MaxTrax used today

[Aaron]

Got my Hilux stuck today in the front yard.

Not sure how to say this, there is no easy way to say it. They didn't work :P

Had I got a shovel and cleared some room to wedge them in furthuer they would have. Had there been an AT/MT even a Grabber tyre there would have been enough grip there to pull the tracks under the tyre. But now I know for the future, that a shovel really is important to take 4wd'ing.

Anyways, the real purpose of this thread is to see if the straps are connected properly. Should I be using another shackle to conned the two straps, rather than running it through the loop?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/02/492.jpg

[George130]

Don't use a shakle to join the 2 atraps. What you did is correct.

[Aaron]

Sweet, thanks.


And oh... Cucinadio you need not reply to this thread :P

[Blknight.aus]

urmm sorry no thats not right, its very close but its still not right.

from what it looks like youve got the main shackle on the rover attached to the vertical support of the bull bar... this is not rated for recovery work.

your recovering in reverse gear while it works its not really reccomended as reverse is typically the weakest gear in a manual box and your diffs are mainly setup for mass power going forwards not backwards..

In line with that the best recovery point (for being recovered or recovering) on a deefer is the pin on the reece hitch on the back. ITs strong and its got the advantage of being at the back of the vehicle if it all goes terribly wrong its going to take out somehting on the back of the vehicle which is usually only going to be the rear glass as opposed to the windshield and if it comes in lower than that it will hit the spare or a tail light not the radiator/cooler or a head light.

doubling a strap over like that can cause problems depending on how it wants to sit when its tightened up Ive seen guys do that with a 1m tree protector and then bend the chassis inwards while trying to pull out.

however right at the end of the day with recovey anything that works and doesnt kill maim or break equipment is on the cards.

[Aaron]

I was told it was ok to put hooks there. Bastards!
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/04/402.jpg

I dont have a rear tow bar/or recovery points. I want rear recovery points, but dont want a rear two bar.

I wasnt aware of the reverse gear things though, thanks.

The Equaliser strap is attached with two 3.25 shackles to the back of the Hilux.

Sounds as though im lucky it was bogged down deeper.

Thanks for your advice!

[rmp]

Not only that, the front diff is typically weaker than the rear. So that, along with reverse, and using it backwards is a good reason to avoid reverse-snatches.

[Blknight.aus]

having those hooks there will work and work well right up untill you have to pull at an angle going to the other side of the vehicle then they will twist out the plating if you get serious about your pull.

as youve got them its better than most toyo/ford/nissan drivers do when they just tie the strap around the barwork of the bull bar.

Have a look at the rearmost member of your vehicle and you'll see 6 captive nuts in the middle of the bar where the towbar bolts up. you can get an adaptor made up that sits in there and takes a reece hitch or you can mount a pintle hook type set up there and then use that. although I suspect it wont be quite as strong as the full bar setup it will be better than trying to use the "tie down" points that are on the rear.

If you look at the rear axle you will see 2 bolt holes on the end of a small bracked 1 on each end of the axle. If you ever have to flat tow or recover a ricer an equalising hitch off of both them back to the ricer will let you get your pull down low enough that you dont spud up the front of his front bumper.

[Panda]

I learnt from this post too, so thanks to all the input:D

Just out of curiosity, why is the front diff weaker than the rear? (And I apologise in advance if it's a stupid question!)


Not only that, the front diff is typically weaker than the rear. So that, along with reverse, and using it backwards is a good reason to avoid reverse-snatches.

[cucinadio]

Got my Hilux stuck today in the front yard.

Not sure how to say this, there is no easy way to say it. They didn't work :P

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/02/492.jpg


Damn l bet you wish you had some of those

"Hubbatrax" :Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

mate you left that wide open :D


cheers

[Blknight.aus]

thats more of a toymotor problem than a rover problem that said.

If you have a locker in the rear, a sailsbury in the rear uprated axles in the rear then its stronger becuase you have changed it to something stronger OR have the sailsbury.

the front axles are a mite weaker up front than down the back but thats just the nature of making a steering live front axle you can make it tougher but that usually means more weight and more expense.

the big killer is once the diff gets bedded in operating in its normal direction working it hard in reverse or shock loading it in reverse tends to do bad things to the crown and pinion it usually wont break then and there but it will put stress fractures in and then when you go hard in the normal direction or do another recovery/trailer push/something that takes a little more effort than backing out of the coles carpark it'll let go.

in the same vein the carrier pin for the center gear can also let go in exactly the same manner. and then you have large metal bits just meandering around in an area where there are large heavy bits of steel getting spun around by plenty of power and sometimes at quite the rate of knots and we all know the end result of that.

[Aaron]

having those hooks there will work and work well right up untill you have to pull at an angle going to the other side of the vehicle then they will twist out the plating if you get serious about your pull.

as youve got them its better than most toyo/ford/nissan drivers do when they just tie the strap around the barwork of the bull bar.

Have a look at the rearmost member of your vehicle and you'll see 6 captive nuts in the middle of the bar where the towbar bolts up. you can get an adaptor made up that sits in there and takes a reece hitch or you can mount a pintle hook type set up there and then use that. although I suspect it wont be quite as strong as the full bar setup it will be better than trying to use the "tie down" points that are on the rear.

If you look at the rear axle you will see 2 bolt holes on the end of a small bracked 1 on each end of the axle. If you ever have to flat tow or recover a ricer an equalising hitch off of both them back to the ricer will let you get your pull down low enough that you dont spud up the front of his front bumper.



I might get a rectangle plate made up to act as a big washer to spread the load.

Do you mean these holes?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/02/491.jpg

I have seen on a website (which I can't find ATM) a plate that bolts up to those holes with an eye loop welded on it. But from the pictures they look alarmingly small, and I couldnt find a load rating.

Just had a look on Expeditionechange.com. Interesting page - https://www.expeditionexchange.com/dixonbate/

The 5t one id like on the back.

[Panda]

thats more of a toymotor problem than a rover problem that said.

If you have a locker in the rear, a sailsbury in the rear uprated axles in the rear then its stronger becuase you have changed it to something stronger OR have the sailsbury.

the front axles are a mite weaker up front than down the back but thats just the nature of making a steering live front axle you can make it tougher but that usually means more weight and more expense.

Hi Dave, yep aggree up to a point..takeing it as we have two standered rover diffs theres not much differance in strength between the two..

the big killer is once the diff gets bedded in operating in its normal direction working it hard in reverse or shock loading it in reverse tends to do bad things to the crown and pinion it usually wont break then and there but it will put stress fractures in and then when you go hard in the normal direction or do another recovery/trailer push/something that takes a little more effort than backing out of the coles carpark it'll let go.

yep aggree with the shock loading but works same for the rear diff as well shock load that and something will break (normally the short axle)
you can,and I have recovered many a stuck 110 with a reverse pull not no major shock loading to the front axle...

in the same vein the carrier pin for the center gear can also let go in exactly the same manner. and then you have large metal bits just meandering around in an area where there are large heavy bits of steel getting spun around by plenty of power and sometimes at quite the rate of knots and we all know the end result of that.

The single pin center should be thrown away there as week as ...also as an aside some one said in this thred "reverse is the weakest gear" I disaggree totaly its the strongest gear in a manual box

Tihis is Tony by the way (Panda made me put that in)

[GrahamH]

Aaron, to address your query about joining the main strap to the equaliser strap, and whether you should use a shackle, (in my opinion) you did exactly the right thing in avoiding the use of a shackle. The equaliser strap appears to have a sleeve around it to protect it from being chafed by the eye in the main strap and this should be a perfectly satisfactory arrangement.

Also the equaliser strap is long enough that the angle at the point of pull (between the two arms of the equaliser strap) appears to be way less than 90º which is good. If the strap is too short, the angle is too large and the main strap tends to pull the two chassis rails on the recovered vehicle towards each other (crushing the spreader rail) which is very bad.

In general, it is my opinion that that one should never use a shackle to join two ropes or straps subject to a shock loading like that in a recovery. If one of the components breaks the shackle becomes a missile, which, as Dave rightly points out would be preferable to to receive into the rear door than through the front windscreen (so tow with the rear end if you can). If you need to join two ropes it is better to use an appropriate knot or splice or to intertwine two splices loops with a piece of low mass material in the centre (which can be pulled out afterwards to release the join) than use a shackle.

If using a shackle becomes unavoidable (as can happen sometimes out bush with limited resources), at least put a piece of carpet or a sack or even a large coat over it to act as a damper if the worst happens and it gets launched into the air - the damper will slow it down and remove most of it's energy (with luck).

There will always be something that someone will tell you that you could have done better but I think you did a good job here.

[George130]

I did wonder about how high it looked on the Defender but decided it must have been the picture. Get the recovery hooks mounted on the chassis rails if you can.

[Blknight.aus]

ohhh this reeks of a can of worms......

the front axles are a mite weaker up front than down the back but thats just the nature of making a steering live front axle you can make it tougher but that usually means more weight and more expense.

Hi Dave, yep aggree up to a point..takeing it as we have two standered rover diffs theres not much differance in strength between the two..

(read the red bit again)

the big killer is once the diff gets bedded in operating in its normal direction working it hard in reverse or shock loading it in reverse tends to do bad things to the crown and pinion it usually wont break then and there but it will put stress fractures in and then when you go hard in the normal direction or do another recovery/trailer push/something that takes a little more effort than backing out of the coles carpark it'll let go.

yep aggree with the shock loading but works same for the rear diff as well shock load that and something will break (normally the short axle)

the shortest axle is the front right halfshaft that heads into the Cv joint on that side. when you load up and bog down trying to do a snatch the side(front or rear) thats hooked up usually diggs in harder letting the leading side spin more easily this is to do with basic weight transfer and the fact that most times your pulling downwards on the recovery point as the stuck vehicle is usually lower than your recovery point, this adds weight to the wheels that are closest. More weight generally means more traction which means less likelyhood of slippage which means more stress on the driveline. if your pulling in reverse your now using the shortest axle and putting it in the situation where it is likely to be exposed to the maximum amount of torque you can generate and as is already pointed out its usually the short axle that breaks.

you can,and I have recovered many a stuck 110 with a reverse pull not no major shock loading to the front axle... no arguments here so have I but theres a world of difference between what you should do and what you can do. I can kill people, doesnt mean that I should.

in the same vein the carrier pin for the center gear can also let go in exactly the same manner. and then you have large metal bits just meandering around in an area where there are large heavy bits of steel getting spun around by plenty of power and sometimes at quite the rate of knots and we all know the end result of that.

The single pin center should be thrown away there as week as ...also as an aside some one said in this thred "reverse is the weakest gear" I disaggree totaly its the strongest gear in a manual box they're not [THAT bad but they couldve been better and there is a 6 gear center available

it might be the lowest ratio in the box but its not the strongest. The strongest gear is 4th gear (or whichever gear is the direct coupling of the input shaft to the output shaft in your box). Dont confuse strength with gear reductions. Talking generically (not just rover boxes) Reverse gear is also usualy square cut as its a sliding mesh gear and not a helical cut constant mesh gear. As such it has much smaller tooth contact areas, that makes the reverse gears weaker in the same way and for the same reason that 10 spline axles suffer more spline wear than 24 spline axles. The biggest thing going for reverse gear is that it minimises thrust loading on the layshaft and the output shaft of the gearbox


Tihis is Tony by the way (Panda made me put that in)

in all seriousness Id love to hear why you think reverse gear is strongest and what method you use to reverse recover.

[100I]

A bit of telecom rope would've pulled it off wet grass:D.

My gutlux work ute is much the same model; at the house I just sold I regularly had to air down just to get up the concrete driveway when it rained.:(

[Blknight.aus]

I might get a rectangle plate made up to act as a big washer to spread the load.

Do you mean these holes?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/02/491.jpg

I have seen on a website (which I can't find ATM) a plate that bolts up to those holes with an eye loop welded on it. But from the pictures they look alarmingly small, and I couldnt find a load rating.

Just had a look on Expeditionechange.com. Interesting page - https://www.expeditionexchange.com/dixonbate/

The 5t one id like on the back.

those are exactly the 6 holes im talking about...

a 7/16th diameter grade 10 bolt has a shear load rating of well over 2t and providing its got enough threads gripping and a suitable washer under the head to prevent pull through has a tensile load of over 4t.

Ive seen the plates and a similar one is on the back of some patrols as a standard recovery point.. IF one of them can handle one of those overladen easily bogged elephants a tractionally disadvantaged deefer should be no dramas for it.

why not make one? a chunk of suitabley drilled 10mm plate with a structually welded lifting eye (available from some rigging shops premade + prepped for welding) in the center whould give you plenty.

[Aaron]

I haven't welded since high school days... so 4.5 years, although from memory I was an A student, I don't trust my ability.

Is a 5t rated shackle thing (one on expeditionexchange) Strong enough for say me recovering a laden Patrol?

Although after taking my car for a road worthy today and been belittled twice in the same day about owning a LR Im not much in the mood to pull anyone else out atm. I know thats not in the true spirit of things.

If the Haymen reace thing is the ultimate. What would I be looking at brand new? fitted?

[Aaron]

A bit of telecom rope would've pulled it off wet grass:D.

My gutlux work ute is much the same model; at the house I just sold I regularly had to air down just to get up the concrete driveway when it rained.:(

They are gutlux.... But show me a car as reliable as it is!

To start with yeah it would have been. By the time I hooked the Defender up to it, the diff was almost touching the ground, and the front wheels were also sicking in purely because of how soft the ground was.

It didn't require to much throttle to get it out though.

[Blknight.aus]

that would be why I reccomended a structural weld.. that'd be almost any welding and fabricatoin shop. making it shouldnt cost you more than say $120...


I have no idea what a reece bar is worth I made them put one on as part of buying the vehicle..

and as for the reliabiltiy thing if you look very very closely in the picture that you provided in the first post of the thread there on the left hand side of the picture you can just sort of make out the front end of such a vehicle... its the one on the single side of the tow strap.

[Aaron]

lol. We will see I guess. Ive only had it for a few months. Ive had the hilux since my L plates.

Now for my second question.

If you drop mountain climbing hardwear on the ground it is thrown in the bin. Is it the same for shackles?

[100I]

lol. We will see I guess. Ive only had it for a few months. Ive had the hilux since my L plates.

Now for my second question.

If you drop mountain climbing hardwear on the ground it is thrown in the bin. Is it the same for shackles?

You should get your gear all messy as soon as you can, like christening new shoes when you were a boy:D.

No seriously, try to keep the strap clean, the dirt is abrasive.
Can't see dropping a shackle hurting it, it's going to get shocked a lot worse (unless you somehow drop it from a great height, then you should just walk away whistling)

[GrahamH]

A point of interest about buying shackles (correct me if I'm wrong anyone) is that, for a given pin size, a bow shackle has a higher Safe Working Load than a D-shackle. Being rounder they're a bit harder to store but the higher rating is worth the effort.

Also, for recovery kit, only buy shackles with ratings stamped on them - don't ever buy galvanised mild steel shackles for recovery (especially Chinese ones). The bigger the pin diameter the bigger the rating of course, but also when using shackles to attach a rope or strap to a vehicle recovery point (the only place it is appropriate to use them as they should never be able to become a missile in that situation) the bigger the pin diameter, the less stress is placed on the eye of the rope or strap because it's bent around in a bigger circle.

Excellent points, Dave, about gearboxes and strength and forward versus reverse recovery and diff stressing. Obviously these points become more important the more immobilised the invalid vehicle is and they're moot rather points when we talk about a light vehicle stuck on wet grass, but it's certainly given me food for thought.

[dobbo]

I could not see it posted, why did you use a shackle on the recovery hook? Wouldn't the strap suffice? A shackle is a mounting point as are the recovery hooks. Why double up? If your hook failed a strap giving away at force is bad enough, with a shackle on the end it is very dangerous. Chassis can still bend but are a lot stronger than bullbars, in theory anyway.

[tombraider]

I was told it was ok to put hooks there. Bastards!
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/04/402.jpg

I dont have a rear tow bar/or recovery points. I want rear recovery points, but dont want a rear two bar.

I wasnt aware of the reverse gear things though, thanks.

The Equaliser strap is attached with two 3.25 shackles to the back of the Hilux.

Sounds as though im lucky it was bogged down deeper.

Thanks for your advice!

Mate, I hate to say it...

But someone stole half the info off your number plate:wasntme:

[Blknight.aus]

A

Excellent points, Dave, about gearboxes and strength and forward versus reverse recovery and diff stressing. Obviously these points become more important the more immobilised the invalid vehicle is and they're moot rather points when we talk about a light vehicle stuck on wet grass, but it's certainly given me food for thought.

have a dig around on the forum for the maths involved in working out the forces involved in recovery and just how quickly a "lightly" stuck light vehicle (which a lolux isnt at 1.4-1.7t depending on options) becomes a major working force on a vehicle.

[Aaron]

I could not see it posted, why did you use a shackle on the recovery hook? Wouldn't the strap suffice? A shackle is a mounting point as are the recovery hooks. Why double up? If your hook failed a strap giving away at force is bad enough, with a shackle on the end it is very dangerous. Chassis can still bend but are a lot stronger than bullbars, in theory anyway.

Thankyou for your question. It never even crossed my mind to be honest. I see people oppinions on this. Shackle or no shackle ?


Mate, I hate to say it...

But someone stole half the info off your number plate:wasntme:

hah... Thankyou :)

[tombraider]

Thankyou for your question. It never even crossed my mind to be honest. I see people oppinions on this. Shackle or no shackle ?



Standard riggers response...

"Dont add unnecessary........" (complexity/risk etc. etc.)

If you dont need it (eg a shackle on a hook) dont do it...

:cool:

[Aaron]

Today purchases include....

Rear recovery point and backing plate.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/03/618.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/03/619.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/02/373.jpg


Backing plates for my front hooks.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/02/374.jpg







The problem is the backing plate for the recovery point, is 3/8th thinck (5mm?) having looked at the rear cross member this morning there isnt enough room for a human hair. As the plate is an option, is it REALLY needed?

Is there a way to get in to the cross member to fix the plate in there? It appears to be just your normal box section.

Yes I know I should of checked it. It was in the Defender section on expeditionexchange.com and just assumed it would be ok.