Poly bushes don't flex, do they..

[rick130]

here's a couple of quick flex shots after a front end bush change this week.

First up, flogged out slotted bushes. *Note, I'm not knocking these bushes, they are just at the end of their useful life. ;)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

now, the new bushes

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

which look like this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

the 17" spring was just starting to dislocate with each set

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

and the wheels were still on terra firma, with about 1/4"-1/2" droop left in the shock.

Not overly accurate, but it has allayed my fears that I was going to bind up the front end.
What appears to be happening is that with the urethane bushes the radius arm chassis pin is rotating in it's mount, unlike the rubber ones that 'grab', and so rely on distortion of the arm/diff bushes for flex.

Yes, the new bushes are Fulcrum/Super Pro ;)

[Dougal]

The downside is, you'll never have to change them.:)

My front poly bushes have done about 9 years and 100,000km.

[Tusker]

Very interesting. Do the polys misalign ala your 1st pic?

When jacking under the radius arm with the holeys, you can watch the bush compress before lifting starts..

Regards
Max P

[DEFENDERZOOK]

you know you can get poly bushes that are as hard as plastic to ones softer than rubber.......?

they come in different grades......but not for all applications.......

[rangieman]

My understanding of poly bush,s is they transfer more stress to your chassis (chassis cracking can happen) but ive never seen this first hand:eek:
But you own a 130 so it could happen any way:cool:

[RonMcGr]

My understanding of poly bush,s is they transfer more stress to your chassis (chassis cracking can happen) but ive never seen this first hand:eek:
But you own a 130 so it could happen any way:cool:

I'd believe that!
Some idiot fitted my Disco with plastic front shock absorber units. The "Jarring" gave met the Sh*ts.

Yesterday I bought a complete set of rubber ones from MR Auto. Oh boy, what a difference :D. No more jarring over bumps in the road. The Disco is now almost as smooth as the Jaguars, well...... better than it was :)

[discowhite]

here's a couple of quick flex shots after a front end bush change this week.

First up, flogged out slotted bushes. *Note, I'm not knocking these bushes, they are just at the end of their useful life. ;)

http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/Landyflex016-copy-copy-copy.jpg

http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/IMGA0278-copy.jpg

now, the new bushes

http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/IMGA0299-copy.jpg

which look like this

http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/IMGA0287-copy.jpg
http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/IMGA0288-copy.jpg
http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/IMGA0290-copy.jpg
http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/IMGA0291-copy.jpg

the 17" spring was just starting to dislocate with each set

http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/IMGA0293-copy.jpg

and the wheels were still on terra firma, with about 1/4"-1/2" droop left in the shock.

Not overly accurate, but it has allayed my fears that I was going to bind up the front end.
What appears to be happening is that with the urethane bushes the radius arm chassis pin is rotating in it's mount, unlike the rubber ones that 'grab', and so rely on distortion of the arm/diff bushes for flex.

Yes, the new bushes are Fulcrum/Super Pro ;)

your preaching to the converted here! well me anyway:cool:
been saying they flex for a while now.
full super pro bushes, cept the shock's they are still rubber.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/01/88.jpg

cheers phil

[Slunnie]

You'll no doubt find that it has to do with the grade of poly that they used, rather than it actually being poly the material. I suspect that most street vehicles that have poly run a hard grade for steering precision, and that same grade used in high articulation 4WD's is what has given it a bad name amongst us. If the Superpro is flexing like a slotted bush, then it is going to be softer than rubber again.

[rick130]

Very interesting. Do the polys misalign ala your 1st pic?

<snip>

Regards
Max P


not really, I think I have a pic somewhere.....

[rick130]

you know you can get poly bushes that are as hard as plastic to ones softer than rubber.......?

they come in different grades......but not for all applications.......

I've been saying that on this very forum (and a heap of others) for quite a few years now ;)

[rick130]

My understanding of poly bush,s is they transfer more stress to your chassis (chassis cracking can happen) but ive never seen this first hand:eek:
But you own a 130 so it could happen any way:cool:

only if the durometer of the bush is greater than an OE rubber one.
The design of the bush has a lot to do with it too. If you look at the photos check out the circumferential groove in one of them. That one goes on the back side of the radius arm/chassis mount. It allows more flex in the bush.
The lower rear trailing arm/chassis mount bush from Super Pro also has a similar design on both sides of the mount, allowing more flex and less stress on the chassis mount than an OE rubber one.

[lokka]

Gday rick

Mate im in the same process those bushes look like supa pros am i right if so were bouts did ya get em as this looks like what i should use all round as my rear links at the diff dont last long as the std rubber jobbies flog out quick also my swaybar bushes are a 12 monthly change over so might be beta doin the whole truck in polly like disco white has done and just keep the rubber in the shocks which im about to change anyways :D:D:D:D:D

[Slunnie]

I saw them up at Supercheap this afternoon. No doubt they'll be able to get in the correct ones. I bought my shock ones from 4WD1 in Castle Hill - they post.

[lokka]

I saw them up at Supercheap this afternoon. No doubt they'll be able to get in the correct ones. I bought my shock ones from 4WD1 in Castle Hill - they post.


Id rather keep rubber on my shocks as i hate a bumpy ride i love the spongy rangie feel :D:D:D

[rick130]

I buy mine through Bursons.

[dullbird]

in the uk it was the red poly bushes that where renowned for cracking the chassi as they were to heavy duty and had no give in them the blues where the recomended for off road as they gave and allowed for flex......

[lokka]

I buy mine through Bursons.

Bursons there at gateshead here in newcastle am i right :D:D:D

[loanrangie]

in the uk it was the red poly bushes that where renowned for cracking the chassi as they were to heavy duty and had no give in them the blues where the recomended for off road as they gave and allowed for flex......


I have used the red type years ago and never agian but then there was literally only 1 or 2 brands to choose from. Looks like the softer type may actually work without destroying the ride or your suspension components.
After i decided to the poly's from my rangie it was an oxy and grinder job to actually get the f$ckers out.

[rick130]

in the uk it was the red poly bushes that where renowned for cracking the chassi as they were to heavy duty and had no give in them the blues where the recomended for off road as they gave and allowed for flex......

colour means nothing, it just depends on what colour they tip into the mix when they mould them. ;)

[lokka]

I have used the red type years ago and never agian but then there was literally only 1 or 2 brands to choose from. Looks like the softer type may actually work without destroying the ride or your suspension components.
After i decided to the poly's from my rangie it was an oxy and grinder job to actually get the f$ckers out.


Yep been there done that there a bastard to get back out :D:D:D:D

Back in the late 80's dad and i fitted polly to his stage 1 one of his mates had turned up some polly bushes from yellow polly and it was friggin hard as we had to make up a special puller to fit them and do then in 2 bits one each side and those f@rkers are still in there and just as good as the day they were fitted these are the best shackel pin bushes ive ever seen :D:D:D:D

[rick130]

Bursons there at gateshead here in newcastle am i right :D:D:D

dunno, I get all my stuff through Tamworth, it's a hell of a lot closer than Newy, and I get couriers out of there every day. Deliveries from Newcastle take two days as it has to go to Tamworth first before coming back down into the valley... :rolleyes:

[lokka]

dunno, I get all my stuff through Tamworth, it's a hell of a lot closer than Newy, and I get couriers out of there every day. Deliveries from Newcastle take two days as it has to go to Tamworth first before coming back down into the valley... :rolleyes:

Fairy nuff il have to do acserch tomoro while im in town and see who can supply them ...

What sorta $ did you pay for the front bushes just the control arm bushes will do so i have a good idea on whats a fair price :D:D:D

[dullbird]

colour means nothing, it just depends on what colour they tip into the mix when they mould them. ;)

i'm actually refering to the poly brand.......red were hard and blue were soft

[loanrangie]

i'm actually refering to the poly brand

Yes, in the UK the colour refers to the compound, but here i have seen red /yellow and now blue.

[Dougal]

colour means nothing, it just depends on what colour they tip into the mix when they mould them. ;)

True that they could make them any colour they want. But most polyurethane products seem to follow the same colour order for increasing hardness.
My guess is that's what most of the chemical suppliers dictate.

[dullbird]

Yes, in the UK the colour refers to the compound, but here i have seen red /yellow and now blue.

yes they have yellow in the uk now to and orange and it probably is now more of a case of what colour goes in the mix.........

i suppose what i'm trying to say was yes they did crack chassis but it was the harder type which at the time in the uk was the poly brand red if you wanted polys you went blue

but things have changed and moved on now....... i rekon if you did a poll in the uk you would probably be hard pushed to find people that dont use poly bushes

[PAT303]

Come on Rick,everyone bustin' to know how much. Pat

[rick130]

OK, recommended list is

SPF 0206K $50.90 + GST
SPF 0194K $25.20 + (panhard rod bushes)
SPF 0195K $92.00 +

obviously trade is quite a bit better than that. ;)

[HAK]

Im in the process of buying them spoke to suspension wholesalers at Penrith he was suppose to get back to me he didnt I wanted to know was there custer correction for the rear ? and yeah what are they worth Im after SPF2560XK 3 degree correction

[rick130]

there are castor correction for the front as well as a different front radius arm to chassis bush that spaces the LHS of the axle forward slightly to eliminate road camber induced pulling to the left.

[HAK]

mmmmmm intresting, time for more research, are they hard to install?

[rick130]

mmmmmm intresting, time for more research, are they hard to install?


hang on ! you have a D2, don't you ? If so, none of what I've typed above applies, the suspension and bushes are all different, sorry.

[Reads90]

you know you can get poly bushes that are as hard as plastic to ones softer than rubber.......?

they come in different grades......but not for all applications.......


Blue are the best ones
I have used them for years and will continue to do so. And i have kicked the crap out of many sets and tested them to the limit on serveral trucks (even my winch challenge truck)
Also easy to change if you need to , no need for a press

Ali

[Mudhog1974classic]

Was playing around with my truck last weekend and decided to check out my front wheel travel. Out came the Hi lift jack. With the wheel in the air,this gave me 250mm gap from the bottom edge of my flares to the top of the tyre.(32in Simex)

6187 6188

So I then decided to see how much more travel was possible. I undone the top nut on the front shock and then jacked up the truck again.
This time with the wheel in the air the gap was 325mm measured in the same place.

6189 6190

Will need to look at longer shocks to maximize this!

The things we do!!!

[Slunnie]

If you undo the shock on the other side you could probably keep jacking still. :p

Hmmm, there is a difference between suspension travel and articulation, and then by using the highlift you unload the whole front axle which produces an unrealistic situation that I wouldn't necessarily take shock measurements from. I tend to setup the shocks so when they're full open they match the spring when it is almost lose and still retained then bumpstops to suit the shock closed length - but thats a whole new thread. ;)

[Slunnie]

mmmmmm intresting, time for more research, are they hard to install?
Not hard, just takes time.

[procrastination inc]

I put super pro's in my D1.

The hardest bit is getting the factory bushes out.

pretty happy with the result.

steers better on the highway. I think smaller road irregularities are more noticeable through the seat of the pants, but I did replace the shocks with Konis and put slightly stiffer springs in all at the same time.

[rick130]

Blue are the best ones
<snip>Ali

FFS, colour means absolutely nothing ! Manufacturer, design and durometer (hardness) count, not the bloody colour.
I have Super Pro ones in a few different colours in a few different spots in the beast, although all the ones that came for the front end happened to be blue, they can mould the things any colour in the rainbow.

IIRC, the ones that are in the chassis end of the A frame are purple ??

The first set of Super Pro's I fitted are the lower rear trailing arm to chassis bush, and I would never use anything else on a stockish RRC style rear end. They have been there for well over 100,000km and are a superior design to OE, allowing more articulation with less bump steer.SP

[Reads90]

FFS, colour means absolutely nothing ! Manufacturer, design and durometer (hardness) count, not the bloody colour.


Umm your wrong they do with the ones i use , And i have always used Polybush ones
red hard (classic)
Blue same as the Land Rover gen bushes
Polybush - Enhance the Dynamic Performance of Your Defender 2002 (http://www.polybush.co.uk/defender.html)

Ali

[Grimace]

that is correct, they don't flex. :)

question answered.

[rick130]

that is correct, they don't flex. :)

question answered.


thanks for your considered and eloquent response, Anthony :lol2:

[rick130]

Umm your wrong they do with the ones i use , And i have always used Polybush ones
red hard (classic)
Blue same as the Land Rover gen bushes
Polybush - Enhance the Dynamic Performance of Your Defender 2002 (http://www.polybush.co.uk/defender.html)

Ali

Ali, that's only one manufacturer.

Saying 'Blue poly is best' is akin to saying 'red shockies are best' ;)

[PAT303]

Red shockies are the best.Koni's.Rick what make of ball joint do you use in the ''A'' frame.Mine is standard and is failing after two years. Pat

[rick130]

Red shockies are the best.Koni's.Rick what make of ball joint do you use in the ''A'' frame.Mine is standard and is failing after two years. Pat

Koni make Yellow ones, too, Pat ;)

Still the OE ball joint, 233,000km young.

Should've bought a Maxi one as a spare before Mal closed. Just too damn busy through December is my excuse.

[rick130]

here's what the slotted bushes looked like

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

I was always reluctant to use the poly ones in the front end, thinking I'd lose articulation, but knowing I had to change the slotted ones I PM'd Tombraider who uses the Super Pro ones in his front end after using the slotted ones. Discowhite uses the SP one's too.

Surprised and happy.

[Tusker]

It would be interesting to do some back to back testing with the same car, with bushes in good nick. Perhaps with more controlled conditions than a mound of earth though!:huh:

How long were you guys getting out of your slotteds? I'm changing them annually.

Regards
Max P

[Lucus]

It would be interesting to do some back to back testing with the same car, with bushes in good nick. Perhaps with more controlled conditions than a mound of earth though!:huh:

How long were you guys getting out of your slotteds? I'm changing them annually.

Regards
Max P

I plan to do this in the next couple of months. I have a set of Deflex bushes from the UK. They are the same durometer as factory rubber. Im hoping to borrow a ramp and test before with and with out sway bars and after with and without sway bars.

Luke

[rrturboD]

I've been supplying (and sometimes) installing, Noltec bushes for a couple of years. This was based on personal experience with a number of different bush manufacturers in my two RRC. The Noltec bushes are soft, and seem to have the same or very similar hardness (durometer) to rubber, and certainly seem to outlast rubber. The technical stuff is at noltecsuspension.com
Apart from choosing them as a supplier I have no other affiliation with the company! I can get them for you if you want them too.

[HAK]

I've been supplying (and sometimes) installing, Noltec bushes for a couple of years. This was based on personal experience with a number of different bush manufacturers in my two RRC. The Noltec bushes are soft, and seem to have the same or very similar hardness (durometer) to rubber, and certainly seem to outlast rubber. The technical stuff is at noltecsuspension.com
Apart from choosing them as a supplier I have no other affiliation with the company! I can get them for you if you want them too.

How much for set of D2 with 3 degree custer correction ?

[HAK]

Priced the SP ones today there about $200 for the 3 degree caster correction set and there blue :p green would have been better :p:p

[Grimace]

here's what the slotted bushes looked like

http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/IMGA0279-copy.jpg

http://usera.imagecave.com/tdi-rick/IMGA0282-copy.jpg

I was always reluctant to use the poly ones in the front end, thinking I'd lose articulation, but knowing I had to change the slotted ones I PM'd Tombraider who uses the Super Pro ones in his front end after using the slotted ones. Discowhite uses the SP one's too.

Surprised and happy.

Mate they still have plenty left in em :D
Mine fell out into three bits (metal sleeve was detached) when removed. :eek:

[rick130]

Mate they still have plenty left in em :D
Mine fell out into three bits (metal sleeve was detached) when removed. :eek:

Mate, the other side did just that !

I got sick of the pogo when stopping, and the flop when turning.
It's just like having a dead low speed circuit in the front shocks, particularly when buggered.


How long were you guys getting out of your slotteds? I'm changing them annually.

Max, these have been there about 18 months, but they should have been swapped out before summer. The steering's been pretty nervous for a fair while now.

[Reads90]

Ali, that's only one manufacturer.

Saying 'Blue poly is best' is akin to saying 'red shockies are best' ;)

Well blue ones are best. They match the colour of the car :D:D

[lokka]

OK, recommended list is

SPF 0206K $50.90 + GST
SPF 0194K $25.20 + (panhard rod bushes)
SPF 0195K $92.00 +

obviously trade is quite a bit better than that. ;)

heres some of the prices i was quoted today from bursons the part no are a little different for the rangie but would be the same parts id say

SPF 0126k front lower 4 bushes $87.10
SPF 0127k front uper 4 bushes $45.80
SPF 2156k panhard 2 bushes $27.60

These prices include GST and this is for the front of a rangie classic im going to give them a go up front and see how the go as my std bushes are well and truly roo ted and im geting sick of the wander and vagueness of the steering

[rangieman]

What a can of worms , where is rovercares popcorn smiley:lol2::tease::D

[rrturboD]

Spoke with Noltec (blue), they only do 'standard size' bushes etc, no caster correction bushes. Almost all the bushes are two piece with a central crush tube, so I cannot see how a caster correction would hold etc. I use the rubber units from LRA if front caster correction required and we do not want to slot the hubs.

[Utemad]

So based on the reccomendations in this thread and the fact I don't have a press or have the room to put it, I'm going to order some SuperPro bushes from SuperCheap tomorrow.

As for fitting them where should I put the grease?

On the outside of the bush?
On the inside of the bush?
On the inside of the crush tube?

Also is there any sort of special grease to use?
I remember the ARB greasable shackles I had in my Rodeo (which improved the ride immensely) said to use molybdenum.

Thanks.

[procrastination inc]

SP bushes come with a sachet of grease and application instructions with each set .

Utemad, you have a PM

[Slunnie]

You shouldn't need to grease the radius arm bushes.

[Utemad]

Thanks guys.

I've already got the chassis bushes for both the radius and trailing arms in rubber from a while ago. So just the diff ends and the panhard rod that I'll get poly for.

Do they keep this stuff in stock at the Fulrum Head Office? Guess I'll find out tomorrow. Have tomorrow off so would be good to get a start.

Need front shock bushes too but sounds like they are best had in rubber.

[rick130]

You shouldn't need to grease the radius arm bushes.

I greased every metal to poly surface :D
Used a calcium sulfonate marine grease to resist washout and corrosion rather than the SP stuff (which could be really good stuff but :confused:)

I think the flex in the front is now attributable to the pin end of the radius arms rotating in their mounts relative to the chassis rather than have the diff end deform the bush relative to the axle tubes (which they can't now)
This is why I used copious amounts of grease when assembling.
It was obvious that the OE rubber bushes (which were only 18 months old) were 'welded' to the pin and chassis 'cups', and I used a rubber grease when assembling.

[Bush65]

... They have been there for well over 100,000km and are a superior design to OE, allowing more articulation with less bump steer.SP
From my understanding of link geometry, I don't see how the material of the trailing arm bushes would reduce bump steer with increased articulation.

[rick130]

From my understanding of link geometry, I don't see how the material of the trailing arm bushes would reduce bump steer with increased articulation.

the OE rubber bushes had taken a set/compressed allowing play between the chassis plate and bush. I was getting a fair bit of rear steer.
I have no idea what the durometer is comparing one to the other, but tahe SP ones have a reasonably deep circumferential groove which allows the bush to distort up and down and the roll/bump/brake rear steer was dramatically reduced.
They also use heavier gauge steel plates compared to the OE ones.

[jik22]

in the uk it was the red poly bushes that where renowned for cracking the chassi as they were to heavy duty and had no give in them the blues where the recomended for off road as they gave and allowed for flex......

I think the blue ones are Britpart, whereas the orange and yellow are Deflex with one colour being harder than the other. Was going to look at all three types and then buy the set closest to standard rubber at Paddocks while in the UK last week, but bloody traffic on the M1 on my only spare day put a stop to that. :mad:

Had to make do with spending half as much at MM4x4 instead, as they were open later but didn't have as much of the stuff on my list. :(

[Utemad]

I picked up my bushes today and I thought I'd do the panhard rod this afternoon.
I managed to get one of the rubber bushes out easy enough but what is the trick to getting the poly bush in?

It looks like it should go in easy enough but since the sides are flat and not slightly angled the bush just distorts. One side will slip in but not the other so just distorts and won't go in. I can certainly vouch for the softness of the bush not hard poly at all!

Any help from those that have done this already?

[agrojnr]

Dishwashing liquid I used to use that all the time




These are the set I will be getting from paddocks when I get to the UK
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

They are the Deflex brand about $90 for the set


Adam

[lokka]

Dishwashing liquid I used to use that all the time




These are the set I will be getting from paddocks when I get to the UK
http://www.paddockspares.com/pp/SHOP_BY_BRAND_A-H/Deflex/images/sdlr02pwa-95.jpg

They are the Deflex brand about $90 for the set


Adam
$90dollars AU or do u mean $90pound :D:D:D

[Lucus]

I have the same bushes, they where aprox $180 a set (including swaybar bushes) landed in perth. Paddock are crap to deal with but there prices are good. A week to reply to an email is std. Im happy with the quality and softness of the bushes....just havent got around to fitting them yet........:angel:

[agrojnr]

Paddocks price is 48.35 pounds so around $90

I have had no troble in dealing with paddocks but then again I have always rang them when placing an order


Adam

[Utemad]

I have the same bushes, they where aprox $180 a set (including swaybar bushes) landed in perth. Paddock are crap to deal with but there prices are good. A week to reply to an email is std. Im happy with the quality and softness of the bushes....just havent got around to fitting them yet........:angel:

I looked at those but chose the local ones for ease of use. Cost a bit more though. The Paddocks are a two peice design whereas the SuperPro ones are one peice (both with seperate crush tubes). Don't know which is better for what purpose.

I've ordered once from Paddocks and had no trouble with them but they can be a little slow on the email and their website sucks unless you search for part numbers then it is not too bad.

I'll try a little dishwashing liquid just to get it started. It is like pushing a square piece of jelly into a round hole at the moment. At this rate I'll be driving the Toyota to work :(

[Slunnie]

I also use dishwashing liquid. Works well.

[Utemad]

The tiniest bit of dishwashing liquid did it :)
I'd been using the supplied grease but I guess the DL is much more slippery. Used the grease once I got it started though of course.

[stock]

[QUOTE=rick130;672148

Yes, the new bushes are Fulcrum/Super Pro ;)[/QUOTE]

Look very much like Bermach poly kit,any one used the deflex split bush kit???????

[Dougal]

Paddocks price is 48.35 pounds so around $90

I have had no troble in dealing with paddocks but then again I have always rang them when placing an order


Adam

I've always had excellent service from Paddocks. But damn is airfreight getting expensive.:(

[djam1]

Off subject I know but I once worked for Toyota and recall a Land Cruiser that came across the Tanami with these aftermarket bushes, it cracked the diff housing and at the time the engineers agreed that the reason was the bushes and thier inability to flex.

[agrojnr]

I've always had excellent service from Paddocks. But damn is airfreight getting expensive.:(

I don't have to worry about freight because I land there in April :D:D

So I will order some bits and get them delivered to the in-laws place


Adam

[RobHay]

I'd believe that!
Some idiot fitted my Disco with plastic front shock absorber units. The "Jarring" gave met the Sh*ts.

Yesterday I bought a complete set of rubber ones from MR Auto. Oh boy, what a difference :D. No more jarring over bumps in the road. The Disco is now almost as smooth as the Jaguars, well...... better than it was :)


That would not be a tiny weeny small untruth there......would it?;):D

[abaddonxi]

I don't have to worry about freight because I land there in April :D:D

So I will order some bits and get them delivered to the in-laws place


Adam

Then you have to pay VAT, don't you?

Cheers
Simon

[jik22]

I don't have to worry about freight because I land there in April :D:D

So I will order some bits and get them delivered to the in-laws place


Adam

Actually, if you're ordering a fair few bits, and will be anywhere near Paddocks, go and buy them in person.

That way, you can get a VAT reclaim form which you take to the counter at Heathrow (With your bag with the bits in, so don't check your luggage first!!) when you leave, and they'll process it and send it back to Paddocks - then, a few weeks later, you get the VAT refunded to your credit card.

[agrojnr]

Like Jeff said (thats what I did last time)

Adam

[isuzurover]

Thanks for posting this Rick. I have always heard bad things about poly bushes in coillers, but have been happily running them in my IIA for about 10 years (some are now due for replacement).

May have to consider them for the 110 now as well.

As you can see, I also have a little bit of wheel travel ;)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[abaddonxi]

Actually, if you're ordering a fair few bits, and will be anywhere near Paddocks, go and buy them in person.

That way, you can get a VAT reclaim form which you take to the counter at Heathrow (With you bag with the bits in, so don't check your luggage first!!)when you leave, and they'll process it and send it back to Paddocks - then, a few weeks later, you get the VAT refunded to your credit card.

Thanks, cleared that one up.;)

Cheers
Simon

[Reads90]

I don't have to worry about freight because I land there in April :D:D

So I will order some bits and get them delivered to the in-laws place


Adam


Same here , going back for a couple of weeks to see my mates and do the Gaydon 60th trip from Lode lane to Gaydon. Got a car in the line :):)

[MLD]

Rick and to the others that use Poly style bushes. What sort of longevity did you get from the Poly style bush.

I recently bolted on long travel suspension and after 4 x 4wd days i have flogged out the rubber bushes (that were replaced with new bushes when the suspension was bolted on) on my radius arms at both the chassis and axle ends. It will be an expensive exercise to replace bushes every 2 months at this rate.

MLD

[uninformed]

Rick and to the others that use Poly style bushes. What sort of longevity did you get from the Poly style bush.

I recently bolted on long travel suspension and after 4 x 4wd days i have flogged out the rubber bushes (that were replaced with new bushes when the suspension was bolted on) on my radius arms at both the chassis and axle ends. It will be an expensive exercise to replace bushes every 2 months at this rate.

MLD

Were the rubber replacement "Genuine" Land Rover?

either way, I think even those have slipped quality somewhat. Im running SP at the chassis end of TA/RA and A frame, rubber at axle end of TA/RA and Panhard. So far so good, id say at least 50k km.

[PhilipA]

I don't know how i missed this thread first time around.
I tried poly bushes in the Panhard rod of my RRC about 20 years ago.
They wore about 1MM on the centre tube in one trip to the Simpson.

When you think about it the bush must wear quickly if you do any sand/mud running at all as they rotate on the centre steel sleeve continuously. The sand gets in regardless of how much you grease and its bye bye bush quickly.
The rubber bushes work on shear (metalistic) within the rubber with the outer glued to the outer tube of the bush and the inner glued to the inner tube. That is why the bolts come loose on the tubes, as if they are not tight enough the tubes start to move. However there is no rubbing/pivoting movement.

However if you fit long travel shocks , the distance the rubber bush has to move in shear may be more than its limit and it may tear so maybe that is why they don't last long .

Aside from the ride harshness issue , you may get the same result by simply leaving the centre bolt of the rubber bush a little loose and grease up the bolt so that the rubber bush doesn't get overstressed. However this will wear out the mount quickly. You could of course fit some washers at the ends of the inner tube , so that they can wear.

I just posted this so that all can understand how each type of bush works . IMHO Poly bushes are no good for touring in the outback , but may be good for weekend warriors, but maybe the same articulation result can be obtained by just a simple loosening of the centre bolts.
Regards Philip A

[Tombie]

Your 1 trip 20 yrs ago is grounds for that entire post?

Polyurethane compounds have come a long way since then, combined with designs which provide some sealing between the outer edge of the bush and the mount to reduce contaminate ingress.

I've fitted Super pro bushes to many vehicles and driven them in mud, sand, water and dust without any ill effects over thousands of kilometers, as have many others...

Yes, the bush and tube behave as described but for the tube to spin you didn't have it torqued properly...

[Bush65]

Philip, IMHO you have vastly oversimplified what goes on and left out more important stuff that happens during articulation and more so with modified suspension travel.

Also Land Rover changed the design of the bushes for the axle end of the radius arms, that may improve performance on the highway but is detrimental off road.

And what Serg said about quality these days is supported by anecdotal evidence - genuine is better than aftermarket, but still not as good as the early genuine stuff.

[uninformed]

Your 1 trip 20 yrs ago is grounds for that entire post?

Polyurethane compounds have come a long way since then, combined with designs which provide some sealing between the outer edge of the bush and the mount to reduce contaminate ingress.

I've fitted Super pro bushes to many vehicles and driven them in mud, sand, water and dust without any ill effects over thousands of kilometers, as have many others...

Yes, the bush and tube behave as described but for the tube to spin you didn't have it torqued properly...

I thought you left :D

anyway, it seems the only guys knocking "SuperPro" bushes are those that either ran or knew someone that ran the old "PolyBush" from 20-30 years ago so tar everything with the same brush…..kinda like saying all vehicle axle shafts are crap because a series Land Rover used them as consumables.

[PhilipA]

Yes, the bush and tube behave as described but for the tube to spin you
didn't have it torqued properly...


No I didn't say that.
All Polybushes AFAIK should have the centre tube tightened so that it doesn't spin. the Polybush MUST spin on the centre shaft to work. Movement causes wear unless say the bush has a brass insert which AFAIK none have.
I also have a modern polyblock towing coupling on my camper . They still wear.Maybe over a longer period than years ago but my coupling is now worn out after about 50KK use.

If you are talking the OEM rubber bushes , then the reality is that many spin because they are not tight enough, but of course they should not.

There should therefore be no rubbing/ spinning movement so no wear UNLESS The shear limit of the bush is reached.

That is why AFAIK all 4WD manufacturers use metallistic rubber bushes.

Could you please advise of any 4WD manufacturers that you know who use Poly bushes as OEM? If they perform better than metallistic in the long term, I would expect a wholesale adoption especially seeing they are much cheaper to produce.

Regards Philip A

[rick130]

Yep, everything OEM is better than what's available aftermarket......


Over 220,000km now and the Super Pro trailing arm bushes are still functioning perfectly.

Philip, I always considered PU bushes a poor choice in a rotating bush, but the best candidate in a compression type bush (eg. the chassis end of radius arms) but in practice I've found the Super Pro versions work really in a rotating bush too.
I've had Super Pro bushes fitted at the chassis end of the A frame for about 8 years now (and somewhere between 160-180,000km on them) and they are still fine, the OE bushes had play between the crush tube and bolt leading to clunking and rear steer, the rubber to steel bond was still fine.

[PhilipA]

Over 220,000km now and the Super Pro trailing arm bushes are still

functioning perfectly.

I might point out that the aftermarket concave rubber trailing arm bushes on my RRC were still going strong at about 180KK of touring towing etc on all the worst roads around.

I should qualify that I am really talking about rotating bushes such as Panhard Rod, rear trailing arm to axle, A frame to chassis. Look the reason for this post was not to rubbish Poly bushes but to inform maybe newer members of the theory behind both types of bushes.

If you can get poly bushes soft enough with the same durometer reading or better than Metallistic for bushes that do not move ( much) they should be good. However except for the few experiences on here and in your case on a 130 , every review I have seen with say Range Rovers, Discos etc have said they are unbearably harsh. Are the manufacturers so dumb that they keep on making stuff that is not what the market wants or is there a limitation to the technology?

They still seem to transmit more shock when used in say Shock bushes which are static. As a buyer you don't know what durometer reading they have and in my experience they are sometimes used to hide mistakes.

I bought a set of TJM shocks once and the rubber bushes flogged out in 1000k. They then sent me poly bushes which lasted but were unbearably harsh. The reason was that the shocks were just too stiffly valved for pin bushes which they covered with poly bushes.

I think I personally will stick with Metallistic but it is up to the individual what they want.
BTW , how often do the users of poly bushes pull them out and regrease them. It should be pretty often. I always thought that they would be OK even in twisting use if drilled bolts with grease nipples were available in the correct size so that you could regrease them every 2-5KK or so. Thats what they have for Toyotas and others with leaf spring shackles and IMHO would make them more acceptable. It also stops the squeaks.
Regards Philip A

[isuzurover]

...However except for the few experiences on here and in your case on a 130 , every review I have seen with say Range Rovers, Discos etc have said they are unbearably harsh. ...

I don't know which reviews you are reading? Everyone on here (>50 people (probably closer to 200 people)) who has tried superpro has never gone back to rubber. They are nothing like the old fashioned hard piles of coloured plastic the UK mags sell.

Here are my OE radius arm bushes after 2000 km (Perth to Well 32 on the CSR).

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/CanningTrip2010373.jpg
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/CanningTrip2010373.jpg

OE Trailing arm bushes at the end of the trip (CSR, GRR, etc, etc..):
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/12/256.jpg
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/Canning_Stock_Route_2010/CanningTrip2010727.jpg

The SuperPro bush which replaced the rubber crap
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/12/257.jpg
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/Canning_Stock_Route_2010/CanningTrip2010724.jpg

The SuperPro bushes have been fitted for 3 years of mainly offroad touring now.

[Bush65]

IMHO Phillip is correct for joints that deform in rotation (torsional shear) such as for example the axle end of rear lower trailing arms.

With respect to those that crush such as chassis end of rear lower trailing arms or front radius arms of Defender RRC and Disco I, the design is the problem. I don't see the poly material being the better choice of material compared with decent (not cheap) rubber.

Where the superpro has the advantage is their design is better.

Land Rover went backwards with some of their design and constrained the rubber further than they were earlier. For example going to wider triple shell radius arm bushes and with the rear shockie bushes.

They would do well to copy what Nissan have done for GU radius arms or even those for 105 series Landcruisers (not as good as GU but much better than Land Rover. Nissan trailing arm bushes are better than Land Rover as well.

Rubber is virtually incompressible material, and the elastomers such as polyurethane are similarly bad. It deforms readily if there is space for the material to deform into, but take away the space and confine it is asking for trouble.

Rubber behaves as a brittle material under 3 dimensional stress, and this can occur where it is bonded to the steel components or where it is trapped such as the parts of Isuzurover's radius arm bushes. Bonding rubber to steel is an appropriate procedure, but provision has to be made for deformation, and adding the 3rd bonded shell to radius arm bushes not the way to go :mad:

Give me a properly designed bush made with decent rubber please.

[isuzurover]

IMHO Phillip is correct for joints that deform in rotation (torsional shear) such as for example the axle end of rear lower trailing arms.

With respect to those that crush such as chassis end of rear lower trailing arms or front radius arms of Defender RRC and Disco I, the design is the problem. I don't see the poly material being the better choice of material compared with decent (not cheap) rubber.

Where the superpro has the advantage is their design is better.

Land Rover went backwards with some of their design and constrained the rubber further than they were earlier. For example going to wider triple shell radius arm bushes and with the rear shockie bushes.

They would do well to copy what Nissan have done for GU radius arms or even those for 105 series Landcruisers (not as good as GU but much better than Land Rover. Nissan trailing arm bushes are better than Land Rover as well.

Rubber is virtually incompressible material, and the elastomers such as polyurethane are similarly bad. It deforms readily if there is space for the material to deform into, but take away the space and confine it is asking for trouble.

Rubber behaves as a brittle material under 3 dimensional stress, and this can occur where it is bonded to the steel components or where it is trapped such as the parts of Isuzurover's radius arm bushes. Bonding rubber to steel is an appropriate procedure, but provision has to be made for deformation, and adding the 3rd bonded shell to radius arm bushes not the way to go :mad:

Give me a properly designed bush made with decent rubber please.

Exactly. The problem in recent years is mainly the quality of the bushes. On the canning I put my old radius arm bushes back in, that were fitted for at least 10 years and 150k km!!! They lasted the rest of the trip without a problem. So as well as the poor design, the quality of the rubber and the quality of the bonding to the steel seems to have severely deteriorated.

[inside]

I have Superpro bushes. This the flex in a stock 110 with stock length shocks and standard springs. I have been to the desert and back with the Superpro and no real wear to be seen.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/12/251.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/12/252.jpg

[Tote]

Ressurecting an old thread... Sparesbox have 25% of Superpro products for the next few days

Regards,
Tote

[350RRC]

I got a full set for my POS about 15 years ago from Paddocks. Was ridiculously cheap even with freight.

That may have changed with covid affecting freight charges so 25% off is a great deal.

All bushes are still fine. Front diff is now County with maxi axles, etc and I have new SP bushes for the diff housing to replace some other brand of poly that are caster correction.
My pet hate.

DL

[Tote]

One of the rear chassis bushes on the 130 is pretty loose after 100,000KM. I suspect this may be due to the nut not being tight enough from the factory and causing it to move around, I had to tighten it up on a trip last week as it was getting noisy so its time to do both rear ones. Price from sparesbox was about $150 for the kit.

Regards,
Tote

[350RRC]

One of the rear chassis bushes on the 130 is pretty loose after 100,000KM. I suspect this may be due to the nut not being tight enough from the factory and causing it to move around, I had to tighten it up on a trip last week as it was getting noisy so its time to do both rear ones. Price from sparesbox was about $150 for the kit.

Regards,
Tote

Not sure which kit suits,but a whole kit (i.e. all bushes) is less than $400 from Paddocks atm.

Super Pro Bush Kits for Land Rover Defender - Paddock Spares (https://au.paddockspares.com/off-road/suspension/superpro-bush-kits/defender.html)