Metal in oil

[CraigE]

Not good, did an oil change this morning and when emptying old oil into drum noticed some gritty filings like sand but maybe metal and a piece of shiny metal about 1/2cm x 1/2cm in the pan. Suspectig maybe bearing cap??:(
Not good anyway.Put it in the back shed this arvo and will have to pull off sump. Anyone seen anything similar that I need to look for??:(

[graceysdad]

Not sounding very promising mate, sounds like shes maybe spun a big end or getting close to it, best of luck with it hopefully not to nasty

[rick130]

:eek::eek::eek:

was the drain pan really clean before starting the change ?

If so :eek::eek::eek:

[Blknight.aus]

if youve still got the filter disect it and then if thats loaded with metal particals drop the sump and inspect that + the strainer for the oil pump.

[Graz]

Craig
Not good news. As Dave stated crack the filter open and inspect for metal. If you don't have a filter cutter run a hacksaw cut around the side of the filter next to the seam. A magnet will help you identify what metal it is if any is found. Easier than taking the sump off.
If you don't find any metal suggest you fit a new filter and take it for a long run ( At least 10 hours ) then crack the filter and inspect again.
How many clicks has it done?
Regards

[LandyAndy]

Not good Craig!!!!!
Some time ago there was a post on extra bits found in a TD5 during an oil change.
May be worth a search,or somebody may recall the thread.
Goodluck
Andrew

[CraigE]

Have the sump off, no real metal or filings in the sump. Will split the filter and check as had just replaced it. No engine abnormal noise. Next will be the oil pump and stiffener plate so I can see if it has come from the main bearings or thrust washers. Hopefuly I can pick without having to remove the crank. I have not had the sump right off so may have been there for some time, only dropped the sump and replaced gasket (sat on diff). A tip, you do not have to remove the exhaust, just jack up the gearbox a little and the sump will come completely out.
Glad I found this anyway rather than it go bang miles from anywhere. I gather by checking the filter this may tel me if it is a problem or just a bit of crap left over. Oh well I get to check the oil pump bolt again.
Anyway back into it for a bit.

[CraigE]

Sump off, oil pump and stiffener plate off and can not see anything that even resembles where this may have come from. No indication of piece from bearing caps or bores. Looks a bit like hard facing but seems to curve the wrong way for bearings or bore liner. shiny side on curve out, dull side curved in, should be opposite in my experience of bearings.
There is a mark on one of the big end bearing caps, a green stroke, do not know what this means or if it means that bearing was replaced. At a bit of a loss as I would have thought a piece this big 3/4cm x 1/2cm now measured would leave some tell tale mark as to where it would have come from. I would have thought if it was a bearing it would have been in a lot smaller pieces as the gap it would have had to come out would have been tiny.
The engine is not making any strange noises or squeals. Is there anything like this in the timing gear asembly that may have self destructed??
Maybe next pull off bottom bearing caps to inspect one at a time.

[Graeme]

Not good Craig!!!!!
Some time ago there was a post on extra bits found in a TD5 during an oil change.
May be worth a search,or somebody may recall the thread.
Goodluck
Andrew
Someone had a problem with a thrust washer/bearing.

[CraigE]

Thanks Graeme, had a look at that post, but does not look like a bearing. Just spoke to my bilaw who is a diesel meck and he reckons look at timing gear teeth. Has seen it hapen many times on Caterpillar diesels, so something else to look at. He would be suprised to see a piece end up in the sump that size from a bearing as normally the disnegrate or shred rather than chip. But has told me how to remove and replace bearings without having to remove the crankshaft, so will be checking them as a minimum and probablly replacing them as a matter of course.
With the description of the piece I found says it does not sound like a bearing shell.
Heres hoping.:D
Missus was suprised as I have taken it on the chin. I am overit as a mate says, we just have to do whatever is required.

[sclarke]

So you pulled it down without finding out what the metal was???

WOW your keen, id be taking the metal to an engine rebuilder and asking what they thought.......

Alot of engines shred small parts of metal and it may never be bearing....

[Blknight.aus]

not to be the harbringer of death but what if its a bit of gudgen pin sleve?

[CraigE]

Not gudgeon pin metal either, can see them fairly clearly.
Weird one.
In my opinion it does not appear to be bearing shell material as a piece that size could not get out without being shattered or shaved into tiny pieces.
Plus this metal is highly magnetic. My BIlaws and another mech friends opinion is that the bearing shell material should not be very magnetic if at all being white metal. He isnot 100% as has not magnetically tested bearing shell material in at least the last 10 years. Anyone have a bearing shell they can test a magnet on to confirm this??:)

May pull the bearing caps off and check. lso may have come from tiing chain area of motor or could be just residue from a previous job or just swarf, who knows. Will also pull off rocker cover and loo down the front. If not the bearing shells or timing gear wil put back together and see what happens.

[CraigE]

So you pulled it down without finding out what the metal was???

WOW your keen, id be taking the metal to an engine rebuilder and asking what they thought.......

Alot of engines shred small parts of metal and it may never be bearing....
Clarkie,
You may be right and it may be one of those twilight zone things. Have not pulled the whole engine down just the sump, oil pump and stiffener plate and will check main and bige end bearing caps in car, BIlaw has told me how to do without removing the crank.
Cheers
Craig

[CraigE]

if youve still got the filter disect it and then if thats loaded with metal particals drop the sump and inspect that + the strainer for the oil pump.
Done that and nadda. Filter was clear as a bell, no fillings, gunk etc, oil pickup clear etc.:eek:

[CraigE]

:eek::eek::eek:

was the drain pan really clean before starting the change ?

If so :eek::eek::eek:
MMMM, I thought so but maybe not. Asks the question though where did it cone from?????;)

[Lucus]

How are the timing gears mounted in these engines? Do they sit on a spigot? Sounds like hard facing off a bearing surface. If its 1/2cm by 1/2cm is sounds a bit big to be timing gear tooth hardfacing?

Do these engines run wear sleves for the crank seals? possible it could be a failling wear sleve.

There isnt too much in a modern metal bearing (besides the backing) thats magnetic. Metal bearing surfaces arent usually shiny (ie chrome) in apperance.

Are you able to take and happy snaps of the debris?

Are you anywhere near any heavy equipment dealers? If you dont find any thing obvious and put it back together, do a couple of thousand k's and then take and oil sample and get it analysised. This should help you out.

Edit: its not the type of chrome one would chip off a cheap socket or sanner is it??

[CraigE]

How are the timing gears mounted in these engines? Do they sit on a spigot? Sounds like hard facing off a bearing surface. If its 1/2cm by 1/2cm is sounds a bit big to be timing gear tooth hardfacing?

Do these engines run wear sleves for the crank seals? possible it could be a failling wear sleve.

There isnt too much in a modern metal bearing (besides the backing) thats magnetic. Metal bearing surfaces arent usually shiny (ie chrome) in apperance.

Are you able to take and happy snaps of the debris?

Are you anywhere near any heavy equipment dealers? If you dont find any thing obvious and put it back together, do a couple of thousand k's and then take and oil sample and get it analysised. This should help you out.

Edit: its not the type of chrome one would chip off a cheap socket or sanner is it??
Yeah that was our thoughts. Looks like some sort of hard facing. Not off a spanner etc. Looks like polished metal one side and grey the other, will try and post a pic.

[Lucus]

Im no land rover diesel eng guru but i have done a lot of caterpillar eng "why did it go pop" tear downs and may be able to give an idea of where its from.


cheers
Luke

[CraigE]

Im no land rover diesel eng guru but i have done a lot of caterpillar eng "why did it go pop" tear downs and may be able to give an idea of where its from.


cheers
Luke
Pics not turning out tonight, will try again in daylight. BILaw is same and done lots of Cat engines. Definately very magnetic. I am more than capable of rebuilds but would like to detrmine where it came from. It is polished metal on one side (same colour as sprocket teeth) and a dull grey unpolished metal on the other and has a very slight cure to it. Thanks for the input, not something I have seen before. Apart from this the engine and components are spotlessly clean.

[Lucus]

Its sounds very much like hard facing off a shaft.

[Tank]

Pics not turning out tonight, will try again in daylight. BILaw is same and done lots of Cat engines. Definately very magnetic. I am more than capable of rebuilds but would like to detrmine where it came from. It is polished metal on one side (same colour as sprocket teeth) and a dull grey unpolished metal on the other and has a very slight cure to it. Thanks for the input, not something I have seen before. Apart from this the engine and components are spotlessly clean.
CraigE, can you see the camshaft lobes from underneath, (never had a look myself).
If you can check the camshaft lobes, get someone to rotate the engine for you, sounds to me like part of your camshaft, or the cam followers, hope I'm wrong, thanks for the feedback, Regards Frank.

[jbell110]

craigE, I had the same problem with my 130 td5. it turned out
to be the timing chain tensioner had let go on one side [they run 2 ]
The metal filings in my motor had done enough damage for a
full rebuild, mine had done 146k. I had it rebuilt but now I'm
pulling it out & putting in a 3.9 & auto as I dont trust it &
diesels cost way to much to fix. I'd rather spend money on
fuel than repairs...
Lots of luck Jeff

[Lucus]

CraigE, can you see the camshaft lobes from underneath, (never had a look myself).
If you can check the camshaft lobes, get someone to rotate the engine for you, sounds to me like part of your camshaft, or the cam followers, hope I'm wrong, thanks for the feedback, Regards Frank.


I reckon you could be on a winner there Tank

[davros]

Is it coming loose? Could it be a bit of this? not sure what they look like on the td5 but I no they come loose!
Dave

[Graeme]

May pull the bearing caps off and check.
I hope you're aware that if the big-end caps are refitted the wrong way and started to be tightened then the conrod must be replaced as it destroys the fracture joint.

[Bigbjorn]

Piece of a crakshaft thrust washer, perhaps?

[RonMcGr]

craigE, I had the same problem with my 130 td5. it turned out
to be the timing chain tensioner had let go on one side [they run 2 ]
The metal filings in my motor had done enough damage for a
full rebuild, mine had done 146k. I had it rebuilt but now I'm
pulling it out & putting in a 3.9 & auto as I dont trust it &
diesels cost way to much to fix. I'd rather spend money on
fuel than repairs...
Lots of luck Jeff

You are a very wise man :)

[rick130]

IIRC JustinC has had a number of customer engines have the hard facing let go on the injector cam lobes.

I think he said he'd only seen '99-'01's do this so far. We were discussing only a couple of weeks back if it was a lube or metalurgy issue, which is what I reckoned it was.

[CraigE]

MM all worth a look.
It does not appear to be from the bottom end, so maybe timing gear or cam. Trying to work out how such a big piece from the cam would get into the sump though.
Photos are crap so wont post them.
Cam will be a drama to check.:(But I suppose will need to check.
Timing gear will be next inspection, but that will take time as is a fairly involved job, unless I can get a decent view from underneath.

[CraigE]

Is it coming loose? Could it be a bit of this? not sure what they look like on the td5 but I no they come loose!
Dave
No, have the sprocket out at the moment.:)

[CraigE]

Well, I am buggered. Its one of those twilight zone things. Is not part of the timing gear assembley or the hard facing on the camshaft (although looking at it I am betting this is what it was or is). When my TA gets home from work I wil hand rotate the motor to ensure it is not any of the cam lobes, but can not see anything that remotely looks fatigued or damaged. All looks remarkabelly in good nick, even excellent nick. I am betting as advised in a rply to this post that a cam may have been replaced under warranty by the previous owner and this bit has been floating around in the sump for some time as it is a 2000 model.
As said have ruled out bottom end bearings as piece is very magnetic and everything there seems good, no marks, rattles or noise. Not thrust washers.
Does not appear to be cam or timing gear, but still have to rotate to be sure. Nothing else it can be except for old rubbish.
Rather spend the time having a look than have it go bang in the bush.
:):):):)
Wasted days I could have been fishing or making chilli sauce though.

[CraigE]

CraigE, can you see the camshaft lobes from underneath, (never had a look myself).
If you can check the camshaft lobes, get someone to rotate the engine for you, sounds to me like part of your camshaft, or the cam followers, hope I'm wrong, thanks for the feedback, Regards Frank.
Frank,
Just ripped off the rocker cover and cam is clearly visible. Can not see any damage but will rotate engine by hand and check when TA gets home. Cam followers were ok. Good thing is basically with a few bits removed you can see most of the engine. A snake camera would be great for checking bores and gudgeon pins. If it is the cam I would be happy to find it before it does fail anyway, easy repair if found before destroying the engine.
Thanks for the advice.
Craig
:):)

[Tank]

Frank,
Just ripped off the rocker cover and cam is clearly visible. Can not see any damage but will rotate engine by hand and check when TA gets home. Cam followers were ok. Good thing is basically with a few bits removed you can see most of the engine. A snake camera would be great for checking bores and gudgeon pins. If it is the cam I would be happy to find it before it does fail anyway, easy repair if found before destroying the engine.
Thanks for the advice.
Craig
:):)
Craig, can you take a pic of the piece of metal and post it, I've never worked on a TD5 motor before, are they OHC, if not do they have the same "roller" cam followers as the 2.25D, if so could be part of the roller, carefully check the rocker arms for any parts broken off, Regards Frank.

[CraigE]

Well I think it is good news. Have inspected everything and just about everywhere it could have come from and nothing worn or broken, no pieces missing. Rotated cam and followers 360 deg plus and no damage. The closest match I can find to it is the cam. I would say the cam has been replaced at some stage and may be residue from that job. Talked to a few mechs who said while it should not happen, debris gets left in engines often and can sit nicely on a lip or ledge for years before coming out the sump. All back together and runing sweet as. Engine internals are in great condition, all still like new with only minimal wearon the cam and followers.
Took some pics but quality was crap so have not posted.
2 days wasted I could have been fishing.;)
Anyway thanks to my TA (Mel), probablly have just saved over a grand in labour for a thorough inspection, may haveto get her a bottle of wine tommorow.
Thanks to all for the advice, most valuable.

[Tank]

Well I think it is good news. Have inspected everything and just about everywhere it could have come from and nothing worn or broken, no pieces missing. Rotated cam and followers 360 deg plus and no damage. The closest match I can find to it is the cam. I would say the cam has been replaced at some stage and may be residue from that job. Talked to a few mechs who said while it should not happen, debris gets left in engines often and can sit nicely on a lip or ledge for years before coming out the sump. All back together and runing sweet as. Engine internals are in great condition, all still like new with only minimal wearon the cam and followers.
Took some pics but quality was crap so have not posted.
2 days wasted I could have been fishing.;)
Anyway thanks to my TA (Mel), probablly have just saved over a grand in labour for a thorough inspection, may haveto get her a bottle of wine tommorow.
Thanks to all for the advice, most valuable.
Great News, thanks for the feedback on the problem, Regards Frank.