Lpg diesel fumigation

[locorr]

Maybe a crazy idea but is it possible to use a lpg fumigator off a car for diesel fumigation. Not sure if there is enough adjustment on them to get the ratio low enough. I've read that 15 to 20% is used. I have an old 3.5 rangie on gas and a disco 300tdi. I also have a navara tdi 2.7L that I'll use for experiments, don't want to hurt the disco. I'm also in the process of building my first hydrogen from water splitter. Will attempt to use hydrogen as a catylist for the diesel.

[Dougal]

You're wasting your time with the hydrogen. Only big-oil conspiracy types believe that works.

LPG works but will make life very hard on your engine. Be careful.

[mcrover]

Ive never heard of the Hydrogen vapour inj and I dont think you will be able to meter the LPG with a petrol engine based converter due to the massive vacuum that diesels produce.

As far as doing it yourself, IT IS ILLEGAL AND DANGEROUS and unless you are a registered gas fitter then you shouldnt touch it.

As far as being hard on the engine, Im sure it wouldnt like it but apparently the 300TDI's take it pretty well and you get reasonable gains from it and as long as you keep the mix low I dont think you will do too much damage as our Diesel over here is such poor quality that anyhthing to improove it's burn would probably make the engine happier.

[p38arover]

Search is your friend. Search on LPG fumigation and you'll find myriad posts.

See also Dieselgas Technologies - LPG injection for diesel engines... (http://www.dieselgas.com.au)

[loanrangie]

I thought that diesels produce less vacuum ? i'd give it a go, just use a much smaller gas system than the equivalent capacity petrol motor would use- i wouldnt wory about killing the nissan, 1 less ! find as much info as possible about the systems before you try anything.

[87County]

Maybe a crazy idea but is it possible to use a lpg fumigator off a car for diesel fumigation. Not sure if there is enough adjustment on them to get the ratio low enough. I've read that 15 to 20% is used. I have an old 3.5 rangie on gas and a disco 300tdi. I also have a navara tdi 2.7L that I'll use for experiments, don't want to hurt the disco. I'm also in the process of building my first hydrogen from water splitter. Will attempt to use hydrogen as a catylist for the diesel.


have you had a look at relevent websites? (eg dieselgas)

my son's 110 has their fitting installed and it is very good, both on increased power & economy

my understanding is that the lpg injection is controlled by a chip, and I am wondering how you will meter the lpg supplement to accord with throttle/power settings

[sclarke]

Ive never heard of the Hydrogen vapour inj and I dont think you will be able to meter the LPG with a petrol engine based converter due to the massive vacuum that diesels produce.

As far as doing it yourself, IT IS ILLEGAL AND DANGEROUS and unless you are a registered gas fitter then you shouldnt touch it.

As far as being hard on the engine, Im sure it wouldnt like it but apparently the 300TDI's take it pretty well and you get reasonable gains from it and as long as you keep the mix low I dont think you will do too much damage as our Diesel over here is such poor quality that anyhthing to improove it's burn would probably make the engine happier.

300Tdi's dont produce Vaccum. Hence the need for a Vacuum pump. I thought you were a mechanic?

[locorr]

Thanks for the reply's.
Yes I know it's illegal to do it myself.
Yes I've check other sites about lpg diesel, I like the idea not the price.
I would think there would be vacuum on the air cleaner side of the turbo, how much I don't know. Less would be good because the old carbi style lpg fumigators use vacuum to increase the mixture, less vacuum less lpg. They do have enrichment control but I'm not sure how low it goes.
Like I said the navara will be the test mule, it has cancer so it's not long for this world anyway. It's coming up to 400,000 km so it might be fitting if it goes out with a bang.

[p38arover]

Did you Google LPG fumigation?

The first one to come up is this home made system: LPG (Propane) Fumigation for Diesel Engines (http://www.mrsharkey.com/lpg.htm)

[Hymie]

My 200 Tdi has an LPG converter of a 4 cylinder car.
As it's drawing vapour-(and very little of it), from the LPG tank, it does not have to be plumbed into the cars cooling system to "warm" the gas to get the volume of vapour required to run a spark ignition engine.

[abaddonxi]

Did you Google LPG fumigation?

The first one to come up is this home made system: LPG (Propane) Fumigation for Diesel Engines (http://www.mrsharkey.com/lpg.htm)

He's not exactly a role model for safe work practices.:D

Cheers
Simon

[loanrangie]

My 200 Tdi has an LPG converter of a 4 cylinder car.
As it's drawing vapour-(and very little of it), from the LPG tank, it does not have to be plumbed into the cars cooling system to "warm" the gas to get the volume of vapour required to run a spark ignition engine.

Interesting, so its virtually still in a liquid state and very little vapour, have you got any pics you can post ?

[George130]

Will be interesting to see how you go.

[locorr]

Thanks Hymie good to know it can work if I do it right. I just hope I can get my output low enough using the fumigator I have. A mate of mine was pleased when I got my rangie because he said my fumigator was larger than the ones they use for taxi's. Some pics of your setup would be great if thats possible.

[Hymie]

Interesting, so its virtually still in a liquid state and very little vapour, have you got any pics you can post ?

Not immediatley to hand, I can take some and post them tomorrow night or Saturday.

[Blknight.aus]

Maybe a crazy idea but is it possible to use a lpg fumigator off a car for diesel fumigation. Not sure if there is enough adjustment on them to get the ratio low enough. I've read that 15 to 20% is used. I have an old 3.5 rangie on gas and a disco 300tdi. I also have a navara tdi 2.7L that I'll use for experiments, don't want to hurt the disco. I'm also in the process of building my first hydrogen from water splitter. Will attempt to use hydrogen as a catylist for the diesel.


You're wasting your time with the hydrogen. Only big-oil conspiracy types believe that works.

LPG works but will make life very hard on your engine. Be careful.

Just to stir the pot....

I think hydrogen fumigation might just work (im always up to have a play to see if I cant get something for nothing)

given the very slight amount of gas needed to start the flame front propogation (which is essentially all fumigation is doing providing a seriously hot area for the diesel to ignite in) using electrolysis (help on spelling ron) to crack water into h2o and o2 by means of some kind of inverter and relying on the alternator to keep that up might just mean you get some kind of benifit that might just be significant enough to make it worth while.

Remember that the LPG fumigation isnt on all the time so while the system was off it could be generating and storing hydrogen ready to use when you need it most.

just a thought...

[Hymie]

6338

6339

[loanrangie]

6338

6339


Hmm, i actually have all those same parts in the shed, where and what size bottle did you use ? Is there any coolant running thru the converter, looks like a hose opposite where you circled the inlet ?

[Dougal]

Just to stir the pot....

I think hydrogen fumigation might just work (im always up to have a play to see if I cant get something for nothing)

given the very slight amount of gas needed to start the flame front propogation (which is essentially all fumigation is doing providing a seriously hot area for the diesel to ignite in) using electrolysis (help on spelling ron) to crack water into h2o and o2 by means of some kind of inverter and relying on the alternator to keep that up might just mean you get some kind of benifit that might just be significant enough to make it worth while.

Remember that the LPG fumigation isnt on all the time so while the system was off it could be generating and storing hydrogen ready to use when you need it most.

just a thought...

It's the speed (or rather lack of) that hydrogen can be generated that deflates those balloons. About 1 bubble per second isn't going to make any difference to a diesel engine.

Your comments on LPG fumigation are interesting, for that hot-spot to happen the LPG has to be suffering pre-ignition. Yet almost all the LPG proponents I have met swear black and blue that it doesn't ever preignite because they can't hear it.:D

[Blknight.aus]

Just had a look at his site...... didnt even get past the first 3 paragraphs


Propane by itself will not self-ignite inside a diesel-fuel compression-ignition engine.

really?


Attempting to provide more gas to the engine will not increase performance, and will in fact lead to a condition not unlike pre-ignition in a gasoline engine

Then whats that about....

[damienb]

Hmm, i actually have all those same parts in the shed, where and what size bottle did you use ? Is there any coolant running thru the converter, looks like a hose opposite where you circled the inlet ?

No- you can see where the open water pipe is. If it's a small enough gas flow, you don't need water to supply heat. Just rely on ambient heating. It may ice up in colder weather.

[edddo]

very interesting hymie..what are the performance/economy benefits of your system?

[Dougal]

Just had a look at his site...... didnt even get past the first 3 paragraphs



really?



Then whats that about....

LPG fumigation is currently the undisputed holder of the "hype and BS" trophy.

[loanrangie]

No- you can see where the open water pipe is. If it's a small enough gas flow, you don't need water to supply heat. Just rely on ambient heating. It may ice up in colder weather.

I can see a hose clamp and hose protruding from the bottom right of the converter, this is why i asked even though he said no coolant flow.

[Hymie]

To Loanrangie,
The hose at the bottom of the converter is the vapour outlet to the engine.
To Edddo,
Performance wise, it will wheelspin as the turbo boosts in 1st high, which is why I am twisting axles:(
Economy wise, I was getting 650-700 K's out of a tank of Diesel, with Gas It's over 800 and touching 1000 on long trips.
At 7500 k's since my last oil change I am not getting any staining on my fingers from the oil on the dipstick, so I believe the engine is burning cleaner.

(The grease nipple in the Pic is to get people thinking)

[loanrangie]

To Loanrangie,
The hose at the bottom of the converter is the vapour outlet to the engine.
To Edddo,
Performance wise, it will wheelspin as the turbo boosts in 1st high, which is why I am twisting axles:(
Economy wise, I was getting 650-700 K's out of a tank of Diesel, with Gas It's over 800 and touching 1000 on long trips.
At 7500 k's since my last oil change I am not getting any staining on my fingers from the oil on the dipstick, so I believe the engine is burning cleaner.

(The grease nipple in the Pic is to get people thinking)

Thanks for the clarification Hymie, i'll have to have a look at my converter and try and see why the grease nipple is there but iguessing to keep the diaphram spring/ lever lubed ? Is the inline mixture screw the only metering device ? Is the inline solenoid so you can cut the supply quicker ( or is it the only cut off used ) pics of tank used and location would be appreciated - so many questions !

[Hymie]

Thanks for the clarification Hymie, i'll have to have a look at my converter and try and see why the grease nipple is there but iguessing to keep the diaphram spring/ lever lubed ? Is the inline mixture screw the only metering device ? Is the inline solenoid so you can cut the supply quicker ( or is it the only cut off used ) pics of tank used and location would be appreciated - so many questions !


No dramas, I'm here to help if I can.
The grease nipple is just there blanking the coolant gallery, like I said, it gets people guessing:)
The inline screw valve is the flow adjustment, most fitters just go with a small jet and allow no adjustment, if it's opened up too much it will knock. Basicly the valve is screwed shut and the vapour that gets through the thread is enough, it can be opened about 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn more but after that she knocks.
Theres are 2 solenoids, 1 is the main shut off that cuts flow when the ignition is off, the other opens up when the gas is switched on at the dash.
There is also a microswitch on the fuel rack so there in no gas flow at idle.
I'll get a few more pics tonight of the tank etc.

[Blknight.aus]

The one thing I really like about the diesel gas thing is this...

yep you get more distance from a tank of dieso... but your adding an additional fuel source to the engine... If you could run the engine on just the lpg alone how far would it go on just the lpg.. how far would it go on just dieso alone.

now add those 2 distances together.

if that doesnt add up to less than what you actually covered your not really saving money are ya. (this is one of the clever marketing ploys)

but.... in terms of cleanliness of running, smoothenss of running and the aditional power that can me made available its worth looking at.

[loanrangie]

The one thing I really like about the diesel gas thing is this...

yep you get more distance from a tank of dieso... but your adding an additional fuel source to the engine... If you could run the engine on just the lpg alone how far would it go on just the lpg.. how far would it go on just dieso alone.

now add those 2 distances together.

if that doesnt add up to less than what you actually covered your not really saving money are ya. (this is one of the clever marketing ploys)

but.... in terms of cleanliness of running, smoothenss of running and the aditional power that can me made available its worth looking at.

If you are adding only a sniff of lpg then a small tank (say 9kg bbq size) should last for a full tank of diesel, so roughly $120 for a tank of dieso and if filled at a servo say $5 of lpg to get say 1000klm along with extra power and smoother cleaner running, is worth the conversion. Biggest advantage would be to those that tow a van/ boat/trailer etc . Not worth the 3-4k the professional install would be though.

[Dougal]

The one thing I really like about the diesel gas thing is this...

yep you get more distance from a tank of dieso... but your adding an additional fuel source to the engine... If you could run the engine on just the lpg alone how far would it go on just the lpg.. how far would it go on just dieso alone.

now add those 2 distances together.

if that doesnt add up to less than what you actually covered your not really saving money are ya. (this is one of the clever marketing ploys)

but.... in terms of cleanliness of running, smoothenss of running and the aditional power that can me made available its worth looking at.

Oh look I'm saving diesel, because I'm substituting it for LPG.:angel:

There's a guy on eng-tips.com who performed oil analysis on propane fumigated diesels, counts of aluminium and iron were higher.
Does the cleanliness of running make up for the extra wear caused by the detonation?

[feraldisco]

Oh look I'm saving diesel, because I'm substituting it for LPG.:angel:

There's a guy on eng-tips.com who performed oil analysis on propane fumigated diesels, counts of aluminium and iron were higher.
Does the cleanliness of running make up for the extra wear caused by the detonation?

LPG much cheaper than diesel...

But yes, reports of extra engine wear are a worry so think I'll sit on the sidelines for a while until there's some examples with 100K k on the clock...

[Dougal]

LPG much cheaper than diesel...

But yes, reports of extra engine wear are a worry so think I'll sit on the sidelines for a while until there's some examples with 100K k on the clock...

What is your typical LPG price in Aussie?
Here weight for weight it's dearer than diesel, a 9kg bottle is around $16 to fill.

[p38arover]

There's a guy on eng-tips.com who performed oil analysis on propane fumigated diesels, counts of aluminium and iron were higher.

Got a link? I can't find the analysis.

[locorr]

About 70c a litre if you use auto gas compared to 140c litre diesel. I'm hoping that only putting a small amount in will give a slight increase in power and slight increase in economy without putting too much extra strain on anything.

[Dougal]

Got a link? I can't find the analysis.

One that are related but not exactly what I was searching for:
Engine & fuel engineering - Propane enrichment for diesels (http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=7832)

Here're the iron and alumin(i)um comments in this thread:
Engine & fuel engineering - Expert advise on diesel propane fumigation (http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=197876&page=3)