JC has fitted their kits and likes them, says the driveability is vastly improved over the stock Garrett.
I think it was the same model as fitted to some Mitsubishi's.

[Dougal]

Unfortunately I don't have one.
That's the turbo MTQ/DTS use in their Tdi upgrade, and it's supposed to be that much more efficient than the T250 it isn't funny.
It appears to come on boost much, much earlier without losing anything up top.
JC has fitted their kits and likes them, says the driveability is vastly improved over the stock Garrett.
I think it was the same model as fitted to some Mitsubishi's.

The Td04 is similar turbine wheel features to the Garrett GT series. In fact damn near identical dimensions too. The T250 turbine looks like a paddle wheel in comparison.
They made big gains in turbine efficiency (almost 20%) which means extracting more power and more boost from less drive pressure. So you can run a dimensionally bigger turbine and still get the same boost down low but with far better performance up high.

There is ~15kw of un-neecessary pumping losses waiting to be released in the 300tdi at 4000rpm. It could be a ~100kw engine just with the same fuel, same boost but better turbo.

[isuzurover]

That's my goal.:cool:

Anyone got a good max boost reading for an unmolested 300tdi at 1800rpm?

I can measure mine if you want. 100% stock slug...

[Dougal]

I can measure mine if you want. 100% stock slug...

Yes please, as many rpm-boost data points as you can get. It might be some-time before mine is road-worthy.

[PAT303]

There was a mob in Perth that was changing the original compressor to a better designed one from another model,I'm sure someone on here had it done as they found as you have that the originals not that good. Pat

[PAT303]

The 300tdi is insanely efficient for most normal driving. That and the practicalities of the D1 shape and rear door are the only reasons we keep the POS.

We get ~8L/100 for normal driving and recently did 1000km towing a 5m boat at sub 10L/100.

I can buy you some dark glasses and a hat if it's so painfull to be seen in a Tdi :p Pat

[PAT303]

One more question Dougal,why can't a super charger be fitted to a diesel?. Pat

[Dougal]

There was a mob in Perth that was changing the original compressor to a better designed one from another model,I'm sure someone on here had it done as they found as you have that the originals not that good. Pat

I think the compressor is fine. It's the turbine side that is best improved. But compounds can bypass most of that with other benefits at the same time.


One more question Dougal,why can't a super charger be fitted to a diesel?. Pat

Because diesels need boost tied to load. Superchargers are a huge parasitic draw and their compression isn't very efficient. Also without the effect of vapourising petrol cooling the charge they are close to useless.

[rrturboD]

Found the dyno of my engine, soon after I had gas added. You will see the changes as you scan the graphs .....
The blue line is in fact Diesel only... then the others are both with gas.

[kreecha]

Found the dyno of my engine, soon after I had gas added. You will see the changes as you scan the graphs .....
The blue line is in fact Diesel only... then the others are both with gas.

Mmm 500Nm of torque.

Seems legit.

[kreecha]

In low range.

[kreecha]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/956.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/team199/media/Doug%20Intro/8a8bae74-2ba6-4104-9689-f92e1301bfc8_zpsa3fb1641.jpg.html)

[kreecha]

I saw another dyno sheet today which showed the result of a $990 les Richmond tune and dyno. Only 60.6kw.

[kreecha]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/954.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/team199/media/Doug%20Intro/bead108c-f0a6-40e0-be68-ced64ff3acfc_zps9ffe67e3.jpg.html)

[kreecha]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/953.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/team199/media/Doug%20Intro/afc2fa38-8c38-4d2c-9ee8-cd0f2b431e76_zps2ba24062.jpg.html)

[Dougal]

Power, boost and AFR plots. Perfect. That's exactly what I needed.:cool:

[PAT303]

Can we get a run down in a language we can all understand about the different plots on the dyno sheet and what they mean. Pat

[Dougal]

Can we get a run down in a language we can all understand about the different plots on the dyno sheet and what they mean. Pat

Boost I'm sure you've all got. A/F or AFR is air to fuel ratio. Basically how rich/lean the engine is running. You can see it richens up as the turbo is spooling, then leans out at max boost before richening up again as RPM builds and the cylinders get a little less air through the valves.

These plots are power at the wheels, which is why the power flattens out. The drag from the drivetrain reduces recorded power at higher pm.

[PAT303]

So how do we know for instance the A/F ratio is correct?,it's a line on the sheet so what do we compare it to?. Pat

[Dougal]

So how do we know for instance the A/F ratio is correct?,it's a line on the sheet so what do we compare it to?. Pat

There is no single correct A/F ratio on a diesel. It varies with load in the general range of 18-80.
My 4BD1T idles at 80:1 and at full load I'm around 19:1. Cruise is ~37:1.

The full load A/F shouldn't be richer than about 18:1 to avoid smoke and high EGT. Most stock vehicles are around 20-22:1 to stay clean, some of the new cummins industrials are ~28:1. They run that lean to meet higher emissions classes.
As you run leaner, power drops. So full load is a compromise between emissions, efficiency (smoke really slaughters efficiency) and EGT.

The real challenge is to get enough boost for drivability and to stay lean enough at the highest normal altitude (to avoid smoke and high EGT) without the turbine side of the turbo turning into an exhaust brake at higher rpm.

The stock turbo looks like the turbine side does become an exhaust brake at higher rpm. A smaller turbine would give more low end boost and better performance at altitude, but would make the exhaust brake problem at higher rpm worse.

[rick130]

Here's a copy of the DTS/MTQ MHI TD04-11G power/torque curves.

Not very detailed, and they are scans of a fax, but it gives an idea of the difference between the T250 Garrett and TD04 MHI (and I'm guessing a little pump tuning)
The story I was told years ago was that one of the bosses at MTQ had a Disco 300Tdi that he towed a big boat with and so the reason they developed a kit.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=77211&stc=1&d=1399946593

[simmo]

MHI TD04 is great turbo, but how is it mounted on the engine?

I love the price, simplicity and reliability of a non VGT ball bearing turbo, it looks to make good improvements in torques and power , but the manifold?

The manifold availability is one of the big deciders for a Tdi upgrade, we don't have much choice there. I suspect those dyno results are few years old, I spoke to a few guys and they said someone used to make the manifolds, they even rung around for me, but nothing came up.

I don't think the TD04 is used with he landrover manifold, everyone spoke to said the landy manifold is a large part of the problem on the Tdi.

cheers simmo

[Dougal]

MHI TD04 is great turbo, but how is it mounted on the engine?

I love the price, simplicity and reliability of a non VGT ball bearing turbo, it looks to make good improvements in torques and power , but the manifold?

The manifold availability is one of the big deciders for a Tdi upgrade, we don't have much choice there. I suspect those dyno results are few years old, I spoke to a few guys and they said someone used to make the manifolds, they even rung around for me, but nothing came up.

I don't think the TD04 is used with he landrover manifold, everyone spoke to said the landy manifold is a large part of the problem on the Tdi.

cheers simmo

200tdi had the T2/T25 manifold.

TD04 is roughly equivalent to the TD5 turbo (GT2052) and either should bolt to the 200tdi manifold.
But there is only so much you can do with a single turbo. Ball bearings aren't a long term solution, they have issues with oil quality, the service life isn't as long as bushing/journal turbochargers and rebuilds often require a whole new core at higher cost.

IMO leave the ball bearings to the ricers.

[simmo]

Tdi 200 manifold, is made of unobtainium?

are they around still? :(

[Dougal]

Tdi 200 manifold, is made of unobtainium?

are they around still? :(

I understand there are/were 2 different 200tdi manifolds. Disco/RRC and Defender.
Avaialability? Not sure and not worried. A 300tdi manifold could be chopped and a flange welded on likely for less coin than a good 200tdi manifold.

[PAT303]

You can buy manifolds for lots of different engines,the boy racers use them and I don't think it would be that hard to mod one for the Tdi,there is lots of styles available. Pat

[rick130]

MHI TD04 is great turbo, but how is it mounted on the engine?

I love the price, simplicity and reliability of a non VGT ball bearing turbo, it looks to make good improvements in torques and power , but the manifold?

The manifold availability is one of the big deciders for a Tdi upgrade, we don't have much choice there. I suspect those dyno results are few years old, I spoke to a few guys and they said someone used to make the manifolds, they even rung around for me, but nothing came up.

I don't think the TD04 is used with he landrover manifold, everyone spoke to said the landy manifold is a large part of the problem on the Tdi.

cheers simmo

MTQ have a 300Tdi manifold available, (it uses the numbers 1 and 4 300Tdi 'bullhorns' with a newly cast centre section) but personally I'd go a 200Tdi Disco one, as Bruce Davis uses for his Garrett upgrade.

I have pics of the Bruce Davis setup if anyone wants to see.

[isuzu110]

I have pics of the Bruce Davis setup if anyone wants to see.

Yes please

[rick130]

Excuse the quality, this was taken years ago with an old Nokia phone in a mates workshop and uploaded to another thread a while back.

Think I have a few more filed away somewhere from different angles.

This was fitted to a 300Tdi in a 130CC that does farm duty on one of the studs here.
BD use their own cast dump pipe to mate up to the standard 300Tdi exhaust, and the intake piping is just tweaked and extended IIRC.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=57306&d=1362195710 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=57306&d=1362195710)

[2stroke]

Any idea how the wastegate works? Doesn't look any easier to access than original, same goes the exhaust flange. I ended up just replacing mine with a new stock one but wish I explored options a bit, if only for the sake of curiosity.
Edit ; Not a great choice of words, we all know HOW it works, just cant see it

[rick130]

Any idea how the wastegate works? Doesn't look any easier to access than original, same goes the exhaust flange. I ended up just replacing mine with a new stock one but wish I explored options a bit, if only for the sake of curiosity.
Edit ; Not a great choice of words, we all know HOW it works, just cant see it

It's the same as stock, the turbo is a T250 with a T25 exhaust housing and the wheel/s changed.
I was told once what they were, can't remember as I wasn't that interested !

[Dougal]

Progress at my end will halt until the toy-fund can stomach a new head. It blows steam out the exhaust at warm idle.:D

[loanrangie]

Progress at my end will halt until the toy-fund can stomach a new head. It blows steam out the exhaust at warm idle.:D

How about a diagram of the proposed compound setup in the meantime ;).

200TDI manifolds are hard to get so a custom one may be easier in the long run.

[Dougal]

How about a diagram of the proposed compound setup in the meantime ;).

200TDI manifolds are hard to get so a custom one may be easier in the long run.

Sure.:D

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=79042&stc=1&d=1402889486

[loanrangie]

Did your child do that for you ? :D

[Dougal]

Did your child do that for you ? :D

Compound turbocharging is childs play.:p

[uninformed]

hold my beer.....

[rick130]

MHI TD04-11G comp. specs via a Mellet rebuild doc.

Inducer: 37.97mm
Diam.: 49.00mm
Tip width: 4.88mm
Hub Length: 20.00mm
Blades: 6/6

[rick130]

Just a quick thought, can the mechanical boost compensator cope with the pressure changes of a compound setup ?