Land Rovers are NOT 4WD's

[dave stimson]

Land Rovers and Rangies are not technically 4WD's.
Because they are fitted with 3 differentials only one wheel is driving at any one time. The wheel with the least resistance gets the power. You can prove this by jacking up one wheel and attempt to drive away. (be careful doing this because 'oil drag etc' may give a small amount of drive to another wheel).
Hence a locking centre dif is provided to give - wait for it - one more wheel to drive. With centre dif locked the Rover is now a 2 WD.
Discovery 2 without a locking diff are given Traction Control to apply a brake to the spinning wheel.

So, a locking diff or traction control is absolutely required to give at least a 2 wheel drive functionality. Hence my previous Forum Question - how does one clear a TC /abs fault indicator if you are not near a dealer.

[dobbo]

Land Rovers and Rangies are not technically 4WD's.
Because they are fitted with 3 differentials only one wheel is driving at any one time. The wheel with the least resistance gets the power. You can prove this by jacking up one wheel and attempt to drive away. (be careful doing this because 'oil drag etc' may give a small amount of drive to another wheel).
Hence a locking centre dif is provided to give - wait for it - one more wheel to drive. With centre dif locked the Rover is now a 2 WD.
Discovery 2 without a locking diff are given Traction Control to apply a brake to the spinning wheel.

So, a locking diff or traction control is absolutely required to give at least a 2 wheel drive functionality. Hence my previous Forum Question - how does one clear a TC /abs fault indicator if you are not near a dealer.


Interesting concept you have there

Better go back and have a rethink about it though

[BigJon]

I think your logic is a little flawed with reference to your opening statement. I can put my Rangie up on the hoist and put in gear with all the wheels off the ground. They all go round, hence it is driving all four at the same time. You assert that it can only drive one at a time and this is clearly not true. I think your understanding of differential action is not 100%.

[BigJon]

- how does one clear a TC /abs fault indicator if you are not near a dealer.

You can't, unless you have access to aftermarket diagnostic equipment.

[weeds]

i have three diff locks....they work a treat, positive drive to all wheels all the time

i'm no expert but i think land rover have done it a little better than the jappers.....no free wheeling etc

[sclarke]

dont worry about him, he is from Overlander and drives a Part time 4wd...... Land fill accually.... TOYOTA

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Land Rovers and Rangies are not technically 4WD's.
Because they are fitted with 3 differentials only one wheel is driving at any one time. The wheel with the least resistance gets the power. .....
Oh how contemporary and myopic some people have become.

Only some Land Rovers have 3 differentials.
Only some models do not have the ability to lock the centre diff.
Even with the third diff, when all wheels have equal traction (and load) all 4 wheels drive.
Are we about to suggest that most cars on the road are 1 wheel drive.

Diana

[Dougal]

Who let you in? Don't we have a beginners section?

Quick lesson.
Diffs spread torque, in a fulltime 4wd vehicle all wheels get equal torque. That torque is limited by traction.
If you jack up a wheel then it has no traction, the only torque available to each wheel is due to the friction in the wheelbearings.

[Camo]

dont worry about him, he is from Overlander and drives a Part time 4wd...... Land fill accually.... TOYOTA

haha thats makes sense now

I used to have a Toyota Landcruiser.. bought the rangie so I can have something capable offroad :D

Camo

[Reads90]

I think your logic is a little flawed with reference to your opening statement. I can put my Rangie up on the hoist and put in gear with all the wheels off the ground. They all go round, hence it is driving all four at the same time. You assert that it can only drive one at a time and this is clearly not true. I think your understanding of differential action is not 100%.


AHHH but non of them are driving the car forward

At Land Rover Experiance instuctor training they teach you to trick people and ask them how many wheels drive a land Rover.
You always get 4Wd so you then drive the car up a bank so one wheel (normally at the rear) is off the ground. Then the wheel is spinning and the car is going no where. And you ask again how many wheel drive is a land rover.

The you ask when you put the diff lock in how many wheel drive is the car Again someone will say 4 wd and it is at this point you you cross axel the car and get two wheels spinning (one on each axel and the car is going no where) So you say Nah it is 2 wheels are driving.

This is the first thing you show people on the teraching courses. This is what Land Rover taught me to do when i took my Instutor exam
This is the simple way you also explian the workings of the land rover 4wd system

Ali

[sclarke]

i think the easy answer is.

a 4wd is a vehicle with the ability at any time for the 4 wheels to drive the vehicle in the direction you want, forward or reverse.

a 2wd is a vehicle that only has 2 wheels to drive it, either front or rear differential.

So yes its a 4wd, as is a WRX and a OKA...............

[Reads90]

i think the easy answer is.

a 4wd is a vehicle with the ability at any time for the 4 wheels to drive the vehicle in the direction you want, forward or reverse.

a 2wd is a vehicle that only has 2 wheels to drive it, either front or rear differential.

So yes its a 4wd, as is a WRX and a OKA...............


Ahhh but what is the differance between AWD and 4wd according to your theory :D

And there is one

[sclarke]

Nothing, but most AWD have a part time AWD and the Front or rear kicks in...

and most AWD dont have Low range

[Reads90]

Nothing, but most AWD have a part time AWD and the Front or rear kicks in...

and most AWD dont have Low range

mmm nah

4wd s (like land rover ) have power to all 4 wheels the same amout of power shared from the gearbox at all times , Even when having a 2wd and 4 wd selctoor Ie Suzuki and toyota

AWD are biased to rear with power also going to front (sort of 70/30) all the time or part time when the computor feels it is needed, And they are normally cars that don't have a low box

[crump]

Land Rovers and Rangies are not technically 4WD's.


Yes your 100% correct, their not 4wds, there LANDROVERS.:p

[Dougal]

AHHH but non of them are driving the car forward

Yes they are, they just don't have enough torque to move it.



At Land Rover Experiance instuctor training they teach you to trick people and ask them how many wheels drive a land Rover.
You always get 4Wd so you then drive the car up a bank so one wheel (normally at the rear) is off the ground. Then the wheel is spinning and the car is going no where. And you ask again how many wheel drive is a land rover.


It's still 4wd.
With open diffs, the torque available to each wheel is limited by the wheel with the least traction.
If one wheel has no traction, it doesn't make it a 1 wheel drive vehicle.



The you ask when you put the diff lock in how many wheel drive is the car Again someone will say 4 wd and it is at this point you you cross axel the car and get two wheels spinning (one on each axel and the car is going no where) So you say Nah it is 2 wheels are driving.


It's still 4wd, but in this case front and back axles can deliver torque independently of each other. Again at each end the torque is limited by the wheel with the least traction.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

mmm nah

.... AWD are biased to rear with power also going to front (sort of 70/30) all the time or part time when the computor feels it is needed, And they are normally cars that don't have a low box AWD are frequently biased to the front.
Even the 1980 Subaru 1800cc 4WD had both hi and lo range.
I am old enough to remember the original advertising on the Range Rover (LT95 box) suggesting that it had 80/20 bias towards the rear. Although in reality after the first few hundred units (when they removed the limited slip from the centre diff) it probably had no bias at all.

Diana

[Reads90]

Yes they are, they just don't have enough torque to move it.



It's still 4wd.
With open diffs, the torque available to each wheel is limited by the wheel with the least traction.
If one wheel has no traction, it doesn't make it a 1 wheel drive vehicle.



It's still 4wd, but in this case front and back axles can deliver torque independently of each other. Again at each end the torque is limited by the wheel with the least traction.

Maybe it did not come across as mean't :). It is to show people the ideal of the running gear, with diffs and with the diff locks
Also all done as an ice breaker and **** take . And to shut up the smart **** in the group of people you are teaching :):)

Yes Land rovers are 4wd as the engine drives 4 wheels on the truck
But for some idiots this still does not mean that you can't get stuck by getting cross axeled and this is mean't to show this

[BigJon]

AHHH but non of them are driving the car forward



I never said they were. I defy you to show me ANY 4 wheel drive vehicle suspended on a hoist with all four driven wheels off the ground that WILL drive forwards, in spite of any difflocks, traction control, etc.

My point was that all four wheels will turn even without locking ANY of the diffs. Therefore it is clearly as 4WD. Diffs don't allow power / torque to go to only one axle at a time.

The original poster was basing all of his argument on one WRONG assumption. Hence my comment about his understanding of differential action to be less than 100%.

[dobbo]

My guess is he'll return to the forum, look at this post, get his jollies and forward the link to all of his mates, they'll have a laugh to his face and call him the same names we have behind his back.

I saw the chimps at the zoo do the same thing one day. Right before they put on cheap suits and sold a soccermum a new 200 series Cruiser.

[DeeJay]

My guess is he'll return to the forum, look at this post, get his jollies and forward the link to all of his mates, they'll have a laugh to his face and call him the same names we have behind his back.

I saw the chimps at the zoo do the same thing one day. Right before they put on cheap suits and sold a soccermum a new 200 series Cruiser.

With that few posts, of course he will.
'nuff said

[Hymie]

The only thing Dave Stimson doesn't tell us, is what vehicles actually are Four Wheel Drive by his definition.

[Ken]

Hey Dave you drive a toyota eh do they make them for men now to or are they still a big girlie machine that undereducated people that havnt had the sense to buy a real 4X4 own hmmmmmmmmmmmmm :D:D:D

[Grizzly_Adams]

Guys is all this necessary?

The bloke has posted his beliefs, there's no call or reason to flame him. What he believes may or may not be wrong, it was certainly my interpretation of 4wd without getting pedantic else why would we need diff-locks (including the CDL)?

All the spite / name-calling / teasing does is make us all look like the intolerant idiots we aren't.

[p38arover]

My guess is he'll return to the forum, look at this post, get his jollies and forward the link to all of his mates, they'll have a laugh to his face and call him the same names we have behind his back.
.

You don't know him like I do. I've known him since the mid-Sixties when we both worked in OTC (until I left in 2002). I bought my Yamaha YDS2 motorbike off him in 1968.

[Chucaro]

My guess is he'll return to the forum, look at this post, get his jollies and forward the link to all of his mates, they'll have a laugh to his face and call him the same names we have behind his back.

I saw the chimps at the zoo do the same thing one day. Right before they put on cheap suits and sold a soccermum a new 200 series Cruiser.

I think that he will be back under different name and back up all the arguments given against his concept :D
I just wonder if he is for further north and when "tropo" under the influence of XXXX
Then again no.... we from Qld are more smart than that :D

[vnx205]

Ahhh but what is the differance between AWD and 4wd according to your theory :D

And there is one

It depends on who is telling the story.

I'm pretty sure my 1973 LWB Haflinger was described as an All Wheel Drive vehicle. At least it was sometimes.

I think they were trying to make the point that it was different from most standard 4WDs.

It had three levers on the floor.
All of them down gave you 2WD to the rear.
Pull up one and you had the same sort of 4WD as a Series LR.
Pull up another and you had a back diff lock.
Pull up the third and you also had a front diff lock. No more problems with diagonally opposite wheels suspended in the air. Mind you it was a bit hard to steer with the front diff locked.

[PAT303]

I think you all just fell into his trap.LR's aren't 4wd's on a LR forum!!!!.Bingo,let the fight begin.My defender,Disco and 2a hardtop are all 4wd's because the power goes to all four wheels just not at the same time but still to all four,hense 4wd.Let this post die. Pat

[discowhite]

I think you all just fell into his trap.LR's aren't 4wd's on a LR forum!!!!.Bingo,let the fight begin.My defender,Disco and 2a hardtop are all 4wd's because the power goes to all four wheels just not at the same time but still to all four,hense 4wd.Let this post die. Pat

ditto!
LR=3 diffs=2wd:eek:
everything else = 2 diffs= 1wheel drive?
if thats the logic than LR is still the best:twisted:

cheers phil

[Blknight.aus]

you can clear the dashlights by repairing the fault (good luck with that if you dont have diagnostics tools on hand) and then restarting the vehicle.

But this is not clearing the fault code, that will still be logged in memory.

[dobbo]

You don't know him like I do. I've known him since the mid-Sixties when we both worked in OTC (until I left in 2002). I bought my Yamaha YDS2 motorbike off him in 1968.

This is exactly the issue, we don't. Perhaps we would establish a different opinion on his profound statement if we did indead know him like you do. What he posted can be compared with a priest walking into gay bar and telling the patrons their all going to be turned to stone and burn in hell. Yes it's an effective way of getting your opinion across, but at the same time it wont win you many new friends.

[mcrover]

Land Rovers and Rangies are not technically 4WD's.
Because they are fitted with 3 differentials only one wheel is driving at any one time. The wheel with the least resistance gets the power. You can prove this by jacking up one wheel and attempt to drive away. (be careful doing this because 'oil drag etc' may give a small amount of drive to another wheel).
Hence a locking centre dif is provided to give - wait for it - one more wheel to drive. With centre dif locked the Rover is now a 2 WD.
Discovery 2 without a locking diff are given Traction Control to apply a brake to the spinning wheel.
So, a locking diff or traction control is absolutely required to give at least a 2 wheel drive functionality. Hence my previous Forum Question - how does one clear a TC /abs fault indicator if you are not near a dealer.

To cover the first partYou are 100% wrong so have a think about what all the others have said.

A 4wd is a vehical which has the potential to be driving all 4 wheels at the 1 time and Diffs are just torque splitters and when they have equal load to both axels they also have equal drive.

To cover the second sectionFit some ARB air lockers of the like and remove the globe.

Traction control doesnt make it 4wd, it means it has the potential to be 4wd but relies on the braking system to load up the side with less load to provide drive to the opposite wheel.

This is fine in most cases but anywhere that you need to keep the wheels spinning to keep momentum, TC is more than a hinderance than a help.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

This is a fun thread :)

Is there such a thing as a LR that is sold new in Aus that doesn't have at least TC?

[camel_landy]

Is there such a thing as a LR that is sold new in Aus that doesn't have at least TC?

Yes... The 130.

M

[stevo68]

Guys is all this necessary?

The bloke has posted his beliefs, there's no call or reason to flame him. What he believes may or may not be wrong, it was certainly my interpretation of 4wd without getting pedantic else why would we need diff-locks (including the CDL)?

All the spite / name-calling / teasing does is make us all look like the intolerant idiots we aren't.
Yep, I reckon so, rightly or wrongly some people just ask for it and they know it. Look at the thread title "Land Rovers are NOT 4WD's", someone with 4 posts on an all LR site and apparently doesnt even drive an LR, to then tell us we don't drive real 4WD's, c'mon :D and hasnt even posted a reply.....say's it all,

Regards

Stevo

P.S. That said have learnt some interesting info though from the responses for us non technical types.

[rangieman]

It depends on who is telling the story.

I'm pretty sure my 1973 LWB Haflinger was described as an All Wheel Drive vehicle. At least it was sometimes.

I think they were trying to make the point that it was different from most standard 4WDs.

It had three levers on the floor.
All of them down gave you 2WD to the rear.
Pull up one and you had the same sort of 4WD as a Series LR.
Pull up another and you had a back diff lock.
Pull up the third and you also had a front diff lock. No more problems with diagonally opposite wheels suspended in the air. Mind you it was a bit hard to steer with the front diff locked.
Oh yes the mighty haflinger , what a fantastic little 4WD they were and still are:D

[RonMcGr]

dont worry about him, he is from Overlander and drives a Part time 4wd...... Land fill accually.... TOYOTA

I thought that maybe the case.
BTW it is not our fault he cannot handle a REAL 4WD.
Asian er.. SUV's are lovely for taking the kids to school and the missus to go shopping in. Everyone gets a "buzz" from being safe?? Yeah, right!

[cwebb]

If the poster is talking about a Discovery 2, then he is exactly correct. When the center diff is unlocked, it is one wheel drive (or commonly all wheel drive). When driven on the road, all wheels will share power, possibly at different proportions. Likewise if all wheels are off the ground.
If you go off road and put it in a rut where 3 wheels are grounded, and one is in the air, without t/c, it will spin the useless wheel.
This was also demonstrated at the LROCV's Wandin 4WD show.
Center diff locked has a 50% drive front and rear. The only question is which wheel.
Once the center diff is locked, they are certainly classified as 4WD, and is exactly the same as a Patrol with the front hubs locked and in 4H or 4L.

[vnx205]

Oh yes the mighty haflinger , what a fantastic little 4WD they were and still are:D
Yes.
Apart from the fact that they could go places other 4WDs couldn't, how many other similar vehicles had a payload about the same as their unladen weight?

[dobbo]

If the poster is talking about a Discovery 2, then he is exactly correct. When the center diff is unlocked, it is one wheel drive (or commonly all wheel drive). When driven on the road, all wheels will share power, possibly at different proportions. Likewise if all wheels are off the ground.
If you go off road and put it in a rut where 3 wheels are grounded, and one is in the air, without t/c, it will spin the useless wheel.
This was also demonstrated at the LROCV's Wandin 4WD show.
Center diff locked has a 50% drive front and rear. The only question is which wheel.
Once the center diff is locked, they are certainly classified as 4WD, and is exactly the same as a Patrol with the front hubs locked and in 4H or 4L.

If this is correct why can you not establish oversteer or understeer if you have the TC and the CDL disengaged?

[rovercare]

If this is correct why can you not establish oversteer or understeer if you have the TC and the CDL disengaged?

You can get oversteer/understeer easily, just gotta go fast enough;)

[Blknight.aus]

you need to come driving with me.....

[dobbo]

you need to come driving with me.....


I never said I couldn't do it

the slow and the content - Google Video (http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=the+slow+and+the+content&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv)



just not on bitumen

[pawl]

If you go off road and put it in a rut where 3 wheels are grounded, and one is in the air, without t/c, it will spin the useless wheel.


Yes well this doesn't demonstrate if a vehicle is a 4WD or not, merely demonstrating the misgivings and the operation of an open diff for off road use. I can see how you use it to train people into thinking that a 4WD is not unstoppable and the training on the use of the CDL but I feel calling them a 1 wheel drive is incorrect and causes confusion like it obviously has to the original person who started this thread. With any open diff the drive will always be sent to the wheel with least resistance.

[Zute]

I think the difference is a 4wd, is a vehicle that powers 4wheels. Most semi's are 6x4. Two wheels at the front non driven, 4 on two axles driven.
AWD is what vehicle manufactures call cars that are not ALLTERAIN. They do it so its not thought of as a Truck.
What other Country calls "Jeeps, LR's Cruisers etc, Four Wheel Drives ?
Yanks use to call them Jeeps regardless the Brand. Now its SUV's ( Yuk ):mad:
4wd, Fourby, isn't that Aussie slang ?
Prado's and Cruisers will also spin one wheel unless the cdl is locked. (and lets not mention its LSD
Best system ? By far, Mitsubishi's Super Select.:angel:

[rangieman]

Yes.
Apart from the fact that they could go places other 4WDs couldn't, how many other similar vehicles had a payload about the same as their unladen weight?
Yep ive seen them do some amazing stuff a normal 4WD could,nt do:D

[rangieman]

I think the difference is a 4wd, is a vehicle that powers 4wheels. Most semi's are 6x4. Two wheels at the front non driven, 4 on two axles driven.
AWD is what vehicle manufactures call cars that are not ALLTERAIN. They do it so its not thought of as a Truck.
What other Country calls "Jeeps, LR's Cruisers etc, Four Wheel Drives ?
Yanks use to call them Jeeps regardless the Brand. Now its SUV's ( Yuk ):mad:
4wd, Fourby, isn't that Aussie slang ?
Prado's and Cruisers will also spin one wheel unless the cdl is locked. (and lets not mention its LSD
Best system ? By far, Mitsubishi's Super Select.:angel:

Yes that SUV name crept into Australia when holden had that septic tank Denny Moony as CEO running the company:eek:

That man has alot to answer for ,Thank god he has gone back to where he come from:cool:

[Blknight.aus]

using my crystal ball, the one that they supply you when you do the predicted maintenance part of a mechanics course (I hacked mine and removed the temporal portal spectrum limiter that prevents it from doing things other than working out when your next service and what it will invole)


I can see the future

heres how this thread ends.


Land Rovers are NOT 4WD's, they only drive one wheel. Lift it and you stop.. Toyotas are REAL four wheel drives

after which some smart ass is going to post this


given that they go as far and as well as they do, passing most toyotas with ease when off road, can you imagine what they will be capable of when landrover engineers get off their asses and work out how to make some of the other ones drive.

[graceysdad]

Well said Dave, buy yourself a beer mate

[Blknight.aus]

said smart ass will then edit his post to include this


Given that Landrovers are not four wheel drives would you like to explain how 1st place in 4x4 of the year went to the luxury type Landrover (Range Rover Sport) and the ulitlity version (Defender)took out second in front of the rest of the luxury type vehicles and did so looking like a house brick on wheels?

[BradM]

Well Said Dave!

BradM

[PAT303]

OK OK there is no such thing as a 4wd.All four wheels turn at different speeds when the vehicle turns either left or right so it is impossible to make a 4wd that has power to all four wheels all the time.The jap forum blokes are laughing at us. Pat

[sschmez]

The jap forum blokes are laughing at us.

nah, they're not ....
they're still jumping in and out of their SUV's, locking and unlocking their hubs ...... and still trying to work it out

[dobbo]

OK OK there is no such thing as a 4wd.All four wheels turn at different speeds when the vehicle turns either left or right so it is impossible to make a 4wd that has power to all four wheels all the time.The jap forum blokes are laughing at us. Pat



Why are they laughing?

Even though there is a difference in speed of the wheels when the car corners they are still all permanently powered.

[Bulldog]

I don't see why everyone is giving half answers to a very simple question. Try this (correct me if i'm wrong, i often am):

LandRover with a CDL:
* drives any 1 of 4 wheels at a time with CDL off
* drives any 1 rear and any 1 front with CDL on
* drives 2 rear and any 1 front with CDL on and rear a diff lock on
* drives 2 rear and 2 front with CDL on and front and rear diff locks on

Other 4WDs:
* drives any 1 of 2 rear wheels at a time with the small lever in 2WD
* drives any 1 rear and any 1 front with the small lever in 4WD
* drives 2 rear and any 1 front in "4WD" and rear a diff lock on
* drives 2 rear and 2 front in "4WD" and front and rear diff locks on

Obviously the last 2 points in each only apply if you have diff locks.
Explaination: a "driven" wheel refers to the situation where in mud or clay etc, that wheel will get you moving. Not refering to cornering etc.

Both types of cars have the same capabilities, with the exception of "CDL off" where the LR has the advantage of 1 of 4 wheels being driven instead of 2. Locking the CDL makes an LR exactly the same as a Toyota etc with 2 of a possible 4 wheels being driven at one time.

The CDL is not a bad thing:
pro - means you can get further without the need to lock the CDL (used for mud etc), and therefore cause less wear to the tyres and gearbox.
con - its not physically as strong as the "2WD/4WD" lever.

TC:
Simply replaces the need for the driver to decide when to lock the CDL, as it is done automatically when required (transfers driven wheel by pulsing the brake on the free-spinning one, so the next gets driven) . This is not a bad thing either, simply more usefull for some drivers. Its not intended to be a hardcore comp setup because 99.9% of the time is not used for that. It is intended to make the vehicle more "drivable" offroad without the need to be an expert.

I also think that the original post was just a stab to get us annoyed, but it wasn't very well thought thru. However, if we are going to bother to answer the question, it should be answered properly instead of arguing amongst ourselves about how our LRs work. It appears to me that this guy has read the "4WD" label on the small lever and thought that meant all 4 wheels. Not so.

Please correct me if any info is wrong.

[Dougal]

Please correct me if any info is wrong.

Okay.:)



LandRover with a CDL:
* drives any 1 of 4 wheels at a time with CDL off
* drives any 1 rear and any 1 front with CDL on
* drives 2 rear and any 1 front with CDL on and rear a diff lock on
* drives 2 rear and 2 front with CDL on and front and rear diff locks on


Nope.
All four wheels are driven, they have more or less the same torque sent to each of them. Just because traction conditions allow some to rotate while others don't, doesn't mean they're not driven.

Drive = Torque. Speed difference doesn't matter.

Difflocks just make each wheel turn at the same speed, which creates vastly different amounts of torque to be sent to each wheel. A locked diff does not provide a 50:50 torque split. It provides anything from 100:0 to 0:100.

[Bulldog]

Okay.:)



Nope.
All four wheels are driven, they have more or less the same torque sent to each of them. Just because traction conditions allow some to rotate while others don't, doesn't mean they're not driven.

Drive = Torque. Speed difference doesn't matter.

Difflocks just make each wheel turn at the same speed, which creates vastly different amounts of torque to be sent to each wheel. A locked diff does not provide a 50:50 torque split. It provides anything from 100:0 to 0:100.

1. If all four wheels are driven, why doesn't my car move when the 2 (eg) RH side wheels are spinning. Wouldn't the others drive it out (remember, i'm talking mud here, not roads).

2. If the diff lock (as in cross-axle, not the CDL) was on, how can it drive 100:0? Whats the point of a diff lock then? The "100" wheel might be spinning in mud...

[dave stimson]

Oh how contemporary and myopic some people have become.

Only some Land Rovers have 3 differentials.
Only some models do not have the ability to lock the centre diff.
Even with the third diff, when all wheels have equal traction (and load) all 4 wheels drive.
Are we about to suggest that most cars on the road are 1 wheel drive.

Diana

Reply from Dave S

Yes, most cars on the road are echnically one wheel drive.
I agree that equal traction will provide equal drive but this does not happen all the time. Especially when one wheel is bogged or off the ground.

[Dougal]

1. If all four wheels are driven, why doesn't my car move when the 2 (eg) RH side wheels are spinning. Wouldn't the others drive it out (remember, i'm talking mud here, not roads).

2. If the diff lock (as in cross-axle, not the CDL) was on, how can it drive 100:0? Whats the point of a diff lock then? The "100" wheel might be spinning in mud...

1. The torque applied to all wheels is limited by the wheel with the least grip. In your case the RH wheel's lack of traction is reducing the torque available. Both wheels are still driven, torque split is always 50:50.

2. Think of one wheel in the air, the other on tarmac and the diff locked. The torque to applied to the wheel with traction is 100%, there is no significant torque to the wheel in the air.
Hence 100:0 torque split.

*edit*
Your confusion is probably arising from you thinking torque and motion are the same thing. But they are not.
Equal wheel speed does not mean a 50:50 torque split.
*/edit*

[dave stimson]

Well Said Dave!

BradM

Thanks for that.
It is amazing how many people dont understand how diffs work (as you can judge from the responses).

[100I]

Land Rovers and Rangies are not technically 4WD's.
Because they are fitted with 3 differentials only one wheel is driving at any one time. The wheel with the least resistance gets the power. You can prove this by jacking up one wheel and attempt to drive away. (be careful doing this because 'oil drag etc' may give a small amount of drive to another wheel).
Hence a locking centre dif is provided to give - wait for it - one more wheel to drive. With centre dif locked the Rover is now a 2 WD.
Discovery 2 without a locking diff are given Traction Control to apply a brake to the spinning wheel.

So, a locking diff or traction control is absolutely required to give at least a 2 wheel drive functionality. Hence my previous Forum Question - how does one clear a TC /abs fault indicator if you are not near a dealer.
How many people here actually bothered to read and digest the original post?
He IS correct.
And read the last line - he has a D2 (with TC problems and obviously no CDL, so he cannot achieve 4WD capability).
He is not a Toyota driving LR basher.

*******.

[Dougal]

He IS correct.

No he's not. He's simply repeating a very common misconception.

You can find a thousand people who agree with you, but still be wrong.

[dobbo]

How many people here actually bothered to read and digest the original post?
He IS correct.
And read the last line - he has a D2 (with TC problems and obviously no CDL, so he cannot achieve 4WD capability).
He is not a Toyota driving LR basher.

*******.

Oh great agitator of ones own member

None of his posts state he owns one

but to confirm

Is this true Dave Stimson do you own a Land Rover?

[dave stimson]

I don't see why everyone is giving half answers to a very simple question. Try this (correct me if i'm wrong, i often am):

LandRover with a CDL:
* drives any 1 of 4 wheels at a time with CDL off
* drives any 1 rear and any 1 front with CDL on
* drives 2 rear and any 1 front with CDL on and rear a diff lock on
* drives 2 rear and 2 front with CDL on and front and rear diff locks on

Other 4WDs:
* drives any 1 of 2 rear wheels at a time with the small lever in 2WD
* drives any 1 rear and any 1 front with the small lever in 4WD
* drives 2 rear and any 1 front in "4WD" and rear a diff lock on
* drives 2 rear and 2 front in "4WD" and front and rear diff locks on

Obviously the last 2 points in each only apply if you have diff locks.
Explaination: a "driven" wheel refers to the situation where in mud or clay etc, that wheel will get you moving. Not refering to cornering etc.

Both types of cars have the same capabilities, with the exception of "CDL off" where the LR has the advantage of 1 of 4 wheels being driven instead of 2. Locking the CDL makes an LR exactly the same as a Toyota etc with 2 of a possible 4 wheels being driven at one time.

The CDL is not a bad thing:
pro - means you can get further without the need to lock the CDL (used for mud etc), and therefore cause less wear to the tyres and gearbox.
con - its not physically as strong as the "2WD/4WD" lever.

TC:
Simply replaces the need for the driver to decide when to lock the CDL, as it is done automatically when required (transfers driven wheel by pulsing the brake on the free-spinning one, so the next gets driven) . This is not a bad thing either, simply more usefull for some drivers. Its not intended to be a hardcore comp setup because 99.9% of the time is not used for that. It is intended to make the vehicle more "drivable" offroad without the need to be an expert.

I also think that the original post was just a stab to get us annoyed, but it wasn't very well thought thru. However, if we are going to bother to answer the question, it should be answered properly instead of arguing amongst ourselves about how our LRs work. It appears to me that this guy has read the "4WD" label on the small lever and thought that meant all 4 wheels. Not so.

Please correct me if any info is wrong.


Your above obsrvations are correct, I did the original post simply to get people interested in how to overcome the problem off getting stuck (with one wheel drive !!! ) when the TC doesn't work and D2 not fitted with a CDL.
It has proven worthwhile because it exposed many peoples mistaken belief that 4WD means 4WD - regards Dave Stimson

[Bulldog]

1. The torque applied to all wheels is limited by the wheel with the least grip. In your case the RH wheel's lack of traction is reducing the torque available. Both wheels are still driven, torque split is always 50:50.

2. Think of one wheel in the air, the other on tarmac and the diff locked. The torque to applied to the wheel with traction is 100%, there is no significant torque to the wheel in the air.
Hence 100:0 torque split.

*edit*
Your confusion is probably arising from you thinking torque and motion are the same thing. But they are not.
Equal wheel speed does not mean a 50:50 torque split.
*/edit*

1. So back to my original point, with CDL off in a LR, if 1 wheel is spinning with no traction the car won't move. with CDL on, if 2 wheels are spinning with no traction the car won't move. Right?

2. With my example in (1.), a diff lock will get the cross-axle wheel moving the car. Right?

Maybe if i replaced the word "driven" with "gets the car moving". Hmmm...

[Bulldog]

Your above obsrvations are correct, I did the original post simply to get people interested in how to overcome the problem off getting stuck (with one wheel drive !!! ) when the TC doesn't work and D2 not fitted with a CDL.
It has proven worthwhile because it exposed many peoples mistaken belief that 4WD means 4WD - regards Dave Stimson

Put you're foot (lightly) on the brake and accelerate.

[BigJon]

Your above obsrvations are correct, I did the original post simply to get people interested in how to overcome the problem off getting stuck (with one wheel drive !!! ) when the TC doesn't work and D2 not fitted with a CDL.
It has proven worthwhile because it exposed many peoples mistaken belief that 4WD means 4WD - regards Dave Stimson

His above observations are NOT correct. And your first post has assumptions that are NOT correct. I sincerely believe the person with poor understanding of differential action is you. There are assertations made regarding how many wheels are driven (recieve torque) at any one time that are simply incorrect.

I certainly don't take issue with the comment that non CDL equipped Disco IIs with non working traction control are not very good offroad in low traction / wheel lifting situations. That part is true enough, hence why LR went back to fitting CDL mechanisms.

[mojo]

Land Rovers and Rangies are not technically 4WD's.


I think this whole thread could have been alot shorter if the above had been worded slightly differenly:

While Landrovers and Rangies ARE technically 4WD's, in some circumstances (i.e. when a D2 with no TC or CDL has a wheel spinning) the drive/torque being applied to the wheels will not actually be enough to move the vehicle.

:)

[CraigE]

Interesting thread, but at the end of the day all 4x4s in 4wd should have power going to all 4 wheels. This does not mean all 4 wheels will turn, the wheel with least resistance will get the majority of power and turn. Look at a standard 4x4 in mud, normally you will end up with one front and one rear trying to turn and do most of the work. The only way in my opinion to get true 4wd is to fit lockers. The whole point of a diff is it will load torque to the appropriate wheel for drive.

[easo]

Theis arnt bad for a 2 wheel (sprocket) drive.
They can go every where.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/01/524.jpg

[scrambler]

This whole thread is based around arguements over what "Drive" means in "4 Wheel Drive." It means "the number of wheels that receive drive i.e. have a drive shaft." It DOESN'T mean "the number of wheels being turned at any given moment." IF you mean "the number of wheels which, if spinning, will stop the vehicle" then only a vehicle with both cross-axle and centre differential (or drive shaft) locking devices will qualify. But in that case a vehicle with traction control DOES qualify as "4 wheel spin required to stop movement" because they device limits wheelspin.

A RWD car is NOT "1 wheel drive" - a motorcycle is "1 wheel drive."

The whole misconception that "4wd" means power to all 4 wheels all the time DOES need to to be addressed with newcomers, but saying the vehicles are NOT 4wd is every bit as confusing. For starters, Ford have their 1-tonner available with a rear LSD. This means you need to spin 2 wheels, the same as an open-dif 4wd (of any brand). They say it can go 80% of the places a 4wd can go. BUT the 4wd will be harder to bog. Why? Because it has less torque at each wheel for the given output. That's because provided each wheel has grip, 1/4 of the torque will go to the wheel, and in the Ford ute 1/2 the torque will go to each driven wheel. THAT is 4wd. EVEN with the centre diff open, the 4wd will be harder to bog (depending on the exact situation) due to reduced torque at each wheel as well as better articulation.

And what is "All-Wheel Drive"? It's a marketing slogan by Subaru that's been taken over by the industry at large. It refers to a road-going vehicle with constant (Subaru did not use it on their earlier part-time systems). Subaru apply the label even to the WRX STI which, according to the warped logic of the original post, is a "true" 4wd because you need to spin all 4 wheels to bog it.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Theis arnt bad for a 2 wheel (sprocket) drive.
They can go every where.

Easo Strictly speaking a tracked vehicle is only a 2 wheel vehicle* so should not be compared to 4WD.
Tracked vehicles like bulldosers and tanks have problems on slippery surfaces and because of their weight sink straight through surface crusts. They can even have problems loading onto "low-loader" transporters, if there is too much steel and not enough grip.
Diana :D

* the interface between the ground and the track is equivalent to the flat part of the tyre when it is sitting on the road. However you have to imagine a wheel of enormous diameter that would result in a flat equivalent of the length of the track.

[mcrover]

Theis arnt bad for a 2 wheel (sprocket) drive.
They can go every where.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/01/524.jpg


Sorry easo but thats like saying that I have a 16 gear drive vehical (due to counting all the gears in all the diffs), not a 4wd as the drive sprokets are a mechanical drive part and not a wheels as such and I would probably think that they are Hydraulic drive so not likely to have a gear box but I wouldnt know as Ive never worked on a Tank :D.


As I and all the people who actually know anything about it have said, a 4wd is a vehical which has the potential to provide drive to all 4 wheels.

Early Subaru's are true 4wds, the earliest didnt have low range but were still a mechanical drive front to rear but the later with an electronic/Hydraulic coupling which can provide different % of drive is a true all wheel drive (AWD) due to them not being built to be used off sealed surfaces.

As far as using light braking to provide drive to the loaded wheels can work occasionally but generally due to the fronts getting more braking than the rear all you do is generally bog the rear down more while stopping the fronts but anything is worth a try before you get the winch out.

I have seen a really good set up which the bloke had 4 switches on the dash and if he X axeled he would stop and put his foot right down on the brake and flick the switches which coinsided with the unloaded wheels which through small solonoids would lock them out and provide drive to the other 2 wheels.

It was on a Suzuki and worked a treat and was a lot nicer on diffs and axels than lockers and a lot cheaper to set up.

As far as your question with the D2 goes...............

If you are after an answer then dont try to peeve everyone off before you ask your question and you may get an answer.

But in saying that, take your vehical to your nearest LR dealer and give them lots and lots of money and they will fix it.

If you dont want to be reliant on dealers or well equiped workshops that can reset codes and test your electronics then dont buy a vehical that relies on electronics to provide drive to all 4 wheels.

[DiscoStew]

Your above obsrvations are correct, I did the original post simply to get people interested in how to overcome the problem off getting stuck (with one wheel drive !!! ) when the TC doesn't work and D2 not fitted with a CDL.

As answered by Bulldog, you put pressure on the brake and accelerator at the same time. He wisely says lightly apply pressure to the brake however in the one time I needed to do this I needed quite a bit of pressure to get over the crest of the hill I was on. It also feels really weird as it is so counter-intuitive.




As far as using light braking to provide drive to the loaded wheels can work occasionally but generally due to the fronts getting more braking than the rear all you do is generally bog the rear down more while stopping the fronts but anything is worth a try before you get the winch out.

Perhaps I was lucky that it was the front wheel that was off the ground.

[Dougal]

1. So back to my original point, with CDL off in a LR, if 1 wheel is spinning with no traction the car won't move. with CDL on, if 2 wheels are spinning with no traction the car won't move. Right?

2. With my example in (1.), a diff lock will get the cross-axle wheel moving the car. Right?

Maybe if i replaced the word "driven" with "gets the car moving". Hmmm...

Yes that's basically it.

[Dougal]

Put you're foot (lightly) on the brake and accelerate.

I've never had any success with that method. Probably because by the time I'm trying that, I'm very very stuck.

[BradM]

Originally Posted by Blknight.aus
Given that Landrovers are not four wheel drives would you like to explain how 1st place in 4x4 of the year went to the luxury type Landrover (Range Rover Sport) and the ulitlity version (Defender)took out second in front of the rest of the luxury type vehicles and did so looking like a house brick on wheels?


Originally Posted by BradM
Well Said Dave!


Thanks for that.
It is amazing how many people dont understand how diffs work (as you can judge from the responses).

I fail to see the connection with the working of my Disco's diff and 4x4 of the year. :( Did I miss something?

BradM

[mcrover]

How many people here actually bothered to read and digest the original post?
He IS correct.
And read the last line - he has a D2 (with TC problems and obviously no CDL, so he cannot achieve 4WD capability).
He is not a Toyota driving LR basher.

*******.

So Dan, can you be specific as to whom might that comment be directed toward?

Is to all members that disagreed with him (which would include Blknight, Dougal a dozen other people and my self) or is it meant for a few people in particular?

He is wrong, deffinatly wrong and if you think he is right then you are also wrong.

Clarkie was the only one that said he was a toyo driver and that was apparently as he knows of him off another forum (as per his post) and I dont think anyone else said much to say about what he drove.

It's not my place to police this sort of thing but what the hell, no one else seemed to have picked it up or was everyone else just ignoring it.

[hiline]

pop corn time again :whistling:

[dannydisco1]

im confused as to why anybody thinks a car with one wheel spinning in the air is "one wheel drive"..
if anything wouldnt you call it a "one wheel not drive" ?? is the car moving ?
then your own argument defeats itself..
when the car was moving all four wheels were driving..
when i drive my disco in high range with all diffs unlocked, all four wheels are driving, they all get different power at different times, this is the wonder of differential gearing..
early model d2 with no cdl are four wheel drive, unfortunalty the traction control is not good enough and they can become "one wheel not drives"
but so are basically any car. mine will with out the cdl, but my car is never one wheel drive..
a one wheel drive car is a motorbike..
easy solution is to keep your wheels on the ground, even easier is to spend some pocket money on a cdl..
those that agree with the original post are, in my humble opinion a little misguided and in need of some differential learning..

[rovercare]

pop corn time again :whistling:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (javascript:emoticon(':popcorn:'))

These arguments make me want to https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (javascript:emoticon(':microwave:'))

[100I]

So Dan, can you be specific as to whom might that comment be directed toward?

Is to all members that disagreed with him (which would include Blknight, Dougal a dozen other people and my self) or is it meant for a few people in particular?

He is wrong, deffinatly wrong and if you think he is right then you are also wrong.

Clarkie was the only one that said he was a toyo driver and that was apparently as he knows of him off another forum (as per his post) and I dont think anyone else said much to say about what he drove.

It's not my place to police this sort of thing but what the hell, no one else seemed to have picked it up or was everyone else just ignoring it.

Ok the wording was a bit harsh, I'm trying to quit patches, that's my defence, so I'll take that back.:oops2: I just get fed up with the ridiculous intolerance that goes on sometimes.

My point was more to do with labeling him. People going straight on the defensive that anybody should say a bad word about their beloved LR, assuming he must be another Toyo driving LR basher so let's fling some poo at him, and there was more than 1 but I really can't be bothered to trawl back thru.

And to me, his definition is correct when, with TC disabled and no CDL a D2 is just an AWD. As is an early RR.
With my CDL unlocked I consider my D1 is just an AWD.
True 4x4 couldn't be achieved without lockers.

[hiline]

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/new_popcornsmiley.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:popcorn:%27%29)

These arguments make me want to http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/new_microwave.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:emoticon%28%27:microwave:%27%29)


when these sort of comments come forward :angel:

So Dan, can you be specific as to whom might that comment be directed toward?

Is to all members that disagreed with him (which would include Blknight, Dougal a dozen other people and my self) or is it meant for a few people in particular?

He is wrong, deffinatly wrong and if you think he is right then you are also wrong.

its popcorn time .............

[Davo]

This is better than Home and Away . . . :D

In the meantime, I'll just be out working on my, ahem, four-wheel-drive.

Because I know how diffs work! Why, only yesterday I was looking at a diff I had just taken out of an axle.

When I turned the pinion the whole diff centre turned. Including the side gears! Which would normally be attached to the axle shafts! Which would turn the wheels! Both of them!!! At the same time!!!

And with - correct me if I'm wrong - one diff per axle housing, then four wheels would be driven!

I think I'll patent this idea. I'll sell it to all those one-wheel-drive manufacturers.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[hiline]

Davo you'll make a fortune with that idea :D

[twitchy]

Ahhh but what is the differance between AWD and 4wd according to your theory :D

And there is one

all wheel drives are different as a "4wd" Has a TRANSFER CASE......... High & low range ability is the defining thing with all wheel as opposed to four wheel drive.

[p38arover]

Stimmo, do you own a D2?

BTW, does Wobbly still drive a D1?

Ron

[Blknight.aus]

I fail to see the connection with the working of my Disco's diff and 4x4 of the year. :( Did I miss something?

BradM



certainly did, check out the diff setup in the RRS (and the new deefer) and you'll find that in mechanical principal its the same as the D2 (and the D1, stage 1s, counties, deefers, rangies, and infact pretty much any rover that has (not the freelander sorry guys your in a kettle of fish all your own) 3 diffs in its same same.... Why? when your onto a good thing stick to it.

and thats about as far as I want to get involved in this little debate..

2 reasons

1. We've done it before
2. its the same principal as the "I can prove I have 11 fingers" joke...

most of you are right, you're all talking about the same thing But from different sides of the same coin and your not quite getting the concept that both arguments are valid and for the same reasons...

[Jamo]

When the D3 was on her belly at the edge of the lake a couple of weeks ago, all four wheels were going round, making lots of splashes. So I had four wheel drive, not that it did me any good.

I think I may re-read this thread if I can't sleep tonight.

[loanrangie]

I think this thread should be locked, you are just fuelling his fire ! He is probably watching this thread and laughing at what he has started - enough already, he's a tool end of story.

[rovercare]

I think this thread should be locked, you are just fuelling his fire ! He is probably watching this thread and laughing at what he has started - enough already, he's a tool end of story.

He owns a D2, hes asked in another thread about some issues.....................best not call people tool's, sometimes it highlights your own mistakes

[Hymie]

I still want to know from Dave, the original poster, what vehicle he considers to be a four wheel drive?

[harry]

mods,
how about stopping this drivel.
the original poster has posted 7 times since joining in dec 07, and this thread is only showing how easily it is to bait a hook.

[loanrangie]

mods,
how about stopping this drivel.
the original poster has posted 7 times since joining in dec 07, and this thread is only showing how easily it is to bait a hook.

Thanks Harry, exactly my point and RC -like you can talk.

[vnx205]

At least my understanding of how diffs work is a little more advanced than when I was about 8 or 10 yrs old.
My father was working on the family truck in readiness for our annual holiday. He had both back wheels of the ground and i guess it must have been in gear because he told me (with a perfectly straight face) that he had pulled the diff apart and must have put something in backwards because it wasn't working right.
He demonstrated this by turning one wheel forward.
When I saw the other wheel turning backwards, I was terribly upset because I believed his story and was sure that our holiday would have to be put on hold until he could get both wheels turning the same way.
I hope that some of the comments in some posts are just examples of the same sort of sense of humour that my father had that day.
i would like to believe that most of the comments (on both sides, or however many side this discussion now has) are just a stir.

[incisor]

man cant turn his back for a few hours with out there being an iq dousing testosterone explosion...

surely you can have a robust discussion without the drivel... or if you cant, feel free to go and do it some place else... i am sure they would love the post count escalation...

now stop the name calling.... ya mob of girlie's :mad::angel: and speak you mind without playing the player... or reducing it to personality attacks...

[dave stimson]

Yes Ron , mine is a D2
Webster still has a D1
My post caused a bit of mayhem hasn't it !!!
50% agree with me - and 50% know the truth

[B92 8NW]

man cant turn his back for a few hours with out there being an iq dousing testosterone explosion...


This is really quite amazing, testosterone levels are highest at around 8 AM. The most insulting posts correlate almost perfectly - they start at around 7 AM, build to a climax (oooh errrr:whistling:) by 8 AM and settle down as the day goes on.

Maybe it is possible that changes in hormone levels can be used as a defence for being insulting, slanderous and rude. Its just a shame that the clock is wrong.:D

[stevo68]

Yes Ron , mine is a D2
Webster still has a D1
My post caused a bit of mayhem hasn't it !!!
50% agree with me - and 50% know the truth
Mate, maybe you should look at what the point was of the initial thread in the first place. One on hand you put in bold and capitals that LR's are not real 4WD, there is a brief bit of info....no point to it, then a question on TC and ABS. Might pay to put some thought on how one proposes a question, or what the actual point is...especially in the tech section :).

Also for those of you who jump on a thread and ask for it to be closed etc, if you don't like the thread, don't read it. Overall it has been a robust discussion and on the whole pretty well contained. I for sure have learnt alot :D,

Regards

Stevo

[p38arover]

Clarkie was the only one that said he was a toyo driver and that was apparently as he knows of him off another forum (as per his post) and I dont think anyone else said much to say about what he drove.

Clarkie's statement was in jest. He doesn't know Dave. Dave lives in Sinney (Schofields) and you'll see his name occasionally in leters to the Editor of the Sinney papers.

In fact, I don't think I've ever seen Stimmo on another forum, not even Two Wheels (are you still a committed motor bike rider and working for Siemens, Dave?)

Ron

[BigJon]

50% agree with me - and 50% know the truth

And they are not the same 50% :D

[wheelie77]

I have only recently noteced this fact when getting bogged whilst still having great traction to two of the 4 wheels :(. So i am trying to work out what the solution to this annoying problem is??? I am wondering if i should invest in a arb diff locker and if i should get it in the front or rear?

dave

[mcrover]

I have only recently noteced this fact when getting bogged whilst still having great traction to two of the 4 wheels :(. So i am trying to work out what the solution to this annoying problem is??? I am wondering if i should invest in a arb diff locker and if i should get it in the front or rear?

dave


If you are just buying 1 then you should stick it in the rear :D

This is why things like Locking Diffs and TC were invented and if you have ever driven a vehical with a solid rear axel (or diff lock which is locked) you would find that they are not fun to turn on solid surfaces and can cause damage to componants due to the different axial speeds.

Enter the Differential :arms::arms: to over come this problem by allowing the driven wheels to rotate at different speeds while turning yet still having drive.

Now I think we all know why we need diffs and that they distribute power in relation to load and that TC and diff locking devices will allow all wheels to drive regardless of load.

[dungarover]

Three words, WHO ****ING CARES!!!!!!!!!. That's my thoughts on the matter

Anyway, time for another beer (that's more important :beer::beer:)

Trav

[procrastination inc]

I have only recently noteced this fact when getting bogged whilst still having great traction to two of the 4 wheels . So i am trying to work out what the solution to this annoying problem is??? I am wondering if i should invest in a arb diff locker and if i should get it in the front or rear?.......

I spun 2 wheels when crossed up on an inch of sloppy clay, just lightly held the brake while softly accelerating and walked out

[Reads90]

I spun 2 wheels when crossed up on an inch of sloppy clay, just lightly held the brake while softly accelerating and walked out

Old trick that works really well, I call it man made traction control :):)

[p38arover]

I was talking to Stimmo today. He's got a '99 D2 bought new - now with 300,000km on the Td5.

He's getting the 3 Amigos appearing on the dash.

[dungarover]

Old trick that works really well, I call it man made traction control :):)

And YOU'RE in control, not some bloody computer telling you when (always been my beef with ETC).

Trav

[strange_rover1]

As far as I am concerned it is a 4wd if all of the four wheels have the potential to provide drive at any given time!!
Shano

[blitz]

Well I have diff lockers front and rear and still had to use my winch to pull out, about 240ft; even the trailer was boggered. I was fenching on my block and down the bottom it is wet. This happens in the wet season. It was a cross between quick sand and peat bog.

My point being it doesnt matter if it is 4wd or not unless you have a winch you can get very stuck - worst in fact if you have lockers because they will get you further into the bloody bog.

Cheers Blythe

[jmkoffice]

Yes well this doesn't demonstrate if a vehicle is a 4WD or not, merely demonstrating the misgivings and the operation of an open diff for off road use. I can see how you use it to train people into thinking that a 4WD is not unstoppable and the training on the use of the CDL but I feel calling them a 1 wheel drive is incorrect and causes confusion like it obviously has to the original person who started this thread. With any open diff the drive will always be sent to the wheel with least resistance.
I found the DII without a CDL absolutely useless in extreme articulated situations.

An easy explanation for the 1wd / 2wd theory is: where a CDL is not engaged, a minimum of 1 wheel is required to spin in order to transfer drive from the engine through the gearbox, through the transfer case then to either the front or rear diff. Whereas, when a CDL is engaged, a minimum of 2 wheels are required to spin, one rear and one front.

LR's belief that TC replaced the CDL was not entirely correct. Again in extreme articulated situations without the CDL engaged, TC can be severely limited. Both wheels on one axle can be static on the ground and both wheels on the other axle can spin alternatively depending on grip. In this scenario (climbing a steep uneven slope), TC was only be able to calculate spin on either of the alternatively spinning wheels on the one axle. Apparently, TC on Discos are programmed for trans-axle calculation. TC requires an amount of wheel spin to be able to calculate an average speed. In this scenario, I was totally stuck without drive to the two wheels with adequate grip on the ground. A CDL would have forced drive to the diff with gripping wheels.

My DII originally had no CDL. After the abovementioned experience I had one fitted. I has made the vehicle far more capable. The TC now has an opportunity to calculate at least one wheel spinning on either axle.

Anyway, what I have written here is based on my experiences and technical material I have read.. I believe a CDL is mandatory in order to have extreme fun!

Regards

Johann