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Frontier1
10th February 2008, 01:40 PM
Hi,

Doesn't seem to be much activity in this section so my post may go un-noticed. However.....

I have decided to get rid of my dual fuel v8i Discovery 1993, auto and get myself a 300tdi auto.

I'm doing this because now that lpg is also going up in price $0.76 at the moment, I think, no I KNOW, that I now want to run on Biodiesel and make it myself.

I have been reading up on the various processes and have recently completed some successful batches initially using the "Dr pepper" technique.

But I have decided to move forward with making it with ethanol and KOH rather than methanol and NaOH.

I have found a great method for doing this and will be trying it over the next few days and posting my results. Hopefully this will be of interest to move than just me.

The recipe I have means that apart from filtering the oil at the very start, there is no further need to filter the oil since with ethanol there is no separation within the waste oil. The ethanol both keeps everything in suspension as well as creating a viscosity that is still burnable and this formula is one that will also keep the glycerine in liquid form and not gel.

As I said I will do some test batches with this formula first and even if successful I would still want to put an additional filter between the tank and the engine just in case.;)

On a side note (but important one), if anyone knows of a good secondhand 300tdi <pre 2000 I guess>, please let me know.

Cheers, Pete'

tombraider
10th February 2008, 01:52 PM
Remember too, that council etc need to be aware of your 'lab'

You don't want your neighbours reporting 'funny smells' from the shed either, a raid can really spoil your day!!!;)

And your home insurance needs to be notified or you'll be null and void should something go wrong!

Frontier1
10th February 2008, 02:09 PM
Hi Tombraider,

I'm gunna use my "rural estate", so with my nearest neighbour being 12k's away I doubt "funny smells" will be a problem.

I'm in the food, catering and soap making business so having methylated spirits and potash (potassium hydroxide) is neither illegal nor is it necessary to tell the council about it.(nor is mixing the two by the way).

While I'm not 100% on the next point, this is not a "commercial" enterprise so making a few liters of fuel for my car should not attract the govt. in regard to excise (but I'm not sure) and in regards to insurance, well if my old shed were to go up (very unlikely since these product are much less volatile than methanol and Caustic Soda), insurance wouldn't cover it anyway.

But I appreciate where you are coming from if this was a built-up residential area.:D

Cheers,
Pete'

Four Boar
11th February 2008, 04:12 PM
:eek:Im very interested, am awaiting the updated results.

Blknight.aus
11th February 2008, 06:29 PM
im interested as well. Ive run a rover on the really primative version of bio being simple filtered and heat dewatered WVO.

Phantum
12th February 2008, 03:11 PM
I will be very interested in the results.

100I
12th February 2008, 07:38 PM
I'm interested. I'm thinking & doing the exact same thing as you ATM, looking for a pristine 300 and doing all the homework I can. I've been surprised there hasn't been more interest generated in this Bio forum.

Frontier1
12th February 2008, 09:09 PM
Hi All,

I thought while I finish getting my reactor together and other parts, ingredients, etc., I might provide some more background on how I am hoping the "MF" as it is also known, works.

Sorry for the length of this but I hope some of this post will be useful knowledge. Thanks to to the various sources where I scavenged this information...

This formula just needs to be multiplied with however many liters of WVO ( Waste Vegetable Oil), you have.

1 liter of oil (WVO not new oil)
250 ml of Ethanol
4 grams of KoH (Potassium Hydroxide)

200 proof denatured Ethanol, (see note on this further down),as anything less will possibly have water, and that will effect your mixture and reaction, otherwise just heat to 55C, agitate well and thats it, you are finished, filter again and pour it into your tank and off you go...

Very important** You must filter your oil before you start the process to get rid of chunks of food, breadcrumbs, bugs, etc. Also you must heat it to 65 celcius make sure that it is not carrying any extra water.

This sounds too simple I hear you say. One of the things that happens when you use methanol to make BD is that it makes the FFA's, etc., "drop" down in the reactor to the bottom where you can then drain off this dark mix that contains the FFA's, methanol, glycerine, etc.

"Gelling" (where the BD hardens in cold temps), will not happen with the eth' & KOH formula or I should say it will go much lower before gelling because it has more alcohol than the standard mix with methanol.....In regards to the excess ethanol, this formula gives about 9% excess ethanol in the fuel to suspend the glycerine. This fits in well with some governments mandating 10% ethanol in the petrol and diesel. In fact, 10% was what was used in Diesohol.

However, that does not mean that the Ethanol mixture is not thicker (lower viscosity) as it is.......
What we have is not a complete reaction but a partial reaction where all ingredients ( KOH, oil, and Ethanol) are in equalibrium, and therefore can be burned in most diesel engines, without any problems...

What is also happening is that a substantial amount of the oil gets converted into esters, good fuel, liberating a substantial amount of glycerine. The ester fuel is a better solvent for ethanol than is the original oil so the excess ethanol goes into solution. The good solvent properties of ethanol keep the glycerine, soap and glycerides all in solution.

Note on Ethanol*

You can buy 100% ethanol but you can make it in others ways.

The first and by far the cheapest way is to make your own Valve reflux still which will get you to 95% proof. To get the last 4% or so, take the 95% and put it through a filter. You could use dehydration with lime but I was thinking that in order to get the eth' up to "almost" pure, you could make a simple rock salt filter as the ethanol will pass through but the salt will "grab" the water, leaving you with 98/99%+ eth'.

Or you could use Zeolite, as a molecular sieve which is naturally negatively charged and therefor will grab the positively charged water molecule on the way through. It is available both as a man-made and natural mineral.

The best with both the salt and the Zeolite is that when they are "full" of water you simply have to put them out in the sun to dry and then you can reuse it again!

For those that might want to know what the analysis of the natural Zeolite is, here you go:
Particle Specific Gravity (whole rock) ~2.3T/m3
Ambient Moisture Nominal < 5%
Hardness (MHO’S SCALE) ~5.0
Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) meq/100g ANZ38 powder 147 average

Minerals Present
Major Clinoplilolite (w% of the total Zeolite content) 85 %
Other Mordenite (w% of the total Zeolite content) 15%
Minor Quartz, Felspar, Montmorillonite
Mineral Content %
Si O2 (Silicon Dioxide) 71.81
Al2O3 (Aluminium Oxide) 12.10
Fe2O3 (Iron Oxide) 1.14
Na2O (Sodium Oxide) 2.33
K2O (Potassium Oxide) 0.90

Selected trace elements occur in minor quantities expressed as ppm.
CaO (Calcium Oxide) 2.60 Ba (Barium) 10
MgO (Magnesium Oxide) 0.65 Co (Cobalt) 1.2
TiO2 (Titanium Dioxide) 0.22 Cr (Chromium) 35
MnO (Manganese Oxide) 0.03 (Selenium) <1
P2O5 (Phosphorus Pentoxide) < .01 Cu (Copper) 19
SrO (Strontium Oxide) 0.22 Zn (Zinc) 33
Loss on Ignition 7.77 P (Phosphorus) 187


OK. Umm, what else... The still that I am making produces about 10-20ltr of 95% eth' in about 6 hours and at the rate specified will allow you to react about 80 liters of finished fuel at a time if you are in a rush. Or you can store a few batches for making 200-300 ltrs at a go.

Remember too that with the methanol method you are normally discarding about 20% of your mixture at the end but with the ethanol blend there is no discarding of anything and it therefor gives you an extra 20-25% usable fuel.

As noted in my previous posting, I would still want an additional filter in between the tank and the engine.

There is still some testing to be done:

1 How much salt/zeolite is required to filter a batch of 95% eth'?
2 Once saturated, how long will the filter take to dry before reuse?
3 If you don't want to make a still, will the filter work on say methylated spirits which is already 95% ethanol?

There is a bunch of other things I'm sure that I need to address but I just wanted to let you know where I am at.

I have a couple of test pics too that show the methanol method (just as a reference), I have done in bottles and will post these once I work out how to get them from my damn phone to the pc!:D

Cheers, Pete'

tannery
18th February 2008, 06:46 PM
Hi,

Doesn't seem to be much activity in this section so my post may go un-noticed. However.....

I have decided to get rid of my dual fuel v8i Discovery 1993, auto and get myself a 300tdi auto.

I'm doing this because now that lpg is also going up in price $0.76 at the moment, I think, no I KNOW, that I now want to run on Biodiesel and make it myself.

I have been reading up on the various processes and have recently completed some successful batches initially using the "Dr pepper" technique.

But I have decided to move forward with making it with ethanol and KOH rather than methanol and NaOH.

I have found a great method for doing this and will be trying it over the next few days and posting my results. Hopefully this will be of interest to move than just me.

The recipe I have means that apart from filtering the oil at the very start, there is no further need to filter the oil since with ethanol there is no separation within the waste oil. The ethanol both keeps everything in suspension as well as creating a viscosity that is still burnable and this formula is one that will also keep the glycerine in liquid form and not gel.

As I said I will do some test batches with this formula first and even if successful I would still want to put an additional filter between the tank and the engine just in case.;)

On a side note (but important one), if anyone knows of a good secondhand 300tdi <pre 2000 I guess>, please let me know.

Cheers, Pete'

Pete,

the way your original note reads.. you give the impression that the Ethanol will keep the glycerine by-product liquid.. I think you'll find that its the KOH that does this.. 65C is the boiling point of Methanol, and don't heat oil greater than this temp. I have done so accidentally.. it wastes the Methanol, as you see it bubble off.... btw 78C for Ethanol (its boiling point).. so you should be bale to heat up to that.. 78C would also detach the water from the oil...

good luck with your trail batches.. am interested to hear how you are going..

regards,
Paul.

Frontier1
18th February 2008, 09:08 PM
Pete,

the way your original note reads.. you give the impression that the Ethanol will keep the glycerine by-product liquid.. I think you'll find that its the KOH that does this.. 65C is the boiling point of Methanol, and don't heat oil greater than this temp. I have done so accidentally.. it wastes the Methanol, as you see it bubble off.... btw 78C for Ethanol (its boiling point).. so you should be bale to heat up to that.. 78C would also detach the water from the oil...

good luck with your trail batches.. am interested to hear how you are going..

regards,
Paul.

Hi Paul,

You raise an interesting point, however if this was true then would not those that use KOH and methanol Instead of NaOH and methanol end up with batches where the glycerine does not 'drop' to the bottom of the tank?

The glycerine only seems to stay in suspension with ethanol, UNLESS... the ethanol combined with the KOH does what you say it does. Again though that would lead to the ethanol being the player that keeps everything in suspension.

It might be worthwhile making a trial batch <1 or 2ltrs>, with ethanol and NaOH and see what transpires?



I have also noted that our Australian versions of methalated spirits <MS>, is quite different to the US versions since ours are 95 ethanol and the other 5 is a mixture of Methyl isobutyl ketone, fluorescein, methyl alcohol or denatonium and where only a small percent of this will be water. Since the water content is much lower than in the states versions, my tests indicate 'SO FAR', that one can successfully use our standard Metho'.

The cost however is $1.88 per ltr MS compared to $1.23 for methanol. But the upside is that with ethanol <250ml per ltr waste oil>, you don't have any waste that needs to be discarded whereas with methanol you are discarding the 250ml of methanol <that you add to every ltr of waste oil>, and the glycerine, etc that 'drop' to the bottom of the tank. Calculations aren't precise but in effect you are ending up with 25% more burnable fuel at the end of the day.

Oh, the other upside is of'coarse that you don't need special storage facilities for MS but you do for methanol AND you can't buy methanol at your local hardware store:D

Anyway, thanks for the interest Paul, I should have some more test notes up soon.


Cheers, Pete'

tannery
19th February 2008, 07:55 AM
Hi Paul,

You raise an interesting point, however if this was true then would not those that use KOH and methanol Instead of NaOH and methanol end up with batches where the glycerine does not 'drop' to the bottom of the tank?

The glycerine only seems to stay in suspension with ethanol, UNLESS... the ethanol combined with the KOH does what you say it does. Again though that would lead to the ethanol being the player that keeps everything in suspension.

It might be worthwhile making a trial batch <1 or 2ltrs>, with ethanol and NaOH and see what transpires?



I have also noted that our Australian versions of methalated spirits <MS>, is quite different to the US versions since ours are 95 ethanol and the other 5 is a mixture of Methyl isobutyl ketone, fluorescein, methyl alcohol or denatonium and where only a small percent of this will be water. Since the water content is much lower than in the states versions, my tests indicate 'SO FAR', that one can successfully use our standard Metho'.

The cost however is $1.88 per ltr MS compared to $1.23 for methanol. But the upside is that with ethanol <250ml per ltr waste oil>, you don't have any waste that needs to be discarded whereas with methanol you are discarding the 250ml of methanol <that you add to every ltr of waste oil>, and the glycerine, etc that 'drop' to the bottom of the tank. Calculations aren't precise but in effect you are ending up with 25% more burnable fuel at the end of the day.

Oh, the other upside is of'coarse that you don't need special storage facilities for MS but you do for methanol AND you can't buy methanol at your local hardware store:D

Anyway, thanks for the interest Paul, I should have some more test notes up soon.


Cheers, Pete'


hang on....

we don't want glycerine in the mix.. glycerine is bad.

go here --> Welcome - Collaborative Biodiesel Tutorial Website (http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/)

the aim of making biodiesel is to thin the WVO (Waste Veggie Oil) by getting rid of the glycerine.. through separation. suspension, means its still there.. this is bad.

a definition of bad = ruins engines.

if you want to use SVO (straight veggie oil) - which has glycerine in it) then this is a different set-up.. heaters, etc..

cheers,

Paul.

Frontier1
19th February 2008, 08:21 AM
Hi Paul,

I know the site you are referring to me but it doesn't discuss making bd with ethanol only methanol. I know that with methanol you need to get rid of the glycerine, that's not the case with ethanol and quite a few people are making it this way.

Try Ethanol resources on the Web: Journey to Forever (http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#ethylester)
or
Making Biodiesel with Ethanol - Forum Powered by eve community (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/9601000031)
or
Australian Ethanol Discussion - Bio Fuels Forums (http://www.biofuelsforum.com/australian_ethanol_discussion/)

I understand that for many, the idea of not taking out the glycerine is a BAD idea and it reminds me a bit of those that are for washing and those that say it's not needed.

I'll see if I can dig up the chemical explaination <got it here somewhere>, for why the glycerine is not required to come out when using ethanol and post it up.

The origins of this method by the way are from OCH's Master Formula.

Cheers, Pete'

Frontier1
19th February 2008, 08:23 AM
Oh just as a postscript, even though I have both spoken and written to a few people who are doing it this way, we still intend to trial it on some farm equipment and generators first.

Pete'

tannery
19th February 2008, 03:39 PM
Hi Paul,

I know the site you are referring to me but it doesn't discuss making bd with ethanol only methanol. I know that with methanol you need to get rid of the glycerine, that's not the case with ethanol and quite a few people are making it this way.

Try Ethanol resources on the Web: Journey to Forever (http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#ethylester)
or
Making Biodiesel with Ethanol - Forum Powered by eve community (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/9601000031)
or
Australian Ethanol Discussion - Bio Fuels Forums (http://www.biofuelsforum.com/australian_ethanol_discussion/)

I understand that for many, the idea of not taking out the glycerine is a BAD idea and it reminds me a bit of those that are for washing and those that say it's not needed.

I'll see if I can dig up the chemical explaination <got it here somewhere>, for why the glycerine is not required to come out when using ethanol and post it up.

The origins of this method by the way are from OCH's Master Formula.

Cheers, Pete'

thanks for th additional links.. interesting reading.

I found step 8 on the following link interesting ("they" do say a separation occurs)

Ethanol resources on the Web: Journey to Forever (http://www.journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#ethylester)

sound like Ethanol based separation is tough.. I won't be doing it.. I've got my process is pretty well sorted, now.. btw - I can stuff up my biodiesel batch (by my own laziness, mis-reading, etc) using Methanol.. so I don't need to complicate it with using Ethanol..

by my reading, you don't want glycerine in the final product... but as I Sadi earlier, that's how I'm reading the material...

good luck!!

regards,
Paul.

Frontier1
22nd February 2008, 06:22 AM
Well, I just did the first test batches of Ethanol BD and it has come out a treat, NO separation needed, NO glycerine removal, NO washing, NO waste to discard and the genny runs BEAUTIFULLY on it.:D

Will keep testing using this formula in the genny for a while, probably about two weeks to see what happens. It goes into the truck next, probably at 20% for a few tanks, then 50%, then 80%, then 100%. New filters installed before we start then inspection after every tank.

All good so far, we'll see how things progress but I'm very happy at the moment.:cool:

Pete'

Outlaw
22nd February 2008, 06:52 AM
Well done Pete... watching with interest ;)

Frontier1
24th February 2008, 06:36 PM
Hi All,

I have thought about putting in a single or twin filter between the EBD (Ethanol-Bio-Diesel), storage tank and the hand pump before it gets to the car/farm-vehicle/genny, etc.

My thinking is whether you are a WVO, MBD or EBD user, it's still all about filtering before it gets to the ignition chamber right? The more clumps, lumps and bumps you filter out, the better (hassle free), your burn will be.

So, I am thinking of putting a CAV dual fuel filter assembly using 2 Baldwin BF825 filters with adaptor barb fittings 1/2in port thread to 3/8 fuel hose from the initial storage tank (approx 1000 ltrs), into a smaller tank (say 250ltr). This is before it gets to the pump that I use to fill the fuel tank of whatever engine.

My question is, I want at least a 20 - 10 - 5 micron filter to push the fuel through before I actually use it. I notice most of the diesel filters do not specify micron sizing. ( I notice petrol/oil filters don't do that either!).

Can anyone point me in the right direction of micron sizing of various diesel ( or other), filters?

Cheers,

Pete'

Oh, ps. Genny still going strong after 74 hours :D

plugma
6th March 2008, 03:45 PM
Hi Folks,

Good to see some alternative experimentation happening, but in the whole scheme of things... I'm just not sure that it's worth the effort.

I have been making bio for 5 years now using Methanol and potasium hydroxide.

In all of that time, I have only had 1 bad batch and that was because I did'nt dewater it properly (got lazy!!)

I properly titrate the oil (every single batch) use around 15% Methanol, heat the mix to around 50C and agitate for around 20 minutes. I also only use liquid oils like cotton seed, canola etc and avoid using the solids that accumulate in the bottom of the drums.

I let it settle out for at least 10 days and then pass it through a 5 micron sock filter before it goes into storage.

Now... here's a few facts!

I run B100 in three different vehicles including my 1997 D1 300Tdi. I have another vehicle that has done 70K on bio without any problems. I rebuilt an engine in another of my vehicles and this has done over 40K without ever seeing any Dino diesel. Again, without any pump or engine problems.

The person who taught me how to make bio all those years ago has an MQ Patrol which has done around 230K on Bio without any problems. They recently took the head of it and found that the bores have vitually no ridging and the hone marks in the cylinders are still clearly evident. There was no carbon build up anywhere with just a very fine layer of powder gray/black as you would find in any diesel engine.

The Bio I make is good down to 2C before it just starts to wax and I can take it down as far as my freezer goes (-22). When it thaws above 2C, it clears back to it's normal crystal clear self. If I mix it with Dino, the wax point drops to around 0.5C.

The glycerine is always liquid and easy to seperate and handle. For many years it simply bio degraded in the back yard and compost heaps. I now keep it because I am thinking about building a vacuum still to refine it.

Other than collecting the oil from my suppliers, it takes less than 1 hour to make 180L and costs me around 18 cents/L. There is simply no noticable difference in engine performance, the engines run noticeably quieter but economy is down by about 4% on average.

BTW, I never strain any of my oil as the solids simply fall out into the glycerine over the ten day settling period.

I know a thing or 2 about engines and pumps and I'm still not convinced that the suspended ethanol mix is going to be good for it, particularly if there is going to be glycerine present.

I think you will find that most off the shelf filters will vary anywhere between 5-30 micron.

Still will be watching proceedings with a great deal of interest....

Keep the information coming.

Regards
M.

kingyrules
28th March 2008, 04:17 PM
Hi All,

My question is, I want at least a 20 - 10 - 5 micron filter to push the fuel through before I actually use it. I notice most of the diesel filters do not specify micron sizing. ( I notice petrol/oil filters don't do that either!).

Can anyone point me in the right direction of micron sizing of various diesel ( or other), filters?

Cheers,

Pete'

Oh, ps. Genny still going strong after 74 hours :D



Hi pete not sure if this helps but i work at a plumbing supply place and i've noticed that most if not all water filters "not a plug" like aquapure, have a micron size on them from 25 to 5 maybe even lower (don't quote me havn't looked into it) and although there not cheap its food for thought.:)

David

Frontier1
28th March 2008, 07:04 PM
Hi David,

Have only just checked back on the site, have been away for a while but I can let everyone know that the genny is still fine and next week we move over to a forklift and then one of the trucks. Thanks for the tip on water filters, I might get one anyway and see how long it takes to let 100 liters through, worth a shot I reckon!

The genny and it's filter is looking good but I would still like to get a "sock" filter as Plugma referred to, but everytime I walk into a auto shop and ask for one, the bloke behind the counter takes his shoe off and says that his has a hole in it so it's no good.

Someone want to tell me where I can get a “5 micron sock filter” without the wise cracks and maybe tell me what they are actually called not the “common” term.

I also thought that Plugma's post underlined what I had thought anyway and that is that diesel vehicles will run on almost anything. Having said that, the reason why I am running my blend (ethanol with no dewatering apart from at the start when heating to 60) through a range of motors is so that I can see if anything happens to either filters/injectors/motors in different things over a period of time.

I'm sorry I have been away from this part of the forum for some time but rest assured I have not forgotten about this, especially since the idea of an ethanol mix without either "washing" or taking/settling the glycerine out is held in a positive view by the minority if at all.

Also want to thank Dave for suggesting to me a way of running a "testbench injector" in order to see the results of petro-diesel against EBD ( Ethanol-Bio-Diesel). I agree with his thoughts too that an injector will run even if not "on spec".

The question is, does it matter if an injector is "off spec'" and still be good for 100-200-300-400K's and offset that against the saving of fuel (my formula is 32 cents p/l instead of $1.54 p/l ), over the same amount of k's. It then comes down to how many liters you use a year and times that by say $1.30.

Time will tell, so far the results here are good.

Anyway, forklift & truck next, then a jap diesel, then td5.

Glad to see there is still some interest.

Cheers, Pete'

philco
6th April 2008, 05:25 PM
I am interested to know if you can make bio diesel without the chemical method and by filtration only, is there any info available please?

Frontier1
6th April 2008, 10:57 PM
Hi Philco,

What you are probably looking for then is the WVO or SVO method although some still use a chemically binded product.
Check out Biodiesel & SVO Forums - Powered by eve community (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/cfrm/f/898605551)

It should answer most if not all your questions.

Cheers, Pete'

isuzurover
8th April 2008, 03:34 PM
Very interesting - just found this.

Something to watch with ethanol (so I have been told by refinery chemists), is that it will dissolve water into oil, but when you get to saturation levels - ALL the water will come out of solution. This could be a worry if you have water that comes out of solution anywhere in the system.

Might be worth testing by adding water to a sample.

As for the filters - micron ratings are a bit of a misnomer - filters are NOT sieves, so the micron rating of a filter is USUALLY the size at which it will remove 50% of particles. So a 25 micron filter could still let 5% or so of 50 micron particles through.

Most diesel fuel filters are 5-15 micron rated. Engine oil filters more like 25-50 micron.

EchiDna
8th April 2008, 06:37 PM
the real reason I bought a 4BD1 :)

DIY biodiesel!

haven't done it yet, but I know you can buy 0.2 micron water filters pretty simply from any decent produce store (used for virus removal from tank water). if you go down this road, I would advise that a pre filter should be used in front of the fine filter....

Frontier1
13th April 2008, 03:44 PM
Hi Ben,

Thanx for the heads up on the filters.

I understand that the lower the number the better but I am still waiting for someone (anyone!) to tell me what a "sock" filter is and what they look like since everyone seems to refer to them all the time. See my earlier post on what happened when I asked for one:D

Saturation levels for water dropping out of Ethanol are quite high. I can't imagine where the water would get into the BD after it is poured into the tank unless there was some major engine cooling problem and if that happened I think you would have more to worry about than water in the fuel!:p

My ethanol is 99.7%+ pure (lab tested) so an awful amount of water would need to get in. I make sure the oil is water free before blending with the Eth' and then it goes straight into storage before being pumped into the tank.

EchiDna, I wonder whether oil will pass through a .2 filter. Even if as Ben says that filters are a 50% average, then even at .4/.5, it might take quite a while for the oil to pass through. A test would be worthwhile though so at least we know. I'll pick up one this week and let you know the results.

Philco, Did the info' help out? Oh and BTW, love the avatar!

Cheers, Pete'

Frontier1
17th April 2008, 09:21 PM
Now the worst part is that I still got a heap of other vehicles to get through before I can put it in my TD5!

But still, so far so good with genny, forklift and currently mates truck. (isuzu I think from memory)
:D

Pete'

graceysdad
17th April 2008, 10:09 PM
From what I have been reading on using recycled oil in Diesos is that there are probs with smoke and viscosity issues, I came across a company that makes a simple heat exchanger you connect into your heater pipes and it appaerently thins the oil and eliminates smoke and other issues, I have seen diesels run on coconut oil but the extraction process is difficult and expensive, I am seriously considering fitting a Tojo 4 cyl dieso into my old Series 1 and fitting a heat exchanger and some decent filters and give the oil a go, I can get plenty oil for nix just need to strain it, Ihave to retain the original fuel tank and use this for diesel fuel as I think its best to start on diesel and when the operating temp is normal switch to the cooking oil, specially in winter time here when solidification could be an issue, I have heard you can also fit an element into the tank to handle this problem, I think of it this way Petrol will never be under a dollar again it will only go up, LPG has to remain half the price of fuel so its creeping up too, so I can still have the looks and style of the old Series but with modern diesel technology and costing bugger all to run, untill later when someone cons onto it and they ban used cooking oil from being sold or used, always someone who is the party pooper.

Frontier1
11th June 2008, 07:36 PM
Hi All,

Well we are getting close! Everything that we have tried the fuel in is still working, filters replaced for new, periodically checked, etc, etc.

It is now soon time to try our ethanol BD in my 2001 TD5.

Before I do this though I just wanted to check with anyone that might know, whether there are any hoses/seals that need to be replaced prior to BD use. I know with earlier models that some hoses which were rubber had to be swapped out with a different type of hose (type?), but not so sure with later model LR's.

Cheers, Pete'

aussiefx
19th June 2008, 08:43 PM
Pete,

Not sure if I'll get in trouble for posting a link but if you go to telepoint.biz the guy there has various "sock" filters and other bits and bobs. I've just placed an order so if you want to wait a few days I'll be able to tell you more about them.

Cheers,
Andy

tannery
27th June 2008, 05:29 PM
from what I understand, currently the answer is "no - for home brewers"..

the methanol is the material that reacts with the veggie oil to strip the glycerine out... my understanding is its the adding of KOH, or NaOH, is the catalyst to speed up the reaction.

There have been demonstrations of using high voltage such as 5,000 V DC (current limited, of course) .. to strip the remainder of glycerine. makes fascinating watching... Electrostatic separation of glycerol from biodiesel (http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/nr.htm)

hope that helps.

biodiesel bob...
:)

bdicko
22nd July 2008, 09:31 AM
G'day guys,
I am new member.
Have s3 1976 LWB, holden 202 petrol.
You display advanced knowledge in fuels.
Can you tell me the problems, if any , of using Ethanol 10 in regular fuel to run in my landy?
I use the additive to protect the valves since super fuel was taken off the market.
I also have a Holden 186 motor in the garage.
In Good Faith
BDicko

Frontier1
22nd July 2008, 09:43 AM
Hi and welcome to the forum,

I can only tell you what I know about the E10 and I have used it in my '93 Disco without dramas. What others are using I only know from what I've read and that is that others overseas are using the E85 without problems.


Anyone else know any different?

Pete'

mic.p
23rd July 2008, 06:25 PM
Hi Pete, just realy interested in how your machinery is running on your ethenol based bio Diesel. I've been doing a heap of reasearch on both wvo and bio Diesel over the last 4-6 months to see which is the best way to go. The more info i get the more difficult it seems to make a descision. I've taken a interest in your system because it seems to be a cross between the two main alternative fuel systems, it's almost like running wvo and adding ethenol based alcohol to help it burn and flow better without the chemical seperation process that makes bio Diesel, also i'd be genuinly interested in in how that test injector is perfoming.
thanks, MIC.

Frontier1
28th July 2008, 03:06 PM
Hi Mic,

All the machinery is still going fine, no problems with the colder weather so that's a good thing. I was supposed to have had the test injector up and running by now but haven't. Having said that, if you think about it the various injectors in the current list of machinery is pretty diverse so it's a test of injectors anyway.

Regarding the waste oil that you source, my on-going results are better/cleaner if you filter the waste oil first using a 10 micron filter, then "dry" the oil either by fast heating it to 140 celcius to get rid of any water quickly as steam, or to heat to 85 celcius over several hours and then let it cool. With the 85 method, you'll find that the water will "pool" on the bottom of your heated oil once room temp and you can decant your oil off the water that way.

Then process the oil with the standard 4g of KOH, 250ml 99.7% pure ethanol (Diggers or Durobond Methylated Spirits) to 1 ltr waste oil at 55 celcius. Don't forget to keep mixing the "mix" (I do 10 minutes per ltr) to get a good blend.

Once this is complete, you can filter this through a 1 micron sock filter into your storage tank. This filtering will remove particles down to below the injector specs which are 5 micron.

I've also yet to get the girl dyno'd on the eth-bd so I can post the comparisons on the petro-diesel dyno' results and the new ones. Will be doing it soon though as I've been asked by others to see the results.

Hope some of this helps.:)

Cheers, Pete'

ramblingboy42
31st July 2008, 07:03 PM
where does one purchase KOH? in what qty is it available? at what approx cost? does it require any special storage? is it known by another name or generic term?
can anyone tell me which oils produce the nicest tasting exhaust pipe?

Frontier1
1st August 2008, 06:45 AM
Hi,

KOH or Potassium Hydroxide aka Caustic Potash, is used in cleaning products so a good bet is one of your local cleaning companies (big or small), that make their own soaps, cleaning products, etc.

It tends to be in 25kg bags and you'll pay anywhere from between $50 - $125 for it.

I would suggest a plastic drum for storage but still keep it in it's bag as well so that as little air moisture gets to it.

Regarding waste oil, I get really good results from Soybean oil (ETA brand I think), but the formula should work with most waste oils.

Cheers, Pete'

SteelNerve
13th August 2008, 03:15 PM
This is all very interesting about using ethanol instead of methenol.
2 Questions I have,
Why do the main biodiesel manufactures go to all the effort to get ride of the glycerine? I have heard that glycerine burns at a very high temperature and doesn't get completely burnt in the cylinder of an engine and eventually coats the pistons, rings, valves etc for a messy ending to the engine down the track.

The 2nd question is if you are using 250mls / litre of Veg oil how do you make it in such big quantities. I make it in small quantities for drinking but would not be able to keep up in such a large quantity for running the car on. What do you make the ethanol from?

At the end of the day, it's always good to be independent from the dominating oil companies.

Frontier1
13th August 2008, 05:48 PM
Hi SteelNerve,

Welcome to the forum!

Your first question refers to 'pyrolised' fuel and is really talking about SVO systems. Take a look at this thread for further info'. vegetableoildiesel.co.uk - Direct Injection and Post 1999 Vehicles.... - Powered by XMB (http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=2821)

Your 2nd question is answered by the fact that I simply buy my ethanol in 200-400 liter quantities from industrial warehouses rather than make it. I did toy with building a reflux still but I drink enough as it is mate!:D

Cheers, Pete'

SteelNerve
14th August 2008, 12:38 AM
That's an interesting article Thanks Frontier.
So what he is saying is that the new motors through simple chamber design but complex injection won't burn WVO completely but the old engines will because of better chamber mixing and simple injection.

I have been mixing up to 60/40 Bio with Petroleum Diesel in my 300tdi to ensure a good thorough burn and to keep the pump clean and lubricated.
One more interesting thing to through in the pot is a LPG conversion. I understand the adding of LPG to the chamber helps burn the diesel from about a 89% to a 95-98%. This would certainly help ensure all of the WVO is burnt and not left behind to coat the piston rings.
More food for thought.
Cheers

Frontier1
14th August 2008, 07:12 AM
While I don't know much about the LPG mix, I do know that by putting in ethanol (a better burn catalyst), you further minimise the chance of leftover oil to gum up things.

Add to that more filter changes, keeping an eye on your engine oil level, etc. keeps you on top of things.

Pete'

Olive Drab
18th August 2008, 10:55 AM
Am in the process of getting the materials together to build my own home bio-fuel plant.
Will be interested in any and all info posted here.
A friend who skippers a luxury yacht has been researching bio-fuel to run the yacht, coconut oil apparently requires nil refinement, straight into the tank and go. Still waiting to hear how this works out for him will post when I hear.
Apparently us home bio-fuel manufacturers are supposed to pay the GOVT. 38 cents/l fuel tax. I'll put my 38 cents/l in a tin up the shed should they ever decide to come collect it.

Frontier1
18th August 2008, 03:57 PM
Hi "OD",

I'm intending to post up some pics of my reactor soon as I have upgraded my 200ltr to a 315ltr version with some further refinements, hope they can be of some use to you when I do.

I'll be interested to hear how your mate with the yacht goes, I would be surprised if some form of processing wasn't involved, at least filtering if his coconut oil is used. I also assume then that he is setting up a SVO system with some form of heating prior to feeding it directly into the engine?

Regarding all that govt bulls**t.

Under NAT 15418-08.2006 you have to pay the excise even if you are just storing it! as follows..."if your activity involves only the storage of biodiesel or biodiesel/diesel blends then you must hold a storage licence. As a storage licence holder you must report and pay
$0.38143 per litre on the quantity of biodiesel to the tax Office".

Yeah, good luck with that Rudd!:D

Pete'