Land Rover Engineer Requires Info

[ORC1]

Hello All

I work in the Land Rover Off Road Capability team based at the design centre at Gaydon, Warwickshire, England. Part of this role is to ensure that LRs remain to be the best off road vehicles possible, I'm currently doing a "real" customer based study into usage and would like comments about our products. I'm mainly interested in current vehicles although I'm still keen to understand any historic issues you guys have.

Thanks for your help.

Lawrence

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hello All

I work in the Land Rover Off Road Capability team based at the design centre at Gaydon, Warwickshire, England. Part of this role is to ensure that LRs remain to be the best off road vehicles possible, I'm currently doing a "real" customer based study into usage and would like comments about our products. I'm mainly interested in current vehicles although I'm still keen to understand any historic issues you guys have.

Thanks for your help.
Lawrence
Lawrence

We've been waiting since 1969 for Land Rover to be interested in what we want. We want LR products that are reliable and not lemons, Check out this thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/yarns-tales-rants/49347-grrr-l-r-warranty.html)
We want to keep our Defenders.
It would be nice if they had a bit more shoulder room - make them wider like the Australian Army Parentie was widened.
The front seats should be able to go to the rear a bit more.
Would even like a flat floor where we could have a suspension seat.
We loved our 3.9Litre Isuzu diesels, the others like the TD5 were too small for the long distances and heavy loads that we carry in our Defenders in Oz.
TDV6 and or the TDV8 should be available as options in the Defender.
The p38a diffs in the extreme and the 2007/8 Defender are giving problems for some people. Having the rear Salisbury available as an option would be good. (Better still return to them as standard.)
There's a start!

Cheers
Diana

[Barra1]

Hi Lawrence,

Nobody buys a Defender to use as a suburban vehicle - not in Australia at least - and yet the Defender is sold new with highway tyres. All-terrain tyres should at least be standard - even an option.

The fuel tank on a Defender - 75 litres does not cut it - very frustrating.

And last but not least - buying a new vehicle and having to upgrade the headlights - solely for safety - is more than just frustrating.

Thanks for your interest. I daresay we will all be anticipating some good results out of this - but given the lack of interest from Land Rover over 60 years..........:(

Regards

[harry]

welcome aboard lawrence, you might like to check out the d3 specific section and look in the technical section also.
i hope your visit here to this forum is helpful to you and your team.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Will be extremely happy to eat my words here,,,

we do have someone who could probably find out if this is a real post or not,,,,,

[WhiteD3]

Lawrence,

A base-spec D3 with TR and air suspension, but without:

Leather
Climate air
Bizenon lights (or what ever they are)
Carpet and cloth trim/lining
That grained plastic on the wheel flares etc which is very hard to clean dirt from.
etc.

Basically a D3 as capable as one with TR but without the fruit.

Cheers.

[Blknight.aus]

ohh goody a landrover engineer....considering that out of the box you have about the most capable 4x4 out there the offroad nail has been well and truely hitits attention to detail things thats going to make the difference IMHO and most of it starts with stuff thats already been mentioned...



75l is a bit light on for fuel when you have the distances to go that we do down here but when that 75l is good for 600+ km its not too bad

the lights work but they could be better.

and now for some "what the hell is that about type questions"

the engine bay layout needs looking into, for something thats ment to be offroaded and you know is going to be forded why is the alternator lower than the ac compressor?

Diffs + axles are up to the job but you can purchase tougher aftermarket items that are sometimes cheaper than genuine originals.

why arent heavy duty recovery points standard fit out and designed into the chassis not something that we need to bolt in aftermarket?

the tyres... What the hell are those road bias general grabbers STILL doing on landrovers? .... ok so they are good on sand and the road but on gravel you might as well be trying to drive on an oil slick on an ice rink.

grease filled wheel bearings... whats with that action? and while we're on wheel bearings how the hell are you ment to do an emergancy repair on a set if you dont have a DTI and all of the spacers that are ment to go between the bearings to set the float when your using the stakenut?

ABS/TC sensors. Having to remove the hub to change them is a right PITA... its not hard to set them up so that you can pull them out through the back of the mounting plate.

Why cant we have a glavd chassis like the perentines?

That'll do for a start....

[dhard]

Are we sure this is not a wind up? Has a fishy smell too it. Maybe i'm just suspicious like pedro_the_ swift.

[Redback]

Stronger diffs and CVs.

[RonMcGr]

Are we sure this is not a wind up? Has a fishy smell too it. Maybe i'm just suspicious like pedro_the_ swift.

Well, Lawrence posted the same message on "Disco Web" and there is a "Land Rover Off Road Capability team".

If you are still not sure:

Land Rover welcomes all questions, enquiries and customer feedback.
For test drive or brochure enquiries
You can contact Land Rover Administration on:
0800 110 110.


Or write to:
Land Rover Administration
Freepost TK494
Twickenham
TW2 5UN


For service or warranty enquiries
You can contact the Land Rover Customer Service Centre on:
08705 000 500.

Or write to:
Customer Relationship Centre
Abbey Road
Whitley
Coventry
CV3 4LH


Call centre opening hours

Land Rover Administration:
Monday - Friday: 8:30am - 6:30pm
Saturday: 9:00am - 5:00pm
Sunday & Bank Holidays: 10:00am - 4:00pm

Land Rover Customer Service:
Monday to Friday 8:30am - 5:30pm

Calls may be monitored and recorded for training or quality assurance purposes.

[Frenchie]

Not really much point asking for improvements ni the existing Defender as that will be done and dusted after the current incarnation.

What we should be looking at is what we want in the all new Defender. :cool:

[Phoenix]

For those that asked. I have had a looksee and Lawrence has the e-mail address to back up what he says in his post. I'm actually rather glad to see that LR are asking what we want to see. I hope you've got some time because I can see this post getting very big Lawrence.

Now for my 5c ;)

Defenders have the option of off road tyres in the UK, the are't used as yuppy mobiles here, but workhorses and off road machines. fit them with off road tyres, at least as an option.

I love the new defender from what i've seen, nice work on that account :thumbsup:

I'll think of more, but i'll add it then ;)

[djam1]

Lawrence
If this is not a wind up (sorry to be a cynic but I havent seen Land Rover take any serious notice of its customers for 50 odd years)
No company with half an ounce of brains would expect people to puchase a new sophisticated vehicle with no dealer coverage throughout most of the country.
My nearest dealer that is of any use is over 1600km away why would I drive a new Land Rover that is reliant upon computers to diagnose and clear its issues.
Do you just expect me to put it on a truck and send it 3200km everytime it stuffs up??
I couldnt seriously buy one, sadly if I were in the market for a new 4x4 I would have to look at the Japanise stuff (and O that thrills me)

[Phoenix]

Yup, more dealer coverage, bring back the 90 to australia, and actually advertise the defenders in australia (I told you i'd think of more things ;) ). Other ideas:

Difflock as a factory option in the defender?
TDV6 or TDV8 in the defender
Auto in the defender
90 to aus
110 dualcab to aus (we are a country of ute lovers)
single cab 130, mm, I guess I mean bring the whole lineup here, or at least allow them to be ordered.
Airbags for the mines companies that would buy them buy the hundereds (I know, not so easy).
Off road tyre options for the other four land rover models (FL2, RRS, RR and D3)

can you tell we love the defender !!

Other threads with similar topics
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/30079-defender-2007-what-did-you-want.html

[rick130]

and as has been noted above, better diffs, axles and CV's are almost a must. Land Rover is sadly lagging behind the opposition in these areas.
Spiral beval diffs in heavy duty vehicles ? :rolleyes:

Go back to the Salisbury rear end, give it 30 spline axles, and a hypoid front diff with decent axles and CV's. The current setup is just too marginal and not a patch on what Nissan offer standard in the Patrol.

And while we are at it, how about going back to the wide based bearing hubs in Defender ? You had it right in the eighties, then abandoned it.

130 chassis are notorious for cracking out here. All the major utilities that used them no longer do because of this. Fix it, please.

Driver selectable diff locks front and rear as an option on Defender. Again, the opposition offer it, why not Land Rover ?
TC isn't good enough in all situations, and the commercial models, the ones that will really be asked to work hard and probably need it don't have it.

As Diana said above, a wider body (and track) would be nice, and larger capacity engines are needed here. How can a 2.4l 4cyl engine compete with Toyota's 4.5l turbo V8 in it's 79 Series ?
A 3+litre turbo diesel would be a good starting point.

Defender steering drag link and track rod just aren't good enough. When the Perentie was under development, the engineers out here recognised that early on and made heavy duty versions. All the factory did was bolt a channel under the front diff for civilian use.
Not good enough.
Heavier duty tie rod ends, and a stronger steering box would be nice, too. Again, your direct opposition out here recognised this and upgraded their components.

[Bigbjorn]

No electronics. A vehicle that is subject to instantaneous total failure that is virtually undiagnosible and unrepairable roadside has no place in the outback. Someone will die because of electronic failures.

A decent size engine. I know this is a totally foreign idea to British automotive design thinking but a 5 or 6 litre naturally aspirated diesel is what is needed for long distance and remote area travel. A 140 or more litre fuel tank also. If possible, avoid a turbocharger. They are something else to maintain and/or fail.

Axles can be made better. Just a mtallurgy change at little cost.

Oil lubricated wheel bearings. Heavy trucks have had these for many, many, years.

A progressive ratio range change gearbox with a top gear that allows cruising on our long distance treks at 120k's and 2000rpm.

Some room for full grown adult male drivers, not Mediterranean and Asian dwarfs. Foot room for at least size 12 heavy boots.

Move the bloody handbrake lever to one side of the seat cushion or the other.

Get non-british (but not French or Italian, their systems are as bad as British) electrical people in to design a reliable and accessible wiring system with durable switches and relays on the headlights, one for each beam on each side. Heavy battery cables with the earth direct to the starter motor and another to the frame.

That will do for a start. I will add more.

[p38arover]

Some interest by Land Rover in its product in Australia would be nice.

I guess the problem is that the money isn't with the enthusiasts, it's with stuff like the RR Sport.

Get on the phone and make some bookings. Come to Cooma in NSW, Australia at Easter for the 60th Anniversary of LR. You'll get more info there than from any quick survey.

I co-administer the RangeRovers.net forum and the most registrations I activate every week are from new Sport owners - closely followed P38A owners with issues.

Some authorised service centres in the country would also be nice. Try finding a mechanic that will even look at one - even an older Disco with no electronics which really is quite a simple vehicle.

I'll ruminate over the question and respond further.

[rick130]

Here's something else to ponder and hopefully make those aware higher up of the situation.
Toyota and Nissan sell the majority of their heavy duty 4wd production between Australia and the Middle east. Toyota and Nissan dominate the heavy duty 4wd market in these countries.
Toyota sold 5,530 79 Series cab chassis and troop carriers last year. Nissan sold 3,429 Patrol cab chassis.

104 Defender SW were sold, and 30 130 Crew Cabs.

I haven't even included Toyota and Nissan station wagon sales. Really a different market.

One of the reasons is the dealer network.

PAG, in it's infinite wisdom canned the country dealer network chasing the luxury (Merc/Lexus) market.
Get a map of Australia then stick pins in it where their are country dealers. Not many. Do the same for Toyota, and to a lesser extent, Nissan, and virtually every country town has a dealer.

Get a decent dealer network up and running and Land Rover may have a presence again in rural Australia. They dominated in the sixties, then lost it all to Toyota as they wouldn't adapt to market demands.

It's great that you are asking the questions, hopefully things may change.

[Tusker]

snip

TC isn't good enough in all situations, and the commercial models, the ones that will really be asked to work hard and probably need it don't have it.


end snip

I'd be happy with TC that consistently works! Not the dashboard Xmas tree syndrome we constantly have. On again off again.. & wheel sensors that last the life of the car please.

A defender on the D3 platform? No body computers. Wind up windows (keep the electric mirrors though). Manual gearbox option. CVs with no rubber boots, maybe u-joints. Long, supple travel isn't needed in a workhorse. No nonsense tyres e.g. 235/85/16s. Conventional suspension, - if air assist is deemed necessary, no computer involvement. Simple easily replaced headlights. Decent sized fuel tank/s. I could go on..

Regards
Max P

[camel_landy]

I've always found that the dealer network to be the biggest let down for a great product...

I'd still argue that for the mainstream Defender market you don't need bigger wheels or a stronger diff but I would concur that a donk which you can fix with a hammer and chisel (like the 300TDi) would be handy for bush areas.

As for authenticity of this thread: Lawrence, if you want to PM me your CDSID, I'll be able to let these guys know if you're genuine.

M

[Phoenix]

Decent wheel sensors to fix the issued the Discovery 2 has would be good as well.

I disagree that a bigger capacity engine is needed, but as an option it would be nice.

[Scallops]

As a new to Land Rover person, who has just purchased a new Defender - I'd add this....

Why are there no recovery points fitted? I still need to find some and get them installed.

Why not make Defenders with spare wheel carriers? The rear door is still not strong enough to carry the wheel - especially off road in Australian conditions.

How about really thinking about the engine layout - an offroad vehicle needs to be robust - why is the alternator not mounted higher than the AC?

We need a dealer network in this country. Or give Ford the know how.

I reckon the tyres are actually pretty good but I'd have preferred an option of split rim steel wheels - trying to fit a new tyre or repair a flat on a nice looking alloy with 5 million flies for company is not much fun.

How about matching other manufacturer's warranty - 5 years is now a standard.

How about getting advertising material to match the vehicle specs - brochure implied front mudflaps, MP3 compatibility etc as standard but they're not.

And how about a few more solid paint options? I had to get a white one as it was the only non metallic paint colour.

As for the engine - I reckon you got that right - IMO, the new Defender doesn't need a TDV6 or 8 - if you guys drive it you'll see!

Overall - LR have done a great job with the new Defender - once I've sorted what I can from the above list I reckon I'll be unstoppable.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Will be extremely happy to eat my words here,,,

we do have someone who could probably find out if this is a real post or not,,,,,


For those that asked. I have had a looksee and Lawrence has the e-mail address to back up what he says in his post. I'm actually rather glad to see that LR are asking what we want to see. I hope you've got some time because I can see this post getting very big Lawrence.

Now for my 5c ;)

Defenders have the option of off road tyres in the UK, the are't used as yuppy mobiles here, but workhorses and off road machines. fit them with off road tyres, at least as an option.

I love the new defender from what i've seen, nice work on that account :thumbsup:

I'll think of more, but i'll add it then ;)




as stated,, am VERY happy to eat my words:D
(ya gotta admit,, its was a bit unlikely--)

servicing is probably the biggest concern,,
lack of interest by salepeople at dealers is another,,

You cant expect to trade off

The Legend

and not help perpetuate it.

at least by supporting the vehicles that made that legend,,
and the enthusiasts that keep that history on the road,,,


Thankyou for your interest.:D

[1103.9TDI]

Welcome aboard Lawrence, it'll be a first for any vehicle manufacturer to ask advice from customers in an open forum such as this.......if this is fair dinkum!.
I agree broadly with the ideas Brian Hjelm, rick130, Phoenix and Blknightaus have raised, with regard to the Defender. I also think if you produce a vehicle with the reputation the Defender should have, then it should follow along the lines of:

Unwaivering reliability, so no electric windows etc, gizmo's are good in a vehicle that is not capable offroad, but have no place in the bush!.

A simple engine virtually anyone can work on, with basic knowledge (look at the Isuzu 4BD1), and overengineered, accessable, rebuildable mechanicals. Why is everything throwaway these days!.

Do something different to the norm!, build it to last!, lets have the firewall, door frames and chassis galvanised, or at least the option, stay with the aluminium-it's uniquely Land Rover-almost everyone mentions it in conversation.

Can we also have the front vents back, with airconditioning!.

Make the vehicle wider, 200mm each side should do it, and plan as much as possible for the fitment of quality aftermarket accessories, offer them yourselves and corner the market!.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Lawrence

Have to agree with the sentiment about the dealer network. Have a look at an Australian Land Rover dealer list for 1949 or even for 1969 then take a look at one now.

I can tell you in 1949 there were 43 recognised Land Rover dealers in NSW outside Sydney not including the master distributor of Grenville Motors. How many are there outside Sydney today?

One of those 1949 dealers was Modern Motors Dungog (OT & SA Rumble) a couple of years ago LR Australia sacked them because they weren't one of the big city dealers.

How can Land Rover ask for brand loyalty from us your customers when you don't have loyalty for your loyal local car dealers.

Diana

[jase]

what they said
I love landrovers :D (a sickness I know :o)
my wife drives a current shape RR Td6 :cool:
I have a 130 dual cab ;)

BUT I also have a german luxo 4wd as a daily driver and japanese ute as well becuse they are waaaaay more reliable than any LR products (sorry to say :( )
(FYI Jap ute - I hate it, uncomfortable piece of junk, only 3 yrs old & only done 150 ks but I own it becuase it goes every day and NEVER lets you down)

lack of dealer support and the fact that they (the dealers) are complete and utter rip off if you do go to one are BIG issues here (I don't call them stealers for nothing and I aviod them like the plague)

I still love LRs but to be honest I wouldn't own one anymore (I've been let down to many times) if I wasn't handy with spanners & didn't have a freind with an aftermarket LR shop to fix them for me :(
LR I love them but wouldn't recommend one to a freind :eek:

Just make them reliable, they are already the most capable 4wd

Jase

[Aaron]

All this stuff is all very cute... But if it has an engine, it should have a cup holder.

[waynep]

I'd love a D3 or Defender but the lack of dealers /service shops around the country is the biggest concern for me.
I'm going to do a BIG trip in a couple of years and don't want to be 1500 kms from the nearest service centre- so it looks like it'll have to be Jap at this stage - unfortunately.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Lawrence,

Nobody buys a Defender to use as a suburban vehicle - ...
... Thanks for your interest. I daresay we will all be anticipating some good results out of this - but given the lack of interest from Land Rover over 60 years..........:(

Regards
Barra

I have to disagree with you over the 60 years bit, the lack of interest from Land Rover has only been about 40 years.

In the days of the Rover Co Ltd before BMC and British Leyland, Land Rover was very interested in the marque in Australia. Rover Co Ltd even had engineers in Australia working with the Snowy Mountains Hydro Electric Commission fixing problems. There are a number of examples where we had a direct influence on modifications one of those being removing the banjo fitting on the brakes of the 80".

Still since the 1960s when we approached Land Rover (remembering there was a Land Rover assembly plant in Enfield, Sydney) Land Rover was most disinterested while at the same time Toyota listened to everything we had to say and even put it in the vehicles. There are many examples of Oz design of subsequent LC fittings. The original turbo charger for example, a direct copy of the ARB design.

Diana

[Scallops]

All this stuff is all very cute... But if it has an engine, it should have a cup holder.

The new one does!

[D3Jon]

Will be extremely happy to eat my words here,,,

we do have someone who could probably find out if this is a real post or not,,,,,

Seems strange to me as well...

Anyway, surely this site logs IP addresses for all posts? Just check which country the IP address comes from. Simple. ;)

[RonMcGr]

Interesting replies :-)

Here are some from a US LR site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Default Re: Land Rover Engineer Requires Info
I think that the thing most of us want on this board is the defender back in North America. Not a new vehicle based off the LR3 and badged as a "new defender." But the current production models with a few upgrades, air bags etc, in order for them to be brought over here again. I know personaly that's the only new Land Rover I'd consider buying off of a dealer lot.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Car makers tout the off-road capability of a vehicle and throw street tires on it and show it driving down dirt roads. And people buy it anyway...gawd! I know that's just advertising, but where'd they get the idea?

Get rid of the air suspension. If you're too old to get up into your truck, then you need a c-dan. It's a cool selling feature but when one bag goes out, or the whole system goes out...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. Solid axles (no independent suspension).
2. Center diff lock.
3. Front and rear diff locks (ones that don't turn off automatically after you reach a certain speed).
4. Manual Transmission (6-speed with a granny low gear and OD 6th would be nice).
5. Absent that a nice 6 speed auto with a granny low and OD 6th would be acceptable - but needs to have a button you can use anytime for full manual control of what gear you're in.
6. Turbo-Diesel engine that makes good power, gets good MPG.
7. Full frame.
8. Fuse box with extra slots to add on things like air compressors, radios, driving lights, etc.
9. Non-sagging headliner (like get it Rhino lined or something - no fabric).
10. Real bumpers - not the plastic garbage. Optional winch bumper setup (not an add on that hangs down in the mud please).
11. Lockable storage spaces, I wish my glove box, center console and side boxes in the rear were lockable.
12. Get rid of all your proprietary OBDII and ABS software and make it available to people who don't want to pay a fortune to the dealer or spend a fortune on aftermarket software and code readers.
13. Lower gears for low range in the transfer case.
14. Factory 35" tires.
15. Beefed front steering.
16. Lastly a Rover that doesn't leak all over the place.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Defender, Defender, Defender, TDI...
Most of us would be most pleased to see a D90 or 110 on the dealer lot new, not 10 years old and $75,000.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As you can see, most Land Rover owners are after the same thing :D

[loanrangie]

I have probably the singular most important point to make - DONT LET THE CURRY MUNCHERS BUY LANDROVER OR JAG FOR THAT MATTER !.

Also how about a base spec defender, no abs/tc etc, move that bloody handbrake lever already !, an auto for the defender would be nice.

[ellard]

Hi there

This is a very scary post - just imagine if you were interested in purchasing a new Land Rover (you would think twice after reading this post)

There is a few strong points.

1. Lack of dealers.
2. Lack of reliability
3. Lack of advertising
4. Lack of room within the cabs of the Defenders.
5 etc....etc....etc....

I can remember a discussion on the Cooma 60th thread - it took a very long time for Land Rover Australia to become a major sponsor. It amazes my "why" it as it would be huge advertising event for Land Rover in general (this initally was sending a message they really dont care).

In conclussion - Land Rover Australia is at the cross road with there sales numbers dwindling, and they need to pull a rabbit out (you know the rest).

I am hopping this post is not a hoax and they are take notes of the problems and issues, from the people whom admire the Land Rover Heritage and its Future.

Well these are my views.

Wayne

[incisor]

This is a very scary post -
not as scary as yours and a couple of others...

[Aaron]

Drivers side door, correct?

[UncleHo]

G'day Lawrence :)

Welcome to Australian Land Rover Owners online (AULRO.com) may your stay prove fruitful to you:) if you aren't familiar with the country, here is a little info, England fits into the state of Qld 6 times:eek: and that is only one State,and not the biggest, so until the British Senior management do a total clean-out of the 1950's attitude of Australian Management & Attitude, "Take what we give you", E.G. that a customer only enters a Rover Dealership when he/she has decided to purchase a Rover Product the sales will only be minimal in this country, closing dealer and sub-dealerships does not engender customer loyality, the reason that the Japanese and other Oriental vehicles have such a stranglehold on the market is: SERVICE!!!!!! you can buy part and get the vehicles serviced in remote areas, AND they don't just 1 or 2 articles per part No, but when they entered Australia the policy was/is for every 1 vehicle complete entering the country 2 vehicles in spare was stocked;)

Until Senior Management understand that Sales are Dependent on Service/Spares facilities.

by
Ex Leyland Australia Spare Parts Personell:) 1965-1980 approx


regards
Uncle Ho

[Davo]

It really makes you wonder . . . with a huge work ute market here, in asia, and in the middle east, how and why Land Rover hasn't addressed it is beyond me. All that money to be made! Millions of dollars!

We just got a new Toyota Landcruiser diesel V8 here at work. It has plenty of power, nice wind-up windows, simple suspension - i.e., no airbags - and while we have our own mechanic here he doesn't have the computer gear he needs for the engine, but that's okay because there's a dealer not too far away. We had to wait 7 months to get this car because they're so popular. When it came time to order this new car last year, there was no discussion about what to get. It would just naturally be a Landcruiser. That's how much they dominate the market share they have.

I wouldn't want to buy one because I don't need such a complicated engine and there's just too much power for part-time four-wheel-drive, but I wouldn't get a new Landie because there's no way I could ever get it fixed, being so far away from any dealer. (Er, is there a dealer in Broome?)

So . . . fix all the stupid things that let the car down: electronics, rear diffs, rusty bits, etc.; build a decent network of dealers who aren't idiots; and actually advertise the Defender.

That last point might help! It's a great time to get back some of the market lost to Toyota.

[D3Jon]

Sorry, but I can't see this as being a real question placed by Land Rover or one of their representatives.

Who in their right mind would ask for product feedback on a public forum?

So now we currently have LR owners trashing LR and their cars on a public forum that turns up for years in Google searches and will no doubt be linked to by every Nissan and Toyota forum going.

Think about it guys... this is probably a troll... if not, then the guy must be a student / inexperienced LR employee / ex-employee (if he worked for me).

There are proper ways to do this and this is not it.

[Scallops]

Sorry, but I can't see this as being a real question placed by Land Rover or one of their representatives.


For those that asked. I have had a looksee and Lawrence has the e-mail address to back up what he says in his post.

Phoenix checked it out earlier ;)

[ATH]

The main reason I sold my 2003 Td5 Defender was the lack of service agents not the actual reliability of the thing although the Throttle Potentiometer stuffing up 1200klms from home didn't do too much to help either the cooks or my own faith in it.
Or the fact it took 3 weeks to get it back to Perth although the blame for that lay with the disinterested truck drivers.

So what I'd like to see is massive expansion of dealers or accredited service agents, less computer control of the things, bigger fuel tanks and an engine big enough to pull a camper trailer up hills without struggling!

Lots of others have expressed some cynicism about the poster and I'm the same.
Why the hell would LR be interested in Australian users after years of couldn't care less that they're building products which don't appeal to buyers because of their bad reputation, deserved or not, and why now after running the dealer/servicer network into the ground and about to be sold probably to the Indians?
Even if it's a genuine inquiry I don't believe anything will come of it anyway.
Alan.

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

This questioning post could also be a way for the "New Owners" to find out just what is wrong in the rest of the world outside of UK and what Ford did wrong, anything has to be an improvement on the current situation:)

cheers

[incisor]

i am ready to delete it now...

dust sealing on a defender? how would the water get out? buy a disco ;)

cup holders? give me a break .... buy a disco ;)

oil leaks ? its a pommy truck for [inset your universal beings name here] sake! buy a toyota or nissann ;)

decent service network now that is something worth looking at.. :eek:

:spudnikbackflip:

:TIC:

[Phoenix]

Sorry, but I can't see this as being a real question placed by Land Rover or one of their representatives.



Phoenix checked it out earlier ;)

The IP address also correlates as it being a LR employee. Whether it's being done of their own back, or at request of the company is yet to be seen, but I doubt they would be allowed to use a company e-mail for personal use.

[isuzurover]

Great to have a Land Rover Engineer on here. In my experience:

Diffs, halfshafts, cvs need to be upgraded - they are the smallest/weakest of any COMPARABLE 4x4 available in Australia.

EVERY other manufacturer has switched to hypoid diffs, why is LR still using spiral bevel???

Why did the salisbury go? It was great (just needed slightly larger halfshafts). The P38/wolf (or whatever it is called) diff that replaced it is woefully inadequate.

Why isn't there a LSD option. A company called Haultech in Australia has proven that LSDs combined with traction control work fantastically offroad.

EDIT: As mentioned earlier - a factory option of larger wheels would be great - like the one-ton of old. Jeep managed to do it with the Wrangler Rubicon (which sold quite well to my knowledge) - why not a defender model with 35" tyres from the factory?

[dhard]

IF this is serious then how about some factory front and rear diff locks on the defender. Trucks that can spend weeks away from civilization don't need electronic traction control a more reliable mechanical way of controlling traction is far better. 140 litre plus fuel tank,At tyres as standard get a 4wd training program going in Australia so new buyers can be taught by Landrover experts. Dealer networks definateley need to be improved not much point in having a car that you need to drive 1000k's plus to find someone who can service them. The product you have is a good one it just needs a better support network to convince rural Australia it is worth the risk.

[Grizzly_Adams]

I drive a Defender so can't really comment on the Discoveries. From what I've seen of the Discoveries and RR's they are both very nice vehicles but speaking from my own experience I would like to see the following enhancements on the Defender:

Stronger Axles
Oil instead of grease lubrication for the axles
Automatic gearbox option
Low-low range option
Front and Rear Diff-lock as options
Bonnet-mounted and rear-door spare wheel carrier (yes 2 x spares wheels is a definite plus out here!)
FIX THE LEAKS
Keep the air-vents
Add a ceiling mounted air-con in the back somewhere
More ute options
Proper side-steps (ie, drop the existing side-steps and replace the sills with rock-sliders with tree-sliders attached - use them as the side-steps)
Re-inforced housing on the diffs
Smaller steering wheel for the larger person
More leg room in the front of the Defender would be nice
I've seen a mod to the Defender handbrake to replace it with a RR handbrake, that seems to work well
A centre console where the lock doesn't constantly fall out

If I think of more I'll post 'em up :)

[Quarks]

G'day,

I've a couple of things to suggest -

The electronics are excellent when they work, what they really need is to be a lot more robust.

With regards to engines - if you could figure out a way to keep the electronic control for the most part, but also a way for it to run in an electronics independent 'dumb' mode: fuel + air = get home when it all goes belly-up in the middle of nowhere.
I agree with TDV6, TDV8 as options :thumbsup:
And a fuel tanks to last 1000+ kms.

Also, in Australia, we do like utes - there have been some really nice conversions done to Discos 1 & 2 - but I'm not too sure about the dual cab D3 (yet ;) - although a single cab should probably look pretty good.
And King Cab style 110s and 130s would be popular - more room for the big blokes.

For a future Defender, is there a chance you could look at redesigning the structure so that there's the chassis, then there's a roll cage, then there's the bodywork?
One thing I liked in the pre-2007 Defenders was the fact that the rear seats were divided evenly, so the person in the middle got a full butt's worth of seat - unlike most other cars where the middle seat goes to the drawer of the short straw. So the new, full backed rear seat with the old seat spacings would be perfect.

I know it's a bit hard to address things like dealer network and vehicle availability (or lack thereof!) and so on from a design and engineering point of view, but it would certainly help if the vehicles don't have to go back for repairs!!
:D

[JDNSW]

There is little I can add that has not already been said.

The biggest issue is the dealer network (or lack thereof). But given that the dealer network is sadly lacking, it is essential in a vehicle intended to be used (even if not based) outside the major cities that it not need specialist dealer services for repair of maintenance. As suggested, this could perhaps be best done by using simple, understandable engineering, with a well written service and repair manual (as e.g. Series 2a) so that any mechanic could repair or service it. An alternative could be to provide full on board diagnostics that can display the diagnosis without extra software and a PC - this would add almost nothing to the cost of the car, and is something I expect to eventually appear in all cars - why should not Landrover be the first?

As others have mentioned, the range is inadequate - 1000km should be considered the bare minimum. Some of the others' suggestions would lead to a much heavier and larger vehicle, which is not really a very good idea, but a modest increase in width of the Defender to allow more space would be a very good idea. The average western man or woman has increased substantially in size since the dimensions were set in the 1950s, in the UK's post war austerity.

John

[Phoenix]

An alternative could be to provide full on board diagnostics that can display the diagnosis without extra software and a PC - this would add almost nothing to the cost of the car, and is something I expect to eventually appear in all cars - why should not Landrover be the first?

I love that idea John :thumbsup:

They have the displays to do it, so rather than a meaningless warning light, why not be able to switch mode to say that there is a fault detected at the wheel sensor, or an engine sensor etc!

[p38arover]

I love that idea John :thumbsup:

They have the displays to do it, so rather than a meaningless warning light, why not be able to switch mode to say that there is a fault detected at the wheel sensor, or an engine sensor etc!

Well, all the sensors are there, it must be possible to build in diagnostic software at minimal cost. Amortised over the number of production vehicles, the cost would be reasonable and I'd be happy to pay for it.

The size of my RovaCom MSV is quite small so size isn't an issue.

Again LR could lead the world. I can see that other manufacturers would follow suit pretty quickly.

Would I take my Rangie well away from the beaten track? Not without a laptop and the RovaCom

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I love that idea John :thumbsup:

They have the displays to do it, so rather than a meaningless warning light, why not be able to switch mode to say that there is a fault detected at the wheel sensor, or an engine sensor etc!
They could even connect the diagnosis into the seating -
Error FP2 - "Warning your passenger is a fat cow"
Error FP3 - "Warrning your passenger has a BMI in the anorectic range" "Cancel warning Only if passenger is a super model while offering a plate, 1 pea and a fork"


Diana :D

[discowhite]

hope you havnt been talking to a mr marcel fabris! he has a nice 90 but unfortunatly he dont know how to use it:twisted: thank god you are asking the rest of us;)

cheers phil




Hello All

I work in the Land Rover Off Road Capability team based at the design centre at Gaydon, Warwickshire, England. Part of this role is to ensure that LRs remain to be the best off road vehicles possible, I'm currently doing a "real" customer based study into usage and would like comments about our products. I'm mainly interested in current vehicles although I'm still keen to understand any historic issues you guys have.

Thanks for your help.

Lawrence

[Michael2]

Put a disc hand brake on the new Defender, so that the handbrake doesn't protrude below the chassis rails.

TDV6 in the Defender.

Auto option for the Defender (with the TDV6 this will open up a whole new "towing market").

Less steel, more aluminium.

Real alternators in the Defender (though I must say I don't know what the current one has).

HID headlights, LED taillights.

Rear Air Con. in the Defender.

Reinforce spare wheel carrier / door in the Defender.

Better quality plastics for the interior.

Extra stowage options (map pockets etc) in the Defender.

Can I please torture test the next Land Rover? PM me if that's okay, it should help resolve any preproduction weaknesses.

[Davo]

(I can't leave this thread alone! :D)

Like what was said in the last few posts. The electronics are a fact of life these days, but how about making them more accessible? Small units that can be unplugged and replaced with a spare; that sort of thing.

It seems cars are headed this way anyhow, so wouldn't it be something if Land Rover was the first? Especially for commercial and outback work. You'd have the inevitable electronics and the ability to repair them, or at least troubleshoot. That would make the current capable vehicles really trustworthy out in the bush.

[PAT303]

You all have to face the fact that electronics are here to stay and thats that.LR just has to support the privately run repairers as that is who we take our vehicles to,no one uses dealers there a rip off.Cat has been using electric injectors in thier huey engines for years and they rarely play up so why doesn't LR use the same setup.A TDV6 engine in Defender and a telecom special D3 would also be nice.

[Jamo]

As a D3 TDV6 owner with 110,000km so far:

Like the above posts: Some onboard diagnostics. The car should at least tell you the exact error.

A front locking diff option

Larger fuel capacity

A higher speed limit for 'Off Road' height

Plug and Play ecu modules

[ciapek]

Hmmm....still no response nor reply from Lawrence....:eek:

And you guys are still bagging your own vehicles....:(

If I really wanted, I too could be an Engineer, a Fighter Pilot, or a Porn Star for that matter.....:D.....And the only place that could 'happen in is.......you guessed it......ON THE INTERNET. !!!!

Hey, what if TATA is doing their own "Pre Puchase" inspection here, on the Viability their new aquisition........:eek:

Not negative about this guys, just treading lightly...so to speak.....:angel:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hmmm....still no response nor reply from Lawrence....:eek: .....:angel:
He posted after midnight last night, and all you'se guys were probably still in bed when he went home from work.

Let us see what happens tonight if he actually posts when he returns for the new day? That is if he is who he says he is!

Would you buy from an eBay vendor with a profile of only 1?

Diana

[WOLLAPIT85]

Excuse me Mr. Lawrence,
Will Land Rover ever build a vehicle that you don't have to finish yourself.

[garryc]

Hmmm....still no response nor reply from Lawrence....:eek:

And you guys are still bagging your own vehicles....:(

If I really wanted, I too could be an Engineer, a Fighter Pilot, or a Porn Star for that matter.....:D.....And the only place that could 'happen in is.......you guessed it......ON THE INTERNET. !!!!

Hey, what if TATA is doing their own "Pre Puchase" inspection here, on the Viability their new aquisition........:eek:

Not negative about this guys, just treading lightly...so to speak.....:angel:
Mentioning TATA made me think :cool: You could have Dealer/Curry house combinations and then they would be everywhere :D

[sclarke]

They dont need anything doing to them.

If they were finished or did not have quirks then they would be perfect, just like a Landcruiser or Patrol....

I like the problems LR have, its British and it stand out in a crowd

If i wanted a reliable, perfect 4wd that needed nothing done to it, id buy a Toyota.....

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[p38arover]

For those that asked. I have had a looksee and Lawrence has the e-mail address to back up what he says in his post.


I don't know how the AULRO activates members. With the RRNET forum, I can put any email address I like. However, the system emails the registrant and me to tell me of the reigistration. They then have to email me to confirm it - then I activate them.

Pheeny, did you try sending an email to him to see if it bounced?

[PeterM]

Ok, engineering & development suggestions.

As you've gathered, the majority of people here are Defender owners. I feel the Discovery package is about right and the demographic is changing from the early Discovery drivers. I own a 1994 Disco and would not look at a new Disco as I include moderate off-roading in my normal use. The new Disco is too 'nice' to do that to. I'd be looking at a Defender instead.

Dual tanks - This will help the range while not putting all your eggs in one basket.

Computing - I like the suggestions for on board diagnostics, or make it able to interface with something readily available like an MP3/4 player. Limp mode to get to help if not catastrophic failure.

Wiring - Set up a C-Bus system to reduce the amount of wiring for computing and sensors. LED lights all 'round except for headlights.

Interior - Better shoulder room and move the handbrake. New Def interior is good step forward. Dust sealing needs to be better. Keep the excellent visibility. Improve NVH inside and have a 'deluxe' interior option with carpet in passenger area.

Mechanicals - Toughen the driveline components as mentioned (axles, CVs etc.). Diff locks as options, 33' tyres as std on steel rims (alloys an option), rock slider/steps as option, rear wheel carrier. Something like ACE or magnetically adjustable dampers to control roll & handling when on road or loaded while allowing full articulation when required. TDV6 engine please, have as standard across the LR range to ease parts stocking and reduce training liability for mechanics. Auto option for Defender. Recovery points already engineered into the vehicle.

Safety - Internal roll cage would be nice but if required strength can be engineered into the body that'd create more space. ABS diconnect when in low range, electronic brake force distribution, airbags as an option. Design it to pass US safety requirements (that is a huge market).

Models - Replace the exisitng 130 with a 6x6 variant. This would have similar overall dimensions to the 130 but the middle axle being closer to the front would reduce stress on the chassis. Improved ground pressure for a vehicle that can carry a lot of gear too. When coupled to a decent support network this would have the ability to gain huge market share in primary industry/mining and would provide an excellent base for specialist vehicles for tourism, emergency services etc. This would be available in single and dual cab variants, including cab-chassis.

Bring the 90 in and it should be noticeably cheaper than the 110.

Discovery and RR range maintain, perhaps include a 'no frills' D3.

[roverrescue]

In this thread there have been many "move the handbrake" comments.

As an ex-disco driver I use to think the handbrake in a def was a design flaw.... but since now owning a deefer I dont want the foot rest, sorry handbrake to go anywhere. If you measure the width between handbrake and door it is wider than the footwell in a troopy (older style anyway which is the only competetion for a 110). So in moving it you will firstly have way more room than you need and no footrest - i like it there.

Steve

[CraigE]

Lawrence,
If this is for real welcome and good to see some interest from LR, finally.
Most has been said.
LR service in country areas is urgently needed. Having to drive 800kms for any servicing/dealer work is not acceptable. Most country dealers and service agents are gone.
Keep the Defender and retain a resemblance.
TDV6 or TDV8 would be fantastic.
Minimal electronics or at least the ability to be able to reset. I follwed a RR HSE (latest model) for a few kms on Monday that had dropped down on suspension and was in limp mode in Esperance WA. If this did not reset itself this guy would have to have it trucked to Albany 500kms or Perth 800kms as there is no longer a service agent in Esperance and would be useless in remote areas after all these are 4x4s.
More shoulder and leg room in the Defender.
Thanks
CraigE

[harry]

well boys,
if lawrence is real, then he should be awake now and on his way to the office, presuming he is a 9.00 am starter in the land of the pomm.
time here is 6.37 pm and in london now is 8.37 am, so give him an hour or so to get into his day and see if he replies.
oh, and stop bagging land rovers.

[Disco_owner]

I'd definitey buy a new L/R if it had;

1) 3.0L international tdi Donk.
2) Stronger Diffs and Axles ( already mentioned )
3) Wheel carrier incorporated into the design of the vehicle ( already mentioned )
4) Coil Spring Live Axle suspension
4) bigger Fuel tank than the 83 litres ( already mentioned)
5) a roof lining that didn't sag ( already mentioned )
6) manual winding Windows ( already metioned )
7) a dash that didn't vibrate
8) Seats would fold down so I could sleep inside the vehicle.
9) a Descent set of Steel Rims designed for L/R Optional and affordable ) , not the Alloys that bent too easily when offroading
10) price that was reasonable

[camel_landy]

Where's his reply?? Give him a chance... It's only just turning 09:00 over here!

As for asking questions on open forums, yep, I've seen it done before. I ended up having a chat to one of the engineers working on the suspension on L322 after asking a question on the RaRo forum.

M

[LandyAndy]

Hi Guys
One of our Perth members has a father in law that does very similar work at Landrover.Hell of a nice bloke,met him on on of our trips.
Will pm the member and get him to check it out for us.
Andrew

[camel_landy]

Will pm the member and get him to check it out for us.

If Lawrence sends me his CDSID, I can do the same thing... ;)

M

[Rovernaut]

Will be extremely happy to eat my words here,,,

we do have someone who could probably find out if this is a real post or not,,,,,
Ah, you are paranoid that it could be a Toyo owner from another forum trying to get dirt on Landies.:D:D:D:D:D

But if it's fair dinkum.... I would say better tolerances to STOP OIL LEAKS FROM EVERY ORIFACE

[2 rocks]

Ah, you are paranoid that it could be a Toyo owner from another forum trying to get dirt on Landies.:D:D:D:D:D

But if it's fair dinkum.... I would say better tolerances to STOP OIL LEAKS FROM EVERY ORIFACE

I said this before...must be something wrong with me! I'm an outcast...

Mine doesn't leak! (and yes all the levels are fine ;) ) lol!

Mike

[p38arover]

But if it's fair dinkum.... I would say better tolerances to STOP OIL LEAKS FROM EVERY ORIFACE

My 4.6 doesn't leak a drop. Seriously. It's dead dry underneath.

[ORC1]

Evening

Thanks for all your comments, and this isn't a wide up I'm very interested in hearing from proper off road drivers that use Land Rovers in harse environments. As some of you have mentioned perhaps this isn't the best way to get info but it gives me the level of detail that I need, the company's other surveys only give % levels of satisfaction and not the reasons behind them.

Obvisously I can't comment directly on your concerns but I do read them with great interest. And your never know I might get the sack but at least I've tried (LOL).....I love Landys and want to help make them the best possible vehicles we can..

Loz

[disco gazza]

Agree with most things you guys have already mentioned.....diff,suspension,tyres, DEALER NETWORK,etc, etc, etc.

Lawrence is actually a Melbournian....He owns a D2,V8(that is currently in Rangie Spares getting a rebuild--4.0 to 4.6)
He's also member of the D2au yahoo group,as I am as well.

I do like to read up on all the in & outs of members Landies,so that I know what to expect in terms of potential problems that could occur and what course of action they took to get the problem rectified.::)

Sorry,I'm digressing here.:eek:

gazza

[procrastination inc]

Sorry, but I can't see this as being a real question placed by Land Rover or one of their representatives.

Who in their right mind would ask for product feedback on a public forum?


an engineer not a marketeer.

good luck to if him if it is legit. This is an honest, no nonsense way to get into the head of your customers. To get howled down for it in the halls or LR HQ smacks of small minded butt covering.

Be honest, do it right.

This is how a practical man would go about giving a customer what they want.

[harry]

Evening

Thanks for all your comments, and this isn't a wide up I'm very interested in hearing from proper off road drivers that use Land Rovers in harse environments. As some of you have mentioned perhaps this isn't the best way to get info but it gives me the level of detail that I need, the company's other surveys only give % levels of satisfaction and not the reasons behind them.

Obvisously I can't comment directly on your concerns but I do read them with great interest. And your never know I might get the sack but at least I've tried (LOL).....I love Landys and want to help make them the best possible vehicles we can..

Loz

now i am sus,
first, 'evening' '
'good evening' would be more like it, however it ain't evening in the land of the pomm, [where this is supposedly coming from]
'this isn't a wide up' not just a typo in a qwerty keyboard, but a spelling mistake by an , er person that can't spell.
'and your never know' er' as above.
oh, i forgot 'harse'.
ron, did i miss something?
i think i [we] may have been dudded.

[ak]

Well Lawrence if this is for real, if you only did the following and nothing else to the next defender they would sell like hot cakes everywhere.

1. Auto option

2. TDV6 & TDV8

3. Diff locks front and rear and in that case get rid of TC.

4. Longer range tank

5. Proper recovery points

6. Retain similar shape and build in a little more durability in drive-train etc

Hell I'd even sell my Disco and buy one.

Just have a look what GM released at the latest motor show with the concept H3. " Diff locks all round and intergrated winch" it won't be long until the defender loses it's title as the most capable 4wd off the factory floor.

[Barra1]

I was the second person to reply to Lawrence's enquiry. Big claim to fame that was. :(

But I rushed in because of one reason and one reason only. I thought someone, anyone, was prepared to listen to the many frustrations I have regarding Land Rover.

Actually I was a bit lost for words, I was. Now that is a surprise to anyone who has read a number of my previous threads but I truly was - stunned actually.

Hell, someone cared:o:o:o :oActually cared enough to ask:o:o:o

I've read each and every post on this thread - and virtually wept.

Someone asked - Lawrence - a fraud or the real thing - it doesn't matter - and there we were. Yep, there we were venting our many frustrations regarding Land Rover.

This has brought home that we are indeed the most loyal of all motor vehicle owners and yet the manufacturers (or God forbid - the many, many owners of the Company) cannot recognise or understand this.

We were all so very quick - even in a state of distrust to the authenticity of Lawrence - to let fly about the inadequacies of our vehicles.

To me, this thread has not proven or demonstrated the faults of our vehicles. It has, however, shown me the level of loyalty and pride in ownership that we have for our beloved vehicles. For with all their faults we would not, will not, swap or change our vehicles for what many perceive as a better vehicle - whatever that definition means.

This thread has also shown me the level of stupidity demonstrated by so-called - actually what would you call the decision-makers of the great Land Rover Company - executives/directors - whatever - for they have a market, they have market loyalty and they have the best vehicle and yet are do not know how to take advantage of it.

Sadly, as this thread demonstrated - they simply needed to ask. Ask the owners.

i don't know if Lawrence is for real - I do however, as always when one feels duped - feel betrayed.

Not only betrayed by Lawrence but also betrayed by Land Rover for they should have asked this question many years ago.

Lawrence, if indeed you are real - well done.

Lawrence, if indeed you are a fraud and liar - for that is what you are sir if you are not genuine - I sincerely pray you shall have wooden legs and get caught in a bushfire.

[Debacle]

Does anyone recall the great Aust 4wd Monthly Shed Sting a while ago.

Maybe i am just cynical and suspicious.

Has anyone heard from Lozza

[hodgo]

Hello All

I work in the Land Rover Off Road Capability team based at the design centre at Gaydon, Warwickshire, England. Part of this role is to ensure that LRs remain to be the best off road vehicles possible, I'm currently doing a "real" customer based study into usage and would like comments about our products. I'm mainly interested in current vehicles although I'm still keen to understand any historic issues you guys have.

Thanks for your help.

Lawrence


Lawrence
Have a look at this web sight carsguide.com.au , there are several, interesting and very current reports on Land Rovers

Regards Hodgo

[ORC1]

You guys crack me up, send me a PM and I'll respond from my Land Rover email account. Then perhaps you/we can have a decent discussion.

Never had this problem on the US forums!!!

P.S. sorry for my typo!!! Well spotted!!!

Loz :)

[Rovernaut]

You guys crack me up, send me a PM and I'll respond from my Land Rover email account. Then perhaps you we can have a decent discussion.

Never had this problem on the US forums!!!

P.S. sorry for my typo!!! Well spotted!!!

Loz :)

You obviously didn't see Top gear in the US:D:D:D

[Rovernaut]

..I love Landys and want to help make them the best possible vehicles we can..

Loz
Bit hard when LR sells to TATA:eek::eek::eek:

[abaddonxi]

Only two things I want for Christmas is gal on all the steel bits and economical diesels that'll run biodiesel.

If you want a guzzler stick with the V8.

Cheers
Simon

[p38arover]

Bit hard when LR sells to TATA:eek::eek::eek:

I suspect the Indians could build a better car than Solihull - the British car industry isn't known for greatness.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You guys crack me up, send me a PM and I'll respond from my Land Rover email account. Then perhaps you we can have a decent discussion.

Never had this problem on the US forums!!!

P.S. sorry for my typo!!! Well spotted!!!

Loz :)
Lawrence

I will take you at face value.

Regarding the US forums - the problem there is that they are full of Yanks. The Americans have always had a so so relationship with the Land Rover marque, sometimes they were importing and selling them but a lot of the time they didn't. Although that said there is a strong enthusiast base for Land Rovers like the Doormobiles and Carawagons in the US.

In Australia we have had an ongoing relationship with the marque from day one, even though for some years Land Rover left the dealers without Series/County/Defender models to sell for over a year at least on one occasion. And other occasions when the NADA spec vehicles had things like tuned Westlake headed Rover 6 cyl while we got detuned standard headed Rover 6 cyl.

At the end of the 1960s Land Rover had the overwhelming majority of the Australian 4 wheel drive market, British Leyland squandered that market lead by giving us things like the Series 3 in the early 1970's when we could have had the County at the same time. Land Rover had all the technology in the Range Rover but didn't translate it to the Defender style vehicle for 15 years, by that time Land Cruiser was holding the majority market share followed closely by Nissan.

At this juncture, Land Rover has an opportunity to recover some of it's traditional market share or potentially loose this faithful market sector altogether.

In these copious volumes of posts there is significant information, much of it using available technology Land Rover already has.

I'll leave it there.

Regards
Diana

P.S. Yes I have owned Land Rover products, new and old continuously since 1968.

[slug_burner]

You guys crack me up, send me a PM and I'll respond from my Land Rover email account. Then perhaps you/we can have a decent discussion.

Never had this problem on the US forums!!!

P.S. sorry for my typo!!! Well spotted!!!

Loz :)

Mate we are Australians, we are sceptical after years of having many overseas marques dump stuff on us.:cool:

[tombraider]

You guys crack me up, send me a PM and I'll respond from my Land Rover email account. Then perhaps you/we can have a decent discussion.

Never had this problem on the US forums!!!

P.S. sorry for my typo!!! Well spotted!!!

Loz :)

Mate, dont worry... This board thrives on conspiracy theorists and Luddites :cool:

[ORC1]

:confused:

I need your comments..email me if you prefer to..

Loz

[HangOver]

the British car industry isn't known for greatness.

Aww C'mon there are one or two? ;)

Land Rover - all of them
Rolls Royce
British Leyland, (just the mini)
Aston Martin
TVR
Jaguar - E-Type < styling, a gift from God
Lotus - Elise/Exige
Ariel Motor Company - Atom, (supercharged version, oh yer!)
Radical
Caterham
Westfield
MG - MGBGT
Triumph
AC
Morgan
Nissan Micra - Made in Sunderland, does that count?

[cjc_td5]

Lawrence,
For my two bobs worth....
In all of the posts here, you will see a huge dedication to the brand, whatever their shortcomings when compared to other 4WD offerings in the marketplace. It is the new buyers to the brand that you really need to capture.

Most people need a vehicle that they can use for their daily 'round town duties, but am still comfortable taking through the rough stuff on the weekend or an extended trip. The defender is too utilitarian for the former and the D3 is too "tricked up" for the latter. Please consider a model with a true RV focus, say a defender with a few more "mod cons" to keep the rest of the family happy (airbags for instance), but not fully electric everything.

A bigger impediment to LR ownership in my view is the lack of factory support outside the capital cities. Where I live is a regional city (30,000 people) in a reasonably affluent, well-established region. My closest LR dealer is 2 hours drive away (300km round trip). If the vehicle has a warranty issue I must take a day off work to go and sort it out, probably two days as they will have to order parts for later fitting. As much as I love the LR product, this will be a major factor when we upgrade our car in 3-5 years time. There are local Ford, Holden, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Subaru, Merc etc dealers to choose from that can give local dealer support to their customers. At the end of the day I do not care where I buy a vehicle from (Sydney etc), I just want some local technical support so that WHEN there is a problem, it can be sorted easily. That also goes for when travelling, it is no good being broken down with the nearest support being 1500km away!

The LR is way cheaper (and better value product) than the equivalent Toyota product. Just give it some decent support ala Toyota and you will be onto a winner.

[p38arover]

Aww C'mon there are one or two? ;)

Land Rover - all of them
Rolls Royce
British Leyland, (just the mini)
Aston Martin
TVR
Jaguar - E-Type < styling, a gift from God
Lotus - Elise/Exige
Ariel Motor Company - Atom, (supercharged version, oh yer!)
Radical
Caterham
Westfield
MG - MGBGT
Triumph
AC
Morgan
Nissan Micra - Made in Sunderland, does that count?

I was talking of the British car industry "worker" :D

[PAT303]

I can't understand why they can't be serviced,get parts through ford dealerships.They are everywhere so if you follow what everyone is on about all the stuff we want LR(Ford) already has. Pat

[rick130]

I'm glad someone didn't forget the door seals on Defender :lol2:

While we're still at it, two piece axles (axle + drive flange ) don't work where you use greased bearings. The splines fret in a short space of time, eventually failing (often in less than 40,000km) leaving you stuck. I know people that had to be recovered from the Simpson Desert because of this. It shouldn't happen.
Most knowledgeable people convert to old school oil lubed bearings by pulling the inner axle seal and using the old RTC3511 hub seal.
Either do this from the factory, or do what every other major manufacturer does world wide and use one piece flanged axles.

cheers.

[CraigE]

You guys crack me up, send me a PM and I'll respond from my Land Rover email account. Then perhaps you/we can have a decent discussion.

Never had this problem on the US forums!!!

P.S. sorry for my typo!!! Well spotted!!!

Loz :)
Loz,
As most have said, we hope you are for real. There have been some very real comments made here. The problem is for the last how many ever years LRA have taken no notice of its Australian customers bar the RR high flyer brigade. Servicing and parts availability is now non existent in most country areas. This is also the sort of bait and false thread that some other 4x4 owners from other sites will post as fake genuine forumers to get info on LR deficiencies and then post out of context on other forums. It has happened before, so forgive some of us for being a little suspicious. Normally this sort of survey / questioning come in the mail. Over the last 3-4 years there has been extensive reputation damage done to LR in Australia by lack of service and promotion of the marque.
As said the Disco needs to get back to its original concept of being a mid range 4x4 not an elite top end vehicle and the Defender needs a bit of updating without losing its heritage. I know of heaps of people who would consider one if it had air bags and a little more comfort. I did buy a new Disco in 97 as the service and deal was far better than anyone else. I have also bought a used Defender off the same dealer and also had a RRC.
I would not at present consider buying another new one due to lack off backup, even though the cars are great.
Cheers
Craig

[blitz]

You guys crack me up, send me a PM and I'll respond from my Land Rover email account. Then perhaps you/we can have a decent discussion.

Never had this problem on the US forums!!!

P.S. sorry for my typo!!! Well spotted!!!

Loz :)
perhaps this is the sadest inditment of LR in Australia, we have had so little support from the parent company that even when you have proven to be legit we are still suspicious of you. take that to the managers and smack them around the head with it, without us poor sad bloody enthusiusts LR would not be in australia any more.

I love my landy and want to buy another BUT this one is the last, I will not get rid of it as it will become a farm hack. My next 4x4 will be an OKA all the good bits without the gimmics. (have a look at an OKA)

If this sounds like a rant umm actually it is because I am so ticked off at the worlds best 4x4 being turned into a substandard vehicle due to lethargic indifference of the management, why build the bloody thing if you are not going to support it?

yours truly
a loyal but frustrated fan
Blythe

Loz

[p38arover]

If you posted on the Australian "Overlander" forum run by Overlander magazine, you'd get a torrent of replies as to why people won't buy Land Rovers - from build quality through oil leaks, electrics, lack of dealer support, etc. Some are valid, many are not. Some, e.g., oil leaks, are based on outdated products - or are they? Surely if the Japanese can make leak-free products, Britain can, too. (I've owned British cars for the past 48 years and none have been even close to leak-free - my P38A has been the best (since the engine was rebuilt here, not ex-factory).

More than a few on that forum have been been bitten in the bum by LR ownership and have moved to Japanese vehicles. Equally, many on there are repeating the tales of old and have no experience of the marque.

Now to specifics:


A full-size spare wheel is essential. The RR TDV8 wasn't even considered for the Overlander 4WD of the Year as it doesn't have a full size spare - that puts it in the urban assault vehicle class, not an off-roader! :D Carrying a second spare is not uncommon here. (On my daughter's Disco 1, I strapped a second spare to the cargo barrier in the cabin - she lived 2500km from the nearest dealer in her State - and 1600km from the nearest dealer in another. The previous nearest dealer was 990km away but he's closed). 2508km is the distance from London to Moscow, and 1600 km is the distance from London to istabul, Turkey. Would you drive your car to Moscow or Istanbul to get it serviced? We can't get service so we have to truck them these distances when they fail. Maybe LR management can't comprehend the distances unless they are explained like just have.
Lack of fuel capacity is a real problem. A second sub-tank is essential for touring - or even a weekend away doing low range work! It may not be important in Europe but here it is.
Ask owners about their view of the Disco 3 towbar and how that impacts on a fitting a rear bar and extra wheel carriers.
Acknowledging there is a problem and then doing something about would be nice, e.g. TD5 injector looms, TD5 oil pump bolts, 4.0/4.6 V8 slipped liners (ask me about that), getting LR Australia to get the dealers to do the right thing (LR Aust have told me they can't interfere in how a dealer runs his business even though the dealer doesn't update records with new lockset info, etc. Ask me how I know.) At least Nissan Australia replaced all the blown up 3.0 turbo diesels in their Patrols. Their customer service in this respect has been, by most accounts, excellent - even down to paying for accomodation and for food lost in the car fridge. LR don't even seem to have acknowledged all the failed V8s with slipped liners.
Don't put the spare wheel under the floor (like the P38A) so one has to unpack the car to get to it - ever tried it in pouring rain? Oh, you have, you are in the UK! :D I'd have preferred a vertical mount like the classic but that may have been a bit hard given the size of the wheel.
Make the bodies waterproof (OK, we'll except the Defender from that as we know LR are good but they aren't that good!). How the hell can a British car be designed to leak water in, e.g. the Discovery 1 (everywhere) and the P38A tailgate. Surely they get enough testing in your weather.
Make them serviceable. Have you every tried doing a heater core replacement on a P38A or a Disco 1 (update)? The '95 onward Disco 1 would have been easy if LR had designed a heater pipe clamp to have a retaining screw that was accessible from within the cabin insead of being up against the firewall. It was easy once I ground the screw down and drilled out the remainder of it.
Don't try to save a few pence here and there. You aren't Ford (oh!) where saving a few pennies will amount to a lot of money over the number of cars produced. You don't produce that many. I'd pay a few more dollars for a car that was better made, e.g., a cheap vinyl handbrake boot that flakes off on the P38A - a car costing A$116,000, or the finish that wears off from L322 seat trims.
Find someone who can make a headliner material that doesn't fail and sag within a few years of production. Don't ask on here how many have had to have the roof lining redone. Maybe buy the material from Australia. Our cars don't seem to suffer like Land Rovers do.

[ak]

Well Lawrence if this is for real, if you only did the following and nothing else to the next defender they would sell like hot cakes everywhere.

1. Auto option

2. TDV6 & TDV8

3. Diff locks front and rear and in that case get rid of TC.

4. Longer range tank

5. Proper recovery points

6. Retain similar shape and build in a little more durability in drive-train etc

Hell I'd even sell my Disco and buy one.

Just have a look what GM released at the latest motor show with the concept H3. " Diff locks all round and intergrated winch" it won't be long until the defender loses it's title as the most capable 4wd off the factory floor.


Lawrence if you guys are fair dinkum another good place to start (Defender I am mainly talking about here) is have a look at the Mercerdes G wagon.

[Derek Carlisle]

Lawrence, have you tried contacting the Clubs like Landrover owners club of Victoria.
My comment on the newer vehicles. Landrover seem to be cheapening everything so more breakages, axles I've heard of up to three sets replaced under warranty. The latest Disco with the spare wheel underneath, plastic everywhere. When the new vehicles come on my medium trips, the owners are forever picking up mudflaps bunper sections and other bits of expensive plastic and throughing it in the back etc. Cheers Derek

[garryc]

perhaps this is the sadest inditment of LR in Australia, we have had so little support from the parent company that even when you have proven to be legit we are still suspicious of you. take that to the managers and smack them around the head with it, without us poor sad bloody enthusiusts LR would not be in australia any more.

I love my landy and want to buy another BUT this one is the last, I will not get rid of it as it will become a farm hack. My next 4x4 will be an OKA all the good bits without the gimmics. (have a look at an OKA)

If this sounds like a rant umm actually it is because I am so ticked off at the worlds best 4x4 being turned into a substandard vehicle due to lethargic indifference of the management, why build the bloody thing if you are not going to support it?

yours truly
a loyal but frustrated fan
Blythe

Loz

Have a look at this press release and what LR say about 'customer satisfaction'. Also offering a 5 year /150,000km warranty in the richest area in the world where they wouldn't own their cars for 5 years is just an advertising ploy :mad:
ArabianBusiness.com - Middle East business, financial and industry news - Industry Press Releases - Land Rover launches new 5 year warranty program across the region (http://www.arabianbusiness.com/press_releases/detail/7668?ln=en)
My experience in Adelaide since 1994 with my 5 Discoverys was that the dealers were 9 out of 10. My experience recently in a far northern city was that the "dealer" was 1 out of 10 and ALL the Land Rover owners I spoke to thought the same. There were many sales lost because of this. Many phone calls and emails to LR "Customer Assist"(not!) did not change the situation. That dealer stuffed up a GMH and Mazda vehicles of people I knew. :(

[p38arover]

Land Rover Customer Care is an oxymoron - a bit like:

Cheap Porsche
Military Intelligence
Happily Married
American culture
Bug-free software
Hyundai Excel
Central Intelligence Agency
Criminal Lawyer
Sixteen Year Old Virgin, etc.

[Bigbjorn]

Land Rover Customer Care is an oxymoron - a bit like:

Cheap Porsche
Military Intelligence
Happily Married
American culture
Bug-free software
Hyundai Excel
Central Intelligence Agency
Criminal Lawyer
Sixteen Year Old Virgin, etc.

Ron, Ron, hand in your gown, mortar board and cane. Criminal lawyer is a tautology, not an oxymoron. Write 100 lines of your Shakespeare study play.

[Lucy]

Haven't driven a defender, but I love my 2a shorty. Currently run 2 Discoveries for Business/family. Biggest problem with them - small diameter wheels - why can't LR use the same sizes as everyone else? - better range of tyres (at least in Australia)

Would love a Defender, wife says no - not comfortable enough. I keep balking due to poor fuel range and no auto gear box - if it had these I would probably retire the V8 Disco for a new Defender.

New Discos are getting too big (and expensive), I know the new freelander is as big as the series 1/2 Discos, but it is still a freelander, and possibly not quite able enough, apart from which it seems unlikely to be catered for in terms of after market parts - ie bull bars etc.

I don't think you can really improve the Range Rovers.

[blitz]

Have a look at this press release and what LR say about 'customer satisfaction'. Also offering a 5 year /150,000km warranty in the richest area in the world where they wouldn't own their cars for 5 years is just an advertising ploy :mad:
ArabianBusiness.com - Middle East business, financial and industry news - Industry Press Releases - Land Rover launches new 5 year warranty program across the region (http://www.arabianbusiness.com/press_releases/detail/7668?ln=en)
My experience in Adelaide since 1994 with my 5 Discoverys was that the dealers were 9 out of 10. My experience recently in a far northern city was that the "dealer" was 1 out of 10 and ALL the Land Rover owners I spoke to thought the same. There were many sales lost because of this. Many phone calls and emails to LR "Customer Assist"(not!) did not change the situation. That dealer stuffed up a GMH and Mazda vehicles of people I knew. :(

If you are talking about driving directly north of Adelaide until you stop just before the ocean then you are talking about the dealer that I wouldnt give a skate board to fix let alone a mazda or mitsubishi or or or god forbid a landrover.

Blythe

[rick130]

Ron, Ron, hand in your gown, mortar board and cane. Criminal lawyer is a tautology, not an oxymoron. Write 100 lines of your Shakespeare study play.

:lol2: ROTFLMAO.
Have a mate that would agree with you there, Brian. :D

[rick130]

Yes, fuel tank capacity is inadequate.
Keep forgetting as I have a 70 litre aftermarket sill tank to supplement the meagre 79 litre main tank.
Both Patrol and Landcruiser kill Defender in this regard. Both have supplementary tanks standard.

[timaus13]

I may be biased here Laurence so sorry but please bring out a Range Rover circu 1976 2 door so I can enjoy one from new:D:D:D
cheers.

[mcrover]

Either back off on the electronics or provide built in diagnostics into the computer which will be able to reset faults without having to go to a dealer.:wasntme:

Most people whom would own these vehicals wont bother trying them selves but the few that do use them off road are really risking a lot by taking them into remote areas although most would carry sat phones these days but thats beside the point, LR dealers are few and far between here in oz so even if you could call 1 then it would be a few days traveling to get it there and back.:(

So even it were a just in an off road version which is targeting that sector of your product users.:D

The Defender should be kept no matter what, not for any other reason other than it is near bloody perfect even though I dont fit in them as standard so make them more comfy and lose the park brake lever (or at least the bruise from my left calf) and put some air between the driver and the door.:p

Something like a Disco ute would be perfect, duel cab if possible and between 110 and 130" wheels base as even though there is plenty of room in a D3, I dont think after paying $100,000+ for one I would chuck my oily ol chainsaw and wood in the back when camping like I do with my D1.:D:D

If your serious about building a vehical which will be trully the best that you can buy then do some of your testing in Oz, where the dirt roads go on for ever, the hills seem higher and steeper, you can go from freezing to stinking hot in 1 days drive and we have corragations that can swallow a small car :o

[Greylandy]

Would love a Defender, wife says no - not comfortable enough. I keep balking due to poor fuel range and no auto gear box - if it had these I would probably retire the V8 Disco for a new Defender.


700km on a tank in a TD5 Defender. Not sure how you beat that in a V8 Disco?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

... I love my landy and want to buy another BUT this one is the last, I will not get rid of it as it will become a farm hack. My next 4x4 will be an OKA all the good bits without the gimmics. (have a look at an OKA)...
yours truly
a loyal but frustrated fan
Blythe

Loz
Loz

Don't let Blythe go an buy an OKA - just go into production of a 2008 version of the Land Rover Llama.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/01/11.jpg
Image source: (http://members.tripod.com/~brianpink/trivia59.html)
Another muddle headed move by Land Rover management!

You might even get some of the market back from the Mitsubishi Canter 4 X 4


Diana

[zulu Delta 534]

I am on my third Discovery, which is my 6th Land Rover, and I am really quite happy with the vehicle, I can add extras to personalise the vehicle to fit my requirements and it does what I want better than its counterparts.... BUT this is my last of this brand unless someone somewhere can lead me to a dealer who gives a damn.
The agencies and showrooms look lovely, but that's as far as it goes. SERVICE SERVICE SERVICE please!
Glen

[harro]

Will be extremely happy to eat my words here,,,

we do have someone who could probably find out if this is a real post or not,,,,,


Hmmmm, what's wrong with land rovers?

All to convienient but !
Quite a few contributers:(

[p38arover]

Ron, Ron, hand in your gown, mortar board and cane. Criminal lawyer is a tautology, not an oxymoron. Write 100 lines of your Shakespeare study play.

You are right. I added that one at the last minute whereas I knew it was on my list of tautologies. Silly me! :confused:

A well known Sydney lawyer comes to mind. I won't mention his name here. Incisor can't afford it.

[p38arover]

Currently run 2 Discoveries for Business/family. Biggest problem with them - small diameter wheels - why can't LR use the same sizes as everyone else? - better range of tyres (at least in Australia)

??????

They are 16" like everyone else. Unless you have a D2 with 18" or a D3 with even bigger wheels.

Hmm, forget that - some of the others use 17" rims.

[p38arover]

The Defender should be kept no matter what, not for any other reason other than it is near bloody perfect even though I dont fit in them as standard so make them more comfy and lose the park brake lever (or at least the bruise from my left calf) and put some air between the driver and the door.:p


I don't think I've seen an Australian 4WD magazine NOT complain about the Defender handbrake position.

It's suchj an easy fix, you put in a handbrake from an early Freelander or a cable operated handbrake from a mid-80s on Rangie that I don't know why LR haven't done it.

[justinc]

Lawrence,
As a LR specialist repairer, I will agree reluctantly with most problems/ issues raised here previously. However, I will add a few also.

The new Defender. A total disgrace regarding current drivetrain issues you are no doubt aware of. I would MOST strongly agree to the refitting of the
8HA Salisbury differential at any cost. This problem will spell disaster for these vehicles in this and any other BIG country with remote areas travelled by LR's. I'm serious. Make this a priority.

The availability somehow of a NEW, exempt from emissions Defender model in 130DC that comes with the 300Tdi still and no ABS, TC , electric windows, alarm, or anything else electronic on board. I have people lining up to buy such a vehicle if the legislation would allow it to be released in SMALL quantities every year. ?? Possible?? Due to low numbers released, the $$ for used examples will keep the market bouyant, and the reliability in remote areas will speak for itself.

Check the replies concerning the dealer/ support network also for a wake up call, LR. This is another disgraceful state of affairs, allowing thge Japanese vehicle manufacturers to overtake the marketplace.:mad:

Regards, and YOU can E mail ME if you like aswell, on jcilrs@bigpond.net.au to av a chat about my first point...:)
I am a passionate supporter and owner of these great vehicles, I would like to see them carry on so my 13YO daughter can buy a NEW one one day with confidence.
JC

[bushrover]

I buy Defenders so I can spend $25000.00 on accessories and fix them myself when they stop. I luv em. But as I get older it would be nice to buy a new one with diff locks, long range tanks, air con that works, tougher axles, better seat adjustability, more elbow room (been booked for having my arm out the window) on board diagnostics or better still electronics that wont stuff up, road side assist (at well 23) and a decent dealership network. I have not bought a new part from an Australian Land Rover dealer in my life, they never have anything and most parts are cheaper and quicker from Blighty any way.

[loanrangie]

700km on a tank in a TD5 Defender. Not sure how you beat that in a V8 Disco?

If its on a trailer towed by the defender it will :p.

[rick130]

I don't think I've seen an Australian 4WD magazine NOT complain about the Defender handbrake position.

It's suchj an easy fix, you put in a handbrake from an early Freelander or a cable operated handbrake from a mid-80s on Rangie that I don't know why LR haven't done it.

'tis a funny thing, I hated the position of said lever at first, now, just as someone above mentioned, I use it as a leg prop and forget about it. It stops my clutch leg flopping sideways and so avoiding the dreaded left knee pain I experience when driving Japanese 4wd's.
Go figure ?

[Jojo]

Although all this here smells a bit fishy (why should a global company like Land Rover have to resort to this kind of grass root investigation and why don't we find similar threads on other LR-related forums and why do you, Lawrence, restrain from providing contact details in your signature?) I will thankfully use the opportunity to ventilate the frustration about the company who produces our most beloved vehicle...

I'll second the opinions about build quality and customer care (well, rather the lack of both) already stated here several times previously and experienced by all of us more than once I assume.
On another note, most of us came to like Land Rover as a make who made offroad vehicles (arguably the best 4x4xfar) that were suitable for being driven on roads as well. Now Land Rover is producing road vehicles with an (albeit extraordinary) offroad capability. In my (and probably not only mine) opinion this is not the true spirit anymore. I appreciate all the efforts taken to meet certain legislations and requirements but to me and many others a basic no frills working vehicle will do, especially as we as loyal Land Rover enthusiasts have a tendency to customise our vehicles anyway. Add to that a somewhat more extensively equipped model and you will cover already a fair share of the possible market.

Well, mate, I hope yo are genuine, if not, maybe another LR official locks on here by accident and will take notice of our feelings. Since we are loyal customers we certainly will stick to the brand but for my share I can only conclude that I will stick to vintage Land Rovers only in future if the development continues the way it does right now.

Cheers

[Sly]

Drove across Aust in a S111, drove around Aust in a stage one and used the hand break lever as a leg brace all the way.
Drove my Defender 9000 kms and couldn,t replace the leg stick with a rangie item quick anough.Nothing like a loooooong drive to work driver comfort.

[PAT303]

I don't now what you guys are complaining about,have any of you sat in a toyota?The bloody handbrake has to be released to get your left leg around the wheel!!!!.All the defender needs is a de-tuned TDV6,130kw will do and hypiod diffs with optional F/R diff locks and a 100 ltr tank with a spare wheel carrier as standard.That crap about being uncomfortable is just that,we run our work tojo's with 25 psi in the tyres because the back accidents,complaints were getting to high.How many of you have driven a pre 90 model cruiser,they may aswel have welded the diffs to the chassis.One thing about the new cruiser,what are you going to do that needs a 4.5 ltr engine?.I would rather have 10k between oil changes and 10ltrs per hundred economy than 10 ltrs per 5k changes and 14ltrs per hundred economy even if it means less power.My defender is about to run up 400,000km's,work out the money saved over that distance.There is a price to pay for performance,alot of the time you wouldn't need it. Pat

[camel_landy]

Well... I've asked Lawrence to supply me with some details so I can check him out but he hasn't.

Hey ho... :(

M

[camel_landy]

Ah ha... He's just PMd me. :D

Lawrence... You have incoming. ;)

M

[Rangier Rover]

:confused: I've been watching this one for a wile. I'm not sure if this chap is having us on. I think we need some convincing proof here. Hmmm, Isp"s and email arn't proof.. I have reasently met a L/R Engineer who was travelling AUS and after talking to him I am convinced we are a minority and unlikely L/R would do this!!.
I'm from agricultural sector and there is a need for a agg spec Land Rover. Low geared/ strong diffs,axles,CV's/ Simple engine(Perkins/Isuzu) that any one can service Autralia wide. Not to woried about cabin ergonomics. NOOOO ELECO GIZZMOS!That SxxT them selves. Supension lay out and live axles seem addiquit. Keep provision for Pto/Hyydrolics.
Sadly I think this guy is having a good laugh on us!:beer::Rolling::Rolling::clap2::tease:

[camel_landy]

:confused: I've been watching this one for a wile. I'm not sure if this chap is having us on. I think we need some convincing proof here. Hmmm, Isp"s and email arn't proof.. I have reasently met a L/R Engineer who was travelling AUS and after talking to him I am convinced we are a minority and unlikely L/R would do this!!.
I'm from agricultural sector and there is a need for a agg spec Land Rover. Low geared/ strong diffs,axles,CV's/ Simple engine(Perkins/Isuzu) that any one can service Autralia wide. Not to woried about cabin ergonomics. NOOOO ELECO GIZZMOS!That SxxT them selves. Supension lay out and live axles seem addiquit. Keep provision for Pto/Hyydrolics.
Sadly I think this guy is having a good laugh on us!:beer::Rolling::Rolling::clap2::tease:

This guy IS genuine... I have other means other than e-mail & ISPs. ;)

M

[RonMcGr]

This guy IS genuine... I have other means other than e-mail & ISPs. ;)

M

Now that IS a good start :D
You have confirmed that some one in LR is finally interested in what the consumer thinks about their product.

Well done :D

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Will be extremely happy to eat my words here,,,

we do have someone who could probably find out if this is a real post or not,,,,,


This guy IS genuine... I have other means other than e-mail & ISPs. ;)

M



YOU are 14 pages late
;):D

[rick130]

Defender lower rear trailing arms are too weak in bending.
Drop them on a rock and they bend like limp spaghetti. Do it badly enough and you screw the tail shaft (rear prop) off at the pinion.....

They need to be quite a bit larger in diameter. We either sleeve the OE ones or just fabricate larger diameter ones, and usually correct the angle of the chassis/arm bush at the same time.
While we are at it, the OE bush at that point is crap. The angle the arms sit at a normal ride height put undue strain on the bush, and they flog out/compress in a relatively short space of time leading to a heavy dose of rear bump steer. Have a look at the urethane bush Fulcrum/Super Pro manufacture for that spot. It's a superior design, allows greater articulation as it doesn't bind and doesn't die prematurely.

[camel_landy]

YOU are 14 pages late
;):D

No... It just took that long to get the details I needed. :tease:

M

[Frenchie]

Probably too late but there was a great business here called Maxidrive which you could have bought. Then Defenders could have come standard with decent axles and decent locking diffs. (And portals?). :cool:

[Phoenix]

Yes, I was thinking the same thing earlier in the thread Frenchie. Drop boxes on the options list, maxidrive axles as standard, diffs as an option etc etc.

[Lucy]

700km on a tank in a TD5 Defender. Not sure how you beat that in a V8 Disco?

The disco has custom tanks! Anyway, I have been looking at a replacement, but I can not bring myself to buy a toyota (either prado with 180L tanks, or troopie with the same), and for once my wife agrees with me!

[Lucy]

??????

They are 16" like everyone else. Unless you have a D2 with 18" or a D3 with even bigger wheels.

Hmm, forget that - some of the others use 17" rims.


I actually meant Wheel = Rim + Tyre combo. Tyre shopping is a pia for the Disco, all the good rubber comes in bigger sizes; plus not wanting to run foul of the law/insurance company/workcover (my vehicles are used for work, and sometimes by my employees). Besides, Discos look so much better with 32" wheels compared with standard piddling 29".

[Rangier Rover]

If L/R adress our wish list these things will cost more than 2 Humvee's!:D
Maxi Drive strength + Portal hub's:D:D

[D3Jon]

This guy IS genuine... I have other means other than e-mail & ISPs. ;)

M

I really hope this isn't a wind up, but it just seems so implausible. Lawrence if you are real then accept my apologies, but for now, here I go...

I would like to know what the proof is Camel_Landy... please tell. :) I'm happy to be wrong on this.

I think it was Incisor who said the email address checks out (used to register on this site I guess). I Can't remember if email is used to verify registration details or not here though. Maybe some more details from those 'in the know' would be good, because I can see forum members are are spending ages writing long detailed posts, I'd hate for all that effort to be in vain.

Has anyone received an email from ORC1? Don't forget of course, that an email can be easily 'sent' from anyone, hell, I could send you an email and make the recipient think it was from Buckingham Palace!! The proof would be in sending an email back to that address and then getting a reply!

I had a quick look on , DISCO3.CO.UK (http://www.disco3.co.uk) which as a lot of D3 owners will know is the world's premier D3 site, Lawrence said he especially wanted feedback on current models - so how come there's no posts from a Lawrence on there then?

Finally, in conclusion, my'Lud, I think the name gives it away ORC1,

Troll's and Orc's anyone?? :D:D:D

Info on Internet Trolls and their behaviour can be found Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)

[blitz]

I have been following this post closely and commented a couple of times, I wonder if Loz realised what a Pandora's Box he was opening - and for that matter us either. In all of the posts I have read here none actually say lets have a single post on what grieves us about LR and their product.

It is both funny and enlightening to see that we can use humor to vent our splean and enlightening to see that many of the things that irk me about Land Rover is a common feeling.

It really would be good for LR management to read and take note of what we have said about their product, I am probably dreaming because in 30 years of work never have I seen a large organisation take onboard information in this structure even though it is the most useful.

Now if Land Rover did buy maxi drive and build the defender like it should be, as has been identified here - I would take the agriculteral version - I would probably buy it instead of the OKA (which I must admit is still quite a few months off but getting closer)

Cheers all Blythe

Blythe

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I buy Defenders so I can spend $25000.00 on accessories and fix them myself when they stop. I luv em. But as I get older it would be nice to buy a new one with diff locks, long range tanks, air con that works, tougher axles, better seat adjustability, more elbow room (been booked for having my arm out the window)...
Bushrover.

The coppas over your way must actually care, you are the first person in years that I have heard being booked for an arm out the window. The reverse baseball cap wearing, hotted up rice burner driving orangutans over here have so much of their arm out the window their knuckles get gravel rash.

And Yes as I said in-post 2 we want the Parentie Land Rover wide body.


... on board diagnostics or better still electronics that wont stuff up, road side assist (at well 23) and a decent dealership network. ....
Well 23 - Oh well, I don't think that Lawrence, Land Rover Management UK or even LR Australia have ever heard of the Canning Stock Route. But trackside assist on the GSR and the Gunbarrel Hwy and even on the Maddison Line or Rig Road would be good. Better still make the LRs reliable and servicable anywhere so you can do any of the above right out of the showroom and not need the trackside assist.

Diana

[ATH]

I said I was cynical before as were many others about the motive behind this and I remain so.
I can't for the life of me think why LR UK would show any interest in owners thoughts at this time as they haven't in the past.
I suppose to an employee like Lawrence or whoever it doesn't matter who owns the company as long as they still have a job, so the Indians probably buying it won't matter, as long as production remains in the UK.
My conclusions after reading right through this is that most owners want a vehicle they can get serviced/repaired when out of the metropolitan areas in every state, and that's what I want.
The fact they I/we can't and irrespective of how I like driving a Defender (can't afford a D3 or RR at this stage but the problem would still remain the same anyway), I've virtually made my mind up to go to the "darkside" and get a Japcrap Nissan probably.
Should have done it when I sold the Td5 but thought I'd stay with the brand and get an older 300Tdi hopefully for reliability, but still the nagging doubts remain....... together with a lousy fuel capacity!
Alan.

PS. Nearly followed a mate who has a new Defender on order, but this time the head ruled the heart

[Panda]

Well, I'm going to put my 10 cents worth in.

I LOVE MY LAND ROVER!!:D

Despite being 30 years old, it performs like a purring tiger.

It's easy to clean out (with a hose;)), cheap to repair, (nice basic 6 cylinder engine, doing what it's supposed to do), easy to maintain, (just pull off the seats to get to the fuel, top of gearbox, etc), it's manual (easy to jump start), no fancy electronics to go haywire if you get it wet (it's only got 4 fuses), plenty of room (you can sleep in it if you have to), it's convertible (just take the top off), don't worry about denting it (just whack it a few times with a big hammer), Sticks to the road despite what you may put on its feet, (big tyres don't make it dip & sway all over the place), I love the colour scheme (just paint it ourselves when we feel the mood).

And there's not many places it won't go! :lol2: I'd rather drive the III instead of the Rangie any day of the week!

[isuzurover]

To add to what I said earlier. In the opinion of myself and many people, the Australian Built 1984-1990 one-ten CSW with a 3.9L Isuzu Diesel (factory fitted) was the best (coil-sprung) Land-Rover made. I will be keeping mine until LR make something which I think is comparable.

The things which made this model great:
A decent sized engine!!! 3.9L 4cyl direct injection truck diesel engine, that may be slow and rattly, but has great torque, great fuel economy, NO TIMING BELT (gears) and lasts a long time (1 million km is not abnormal). EDIT - IME it feels much nicer to drive one of these than a Tdi/TD5 due to all the torque right from idle (there is a turbo version fitted to the 6x6 landies - also OZ only).

It also had a decent strangth gearbox (LT95 or LT85).

And all the things that were better on the county - stronger trailing arms, wider spaced hub bearings, halfshafts that didn't wear out, strong CV joints!!!

It still needed a 24-spline, 6-gear (HYPOID) front diff though.

The 6-speed in the new defender is a great idea, but increase the engine size to something that can compete with the nissans and toyotas over here, and stick some decent axles under it for once.

[ak]

I really hope this isn't a wind up, but it just seems so implausible. Lawrence if you are real then accept my apologies, but for now, here I go...

I would like to know what the proof is Camel_Landy... please tell. :) I'm happy to be wrong on this.

I think it was Incisor who said the email address checks out (used to register on this site I guess). I Can't remember if email is used to verify registration details or not here though. Maybe some more details from those 'in the know' would be good, because I can see forum members are are spending ages writing long detailed posts, I'd hate for all that effort to be in vain.

Has anyone received an email from ORC1? Don't forget of course, that an email can be easily 'sent' from anyone, hell, I could send you an email and make the recipient think it was from Buckingham Palace!! The proof would be in sending an email back to that address and then getting a reply!

I had a quick look on , DISCO3.CO.UK (http://www.disco3.co.uk) which as a lot of D3 owners will know is the world's premier D3 site, Lawrence said he especially wanted feedback on current models - so how come there's no posts from a Lawrence on there then?

Finally, in conclusion, my'Lud, I think the name gives it away ORC1,

Troll's and Orc's anyone?? :D:D:D

Info on Internet Trolls and their behaviour can be found Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)


Well if this a wind-up inc and the admins can email this whole thread (before deleting it) to LR HQ so at least it has not been a complete waste of time and some good may come out of it.

[blitz]

so what is the model defender that was made in Aust with the 3.9?

[JDNSW]

so what is the model defender that was made in Aust with the 3.9?

If you are referring to isuzurover's post, it was not a Defender. It was the 110 or One-Ten, whose name was changed to Defender in 1990 after Australian production ceased. It came in 110" as cab/tray, hardtop and wagon and 120" cab/tray, or cab/chassis, and as a 6x6 110/150" cab/chassis or cab/tray. Early models had the LT95 four speed box, (to 86), later models LT85 five speed.

John

[foz.in.oz]

Lawrence,

Before I start winging I would like to say that I love Land Rovers. I like the fact that after 60 years they still look like the vehicle they started out as (Defenders at least). I like the fact that all types of people like them and drive them. I used to have a series 3 2.6l petrol which had oodles of character but the other half found to be too hot, too noisy and too bumpy. I then bought the 2004 Xtreme 110. Then she said there was no legroom due to the aircon unit being in the footwell (women).

However,
In oz the dealer network is c**p. From my experience most of them don't know their product well enough or just don't care enough about them to carry out effective timely repairs at reasonable cost. Most of them come out with statements like "we give a manufacturers specification service" but can't produce the check list of what they are supposed to do. But they do charge like they do. For example 40,000km service costs about $850. An 80,000km service cost about $1100. Accorcding to the service sheets I ordered from LR UK the only difference is the intercooler flush, the dealer I went to swore blind that the intercooler flush isn't included in the service and would cost an extra $250. On top of this the car left with an ABS fault caused by the wheel sensor not being installed correctly after they fitted new wheel bearings, the pipes and cables not being secured to the axle, loose prop shaft bolts and loose output flange nut, lubricated suspension bushes???? to stop the loose one from squeeking and a headache from the argument with the service manager over the intercooler flush which they told me was included prior to the 6 hour drive to the dealer.

Even writing and talking to Land Rover Customer care didn't do much for the headache as all they said in response was "You need to take this up with the dealer". Great, I'll just jump in my car and drive the 6 hours back there!

If you want to improve things, get a respectable dealer in every major centre. Fit All terrain tyres. Don't charge more for a cab chassis(with out abs/etc) than a fully equipped station wagon. Sell us pick ups and hard tops. Fit larger fuel tanks. Water proof the electronics correctly (ECM, wabco unit, fuse boxes) so we can wade through those flooded creeks deeper than 500mm. Allow us to buy parts overnight direct from your wharehouse so we don't have to wait for it to be sent overnight to a dealer 300 kms away first.

Land Rover still has good support from users in Australia, why not support us?:soapbox:

[camel_landy]

I would like to know what the proof is Camel_Landy... please tell. :) I'm happy to be wrong on this.

You have mail...

M

[p38arover]

Oh, on the Defender, go back to the original hub nuts that can be adjusted in the field.

[Xavie]

All this stuff is all very cute... But if it has an engine, it should have a cup holder.

The new Defender has a beer holder in the actual engine so whilst ur working on it u have somewhere to rest your stubby. I'm serious!


Xavier

[RobHay]

I just want a new Series IIA, One that looks like a Land Rover, That I'm not frightened of scratching the Duco if out bush and if I do then 5 minutes with the spray gun and shes as good as new. I can make a mess in the back and just hose it out. Pretty sure that if you did a run of Australian Military Land Rovers we would be beating a path to your door to get one. :D

[rick130]

<snip>
It still needed a 24-spline, 6-gear (HYPOID) front diff though.

<snip>

Dana 44 high pinion would be good.
Strong enough without being too large and heavy, and complement the Sals 8HA/Dana 60 rear.



Oh, on the Defender, go back to the original hub nuts that can be adjusted in the field.

Dave did mention this way back on page 1, but it doesn't hurt to reinforce it.
Using selectable spacers to set hub bearing pre-load is crazy when you may have to do a bearing change out in the scrub.
Bring back normal hub nut/lock nut arrangement.

[Disco_owner]

To add to what I said earlier. In the opinion of myself and many people, the Australian Built 1984-1990 one-ten CSW with a 3.9L Isuzu Diesel (factory fitted) was the best (coil-sprung) Land-Rover made. I will be keeping mine until LR make something which I think is comparable.

The things which made this model great:
A decent sized engine!!! 3.9L 4cyl direct injection truck diesel engine, that may be slow and rattly, but has great torque, great fuel economy, NO TIMING BELT (gears) and lasts a long time (1 million km is not abnormal). EDIT - IME it feels much nicer to drive one of these than a Tdi/TD5 due to all the torque right from idle (there is a turbo version fitted to the 6x6 landies - also OZ only).

It also had a decent strangth gearbox (LT95 or LT85).

And all the things that were better on the county - stronger trailing arms, wider spaced hub bearings, halfshafts that didn't wear out, strong CV joints!!!

It still needed a 24-spline, 6-gear (HYPOID) front diff though.

The 6-speed in the new defender is a great idea, but increase the engine size to something that can compete with the nissans and toyotas over here, and stick some decent axles under it for once.


isuzurover,

are there still many of 110's with a 3.9 4BD1's around ?for a while I've been thinking about buying one , and if L/R released it again to allow me to enjoy if from new , I will definitely put an order in tomorrow for one.

[revor]

Loz has been beating the bushes for comment on some of the forums in the States as well.. Amazing how similar the comments are! Right up until Defenders and Diesels..
In the States we'd like a new Defender! It might cost $45K but it's also not 12years old which is the olny viable selection over her.

We'd also like a Diesel... Any Diesel... TDV6, TD5, 300TDI, 3.9 Zuzu.. Of course a lot of that doesn't have a great deal to do with Land Rover but if they actually had tried it would go a long way!! Mercedes does a diesel, VW Does a diesel, Chrysler, Isuzu..

[rockley12]

G'day, hoping that this guy doesn't work for Nissan or toyota...

Like others, I wish the defender had servicability ie the ability to service parts rather than replace them. This would have to impress the enviro's as it would reduce wastage.

Long range tanks. Stronger CVs/axles and transfer cases (aka Patrol running gear). KEEP THE CURRENT SHAPE PLEASE.

A larger engine that is probably from the current family (ie the TDV8 detuned from the rangie would be perfect) - superb torque and good economy. Toyota has been copying the Brits for decades and improving on it so why can't we take a leaf out of their book and get the new defender to be as reliable as the toyotas (arguably) are ?

Please keep the beam axles and freight train chassis - I refuse to buy a 4WD with independant suspension. Keep it simple. Minimise the computer element.

Enough of my ranting...

Thanks for the opportunity to vent my opinion...

Matt:)

[blitz]

Would it be herecy to ask for Dana 60's front and rear in the defender? they are excellent diffs with a huge variety of options for them.

Blythe

[rmp]

Here's some ideas, all from personal experience in a variety of LRs. PM me for more details if required:

1. Low-profile rims. No, no, no. On what planet does a 45 profile tyre operate well offroad? Offer 18, 19, even 20 and 21 inch rims if you must, but make all your vehicles avaialble with 17s, max. And I don't want to hear about the giant brake calipers necessitating those rims. You are clever engineers, build a braking system that doesn't require rims from a pimpmobile. This is a MAJOR problem with modern Land Rovers because it affects everything; puncture probability, ride, traction, ability to air down....even overheating on sand as has happened to me in one your finest vehicles.

2. Traction control. LR used to have the best. Now Toyota with the LC200 have stepped ahead and frankly it makes the Range Rover look very average indeed. Need to step up there and soon.

3. Parkbrake. Why can't you secure a D3 or RRS downhill? Because the parkbrake only works on the rear wheels, and the centre diff unlocks at rest. Hence, only two wheels are locked. Again, on this planet, you need all FOUR wheels locked.

4. Lowering the suspension at 40kmph. No, no, no. Come out here and I will demonstrate why auto-lower is a bad idea. Make it 100. And this leads me on to my next point.

5. Control. I'm a big fan of electronics and progress. I'm not a fan of giving up driver control. For example, while I think the electronics do a great job of deciding when the centre and rear diffs should be locked, there are times when I'll want to override. For example, just see Point 3 above. Oh and Point 4. Offroad driving is unpredictable. I've recovered a car by putting it into 2WD and deliberabtely wheelspining it around. I don't want any electronics deciding I can't be doing whatever I want with the car. Have them there by all means, and I understand the LR marketing with technology and how easy they are to use, but....give us the overrides too.

6. Reslience. When the eletronics decide something is wrong, give us information so we can make a call on it ourselves. You may well end killing a customer because he couldn't get his car over a dune as the engine was in limp mode, but he might have been willing to take the risk of engine damage by revving it. His choice, not yours.

Also on that subject make the electronics field-replaceable units. ECU died? Flick in another one. Yes, I know about the cost. But you did ask the question.

Air suspension; love it. But, make it inflatable with a normal compressor should the main one fail.

7. Defender. Take the swaybars off the 110 and throw them away. Our previous models didn't have them and I'd like to understand why LR feels the MY07 needs them. Then give it at least a rear locker and better traction control. The Defender is now embarrased offroad by the Wrangler, 76 and Hummer at least. You can't claim best-in-class offroad capability for it I'm afraid.

Now LR is doing a lot of stuff right with 4WDs. Retain the driving position, the squared-off bonnet, the throttle response, low-low range gearing, nice diesels, the sequential shift autos, HDC adjustable by cruise control, recovery points (oh, add them to Defender please), excellent traction control, and Terrain Response. Turning circle excellent on new vehicles. Dynamic Response also fantastic. Make it standard!

HDC needs to be even slower on all models I've ever driven. Let me show you some rocky downhills and you will agree.

Why is a rear locker not standard on the Vogue? C'mon, it would barely dent the profit margin, surely!

Those are some initial thoughts, hope it helps.

[JDNSW]

Further to my earlier post in this thread. It mentioned some desirable changes. Now a few things NOT to change - and I refer only to the Defender, although the comments perhaps could be looked at for other models.

1. One of the things that have happened to the detriment of all those people who live in hot climates is that almost every car in the world is designed by (and for) people who live in cold climates. And in the case of the few that are not, in almost all cases the styling is slavishly copied from the majority. The biggest problem is the near horizontal, vast area of windscreen. Leave any of these parked in the sun, where the shade temperature is around 40C for half an hour, and interior temperatures of 70C are easily reached. Its all very well to counter this with good air conditioning, but you still have to get in to start it, and it will cook everything inside, from your groceries, to your camera, to the upholstery itself.
The major exception to this is the Defender, with its relatively small, near vertical glass and vents (missing on the latest version) that allow passive ventilation while remaining secure. It is still a vast improvement on anything else on the market, let down only by lousy airconditioning (can't comment on the 2007 here).

2. Door sills no higher than the floor. This is so obvious that it is amazing that the Defender is just about the only offroad vehicle to have it - allows you to just brush out the stuff out that comes in on your feet, or in the worst cases just hose it out.

3. Flat glass. This means that replacements can be manufactured easily if necessary Particularly important in places where windscreen damage is commonplace and dealers few and far between. (most of Australia)

4. Part or assembly commonality or interchangeability with earlier models. Helps to keep it going and reduces cost of spares; even if it doesn't help the manufacturer increase profits from selling spares, it reduces his costs of stocking them. Also means accessories designed for the last model still fit the next.

These points are some of the major advantages the Defender has over all their competitors - and are often forgotten by owners because they are so obvious that you are surprised and mortified if you replace your Defender (or Series) with a car that does not have these advantages.

To these I would add one point that others seem to have missed:-

The Defender badly needs to be fitted as standard with ADR compliant child restraint anchorages and three point seat belts in the middle seats.

John

[Slunnie]

Has the Defender got airbags yet? I don't think that it's acceptable not to these days.

I'm a Disco driver though, and what I would like to see is:


*** Just make them reliable and problem free ***

They generally don't have major problems, but they niggle.

[JDNSW]

Has the Defender got airbags yet? I don't think that it's acceptable not to these days.

..........

I don't believe they do - and furthermore, as far as I know, there is no space to fit them without a ground-up redesign, although advances in airbag design may improve this position, and the dropping of the vents may have also improved the situation.

Many work sites such as mines require them to be fitted to all vehicles, preventing Defenders from being used there.

I think you are right from a marketing point of view, although my understanding is that the injury rate for Defenders is well below that of vehicles fitted with airbags, even after allowing for the reduced accident rate. (This probably reflects the fact that the driver attitude is the most important safety factor, far more important than any safety features, and aggressive and impatient drivers rarely drive Defenders).

John

[Xavie]

..

PS. Nearly followed a mate who has a new Defender on order, but this time the head ruled the heart

Smart move, I think the new 'Fender is rubbish.

Xavie

[p38arover]

...and aggressive and impatient drivers rarely drive Defenders).


True. I had a V8 County.

[p38arover]

You may well end killing a customer because he couldn't get his car over a dune as the engine was in limp mode, but he might have been willing to take the risk of engine damage by revving it. His choice, not yours.


Don't make the mistake of thinking this means just losing a customer. This does mean what it says.

You'd be surpriosed how many people die in Australia from being bogged in sand (or broken down) in the outback. Not just tourists although they seem to make the headlines but Australians who know the bush and how to survive.

[MarknDeb]

Hello All

I work in the Land Rover Off Road Capability team based at the design centre at Gaydon, Warwickshire, England. Part of this role is to ensure that LRs remain to be the best off road vehicles possible, I'm currently doing a "real" customer based study into usage and would like comments about our products. I'm mainly interested in current vehicles although I'm still keen to understand any historic issues you guys have.

Thanks for your help.

Lawrence


Gday all i think some people have lost track, Loz is after good info on the off road capabilities, I think this is a great oppertunity for us Aussies to have a benificial say in what we could see as some improvements that benifit us, dont worry about the yanks they are happy aslong as it can beat a jeep and wow thats hard

[Tank]

Gday all i think some people have lost track, Loz is after good info on the off road capabilities, I think this is a great oppertunity for us Aussies to have a benificial say in what we could see as some improvements that benifit us, dont worry about the yanks they are happy aslong as it can beat a jeep and wow thats hard
Speaking of having lost track, Loz, when do we get some feedback on the info you have gleaned from this Forum.
I think every contributor to your request would REALLY like to know what yours and Land Rovers thoughts are on the info provided here.
When can we expect an answer, Regards Frank.

[rick130]

<snip>
they are happy aslong as it can beat a jeep and wow thats hard

can Defender beat, let alone match a Wrangler Rubicon in an extreme situation without breaking something ?

Jeep listened to the punters, hopefully Loz is trying to do the same.
A Rubicon is a better off road performer out of the box than a Defender.
Nomex suit now on. :D

[cucinadio]

[QUOTE=ORC1;679924]Hello All

I work in the Land Rover Off Road Capability team based at the design centre at Gaydon, Warwickshire, England. Part of this role is to ensure that LRs remain to be the best off road vehicles possible, I'm currently doing a "real" customer based study into usage and would like comments about our products. I'm mainly interested in current vehicles although I'm still keen to understand any historic issues you guys have.

Thanks for your help.


mate welcome aboard :D mate all i can say is whats with that stupid little nylon split ring holding the dizzy shaft in (surely it should be metal my god!) and WHATS!!! with the bloddy leaks my D1 leaks still ad I'm not a happy man :mad:

but all in all l love the bloody thing so l can forgive these things simply to own my pride of joy :D

cheers

matt

[Martin]

can Defender beat, let alone match a Wrangler Rubicon in an extreme situation without breaking something ?

Jeep listened to the punters, hopefully Loz is trying to do the same.
A Rubicon is a better off road performer out of the box than a Defender.
Nomex suit now on. :D

Difficult to compare these, unless you are taking about the 4 door Rubicon? Also, the Rubicon is not available in diesel, so again a difficult comparison. I have had both (TJ Wrangle modified to Rubicon spec before they imported the model), and definitely feel the Deefer is greatly superior in most situations.

[Chucaro]

Well, Lawrence posted the same message on "Disco Web" and there is a "Land Rover Off Road Capability team".

If you are still not sure:

Land Rover welcomes all questions, enquiries and customer feedback.
For test drive or brochure enquiries
You can contact Land Rover Administration on:
0800 110 110.


Or write to:
Land Rover Administration
Freepost TK494
Twickenham
TW2 5UN


For service or warranty enquiries
You can contact the Land Rover Customer Service Centre on:
08705 000 500.

Or write to:
Customer Relationship Centre
Abbey Road
Whitley
Coventry
CV3 4LH


Call centre opening hours

Land Rover Administration:
Monday - Friday: 8:30am - 6:30pm
Saturday: 9:00am - 5:00pm
Sunday & Bank Holidays: 10:00am - 4:00pm

Land Rover Customer Service:
Monday to Friday 8:30am - 5:30pm

Calls may be monitored and recorded for training or quality assurance purposes.

sent a copy of this thread to Land Rover head office with a request to acknowledge it

[gghaggis]

Here's some ideas, all from personal experience in a variety of LRs. PM me for more details if required:

1. Low-profile rims. No, no, no. On what planet does a 45 profile tyre operate well offroad? Offer 18, 19, even 20 and 21 inch rims if you must, but make all your vehicles avaialble with 17s, max. And I don't want to hear about the giant brake calipers necessitating those rims. You are clever engineers, build a braking system that doesn't require rims from a pimpmobile. This is a MAJOR problem with modern Land Rovers because it affects everything; puncture probability, ride, traction, ability to air down....even overheating on sand as has happened to me in one your finest vehicles.

2. Traction control. LR used to have the best. Now Toyota with the LC200 have stepped ahead and frankly it makes the Range Rover look very average indeed. Need to step up there and soon.

3. Parkbrake. Why can't you secure a D3 or RRS downhill? Because the parkbrake only works on the rear wheels, and the centre diff unlocks at rest. Hence, only two wheels are locked. Again, on this planet, you need all FOUR wheels locked.

4. Lowering the suspension at 40kmph. No, no, no. Come out here and I will demonstrate why auto-lower is a bad idea. Make it 100. And this leads me on to my next point.

5. Control. I'm a big fan of electronics and progress. I'm not a fan of giving up driver control. For example, while I think the electronics do a great job of deciding when the centre and rear diffs should be locked, there are times when I'll want to override. For example, just see Point 3 above. Oh and Point 4. Offroad driving is unpredictable. I've recovered a car by putting it into 2WD and deliberabtely wheelspining it around. I don't want any electronics deciding I can't be doing whatever I want with the car. Have them there by all means, and I understand the LR marketing with technology and how easy they are to use, but....give us the overrides too.

6. Reslience. When the eletronics decide something is wrong, give us information so we can make a call on it ourselves. You may well end killing a customer because he couldn't get his car over a dune as the engine was in limp mode, but he might have been willing to take the risk of engine damage by revving it. His choice, not yours.

Also on that subject make the electronics field-replaceable units. ECU died? Flick in another one. Yes, I know about the cost. But you did ask the question.

Air suspension; love it. But, make it inflatable with a normal compressor should the main one fail.

7. Defender. Take the swaybars off the 110 and throw them away. Our previous models didn't have them and I'd like to understand why LR feels the MY07 needs them. Then give it at least a rear locker and better traction control. The Defender is now embarrased offroad by the Wrangler, 76 and Hummer at least. You can't claim best-in-class offroad capability for it I'm afraid.

Now LR is doing a lot of stuff right with 4WDs. Retain the driving position, the squared-off bonnet, the throttle response, low-low range gearing, nice diesels, the sequential shift autos, HDC adjustable by cruise control, recovery points (oh, add them to Defender please), excellent traction control, and Terrain Response. Turning circle excellent on new vehicles. Dynamic Response also fantastic. Make it standard!

HDC needs to be even slower on all models I've ever driven. Let me show you some rocky downhills and you will agree.

Why is a rear locker not standard on the Vogue? C'mon, it would barely dent the profit margin, surely!

Those are some initial thoughts, hope it helps.

I was going to contribute something to this thread regarding the newer LR models, but I think this post covers everything better than I could. Well done, and I hope Loz takes note!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Chucaro]

I can not comprehend why Land Rover is going to this trouble of making public all the possible problems that their products have. If they are genuine why do not send to the administrators an official letter with a template with questions to fill by the members in privacy. The AURLO administrators can send the template by email to all the members and then the members can reply directly to land Rover head office.
Does not require a rocket science engineering to work out what it is wrong with the product, just look at the sales of after market components like diff locks, etc to see what the Land Rover owners like to see in the vehicles.
If they like to be competitive, stop being arrogant and have a look what Jeep done with the specs of the new models and make the Defender 90 with similar standard inclusions here in Oz.
My suggestion: make available for Oz a Defender model reliable and to army specs without luxuries and have a look at the improvements that the Land Rover explorers community done to their vehicles for long trips to remote areas. The information is all there.

It is funny that Land Rover is looking now for our opinions after loosing the market to Mercedes Benz with the army vehicles ;)

[Frenchie]

It is funny that Land Rover is looking now for our opinions

I don't think Land Rover as a company are looking for our opinions. It sounds more like an individual who is doing this off his own bat in an effort to do his job. Good on him. :cool:

[JDNSW]

I don't think Land Rover as a company are looking for our opinions. It sounds more like an individual who is doing this off his own bat in an effort to do his job. Good on him. :cool:

I think that is a very perceptive comment, and probably describes the situation.

John

[Chucaro]

If that is so, I think that the senior Marketing Manager is not going to be very impressed with the public exposure :eek:
Studies like this are done by marketing annalist which generate a professional report without damage the client.
The information in this thread is very good for the journalist that looks for something to attract the readers and advertising by the competition.

[rick130]

If that is so, I think that the senior Marketing Manager is not going to be very impressed with the public exposure :eek:
Studies like this are done by marketing annalist which generate a professional report without damage the client.
The information in this thread is very good for the journalist that looks for something to attract the readers and advertising by the competition.

and why did you send a copy of this thread to Head Office when if you'd read it you'd see a few people have already confirmed the bloke is genuine ?? :confused:

[p38arover]

and why did you send a copy of this thread to Head Office when if you'd read it you'd see a few people have already confirmed the bloke is genuine ?? :confused:

Ditto. Sending it to Head Office may have negative ramifications for Loz.

[BigJon]

If that is so, I think that the senior Marketing Manager is not going to be very impressed with the public exposure :eek:
Studies like this are done by marketing annalist which generate a professional report without damage the client.
The information in this thread is very good for the journalist that looks for something to attract the readers and advertising by the competition.

None of the information in this thread is new or groundbreaking. It is all out there, this is just one convenient place for Loz to find it.

I don't think there is undue public exposure here either. Realistically, the average (note: average, not exceptional) new LR buyer does not frequent forums such as this one.

Studies done by marketing analysts generating proffesional reports that don't damage the client are an **** kissing waste of time and money (IMHO). What you want are answers, not expensive brown nosing.

[Chucaro]

and why did you send a copy of this thread to Head Office when if you'd read it you'd see a few people have already confirmed the bloke is genuine ?? :confused:

I did not sent any copy to head office and do not intent to do it so. It is not up to me to do it so.
Which gain have Land Rover if a magazine or many of them print an article about the views of the owners of Land Rover vehicles expressed in this forum :eek: ?
Simple, just loose more customers.
Just remember that the majority of purchaser of vehicles are going for what the media or motorist associations are saying.
It is sad but many people buy a Landcruiser because John Laws said so :(
If you do not believe that advertising have an effect in the decision of what the public are going to purchasing then it is not point to continue this discussion.
In any case lets wait and see what happens in the future. I sincerely hope that the outcome will be positive.

[p38arover]

You wrote:


sent a copy of this thread to Land Rover head office with a request to acknowledge it

Now you say:


I did not sent any copy to head office and do not intent to do it so. It is not up to me to do it so.

I'm confused. :confused:

[p38arover]

Ahh. Hang on. Seeing the two sentences together clarifies it. The incorrect tense totally changes the message.

You meant to write "send" but wrote "sent".

Now it makes sense. The first was a suggestion of what should be done, not a a statement of what you had done.

[Quarks]

Ron, I think that might be the explanation. :)

As for the public exposure of this thread, it is currently the 4th most viewed thread in General Chat!! :eek::eek:

[Chucaro]

Ahh. Hang on. Seeing the two sentences together clarifies it. The incorrect tense totally changes the message.

You meant to write "send" but wrote "sent".

Now it makes sense. The first was a suggestion of what should be done, not a a statement of what you had done.

Sorry mate :( my spanglish :(.
You can be sure that I never going to do so unethical thing of sending an email like that. It is not me :)
I can see now why some members hit the roof :D (bloody Chucaro !)

[p38arover]

I can see now why some members hit the roof :D (bloody Chucaro !)

Bloody oath! :D:D

[rick130]

I can see now why some members hit the roof :D (bloody Chucaro !)

Bloody oath! :D:D

nice forensic grammar work, Ron. :D

[abaddonxi]

nice forensic grammar work, Ron. :D

Ron Beckett: Forensic Grammarian

I think there's a TV show in that.:D:D

Cheers
Simon

[tombraider]

Don't make the mistake of thinking this means just losing a customer. This does mean what it says.

You'd be surpriosed how many people die in Australia from being bogged in sand (or broken down) in the outback. Not just tourists although they seem to make the headlines but Australians who know the bush and how to survive.

I'd be surprised to Ron...

The number isnt that high.....

And broken down is 99% of the time a mechanical (not electronic) issue.

[rick130]

Bloody oath! :D:D


Ron Beckett: Forensic Grammarian

I think there's a TV show in that.:D:D

Cheers
Simon

So do you reckon you could work a script out of that Si ?


'Scene'
'Camera pans slowly across office as Ron taps away at his keyboard, a half empty bottle of Grange Hermitage and a half full glass of same sitting on the desk b beside him. Ron coolly edits the spelling in one of Dobbo's more outlandish posts .....'

:twisted:

[justinc]

So do you reckon you could work a script out of that Si ?


'Scene'
'Camera pans slowly across office as Ron taps away at his keyboard, a half empty bottle of Grange Hermitage and a half full glass of same sitting on the desk b beside him. Ron coolly edits the spelling in one of Dobbo's more outlandish posts .....'while clicking his tongue theatrically, as only an AULRO supermoderator can.'
:twisted:

:D:D:DThis could become an 'add to it' thread / story Rick!!!

JC

[p38arover]

:D:D:DThis could become an 'add to it' thread / story Rick!!!

JC

but throws his hands up in horror at a post by [fill in name of choice]!

[Chucaro]

but throws his hands up in horror at a post by [fill in name of choice]!

:angel: me ?

[p38arover]

:angel: me ?

No! :D

[ORC1]

Thanks for all your comments and PMs, they are very helpful. :D I will get around to replying to them all in turn, just give me a few days to clear my inbox.

I would really like some more comments on Terrain Response on the newer vehicles, let me know what you think about it's function.

Cheers

Loz

[rangieman]

Thanks for all your comments and PMs, they are very helpful. :D I will get around to replying to them all in turn, just give me a few days to clear my inbox.

I would really like some more comments on Terrain Response on the newer vehicles, let me know what you think about it's function.

Cheers

Loz
As a LandRover technician he only wants to hear about the new fandangled gagets that work , not all the other faults they have and cant be bothered or interested to fix;):D:p:wasntme:

[Chucaro]

As a LandRover technician he only wants to hear about the new fandangled gagets that work , not all the other faults they have and cant be bothered or interested to fix;):D:p:wasntme:

You never know, may be Land Rover is going to start building the County/Isuzu again for the AURLO members with Truetrac front & back :angel:

[Pedro_The_Swift]

You never know, may be Land Rover is going to start building the County/Isuzu again for the AURLO members with Truetrac front & back :angel:

and sell all of ten,,,,:wasntme::p:D

[Phoenix]

Terrain response seems to generally be pretty well liked.

The only thing I would change would be the ability to lock the diffs manualy, and for the hill decent control to either have a slower speed, or be set to a much lower speed.

[ORC1]

:(
As a LandRover technician he only wants to hear about the new fandangled gagets that work , not all the other faults they have and cant be bothered or interested to fix;):D:p:wasntme:

This couldn't be further from the truth, I am interested in all your issues but as you can hopefully appreciate I can't do much about the marketing situations. I would like your comments to continue as they are very useful, but obviously your comments on the newer vehicles will give me more ammo!!;)

Cheers

Loz

[p38arover]

It's a pity the best 4WD is let down by

Salesmen who really have no interest (see http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/50055-land-rover-dealers-evil.html)
Lack of dealers (see http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/32326-where-did-all-nsw-dealers-go.html) (now down to about 35 for the whole country - see Land Rover AU - Locate A Dealer (http://www.landrover.com.au/au/en/Company/locate_a_dealer_bsc.asp) )
Build quality (see http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/50939-defender-brisbane-motor-show.html)You start to get the idea why LR isn't selling well in Australia. Toyota probably sell more of one model 4WD in a month than LR in total in a year.

For sales figures for 2007, see http://www.autonews.net.au/static/vfacts/2007dec/suv.pdf (substitute appropriate period in the URL for other months/years.

[JDNSW]

It's a pity the best 4WD is let down by

Salesmen who really have no interest (see http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/50055-land-rover-dealers-evil.html)
Lack of dealers (see http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/32326-where-did-all-nsw-dealers-go.html) (now down to about 35 for the whole country - see Land Rover AU - Locate A Dealer (http://www.landrover.com.au/au/en/Company/locate_a_dealer_bsc.asp) )
Build quality (see http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/50939-defender-brisbane-motor-show.html)You start to get the idea why LR isn't selling well in Australia. Toyota probably sell more of one model 4WD in a month than LR in total in a year.

For sales figures for 2007, see http://www.autonews.net.au/static/vfacts/2007dec/suv.pdf (substitute appropriate period in the URL for other months/years.

If Landrover is serious about manufacturing a serious off road or even touring vehicle, they must design it so that emergency repairs and maintenance are not dependent on dealers, unless a dealer network can be maintained in all markets.

Rover was able to do this in the 1940's (although certainly in Australia they had a far better dealer network then), and although the vehicles are necessarily far more complex than they were then, this does not necessarily make the task more difficult, as there are tools available now that were not available even a only few years ago (e.g. real on board diagnostics for example).

John

[Xavie]

If Landrover is serious about manufacturing a serious off road or even touring vehicle, they must design it so that emergency repairs and maintenance are not dependent on dealers, unless a dealer network can be maintained in all markets.


John

to me it's obvious that L.R. are not serious about a real off-roader after seeing their service and reliability of my new model Defender that Land rover are not serious about it. owned it for 3-4 months and has been in workshop for probably close to half the time now and never fixed.

Xav

[Chucaro]

to me it's obvious that L.R. are not serious about a real off-roader after seeing their service and reliability of my new model Defender that Land rover are not serious about it. owned it for 3-4 months and has been in workshop for probably close to half the time now and never fixed.

Xav

Not wonder that the Aus arm forces are going to Mercedes Benz :eek:
Mate you should ask for some compensation or go to current affairs :mad:
This is not bad service this is an appalling behavior by LR.
Why you do not ask ORC1 in this forum what he is going to do ?
If nothing happens, then we know for sure the LR position.
Cheers

[Frenchie]

to me it's obvious that L.R. are not serious about a real off-roader after seeing their service and reliability of my new model Defender that Land rover are not serious about it. owned it for 3-4 months and has been in workshop for probably close to half the time now and never fixed.

Xav

What problems have you had? :eek:

[tombraider]

Not wonder that the Aus arm forces are going to Mercedes Benz :eek:
Mate you should ask for some compensation or go to current affairs :mad:
This is not bad service this is an appalling behavior by LR.
Why you do not ask ORC1 in this forum what he is going to do ?
If nothing happens, then we know for sure the LR position.
Cheers

The armed forces had no choice really... LR didnt tender...

The contract was supply of ALL types of gear, from "small to Mog" sorta deal...

As for problems with a brand new defender...

The golden rule - Don't buy the 1st release of ANY vehicle

[tombraider]

Why you do not ask ORC1 in this forum what he is going to do ?
If nothing happens, then we know for sure the LR position.
Cheers

Mate, get realistic!!!!

He's an engineer...

He has NO influence on PAG Australia....

And has NO influence on Sales and Marketing....

You may remember Holden & Ford have also had major issues with 1st release vehicles.... Lots of dealer time to fix them too...

Like it or not, the motoring public of the world become Beta testers on all new vehicle runs.. Regardless of OEM production testing....

[Lotz-A-Landies]

It's a pity the best 4WD is let down by ...
Lack of dealers (see http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/32326-where-did-all-nsw-dealers-go.html) (now down to about 35 for the whole country - see Land Rover AU - Locate A Dealer (http://www.landrover.com.au/au/en/Company/locate_a_dealer_bsc.asp) ....
Ron

What is the point of ORC1 attempting to improve the Terrain Response and other technology if there are now 20% less dealers in the entire country than there was just in NSW during the 1950's.

Even in my home town of Nowra on the coastal strip of NSW 100 miles from Sydney, I have to travel nearly 60 miles to get to my first LR dealer.

Diana

[Scallops]

As for problems with a brand new defender...

The golden rule - Don't buy the 1st release of ANY vehicle

Not that I disagree in with this sentiment in general - but I have 9,0000km on my new Defender - no problems.

The 07 Fender has been out for a year now (what a revelation!) - and on all forums I have found- well, the number of issues doesn't appear to be huge.

I'm the first to accept I'm a novice in Land Rover Land - but my experience has been nothing short of majestic with my new car. :)

I guess my point is - I'm just a bit surprised at the negativity toward the LR product in a general sense. :(

[tombraider]

I guess my point is - I'm just a bit surprised at the negativity toward the LR product in a general sense. :(

No, I'm surprised by the complaining too...

If I can comfortably sit my 6' 1" x VERY VERY fat **** / gut etc in a defender and drive it 900kms per week comfortably then I dont get the issue...

If I wanted a wider / longer / smoother / WHATever....

I'd look at another vehicle choice.... Simple....

I love the brand, I love the technology etc.... But if none suited my needs I'd look at other offerings...

In my case, the D1 did the job, then the Defender did it better....
Now the Disco 2 is what I need.... Does everything needed for my lifestyle and where I live and choose to travel...

Will a D3 or RRS cut it in the near future? Who knows.... The 2012 defender is on my mind....

Will analyse my needs when the time comes....

As for oil leaks etc... Never been an issue that wasnt a product of a BS Adelaide Dealership...

None of the Landies I've owned leaked until the stealer had a play....:(

[Taipan]

My view is LR Australia is the biggest problem here. (ie Sales, Advertising, Services, and Spare Parts)

This is why in Aus there are many importing companys (to bypass LR Aus) and other aftermark 4wd stores.
For example the bull bars LR sell are for UK, safer for poeple walking but here are crap for cattle & kangeroos.

You should get the dealers to smitted a history sheet (like service log) covering mods and after market equipment
owners have fitted and send this info back to LR HQ when dealers carry out services.
And use the information for these sales areas/country.

[Chucaro]

Mate, get realistic!!!!

He's an engineer...

He has NO influence on PAG Australia....

And has NO influence on Sales and Marketing....

You may remember Holden & Ford have also had major issues with 1st release vehicles.... Lots of dealer time to fix them too...

Like it or not, the motoring public of the world become Beta testers on all new vehicle runs.. Regardless of OEM production testing....

I am realistic, in John Deere the service department and engineering
have a lot to say in how marketing operates. That is the way that a company should run because the mistakes of one department affect the rest.
I have experience with German companies and they operate like John Deere.
You have to be realistic, $ 54000 does not grow on trees and is the right of any consumer to expect the product to be finished and serviced properly.
I like Land Rover products but just because I like them I am not going to accept crap service or bad manufacturing.
They expect you as an owner to comply with a strict service to be able to claim warranty problems, well, you as a consumer have the right to expect that when the vehicle is delivered it already went through a strict quality control and delivery inspection.

[rovers4]

My Defender is a good unit 4wd wise, but there are things that drive me mad.
Some of them may have been sorted on the new model, or made even worse.

I want two batteries, large N70 size, fitted N-S under passenger seat, without the annoying roll floor.
The entire space under driver's seat available for storage or to house radio gear. That is multiple radios, around five is what I run to..
The computer to go in RH front guard area - you call it a wing.
The rain gutters must stay, but be a bit wider so that the rain can get past the roof bar legs and not run in behind the roof lining to end up on your legs.
The gutters to wrap around the windscreen "A" pillar so that water runs down away from an open door.
The front air vents to actually seal when closed.
Cool air for the leg area would be good.
All doors to seal aganst water ingress when fording rivers, up to bonnet level.
No holes in under-seat storage areas - battery case to be sealable when fording, vented under normal use.
The standard body lift jack to be replaced with a bottle jack, with under rear seat or in engine bay storage - LH wing?
Tool/parts storage also in both front wings.
Bigger fuel tanks, plus provision for water tanks under rear guards.
Lockers under side sills.
A stiffer rear edge to the bonnet.
A gas strut to assist with the bonnet, especially when carrying a second spare up there.
Long side steps that let you put your shoe/boot in under side skirt.
Taller and therefore better AM/FM radio antenna.
Stronger rear door to absorb spare wheel bounce/ or a 4 point mount rear carrier with articulation so that you can open the carrier past a caravan/boat nose.
Any computer to have either a limp-home mode or to have dummy plugs to bypass problematic sensors.
No fuel pumps to be sited inside a fuel tank.
Incorporate proper and substantial mounting lugs just in front of the steering damper for front tow bar when and if required.
The Australian wiring loom differs from that published in the manual. Provide details, and full drawings
Upgrade the fuses and wiring for the lighting to allow trailer and extra rear fittings. N.B. Australian vehicles do not use repeater relays.
Install relays in all front headlight circuits.
Upgrade the headlight switches - the Defender switches fail.
Give more leg room to the passengers, both in front and rear.
Let the rear seat poassengers see out the front without crouching in their seats.
We need quicker acting heaters.
We need more power - the 300tdi is just way too slow on the open road.

That will do for starters.


Rovers4

[xrayxray]

Don't know if it has been mentioned before however there is a lack of good high capacity towing vehicles in Australia,basically if you want a large boat or horse float which there are many, all you have is Ford F250 or import chevs,their are also Landcruisers which are popular because they have the power to tow this is something a Defender is lacking in.
If land Rover gave an option of motor and transmission upgrades the Defender range would become a very popular towing vehicle.
As it stands the Defender wagon has a Towing capacity of 4 tons but with a motor that is lacking in power to tow this weight long distances this can be a safety issue.
The Defender 130 with a load capacity of over 1 ton in the back and 3.5 ton giving a combined legal towing capacity of over 4.5 tons this would make an ideal rig to pull a 5th wheel trailer which are very popular amongst the horse riding community and other sports.
If land Rover won't upgrade there drivelines to suit there towing capacity that they have given to there vehicles then they should be forced to reduce the vehicles towing capacity,one that is more suitable to the power output of the engine.
Cheers Mickey.

[Blknight.aus]

My Defender is a good unit 4wd wise, but there are things that drive me mad.
Some of them may have been sorted on the new model, or made even worse.

I want two batteries, large N70 size, fitted N-S under passenger seat, without the annoying roll floor.
The entire space under driver's seat available for storage or to house radio gear. That is multiple radios, around five is what I run to.. (wont work too much heat loading)

The computer to go in RH front guard area - you call it a wing.(its on the firewall in the 07)

The rain gutters must stay, but be a bit wider so that the rain can get past the roof bar legs and not run in behind the roof lining to end up on your legs.
The gutters to wrap around the windscreen "A" pillar so that water runs down away from an open door.
The front air vents to actually seal when closed. (mine do and there isnt any on some counties and the 07)
Cool air for the leg area would be good.

All doors to seal aganst water ingress when fording rivers, up to bonnet level.(Mine do)

No holes in under-seat storage areas - battery case to be sealable when fording, vented under normal use. (not legal battery spaces must be vented + if you seal them your radios that you wantto put in will cook

The standard body lift jack to be replaced with a bottle jack, with under rear seat or in engine bay storage - LH wing?
Tool/parts storage also in both front wings.(did you want to install the tardis chip there as well?)

Bigger fuel tanks, plus provision for water tanks under rear guards.
Lockers under side sills.(Perhaps here would be a better space for the tardis chip)
A stiffer rear edge to the bonnet.
A gas strut to assist with the bonnet, especially when carrying a second spare up there.
Long side steps that let you put your shoe/boot in under side skirt.(that will kill off your ramp over angles)

Taller and therefore better AM/FM radio antenna.
Stronger rear door to absorb spare wheel bounce/ or a 4 point mount rear carrier with articulation so that you can open the carrier past a caravan/boat nose.(Just how short is your draw bar)


Any computer to have either a limp-home mode or to have dummy plugs to bypass problematic sensors. Only achievable on some sensors and the computer will ignore them anyway
No fuel pumps to be sited inside a fuel tank.(why not, best place for em an acess panel or side mounting them would be better)

Incorporate proper and substantial mounting lugs just in front of the steering damper for front tow bar when and if required.

The Australian wiring loom differs from that published in the manual. Provide details, and full drawings
Upgrade the fuses and wiring for the lighting to allow trailer and extra rear fittings. N.B. Australian vehicles do not use repeater relays.The existing harness is capable of dealing with any trailer you can legally tow
Install relays in all front headlight circuits.
Upgrade the headlight switches - the Defender switches fail.
Give more leg room to the passengers, both in front and rear.
Let the rear seat poassengers see out the front without crouching in their seats.
We need quicker acting heaters.
We need more power - the 300tdi is just way too slow on the open road.(get a TD5/transit powered defender)

That will do for starters.


Rovers4

I know Im picking But some of thie things your asking for are either impossable or mutually exclusive..... my responses are in blue

[discowhite]

I know Im picking But some of thie things your asking for are either impossable or mutually exclusive..... my responses are in blue

besides that if LR were to do a defender of the line like that WHAT THE HELL WOULD THE AVERAGE JOE MODIFY:eek:

cheers phil

[ak]

besides that if LR were to do a defender of the line like that WHAT THE HELL WOULD THE AVERAGE JOE MODIFY:eek:

cheers phil

That's true Phill, all I'd like LR to do when designing the new defender is have a close look at the Merc G wagon. 3 factory lockers, and so on.

[vnx205]

Since I couldn't find one in the first few pages or in the last few, I'll offer a dissenting opinion. I might have missed a few pages in the middle.

While I accept that changes have to be made to meet emissions and safety regulation, can't see much point in changing anything.

Land Rovers are already sufficiently capable for my needs and some of us would like them to be affordable.

I can't see me changing the habit of a lifetime and buying a new vehicle, but even the second hand price of the Land Rover some people want built would be ridiculously high.

I want a capable, affordable, reliable vehicle. I don't want Land Rover to build a vehicle I can't afford, even second hand, with a whole lot of features I don't need.

If someone else wants those features, let them pay the extra to add them.

Have some of the people who are advocating all the bells and whistles stopped to think what they would cost?

If you want those features, you pay for them, but don't force me to.

[Blknight.aus]

I like that....

itd be a great conversation at the dealers..

yes sir that landrover is the base version (and your looking at a series II) would sir like to see the options list?

the optional extras list would be along the lines of


passangers seat (supplied with seatbelts)
wind shield
windshield wipers (requires previous item)
fuel gauge
volts gaug
oil pressure gauge
roof
roof that doesnt leak (tell me you didnt actuallythink this was available)
rear seats (supplied with seat belts)
windows
second spare
front winch (specify elec, pto or hydraulic)
rear winch (specify elec pto or hydraulic)
on board engine driven air comressor
CTIF (requires previous item)
padded dash
sound insulation
radio (previous item is reccomended)
tow pack
rear locker
front locker
abs
TC
hand wich
cargo barrier (roof +windows option recommended)
HDC
cloth seat covers
Leather seats
carpet
12v automotive fridge
dual batteries
tri batteries
quad batteries (reccomended for extended use of elec winch
larger fuel tank
long range fuel tank
2 long range fuel tanks
the Oh my god ITs never going to stop filling 1000l fuel tank
Hd suspension (required with previous option)
uhf 2way radio
AM 2 way radio
AM radio
Fm radio
VHF radio
Hf Radio
LF radio
ELF radio
cassete player
cd player
Sat phone
GPS system
enough antennea to make people think you ticked at least 1/2 of the previous 12 items
on board entertainment (single dual tri or quad screens)
(if you tick all previous Radio/entertainent at least dual batteries are reccomended)
Aero dynamics package (no sorry we're just kidding this isnt available)
AT/MT tyres
Bead lockers
runflats
snow tyres
snow chains
Really big tyres
monster truck conversion
The "crap the rubber alone is too tall to get into undercover parking" tyres (needs previous option)
Tracks (no we're not kidding we've done it before)
31 inch Bling bling shiney rims with 1 inch licorice strip tyres (if you tick this we are not going to take you seriously ever) (and we'll double the price becuase your a gullible fool with more money than brains) (yes even if you only have $20 and are morgagin a house to pay for this)
Airbags
Side entry protection
reliable Lucas Electrics (yes you got us this Item still isnt available, we'll let you know when it is)
the "its a landrover, of course it can recover your toyata" stickers
Instruction booklet on the LR wave thing you'll have to get used to if your trading in a toyota
6x6 conversion
Front impact protection (previously sold as a bull bar)
Rear impact protection (previously sold as a tow hitch)
Windy windows
Electric windows
Tdi diesel
TD5 diesel
Isuzu 3.9 diesel
Hearing protection (seriously reccomended with that last engine)(yes even if you ticked sound insulation)(no we're not kidding)
a V8 (the arabs would like to thank you for your ongoing pledge to finance them
the bigger V8 (you do like the arabs dontcha)
with LPG (ok maybe not so much)
a 4 speed gearbox
a tough 4 speed gearbox
the 5 speed gearbox
the strong 5 speed gearbox
the really strong 5 speed gearbox
a 3 speed auto
a 4 speed auto
a 5 speed auto
a 6 speed auto
(the previous 4 options come with a free $200 shopping voucher for @ dresses'r'us)
power steeing
power assisted brakes
disc brakes front (requires previous option)
disc brakes rear (requires both previous options)
Enough brakes to stop a freight train
disc brake conversion for the park brake
snorkle
exhaust brake
tinted windows
door locks
side mirrors
internal rear view mirror (reccomended with any of the autos so you can see to put your make up on)
a heater
air con (not just opening the windows)
air con that works
rust prevention system (this is also included free as a segmented sequential upgrade over time)





The extra heavy duty, all the bells and whistles, ultra tall on oversized rubber 8x8x8 conversion with the airbag suspension and CTIF pressure drop onto runflats so it still makes it into carparks conversion. (tick this one if youve allready ticked all the boxes above excluting any of the autos and the bling bling rims)


anything else we didnt think of.

[djam1]

Maybe there should be a waterproof option for the Defender although some long term Defender drivers would go into shock if it rained and they didnt get wet feet.

[ak]

I like that....

itd be a great conversation at the dealers..

yes sir that landrover is the base version (and your looking at a series II) would sir like to see the options list?

the optional extras list would be along the lines of


passangers seat (supplied with seatbelts)
wind shield
windshield wipers (requires previous item)
fuel gauge
volts gaug
oil pressure gauge
roof
roof that doesnt leak (tell me you didnt actuallythink this was available)
rear seats (supplied with seat belts)
windows
second spare
front winch (specify elec, pto or hydraulic)
rear winch (specify elec pto or hydraulic)
on board engine driven air comressor
CTIF (requires previous item)
padded dash
sound insulation
radio (previous item is reccomended)
tow pack
rear locker
front locker
abs
TC
hand wich
cargo barrier (roof +windows option recommended)
HDC
cloth seat covers
Leather seats
carpet
12v automotive fridge
dual batteries
tri batteries
quad batteries (reccomended for extended use of elec winch
larger fuel tank
long range fuel tank
2 long range fuel tanks
the Oh my god ITs never going to stop filling 1000l fuel tank
Hd suspension (required with previous option)
uhf 2way radio
AM 2 way radio
AM radio
Fm radio
VHF radio
Hf Radio
LF radio
ELF radio
cassete player
cd player
Sat phone
GPS system
enough antennea to make people think you ticked at least 1/2 of the previous 12 items
on board entertainment (single dual tri or quad screens)
(if you tick all previous Radio/entertainent at least dual batteries are reccomended)
Aero dynamics package (no sorry we're just kidding this isnt available)
AT/MT tyres
Bead lockers
runflats
snow tyres
snow chains
Really big tyres
monster truck conversion
The "crap the rubber alone is too tall to get into undercover parking" tyres (needs previous option)
Tracks (no we're not kidding we've done it before)
31 inch Bling bling shiney rims with 1 inch licorice strip tyres (if you tick this we are not going to take you seriously ever) (and we'll double the price becuase your a gullible fool with more money than brains) (yes even if you only have $20 and are morgagin a house to pay for this)
Airbags
Side entry protection
reliable Lucas Electrics (yes you got us this Item still isnt available, we'll let you know when it is)
the "its a landrover, of course it can recover your toyata" stickers
Instruction booklet on the LR wave thing you'll have to get used to if your trading in a toyota
6x6 conversion
Front impact protection (previously sold as a bull bar)
Rear impact protection (previously sold as a tow hitch)
Windy windows
Electric windows
Tdi diesel
TD5 diesel
Isuzu 3.9 diesel
Hearing protection (seriously reccomended with that last engine)(yes even if you ticked sound insulation)(no we're not kidding)
a V8 (the arabs would like to thank you for your ongoing pledge to finance them
the bigger V8 (you do like the arabs dontcha)
with LPG (ok maybe not so much)
a 4 speed gearbox
a tough 4 speed gearbox
the 5 speed gearbox
the strong 5 speed gearbox
the really strong 5 speed gearbox
a 3 speed auto
a 4 speed auto
a 5 speed auto
a 6 speed auto
(the previous 4 options come with a free $200 shopping voucher for @ dresses'r'us)
power steeing
power assisted brakes
disc brakes front (requires previous option)
disc brakes rear (requires both previous options)
Enough brakes to stop a freight train
disc brake conversion for the park brake
snorkle
exhaust brake
tinted windows
door locks
side mirrors
internal rear view mirror (reccomended with any of the autos so you can see to put your make up on)
a heater
air con (not just opening the windows)
air con that works
rust prevention system (this is also included free as a segmented sequential upgrade over time)





The extra heavy duty, all the bells and whistles, ultra tall on oversized rubber 8x8x8 conversion with the airbag suspension and CTIF pressure drop onto runflats so it still makes it into carparks conversion. (tick this one if youve allready ticked all the boxes above excluting any of the autos and the bling bling rims)


anything else we didnt think of.



Dave you have too much time on your hands this afternoon.


A bit like me too.

[long stroke]

I like that....

itd be a great conversation at the dealers..

yes sir that landrover is the base version (and your looking at a series II) would sir like to see the options list?

the optional extras list would be along the lines of


passangers seat (supplied with seatbelts)
wind shield
windshield wipers (requires previous item)
fuel gauge
volts gaug
oil pressure gauge
roof
roof that doesnt leak (tell me you didnt actuallythink this was available)
rear seats (supplied with seat belts)
windows
second spare
front winch (specify elec, pto or hydraulic)
rear winch (specify elec pto or hydraulic)
on board engine driven air comressor
CTIF (requires previous item)
padded dash
sound insulation
radio (previous item is reccomended)
tow pack
rear locker
front locker
abs
TC
hand wich
cargo barrier (roof +windows option recommended)
HDC
cloth seat covers
Leather seats
carpet
12v automotive fridge
dual batteries
tri batteries
quad batteries (reccomended for extended use of elec winch
larger fuel tank
long range fuel tank
2 long range fuel tanks
the Oh my god ITs never going to stop filling 1000l fuel tank
Hd suspension (required with previous option)
uhf 2way radio
AM 2 way radio
AM radio
Fm radio
VHF radio
Hf Radio
LF radio
ELF radio
cassete player
cd player
Sat phone
GPS system
enough antennea to make people think you ticked at least 1/2 of the previous 12 items
on board entertainment (single dual tri or quad screens)
(if you tick all previous Radio/entertainent at least dual batteries are reccomended)
Aero dynamics package (no sorry we're just kidding this isnt available)
AT/MT tyres
Bead lockers
runflats
snow tyres
snow chains
Really big tyres
monster truck conversion
The "crap the rubber alone is too tall to get into undercover parking" tyres (needs previous option)
Tracks (no we're not kidding we've done it before)
31 inch Bling bling shiney rims with 1 inch licorice strip tyres (if you tick this we are not going to take you seriously ever) (and we'll double the price becuase your a gullible fool with more money than brains) (yes even if you only have $20 and are morgagin a house to pay for this)
Airbags
Side entry protection
reliable Lucas Electrics (yes you got us this Item still isnt available, we'll let you know when it is)
the "its a landrover, of course it can recover your toyata" stickers
Instruction booklet on the LR wave thing you'll have to get used to if your trading in a toyota
6x6 conversion
Front impact protection (previously sold as a bull bar)
Rear impact protection (previously sold as a tow hitch)
Windy windows
Electric windows
Tdi diesel
TD5 diesel
Isuzu 3.9 diesel
Hearing protection (seriously reccomended with that last engine)(yes even if you ticked sound insulation)(no we're not kidding)
a V8 (the arabs would like to thank you for your ongoing pledge to finance them
the bigger V8 (you do like the arabs dontcha)
with LPG (ok maybe not so much)
a 4 speed gearbox
a tough 4 speed gearbox
the 5 speed gearbox
the strong 5 speed gearbox
the really strong 5 speed gearbox
a 3 speed auto
a 4 speed auto
a 5 speed auto
a 6 speed auto
(the previous 4 options come with a free $200 shopping voucher for @ dresses'r'us)
power steeing
power assisted brakes
disc brakes front (requires previous option)
disc brakes rear (requires both previous options)
Enough brakes to stop a freight train
disc brake conversion for the park brake
snorkle
exhaust brake
tinted windows
door locks
side mirrors
internal rear view mirror (reccomended with any of the autos so you can see to put your make up on)
a heater
air con (not just opening the windows)
air con that works
rust prevention system (this is also included free as a segmented sequential upgrade over time)





The extra heavy duty, all the bells and whistles, ultra tall on oversized rubber 8x8x8 conversion with the airbag suspension and CTIF pressure drop onto runflats so it still makes it into carparks conversion. (tick this one if youve allready ticked all the boxes above excluting any of the autos and the bling bling rims)


anything else we didnt think of.


BLOODY hell that would take me a week to think up and type:eek:

They need strong recovery points,wider body,comfier seats,wider track,4bd1t isuzu engines as option,less electrics,front and rear lockers,stronger axles cv's,etc,offroad tyres,keep the body and chassis the same,bigger fuel compasity and bigger engines.

[Disco_owner]

internal rear view mirror (reccomended with any of the autos so you can see to put your make up on)




Dave, I didn't realise that you're that way inclined ?

:eek::D:D

[Blknight.aus]

Im not... I dont drive autos.



:cool:

[Debacle]

Im not... I dont drive autos.



:cool:

And another thing

Where are us Auto drivers going to hang our handbags

[Disco_owner]

And another thing

Where are us Auto drivers going to hang our handbags

:Rolling:

[scarry]

guys,
sure this mr Lawrene isnt from the tojo factory & is laughing at us putting s*** on vehicles we love(& sometimes hate)

sadly i recon lr dont want the defender market.they proberly make more money from the luxury market& that is where they are heading.
the d3 is up market from the d2.they are targetting this market
it would be interesting to know how many of each model are sold & sale trends for last 5yrs or so
i believe many defence forces around the world dont use landys any more either & this would have been a big defender market

anyway now ta ta owns them who knows what will happen
cheers :confused::confused:

[LandyAndy]

Hi Scarry
He is apperently legit.
An AULRO member that works in the same place checked it out.
Andrew

[Blknight.aus]

anyway now ta ta owns them who knows what will happen
cheers :confused::confused:

My money is on them putting more bucks into the sheds on wheels and hopefully bringing back some of the retro tech and classifying the vehicles as utilities to get past all the greenies hassling (the tdi300 is still better than the current EMCON requirements in australia and a good suzie is as well)

[Ralph1Malph]

Loz,
Everything here is well worth it.
I shall add this:
FLY BY WIRE!
First, do some reliability trials and testing on the electronics.
Once the bugs are ironed out, replace as much unreliable mechanical stuff with electrons and ribbon cable as possible.
Imagine a LR which is instantly responsive in all facets and self diagnoses:cool:.
Yes of course the unwashed masses will poo poo electronics but, hey, planes fly better now don't they!
The trick is to make them RELIABLE, something LR have yet to do!

Ralph

[Blknight.aus]

yeah vut as a rule planes also dont generally leak, have sealed connectors at harness junctions, dont go engine deep in mud, have total system integrety checks carried out at least monthly AND have multiple redundancies on everything that moves or are grossly over-engineered (wheel bearings for example)

[Ralph1Malph]

yeah vut as a rule planes also dont generally leak, have sealed connectors at harness junctions, dont go engine deep in mud, have total system integrety checks carried out at least monthly AND have multiple redundancies on everything that moves or are grossly over-engineered (wheel bearings for example)

Mate,
How are things out at the airfield?:cool:
I live for the day when my wksp doesn't need grease or oxy/acet:p:p:p:p

catch ya soon

Ralph

[stirlsilver]

yeah vut as a rule planes also dont generally leak, have sealed connectors at harness junctions, dont go engine deep in mud, have total system integrety checks carried out at least monthly AND have multiple redundancies on everything that moves or are grossly over-engineered (wheel bearings for example)

If aircraft were grossly over engineered they wouldn't fly.

All components are designed to do what they need to with the least amount of weight possible. All components are designed to 150% of design load before permanently deforming and 200% failure (from memory).

Also, due to the cyclic stresses on the structure, cracks develop over time which is why they need such strict inspection programs. An aircraft structure that is designed not to crack is too heavy and the aircraft will not be able to fly. And if it did, it would not be an economical vehicle.

I'm an aeronautical engineer so this was up my alley :D. Sorry it was grossly off topic but just my 2 cents

[isuzutoo-eh]

I like the idea of getting back to the historic base values of Land Rover.

If Mercedes Benz were able to re-release a 115 year old 3 wheeled car design in 2001 and sell out before production started, can't Land Rover re-produce the Series 1 for its 60th year?
Surely it could be produced at a very reasonable cost if manufactured in a limited number, say 10,000 or more :)

Capstan winch and canvas ragtop could be options?

[Blknight.aus]

yep but compared to some stuff on civvy vehicles like say the front drive axles on a 110 that as stock are only rated to 120% of total vehicle load and fail at about 150%.. (talking comercial and multi engine planes here)

and youve got how many hydraulic systems controling the one control surface and how many fuel tanks (with how many fuel pumps)
and how many engines run electrical generation gear?
and youve got an APU
and youve got the RAT (on some planes)


I dream of being allowed to have a permissable workable tolerance of 150% with a break point over the 200% mark. With that allowability I could make you a landrover that you could never break with normal use in standard trim if you didnt go over the allowable loading limits.

[Bush65]

I've only just stumbled over this thread.

Toyota already had a good 6 cyl, turbo diesel in their landcruisers, but after they changed to the new common rail diesel (to meet future emmision requirements) of about 4.5 litres, they apparently can't keep up with orders.

What did Land Rover do? They put a puny 2.4 litre engine in the 2007 Defender!!!

The best selling 4x4 in Australia is the Toyota Hilux. A commercial trayback/utility workhorse. The current turbo diesel is not a bad engine.

In Australia, more 4x4 hilux's are sold in one or two weeks than all model Land Rover combined in a year.

What did Land Rover do? They stopped the 110 trayback/utility!!!

Compare published figures for Hilux and Defender 130 duel cabs

Price: Hilux $40,890 to Defender $51,990 - Hilux 1, Defender nil
Engine capacity: Hilux 3 litre to Defender 2.4 litre - Hilux 2, Defender nil
Power: Hilux 126kW, Defender 90kW - Hilux 3, Defender nil
Torque: Hilux 343 Nm to Defender 360 Nm - Hilux 3, Defender 1
Weight to Power: Hilux 14.8 kg/kW to Defender 23.5 kg/kW - H 4, D 1
Economy: Hilux 8.5 L/100km to Defender 11.1 L/km - H 5, D 1

On these figures, Defender only topped the Hilux in engine torque, but it was only marginal and the Defender is a heavier vehicle.

75 litre fuel capacity in Land Rovers!!! What a cruel joke! My diesel rangie will have well over 200 litre capacity.

Land Rover transmission and drivetrain strength (lack of), is the laughing stock of the 4x4 world!!!

Land Rover support!!! Another cruel joke!!!

A popular 4x4 magazine regularly publish new 4x4 vehicle sales. IIRC, they list the top 10 in the major classes. Land Rover don't make these lists any more!!! Apparently any upstart Asian maker that decides to enter the 4x4 market will easily outsell Land Rover.

My 1st 4x4 was a Toyota Landcruiser FJ40. I have only had Land Rovers since, starting with a rangie from sometime back in mid to late 1970's.

I can't imagine Land Rover building what I want. Despite this Land Rover person's requests in this thread, Land Rover will not have enough vision to build what is needed in Australia.

I'm modifying what I have now, into what I want. My disco will go, and my rangie and bushie will have to do me until I can't drive any more.

[Bush65]

Thanks for all your comments and PMs, they are very helpful. :D I will get around to replying to them all in turn, just give me a few days to clear my inbox.

I would really like some more comments on Terrain Response on the newer vehicles, let me know what you think about it's function.

Cheers

Loz
I've never understood why anyone would have/want Terrain Response.

If they do need or want it (presumably because they can't drive a 4x4, or else don't like the exertion of changing gear, locking diffs etc.), why don't they just take the next logical step and stay home and watch it on a dvd.

I'll wager those people wouldn't have enough experience/knowledge to air down tyres, carry recovery gear and know how to use it - they should stay home and watch a dvd.

Why can't Land Rover produce something we don't have and do need?

[long stroke]

Keep the live axle's and don't go to ifs!!

[beforethevision]

I know people are going to abuse me, but if a new defender came out with a spring based independent suspension, with a good travel length and low unsprung mass, I would buy it. People that winge about independent havent had a close up at Baja cars, or similar, because its practical and impressive. BUT needs tall(er) tyres, Ie match the patrol's arch space (to ensure safety of the outer end of the lower wishbone).

I have no problems with Terrain response, Those that dont want it will not want a stock vehicle anyhow. TR is amazing, obviously all 3 diff lokcs engaged will get you further offroad but well im not prepared to spend big $$ for steel bits over wires. Only thing i would like to add is that electronic systems need hard switched overides. The systems add alot, but needs to be controlable in all circumstances.

Cheers!

[ak]

[QUOTE=Bush65;744508]I've never understood why anyone would have/want Terrain Response.

If they do need or want it (presumably because they can't drive a 4x4, or else don't like the exertion of changing gear, locking diffs etc.), why don't they just take the next logical step and stay home and watch it on a dvd.

I'll wager those people wouldn't have enough experience/knowledge to air down tyres, carry recovery gear and know how to use it - they should stay home and watch a dvd.

The D3 boys are going to be along to flame you any minute now. Can't wait this might get interesting.

[ak]

I've only just stumbled over this thread.

Toyota already had a good 6 cyl, turbo diesel in their landcruisers, but after they changed to the new common rail diesel (to meet future emmision requirements) of about 4.5 litres, they apparently can't keep up with orders.

What did Land Rover do? They put a puny 2.4 litre engine in the 2007 Defender!!!

The best selling 4x4 in Australia is the Toyota Hilux. A commercial trayback/utility workhorse. The current turbo diesel is not a bad engine.

In Australia, more 4x4 hilux's are sold in one or two weeks than all model Land Rover combined in a year.

What did Land Rover do? They stopped the 110 trayback/utility!!!

Compare published figures for Hilux and Defender 130 duel cabs

Price: Hilux $40,890 to Defender $51,990 - Hilux 1, Defender nil
Engine capacity: Hilux 3 litre to Defender 2.4 litre - Hilux 2, Defender nil
Power: Hilux 126kW, Defender 90kW - Hilux 3, Defender nil
Torque: Hilux 343 Nm to Defender 360 Nm - Hilux 3, Defender 1
Weight to Power: Hilux 14.8 kg/kW to Defender 23.5 kg/kW - H 4, D 1
Economy: Hilux 8.5 L/100km to Defender 11.1 L/km - H 5, D 1

On these figures, Defender only topped the Hilux in engine torque, but it was only marginal and the Defender is a heavier vehicle.

75 litre fuel capacity in Land Rovers!!! What a cruel joke! My diesel rangie will have well over 200 litre capacity.

Land Rover transmission and drivetrain strength (lack of), is the laughing stock of the 4x4 world!!!

Land Rover support!!! Another cruel joke!!!

A popular 4x4 magazine regularly publish new 4x4 vehicle sales. IIRC, they list the top 10 in the major classes. Land Rover don't make these lists any more!!! Apparently any upstart Asian maker that decides to enter the 4x4 market will easily outsell Land Rover.

My 1st 4x4 was a Toyota Landcruiser FJ40. I have only had Land Rovers since, starting with a rangie from sometime back in mid to late 1970's.

I can't imagine Land Rover building what I want. Despite this Land Rover person's requests in this thread, Land Rover will not have enough vision to build what is needed in Australia.

I'm modifying what I have now, into what I want. My disco will go, and my rangie and bushie will have to do me until I can't drive any more.


Don't disagree. But LR sell more RRS in the USA as quick as they can get them into the country. As Vlad said in yesterdays post somewhere, LR are more interested in being a luxury car maker now than anything else these days. That's where the money is.

Fact is we all want LR to focus on what they stood for in the 70's without the reliablity issues, models like the defender aren't as important to LR compared to the RRS.

[blitz]

Hey AK, while I dont disagree with you about RSS being the most important one to Landrover, I think that if they make a model then they should support it, and if they are going to do that then they should make it to meet the clientel demands.

Look at what Jeep did with the Rubicon, they realised that this was the most common type of modifications made to their Wrangler so they made it as a factory model. Arguable it is now the most capable off the shelf 4wd sold in the world that only requires a normal drivers license and can still fit in a supermarket car park.

With the amount of engines and other bits at it's disposal from the various parent companies it is disapointing to see that they seem to be building it (defender) under sufferance and hope it will just die off?

Thats my take on it anyway

Blythe

[Sleepy]

Arguable it is now the most capable off the shelf 4wd sold in the world that only requires a normal drivers license and can still fit in a supermarket car park.

Not sure if you were inviting the argument but I'll put my very stock 90 up against a stock Rubi-con anyday. :D:D:p
(Although I may loose on fitting under the 2m clearance carparks!!! Time to air-down?):eek:

[blitz]

Nar Sleepy, arguably is simply a polite way of saying others may disagree and I dont have a problem with that.

Actually I would love to be involved with a head to head between a 90 and a rubicon. On paper the lockers in the Rubicon put it in front.

Hopefully I will be able to let you all know about the Rubicon soon as my brother is going to buy one when he gets back from his next stint on the NW shelf.

Blythe

[beforethevision]

I've never understood why anyone would have/want Terrain Response.

If they do need or want it (presumably because they can't drive a 4x4, or else don't like the exertion of changing gear, locking diffs etc.), why don't they just take the next logical step and stay home and watch it on a dvd.

I'll wager those people wouldn't have enough experience/knowledge to air down tyres, carry recovery gear and know how to use it - they should stay home and watch a dvd.

Why can't Land Rover produce something we don't have and do need?

I agree that TR has significantly less use with diff lockers and big lifts, but what about those that never get that serious? TR is a good solution for the masses. Not perfect, but the choice to upgrade/modify is all yours. TR is simply something YOU dont need.

Cheers!

[Timj]

"I've never understood why anyone would have/want Terrain Response.

If they do need or want it (presumably because they can't drive a 4x4, or else don't like the exertion of changing gear, locking diffs etc.), why don't they just take the next logical step and stay home and watch it on a dvd.

I'll wager those people wouldn't have enough experience/knowledge to air down tyres, carry recovery gear and know how to use it - they should stay home and watch a dvd."

It was difficult not to reply very aggressively to this comment. You don't know me at all so making this kind of statement just shows your own ignorance. You have no idea what my knowledge or experience are you just know that you don't want TR.

To answer the original posters questions since I do have a D3 -

I did a lot of researching of forums, magazines and reviews and test drove a couple of the cars that I was interested in. I could have got a much better deal on a new Pajero but still decided to go with the Disco as I felt it was just a much better all round vehicle. I was sick of the compromises required to have a car that fulfilled four distinct purposes and the D3 seems to do all of them pretty well. This is firstly as a daily driver round the city, secondly as a touring vehicle going to outback areas including places like Cape York, Uluru and Fraser as well as just to Sydney or Melbourne, thirdly as a tow vehicle with an offroad trailer or the boat and lastly as a true offroad vehicle to have some fun in. I have had the car offroad properly only once since I bought it and frankly it performed extremely well in some interesting mud and up a few decent hills. The addition of Terrain Response makes all these diverse puposes more achievable in the one car. Frankly I am not interested any more in a vehicle that is a pig to drive around town or on a touring trip just because I have got it all set up for the occasional bit of rock climbing or mud.

Things that still could be better on the Disco are the ability to raise the height at higher speeds and some better options on the tyres from the dealer. And of course I really would like some more country dealers same as everybody else. Why do Toyota need so many country dealers? - because they break down too.

Tim.

[Bush65]

Nar Sleepy, arguably is simply a polite way of saying others may disagree and I dont have a problem with that.

Actually I would love to be involved with a head to head between a 90 and a rubicon. On paper the lockers in the Rubicon put it in front.

Hopefully I will be able to let you all know about the Rubicon soon as my brother is going to buy one when he gets back from his next stint on the NW shelf.

Blythe
I agree.

[Bush65]

"I've never understood why anyone would have/want Terrain Response.

If they do need or want it (presumably because they can't drive a 4x4, or else don't like the exertion of changing gear, locking diffs etc.), why don't they just take the next logical step and stay home and watch it on a dvd.

I'll wager those people wouldn't have enough experience/knowledge to air down tyres, carry recovery gear and know how to use it - they should stay home and watch a dvd."

It was difficult not to reply very aggressively to this comment. You don't know me at all so making this kind of statement just shows your own ignorance. You have no idea what my knowledge or experience are you just know that you don't want TR.

To answer the original posters questions since I do have a D3 -

I did a lot of researching of forums, magazines and reviews and test drove a couple of the cars that I was interested in. I could have got a much better deal on a new Pajero but still decided to go with the Disco as I felt it was just a much better all round vehicle. I was sick of the compromises required to have a car that fulfilled four distinct purposes and the D3 seems to do all of them pretty well. This is firstly as a daily driver round the city, secondly as a touring vehicle going to outback areas including places like Cape York, Uluru and Fraser as well as just to Sydney or Melbourne, thirdly as a tow vehicle with an offroad trailer or the boat and lastly as a true offroad vehicle to have some fun in. I have had the car offroad properly only once since I bought it and frankly it performed extremely well in some interesting mud and up a few decent hills. The addition of Terrain Response makes all these diverse puposes more achievable in the one car. Frankly I am not interested any more in a vehicle that is a pig to drive around town or on a touring trip just because I have got it all set up for the occasional bit of rock climbing or mud.

Things that still could be better on the Disco are the ability to raise the height at higher speeds and some better options on the tyres from the dealer. And of course I really would like some more country dealers same as everybody else. Why do Toyota need so many country dealers? - because they break down too.

Tim.
Tim, I apologise if you took my post as judging you or other Land Rover owners. It was late and I should have put it differently.

I have seen Land Rover adding more complexity (and more things to fail) to each incarnation to take the need for driver experience away.

I saw this person from Land Rover (allegedly ;)) more interested in going further in this direction.

The point I hoped to make, was how I thought Land Rover must view their customers (victims ;)). The rot started when they fitted north American and Japanese discos with an electrical interlock in the LT230 that prevents changing between low and high range unless your foot is on the brake pedal - they apparently think British and Australian owners have more nouce.

I don't have a vehicle with TC, and have never driven one.

My vehicles are not pigs to drive on road. Granted they would not keep up with a D3 on the blacktop, but they are not too shabby and the legal speed limit is a good equaliser.

I see deficiencies in what Land Rover are producing, and know not one person who would by a Land Rover because it has TC - most would see it as a good reason not to buy Land Rover.

Land Rover need to offer options, like larger fuel tank capacity, 6 and 8 cyl diesels (and 4 cyl) across the range (including Defender). Also Salisbury axles and selectable lockers.

I'm leading a Simpson trip in July - following most of Madigan's line, with a diversion to Geosurveys Hill. I invite the Land Rover person who started this thread to borrow a Land Rover from the dealers and join us.

He would learn a lot - I nearly said love the experience, but not if he has to leave the vehicle out there as a monument to Land Rover folly, after it runs out of tyres or fuel, or the electronics fail.

He could make comparison to:

300Tdi disco with maxi-drive axles and tru-tracs
300Tdi 110 Defender with maxi-drive lockers
4.2 old tech diesel, short wheelbase Nissan GQ
V8 diesel Landcruiser 200

[pooky]

not only do aircraft have all the above mentioned things they also have several hours spent on per and post flight checks for every flight and if one person misses something on a vital systems it goes foun in the second, third or final preflight check by the aircrew. And having brought my 06 defender new and having to deal with land rover warranty (12 trips in 10 months)they probadly should only make matchbox cars.but a plus in the last 8 months no problems fingers crossed.




Kev

06 defender

[Timj]

Hi John (Bush65),

Yes, I did take offence with the way it came across to me so thanks for the apology and the explanation.

I do have a few questions though about the logic in your post. All vehicles that you mentioned as the ones that you are leading into the Simpson appear to be non standard yet you expect a standard Landrover of some description to come along and then get the fingers pointed at it as being somehow inadequate if it fails. All the vehicles that you mention have considerable electronic controls even if just for the fuel injection on their engines. Why do you believe that the electronics are such a weak point when all the vehicles have some? The D3 has been out since 2005 and while there were some programming issues in the early models they appear to have been sorted out and the vehicles have now got a reputation for reliability. Would the other vehicles you mention be in the same kind of trouble if their computers failed? If so why do you not see that as the same kind of problem. What would happen to the Toyota if the front diff failed (not sure if this is still a weak point with the 200 in the same way it was with the 100) and it had to limp home in 2wd through the dunes? There are many other more traditional weak points that may cause a vehicle to fail just as catastrophically as the electronics. Do some of the old bush remedies still work with a D3 such as using a branch to support broken suspension as you would a leaf spring, maybe they do, maybe not.

I have worked with computers all my life (since before the IBM PC was first built) so I have something of an affinity for them and they can be extremely reliable pieces of equipment. I think you will find that your whole life relies on them in many more ways than perhaps you realise. Next time you get taken into a hospital you will certainly be relying on electronic gadgetry as much as on the human staff. The control systems on the D3 were certainly one of the reasons I bought it, not the only one, but I saw them as being pretty much the best way to get the multi purpose vehicle I wanted. So now you do know someone who bought a Landrover because of the TC :).

And that brings me to the whole issues of traction control, terrain response, electronically locking differentials and whether they are somehow acceptable additions to a vehicle or if they take away the required skill that somehow proves we are real men (or something like that). First question is how are these kinds of aids different to an automatically locking differential such as a Detroit? How are they different to raised suspension? The only difference between them and the manually operated diff locks is that they are always on. Once you are in a situation then what is the difference? With manually operated locks and other mods you are now in a vehicle where the required skill level to traverse a given obstacle is less once they are engaged. The electronic aids enable the use of things like independent suspension that do give the on road performance I appreciate while still allowing me to traverse some very interesting tracks. I can't understand what you are so vehemently opposed to. If it all comes back to the electronics being unreliable then you may need to go to an old carburetted vehicle since that is the only way to get away from them.

I certainly hope to one day cross the Simpson in my D3. It will have adequate fuel with an auxilliary tank and jerry cans (same as most vehicles need), it will have good tyres (probably on 17" rims) and it will have what is probably the simplest way to get a suspension lift anywhere and that is just to run shortened sensor rods. I will have a car that actually has been tested in extreme conditions unlike the 200 series and I think it will do the job just fine. Same as any other vehicle I went in I would also have company, an EPIRB and a Sat Phone.

I will now step off the soap box :angel::).

Tim.

[isuzurover]

All vehicles that you mentioned as the ones that you are leading into the Simpson appear to be non standard yet you expect a standard Landrover of some description to come along and then get the fingers pointed at it as being somehow inadequate if it fails.

All the vehicles that you mention have considerable electronic controls even if just for the fuel injection on their engines.


Why do you believe that the electronics are such a weak point when all the vehicles have some?

I am not John - but I agree with everything he posted, so excuse me for commenting...

A pre TC land rover with diff locks isn't much different to a more modern one with TC (in terms of traction aids).

The top 3 vehicles in that list have NO ELECTRONICS - they have one wire to open/close the fuel supply. You could run them quite happily without a battery or alternator.

I have been impressed on recent trips on how a D3 with a decent set of tyres can work, but that was only up to the level of a stock standard (open-diffed) 110 with equivalent tyres. And OMG the idiocy of these silly plastic covers over the recovery points...

Tim - how often do you replace your computers/electronics? I am lucky to get one that will last 3-4 years. I don't want to have to change vehicles that often. Only LR could have a vehicle which leaks oil into electronics!!! I am amazed at all the electrical niggles that D2 owners are finding as the vehicles get a bit older.

Also - Why oh why is the Air Suspension compressor mounted so low that it needs a guard! And WHY is the guard plastic??? On one trip, a D3 smashed the plastic guard to pieces halfway up a hill, dislodging the power connector to the compressor - the result - was like trying to drive a ferrari up a 4x4 track.

Personally, there is no way I would take a vehicle with all those design faults to any remote areas.

On another note, some (aftermarket) companies/users here have proven that LSDs in conjunction with traction control is almost equivalent to diff locks. It would be great if LR offered that as an option.

[rick130]

Hi John (Bush65),

Yes, I did take offence with the way it came across to me so thanks for the apology and the explanation.

I do have a few questions though about the logic in your post. All vehicles that you mentioned as the ones that you are leading into the Simpson appear to be non standard yet you expect a standard Landrover of some description to come along and then get the fingers pointed at it as being somehow inadequate if it fails. <snip>

Tim.

I think that's the point of this whole thread, that the vehicles in standard form aren't up to what most of us feel they should/could be, and hence need modification to meet our needs or even equal the Japanese 4wd's in key areas.

Without trying to second guess John's thoughts, I feel that the OP's response re TR and pretty much ignoring what most of us on here feel are fundamental engineering/design issues is a bit of a worry.
Is this an indication of L/R's future design philosophy ?
Re-programming some software is a hell of a lot cheaper than installing a better front diff assembly (which in Land Rovers are considerably weaker than the 100/200 Series Land Cruisers ;) ) so possibly...... :(

As Ben points out above, both the 300Tdi's and Patrol mentioned in john's post above use mechanical injection. Not a chip or ECU on any of those vehicles engines, controls or drive mechanisms.

Read through the first six pages or so of comments.

Most concentrate on basic engineering issues.

[Bush65]

Hi John (Bush65),...All vehicles that you mentioned as the ones that you are leading into the Simpson appear to be non standard yet you expect a standard Landrover of some description to come along and then get the fingers pointed at it as being somehow inadequate if it fails. ...

Yes they are non-standard, but pretty simple. Mainly to address the usual off road and fuel range issues, which make what we have more practical.

Actually I don't expect a standard Land Rover to come along. At the least I would expect it to be fitted with decent light truck tyres (preferably same size as one of the other vehicles), a suitable number of gerry cans in the back for fuel and water, proper recovery points, all of the load tied down securely and a hand held vhf radio. I would be irresponsible to allow otherwise.

With those items attended to it should do ok, unless the driveline fails, or the catalytic converters set the spinnifex alight. It would soon become clear what we are faced with and why many here are interested in issues other than terrain control.


Hi John (Bush65),...Why do you believe that the electronics are such a weak point when all the vehicles have some? ...

It used to be said, that the majority of vehicles that had to be recovered from the desert were rangies because of electrical problems. Now I don't doubt that they are more reliable now.

I also know that Land Rovers have a reputation for being unreliable, but in all my years, they have never let me down. The exception was when I fitted a well recommended electronic ignition (that was easy to fix by putting the points back in). I have been let down several times by the engine management system in my previous daily driver (a vehicle that sells far more units than all Land Rovers).

The problem I have is, so many systems are now reliant on complex electronics and the result of failure in remote locations is too horrible to contemplate. What mechanic would you get to go out on the Madigan Line to diagnose and repair an electronic fault in a Land Rover (heck, what mechanic would give you a second glance if you took said Land Rover to their workshop).

I have seen how so many systems and problems are inflicted from a simple water crossing close to civilisation.

I doubt you would find anyone to take a truck out on the Madigan Line to recovery a stranded vehicle, unless it was particularly close to either the Colson or Hay River tracks.

Corrugations and heat can kill lead acid batteries. I know a vehicle that this happened to on the Canning Stock Route - but it could be bump started each morning and would run all day.

The spinnifex mounds, canes and seeds on Madigan's Line have the potential to bring an end to a poorly prepared modern Land Rover.


Hi John (Bush65),...If so why do you not see that as the same kind of problem. What would happen to the Toyota if the front diff failed (not sure if this is still a weak point with the 200 in the same way it was with the 100) and it had to limp home in 2wd through the dunes? ...
I am very critical of the electrics in the new Landcruisers. The alternator is too low and there are actual problems with damage to wiring which is vulnerable. Some of my comments above also apply. I don't know if the front diff is any better - probably not. IMHO the 100 series front diff is stonger than Land Rover diffs. They are weak when reversing under high load and that does not concern me this trip.


Hi John (Bush65),...And that brings me to the whole issues of traction control, terrain response, electronically locking differentials and whether they are somehow acceptable additions to a vehicle or if they take away the required skill that somehow proves we are real men (or something like that)...
You have missed my points, or I was not clear enough :(

quote=Timj;745405]Hi John (Bush65),...electronically locking differentials...[/quote]
AFAIK, only the centre diff is lockable. I have had rangies with locking centre diffs for about 30 years and never thought it would be good idea if the centre diff had an electric actuator. I don't find it difficult to lock the centre diff when I go off road and then unlock it when I get back on the main road. On average, the number of times I have to do that each year is very small - so no big deal.


Hi John (Bush65),...First question is how are these kinds of aids different to an automatically locking differential such as a Detroit? How are they different to raised suspension? The only difference between them and the manually operated diff locks is that they are always on...
You are wrong. The weakest part of the Land Rover drive train is the cross pin in the diff carrier. Traction control will not make it stronger like an after market locker or tru-trac will.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that suggest raised suspension has less problems than Land Rover pneumatic suspension systems.


Hi John (Bush65),...If it all comes back to the electronics being unreliable then you may need to go to an old carburetted vehicle since that is the only way to get away from them...
I happen to think there is another way that you have missed.

For about ten minutes, I considered converting the window winders in my rangie to electric actuation :D


Hi John (Bush65),...I certainly hope to one day cross the Simpson in my D3. It will have adequate fuel with an auxilliary tank and jerry cans (same as most vehicles need), it will have good tyres (probably on 17" rims) and it will have what is probably the simplest way to get a suspension lift anywhere and that is just to run shortened sensor rods. I will have a car that actually has been tested in extreme conditions unlike the 200 series and I think it will do the job just fine. Same as any other vehicle I went in I would also have company, an EPIRB and a Sat Phone.

I will now step off the soap box :angel::).

Tim.
I trust you will enjoy it.

I'm not inferring that your vehicle is not up to it, but I hear a lot of comments from people coming off the desert, about how hard it was - I wonder about some people and why they found it difficult, contrary to my own experience on the same tracks.

I just had a thought - hey, they should have terrain control :twobeers: