Rudds apology

[RonMcGr]

Well, it happened and it was very controversial and the Aboriginal appointed Lawyers are now looking at compensation.

Mr Rudd is far better than Hawke for the "Performance factor".

Tax payers may now foot the bill for the theatrics..

[harro]

I feel privileged to have been around to see it.
History being made!
Quite indifferent to the meaning but it made a lot of people happy:).

[cucinadio]

:o now, that wasn't so bad was it ? ;) :confused:

cheers

[Fusion]

All i'm going to say is . A lot of people are going to get rich and the tax payer is going to have to foot the bill ....... great work kevin rudd ya pair of clown shoes :mad:

[dobbo]

I just fear the silly compensation claims as a result of the Apology. Can we expect taxation rises to cover them? I am not saying an apology was not needed, I just hope the government realise all of the ramifications of how the apology was worded. What are the costs involved to all communities within Australia, aboriginal or not. (not just monitary)

[harro]

I just fear the silly compensation claims as a result of the Apology. Can we expect taxation rises to cover them?

It seems the majority didn't think much of the Iraq war.
I hope our taxes haven't risen to cover that:eek:.

Sorry:D ,this is not a hijack.

[duncanw]

this is what the apology should have been

AUSTRALIAN APOLOGY TO THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION

We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care, which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.

We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation, thought and enterprise.

We feel that we must apologise for building hundreds of homes for you, which you have vandalised and destroyed.

We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.

We apologise for developing large farms and properties, which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and starving during droughts.

We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric to replace that animal skins you used before.

We apologise for building roads and railway tracks between cities and building cars so that you no longer have to walk over harsh terrain.

We apologise for paying off your vehicle when you fail to pay the instalments

We apologise for giving you free travel anywhere, whenever.

We apologise for giving each and every member of your family $100.00 and free travel to attend an aboriginal funeral.

We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have to pay.

We apologise for giving you interest free loans.

We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value.

We apologise for developing Ayers rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to you so that you get all the money.

We apologise for allowing taxpayers money paid towards daughters' wedding ($8,000.00 each daughter)

We apologise for giving you $1.7 billion per year for your 250,000 people, which is $48,000.00 per aboriginal man, woman and child.

We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare, medical care, education, etc to the tune of $1.2 billion each year.

We apologise for you having to approach the aboriginal affairs department to verify the above figures. For the trouble you will have identifying the "uncle toms" in your own community who are getting richer and leaving some of you living in squalor and poverty.

We do apologise. We really do.

We humbly beg your forgiveness for all the above sins.

We are only too happy to take back all the above and return you to the paradise of the "outback", whenever you are ready.

[harro]

We do apologise. We really do.

We humbly beg your forgiveness for all the above sins.

We are only too happy to take back all the above and return you to the paradise of the "outback", whenever you are ready.


As long as we leave?:eek:

[d3funct]

I voted for John Howard, since I've been old enough, my family since 1996.

I could not be prouder of him today, for sticking to his guns and not being a part of todays "theatrics".

This is what made him a great leader of our nation, he gave the finger to political correctness and did what he believed to be right for Australia.

KRudd, the elected "leader" of today, gives the finger to our nations needs, and follows the cheap votes.

Well done voters, well done.

[CraigE]

Well, its done now so I hope we can move on.
There will undoubtedly be the compensation claims as already has been indicated. I would just like to see all the do gooders stand up and be prepared to pay the compensation out of their own pockets.
I do sympathise and empathise with what some of these people went through and many more in similar and quite different circumstances and hope it does give them some peace.
The governments at the time believed that they were doing the right thing, no matter how misguided. Unfortuanately not much will change until these people and many others want too. Self respect is the key.
And to put the record straight my great Aunty (by marriage) was one of these so called stolen generation and did not let it effect her, to the contrary used the education to become very successful in a public role, and fought for a long time to better her traditional peoples.

I will keep it civil in this post.:twisted:

[Redback]

this is what the apology should have been

AUSTRALIAN APOLOGY TO THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION

We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care, which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.

We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation, thought and enterprise.

We feel that we must apologise for building hundreds of homes for you, which you have vandalised and destroyed.

We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.

We apologise for developing large farms and properties, which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and starving during droughts.

We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric to replace that animal skins you used before.

We apologise for building roads and railway tracks between cities and building cars so that you no longer have to walk over harsh terrain.

We apologise for paying off your vehicle when you fail to pay the instalments

We apologise for giving you free travel anywhere, whenever.

We apologise for giving each and every member of your family $100.00 and free travel to attend an aboriginal funeral.

We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have to pay.

We apologise for giving you interest free loans.

We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value.

We apologise for developing Ayers rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to you so that you get all the money.

We apologise for allowing taxpayers money paid towards daughters' wedding ($8,000.00 each daughter)

We apologise for giving you $1.7 billion per year for your 250,000 people, which is $48,000.00 per aboriginal man, woman and child.

We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare, medical care, education, etc to the tune of $1.2 billion each year.

We apologise for you having to approach the aboriginal affairs department to verify the above figures. For the trouble you will have identifying the "uncle toms" in your own community who are getting richer and leaving some of you living in squalor and poverty.

We do apologise. We really do.

We humbly beg your forgiveness for all the above sins.

We are only too happy to take back all the above and return you to the paradise of the "outback", whenever you are ready.


I voted for John Howard, since I've been old enough, my family since 1996.

I could not be prouder of him today, for sticking to his guns and not being a part of todays "theatrics".

This is what made him a great leader of our nation, he gave the finger to political correctness and did what he believed to be right for Australia.

KRudd, the elected "leader" of today, gives the finger to our nations needs, and follows the cheap votes.

Well done voters, well done.

Unbelievable, take a bow the pair of you:no2::spudnikwhat:

[87County]

try this article and ....

Kevin Rudd says sorry - National - smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/the-time-has-come--for-all-australians-to-together-build-a-truly-great-nation/2008/02/13/1202760342960.html)

chance for a new page in our history as they say, people

I'm sure that compensation (if any) is quite affordable

[Sprint]

1: why should they get compensation? they want equality, if they want money, they can work like the rest of us

2: anyone else wonder what wouldve happened if say, one of our asian neighbors had colonised australia instead of the brits? there wouldnt be any sorry days, no apologies, no compensation, no "stolen" generation, nothing like that...... why? theres a VERY good chance there wouldnt be any aboriginals to say sorry to

am i sorry? what for?

[tombraider]

Who's going to say sorry to all the Liverpool? children who were taken to Australia around the same time?

No-one...

This was a total waste of time and taxpayers ....

kRudd does not represent me in this nation...


Now he's recognised that the "land belongs to the indigenous" who's going to be happy when they come and claim back their land that your house is on?


Its very simple people... The older residents of this place are part of a conquered race....

Like what has happened in many other places throughout the world...

Deal with it people....

And how far advanced would these people be if explorers hadnt come here? They seem to sure enjoy the benefits of modern society...

[barney]

Krudd's so called "motion" that was actually a speech, i thought was formulated to make the evil white man feel good about himself again.
i reckon although a lot of people shunned brendan nelson's speech, his was the closest to the truth.i didn't vote for Krudd and i am glad to see that my judgement was right. with this and Kyoto, he will send this country broke!
back in the day, there would have been an element of racism involved. as nelson said, they probably were under the misguided impression they were doing what was best for these children.
hindsight shows us what a ridiculous policy it was to take half-caste children away from their parents. white Australia were told they weren't accepted by their extended families.
this was also the era when we were heavily under british direction and influenced by their policies. testing nuclear bombs in our back yard for instance.
i cannot be held responsible for the actions of my forefathers, and i have nothing to be $orry about.
i do see that what happened to these poor little kids was wrong and whatever it takes, steps should be made to make restitution.
compensation has lost it's meaning in this day and age, these days it seems it's meaning is closer to "shut up" money.
how can you compensate someone for this sort of regime? i suppose everyone has their price!
i don't know how the majority of aboriginal people feel about this, the rent-a-crown we saw on the news may not be indicative of the wider aboriginal community. i hope i'm wrong and it magically fixes everything.
there are members of this forum and the LROC that will be directly affected by this, some of them i know and would call friends, and i hope for their sake, this day makes a difference to them.
it's people like Mick Dodson that will ruin it for everyone and spoil any hope of reconcilliation that may have been in the sights today.

[roverrescue]

Surely if one makes the argument that by saying sorry, compensation will be forthcoming. Then the theoretical possibility of a court of law granting compensation in a specific case would denote that a wrong had been done. If a wrong had been done, worthy of said compensation, then surely an apology for such action is a fundamental human decency.

If I was a low life oxygen thief who stole your pride and joy D3 from your drive, then crashed it, you sure as hell would want me to be sorry... wouldnt you??? (this is not directed at an individual, merely an illustration)

When human beings are wronged, there is an inbuilt desire and need for justice. An apology is a part of that.

By the above argument, if no compensation is granted, that will indicate either that no wrong was ever done or that the "victim" has accepted said apology, forgiven and moved on. Only time will tell which will occur in this case.

I hope that today is a part of all australians taking part in:

"Deal with it people...."

regards
Steve


btw, i have just finished listening to the 55min video link on the abc.net.com.au, was worth listening too irrespective of your take on this issue.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Will the relatives of "The Man" apologise to me for the stolen camera and other items from my car.

I got the camera back when I "made a citizens arrest" of one of the perpetrators but not anything else or the damage to the locks on my Rangie. Although the one who was arrested wanted an apology from me, actually she wanted me arrested for restraining her. Yes she was a first cousin of "The Man".

Will they also apologise to me for the several episodes of fare evasion when I was driving a taxi?

Diana

[Slunnie]

Surely if one makes the argument that by saying sorry, compensation will be forthcoming. Then the theoretical possibility of a court of law granting compensation in a specific case would denote that a wrong had been done. If a wrong had been done, worthy of said compensation, then surely an apology for such action is a fundamental human decency.

If I was a low life oxygen thief who stole your pride and joy D3 from your drive, then crashed it, you sure as hell would want me to be sorry... wouldnt you??? (this is not directed at an individual, merely an illustration)

When human beings are wronged, there is an inbuilt desire and need for justice. An apology is a part of that.

By the above argument, if no compensation is granted, that will indicate either that no wrong was ever done or that the "victim" has accepted said apology, forgiven and moved on. Only time will tell which will occur in this case.

I hope that today is a part of all australians taking part in:

"Deal with it people...."

regards
Steve


btw, i have just finished listening to the 55min video link on the abc.net.com.au, was worth listening too irrespective of your take on this issue.
I fully agree Steve. It would be a shame if we had some dues to us, such as compensation, but this was denyed because somebody just didn't want to bear the financial burden. Likewise, as Australians didn't want live under Japanese rule, just perhaps the Aboriginal people were happy living a traditional life and the whole problem has come about because 1 persons values and ideal were forced upon anothers, and it obviously continues.

[waynep]

I watched the speech today.
I'm disappointed, but not in the speech.
I'm disappointed in some of the attitudes displayed in the previous posts.
I thought the country had grown up a bit today but there's clearly work to do yet.

[wardy1]

Well... here's my 2 bob's worth
I'm fRom England originally.... now we were invaded by just about everybody! The Vikings, The Moors, The Romans and so it goes. I'm pretty sure thAt my people were at some stages enslaved, slaughtered, raped and our lands were most certainly seized...... Do I get an apology?......no. Do I get compensation?

I'm sure there are Frenchmen, Poles, Hungarians, Slovaks, Indians, Pakistanis and yep, even the ViEtnamese may have a bit to say but the French occupation and well.... the North Africans (Guyana, Kenya, Nigeria Sudan etc etc etc) may have something to say about the French, British and the Portugese!!!!

Where does all this end?

It all happened a long time go and lets face it, it will all probably repeat itself because that's the way we humans are. If we all feel good today because 1 politician said sorry, terrific.

I for one think we should all get on with the future and use the past as what it really is...... HISTORY. We can't change it, no matter that it was right or wrong.

And are we allowed to ask the really politically incorrect question here?

Were at least some of the "Stolen Generation" not taken from appalling family conditions where sexual and physical abuse were very real concerns?

Do we not remove WHITE children from similar situations even now?

Oh SORRY.

[graceysdad]

As long as we leave?:eek:

We could all go to New Zealand perhaps or perhaps organise leaky boats to take us back to merry old England:wasntme:

[roverrescue]

"It all happened a long time go " I wouldnt say that 1970 was a long time ago. I would think that in a court of law compensation will only apply to those who were directly wronged... not their relatives, and in this case if at all.

Secondly, even if some of theose removed were "removed from appalling family conditions where sexual and physical abuse were very real concerns?" then what of those who were removed due to government laws of forced assimilation. Surely being removed because you were of dark skin and a child and no other reason would be deserving an apology?

regards
Steve

[Blknight.aus]

all the soft skins are going to hate me...

all the rednecks will love it...

yall forgot my favorite ones....

we're sorry that as englishmen we conquested your country, it would have been so much better to allow the dutch to do it, just like tasmania.

We're sorry we didnt follow the dutch's example in tasmania.



Did you know that as of 1997 there were still 3 valid aboriginal hunting liscences issued in tasmania that were valid?

[Slunnie]

There are still Aboriginal hunting grounds on the mainland too.

[MickS]

Do we not remove WHITE children from similar situations even now?




In many cases sadly - no - DOCS leave them there and allow the abuse to continue, sometimes leading to death/murder...

[dobbo]

I am not a racist.

I understand why the apology was important to the stolen generation, I don't understand why compensation is today.


Everyday when I get off the train to go to work I get the standardized 3 questions from different people all of indigenous descent, all of them in an agressive tone.

Hey bloke you got a dollar?
Het bloke you got a smoke?
Hey man you wanna score?

If these folk get compensated where will the money go? I can guarantee not to the community.

The big question

Has the Aboriginal race benifitted in any way from "white mans" colonisation of Australia? Have they ever said Thankyou?

[CraigE]

Krudd's so called "motion" that was actually a speech, i thought was formulated to make the evil white man feel good about himself again.
i reckon although a lot of people shunned brendan nelson's speech, his was the closest to the truth.i didn't vote for Krudd and i am glad to see that my judgement was right. with this and Kyoto, he will send this country broke!
back in the day, there would have been an element of racism involved. as nelson said, they probably were under the misguided impression they were doing what was best for these children.
hindsight shows us what a ridiculous policy it was to take half-caste children away from their parents. white Australia were told they weren't accepted by their extended families.
this was also the era when we were heavily under british direction and influenced by their policies. testing nuclear bombs in our back yard for instance.
i cannot be held responsible for the actions of my forefathers, and i have nothing to be $orry about.
i do see that what happened to these poor little kids was wrong and whatever it takes, steps should be made to make restitution.
compensation has lost it's meaning in this day and age, these days it seems it's meaning is closer to "shut up" money.
how can you compensate someone for this sort of regime? i suppose everyone has their price!
i don't know how the majority of aboriginal people feel about this, the rent-a-crown we saw on the news may not be indicative of the wider aboriginal community. i hope i'm wrong and it magically fixes everything.
there are members of this forum and the LROC that will be directly affected by this, some of them i know and would call friends, and i hope for their sake, this day makes a difference to them.
it's people like Mick Dodson that will ruin it for everyone and spoil any hope of reconcilliation that may have been in the sights today.

Barney,
I agree Brendon Nelsons speech made more sense and contained more moderation. It is sad that an apology can not be made without money coming into the equation. And you are right, talk to some of the wider community. It seems our country is run by minoritys not the majority like it is supposed to be under the Westminster system.

[CraigE]

There are still Aboriginal hunting grounds on the mainland too.
I do not quite think that is what he meant by aboriginal hunting ground(licence to hunt aboriginals):o
Should never have occured and while we can make jokes was a tragedy.

[Turtle61]

I watched the speech today.
I'm disappointed, but not in the speech.
I'm disappointed in some of the attitudes displayed in the previous posts.
I thought the country had grown up a bit today but there's clearly work to do yet.

I am with waynep. Disappointed at some of the attitudes displayed on this forum. :( :no2:


Moving on...

As to the comment(s) regarding WWII victims: Germany is still paying compensation (60 years on) to people who were on forced labour during WWII in Germany. It is far better to have a compensation scheme than to have each effected individual going through the courts and the only people benefiting from all that would be the lawyers.

[Tango51]

I thought that on an occasion where the intent was to offer sincere expressions of sorrow for the wrongful fracturing of lives and to create goodwill and a chance for harmony, Brendan Nelson's inappropriate references to sexual violence etcetera was tantamount to doing fart jokes at a funeral.

I wonder at the numbers of posters caught up in miser vision over compensation issues, despite the obvious pain and suffering expressed by those injured.

The Westminster system never ever allowed majority rule.
It allowed conference, but always the Sovereign could overrule.
In fact, we are not using the Westminster system strictly but a combination sharing the USA's federal system, and we are ruled by seven parliamentary monarchies with the States, Commonwealth, State Governors AND the Governor General ALL representing the Sovereign!
And it isn't English, it was introduced by the Saxons and evolved.

We don't have a direct democracy, and we elect those who then make these types of decisions on our behalf.
We then get to second guess and whinge.
Sometimes we get to applaud. Today was one of those days, for mine.

[CraigE]

We do run a westminster legal system, with a modified version that has been updated to include our rights under a democracy, also as per the constitution. It still has links back to a monarchy. Overall majority rule is supposed to prevail. The problem is that when a government wins office they believe that they then have the mandate to do whatever they want. This is not the case and was not a major election promise. It should have gone to a referendum when the election was taking place. A democracy by nature can not get a majority populus vote on every item on the agenda, hence why we vote in representatives, but something this important should.
Some are happy with todays result, some are not for a multitude of reasons. If it brings peace to some , great, but I doubt it. Lets move forward and address the real problems now, not the feel good apology that in fact will do nothing. All the hype and funding that was directed into this arena would have been better placed assisting people in real need here and now, not something that happened 30-200 years ago. At the end of the day I am not going to lose any sleep over it, but can see the repercussions.
Live in the present not the past.
Germany still paying compensation? To who? Several of my Uncles were POWs and treated appalingly, yet they did not, nor will get, nor asked for compensation. Yet they put their lives on the line to protect everyone in our great country. Where do we draw the line on who gets apologised to and who does not?? Everyone would be apologising for history for some time to come.
Why is it when anyone speaks out against a minority, Hitler is refered to?? There is no comparrison at all, just an agenda to silence opponents of certain actions by making them appear to be racist. 6 million plus murdered and we are comparing! please!

[CraigE]

I am with waynep. Disappointed at some of the attitudes displayed on this forum. :( :no2:


Moving on...

As to the comment(s) regarding WWII victims: Germany is still paying compensation (60 years on) to people who were on forced labour during WWII in Germany. It is far better to have a compensation scheme than to have each effected individual going through the courts and the only people benefiting from all that would be the lawyers.

I have to ask why Turtle? Just because our view points are not similar? That is a fact of life and will always occur. I think it is way too simplistic to think an apology will solve everything. There are many people that have faced far worse attrocities than being removed from their families.
If the apology helps these people move on then fantastic, but most of us can see it for what it is and an opportunity to get compensation.
We have been hearing all this for years, but the situation remains the same has it has for many years in a lot of communities, remote, urban and suburban with abuse, drug and alcohol dependency, violence etc. Unfortuanately this is not uniique to any one race or culture.This is what we really need to address and give the kids a chance to make their own way, not stuck in a revolving door.
I think this may have caused more division than unity, which is not the way forward.
I think I probablly should shut up now as this is a highly emotional subject.

[Redback]

Who's going to say sorry to all the Liverpool? children who were taken to Australia around the same time?

No-one...

This was a total waste of time and taxpayers ....

kRudd does not represent me in this nation...


Now he's recognised that the "land belongs to the indigenous" who's going to be happy when they come and claim back their land that your house is on?


Its very simple people... The older residents of this place are part of a conquered race....

Like what has happened in many other places throughout the world...

Deal with it people....

And how far advanced would these people be if explorers hadnt come here? They seem to sure enjoy the benefits of modern society...

They can't they can only claim public (ie) crown land under the native title act.

What your saying is scare mongering.

It's clear from some of the comments that most have no idea what has happened to these people over the last 200yrs, i think maybe we should have a little google too maybe enlighten your minds.

Then move on and maybe try to show some sort of compassion for your fellow man.

Baz.

[Turtle61]

I have to ask why Turtle? Just because our view points are not similar? That is a fact of life and will always occur. I think it is way too simplistic to think an apology will solve everything.


I am not disappointed or indeed surprised at the fact that we do not share the same point of view. It would be simplistic and narrow-mined to expect that, but ATTITUDE is not the same as a VIEWPOINT. What I am mostly disappointed with is the way these different viewpoints are expressed and unfortunately they APPEAR to be expressed with a supremacist, colonial, dismissive and bordering (in some cases) on racist attitudes. Quite a difference there. One can express one's viewpoint critically without prejudice or judgement or stand on a soapbox and shout. The sad thing is that most people tend to listen to the shouting...

No, apology will not solve everything nor it's meant to, but it's a bloody good start to right the wrongs.



I think I probablly should shut up now as this is a highly emotional subject.

We could get into endless arguments on invasions, bringing 'civilisation' to other people and so on and so on.

But you're right. Too emotional. It's done. Our democratically elected representative has apologised. Let's move on. That's it from me.

[JohnE]

As a topic this has the ability to become highly emotive and lead to to and fro slanging matches. I do not intend to offend anyone, i have some good friends that are native australians.
However we are all adults with different views and perspectives.
Without thoroughly researching the main reasons why children were taken from their parents, i beleive it had a lot to do with the church. The churches vehicle was government legislation, taming the natives.

The bit I object to is the riff raff that came out to be interviewed , some claiming to have been 'stolen' thirty years ago. hell I joined the cops not long after that time frame, plus was working in a government organisation. I don;t recall any children stolen, i do however recall children being placed in care by the forerunners of DOCS, for being neglected illtreated and generally not looked after. I recall being bottled one night by a group of 12 year olds at the 'block' after midnight and they were all drunk, is this the group i should feel sorry for or say sorry to!!! Or the local land councils that were given millions and millions of dollars and have nothing to show for it, where are the houses? oh thats right cold night needed wood.
Unfortunately the academics do not get down to the ground level to see how things really are. It is the footsoldiers of the legislation who see it as it really is.
letter to the local member is in order.

thats my ramble , thank you.


john

[Frenchie]

What is really important is where we go from here.

What I hope will happen is that the Aboriginal population will feel that perhaps the government and the rest of Australia do actually care about what happens to them and this will lead to a more positive attitude within themselves about their future. The government also need to push ahead with trying to find ways of solving the current problems that exist and the only way to do this is to work with the Aboriginal population which probably wouldn't have worked without this apology.

Let's look on the bright side. :cool:

[Quarks]

:):o:eek::(:mellow:

Ok.

I watched all 30mins of Rudd's speech, then the 20mins of Nelson's speech, followed by the actions after.
Having heard a bit said about it makes me wonder if some people actually are aware of what was said. Rudd's speech was very diplomatic.

On compensation, I heard both leaders say no to it. Didn't you?
I feel that addressing the issues is a better way of compensation, apart from reducing future liabilities.

Alright, the paragraph that otherwise goes here has been made redundant by Frenchie. (thank you)
:):)

[waynep]

I think this may have caused more division than unity, which is not the way forward.


I think you're quite wrong there. I think this will create more unity than the naysayers will be prepared to see.

It takes a brave man to freely express his views, but an even braver one to look inside himself and expunge all those irrational fears and dark long held prejudices.

[Rayngie]

I am not disappointed or indeed surprised at the fact that we do not share the same point of view. It would be simplistic and narrow-mined to expect that, but ATTITUDE is not the same as a VIEWPOINT. What I am mostly disappointed with is the way these different viewpoints are expressed and unfortunately they APPEAR to be expressed with a supremacist, colonial, dismissive and bordering (in some cases) on racist attitudes. Quite a difference there. One can express one's viewpoint critically without prejudice or judgement or stand on a soapbox and shout. The sad thing is that most people tend to listen to the shouting...

No, apology will not solve everything nor it's meant to, but it's a bloody good start to right the wrongs.



We could get into endless arguments on invasions, bringing 'civilisation' to other people and so on and so on.

But you're right. Too emotional. It's done. Our democratically elected representative has apologised. Let's move on. That's it from me.



I'm with you Turtle......

Ray

[Reads90]

2: anyone else wonder what wouldve happened if say, one of our asian neighbors had colonised australia instead of the brits? there wouldnt be any sorry days, no apologies, no compensation, no "stolen" generation, nothing like that...... why? theres a VERY good chance there wouldnt be any aboriginals to say sorry to

am i sorry? what for?

mmmm the French, Dutch , Portugal and Spainish were all very close.
If any of them had claimed Australia then there would be no problems . After all the South Americans don't have problems with the Inca's do they ;)

[Rangier Rover]

I am not a racist.

I understand why the apology was important to the stolen generation, I don't understand why compensation is today.


Everyday when I get off the train to go to work I get the standardized 3 questions from different people all of indigenous descent, all of them in an agressive tone.

Hey bloke you got a dollar?
Het bloke you got a smoke?
Hey man you wanna score?

If these folk get compensated where will the money go? I can guarantee not to the community.

The big question

Has the Aboriginal race benifitted in any way from "white mans" colonisation of Australia? Have they ever said Thankyou?

Unfurtunately this is the case with a percentage of any race. If this type compensated would be :eek::eek:. I have a brother in law who's mother was a victom of this Stolen Generation. Fortunately she ended up with a good family who put her through uni and had a career for life and anded up with a nice family and a good home. Here early memories were sadn'd but turned out for the better.
A lot of them were not this lucky. You all know there is good and bad in these people. I don't comend the bad type by any means. People only see the bad.Thats the inpression that sticks. There is good in them to. I dont beleive the past can be fixed as to many variables stand in the way.
May be good to the left... Bad to the right...:angel:
In conclusion, we can not judge on one side of story. As for all of us. Being cruel is only going to make things worse.
If the media find this thread it may not look good. Please be thoughtfull.
Cheers RR.:)

[Reads90]

when i drove around Australia it opened my eyes alot to the state of the aboriginals.
we first came across aboriginals in S/A and that was the drunk one in the middle of the high street and asking you for money , fags and other stuff.
Then we were told by serveral travels (Nomads , and truck drivers) not to stop for Aboriginals and to hit them if they step in front of your car. This was a great shock to me , and thought a bit much and the beer talking or taking the **** out of the pom.
It was not untill i came to Leonora police station (where i went to pick up my Aboriginal permit to drive the track) I was asked what car i had and if i had a bull bar . I was then told (By a what look like mixed Aboriginal race Copper) that if any aboriginal jump out in front of me or stood in the road then hit them with the bull bar. The lastest trick was to have woman with a baby stand in the road for you to stop. They said if this happens then hit them too. If you hit someone then report it at the police station at Ayres rock. This shocked the hell out of me . They told me that 3 weeks earlyer a road train had stopped for a woman with a bady and 6 aboriginals came from a bush and beat the driver and then left him 500 k's from anywhere and took his truck .
As you drive down the track to Ayres rock there is loads and loads of burn't out cars on the side of the road. We stopped counting at 250 , in 150k. Then you know when you are getting to an Aboriginal township as the crap on the side of the road starts to build up and up , and i am talking about used nappies, Beer cans and anything else. It is disgusting.

Then in Alice springs there are Aboriginals drunk all over town and in the river bed, plus the march of the Aboriginals up to the bottle shop at 2pm..Also you come upon them in the supermarket and the smell of bozze and everyhting else is beyond belief. And that is not just one but alot of them .

You also see a newish land cruser 100 seris full of about 13 aboriginals. The police told me they can't arrest them for over loading a car. These cars are wrecked, the insides are just covered in crap (fesses) Saw loads and loads of these cars

driving to W/A you see some little townships where there are really nice house, ones i would be proud to own. You see new ones to show you what they were like and then most of them are burn't , smashed and in a state of diss repair.

Up on the way to the cape , we came across a Nissan about 6 months old that two Aboriginals drove into 2 m of ater with no snorkle. Whne the truck stopped they swam out and left it. And walked off. It was still there a month after. After all i was told this is because they don't have to pay for it

And i have not mentioned the restriction on petrol and achol all around Australia.

This is not me being rasict, but what i saw as a pom who came to Australia and traveled around. I have heard alot more stories but these are the things i saw with my own eyes. I have seen alot more but what i have put on here is enough
My Sister in law works for the goverment in Sydney and is always going on about how hard the aboriginals are trreated by the Australian goverment . After one time i nearly bought her a ticket to Alice springs, as she has never been to the outback and the only Aboriginal she has seen have been in the towns. And to show her how much the goverment spend on helping them
I argee with people who say how far do you go. After all does the UK goverment say sorry to all the convicts that were sent over here. Separteted for their wifes and familes for just nicking a loaf of bread.

Just my thoughts
Ali

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...
May be good to the left... Bad to the right...:angel: ...

Which way is right and which is left, depends on your perspective I guess.

Diana

[Rangier Rover]

Which way is right and which is left, depends on your perspective I guess.

Diana
It's all to hard. The bad streak in some are there own enemies sadly.

[BigJon]

Then in Alice springs there are Aboriginals drunk all over town and in the river bed,


Not nearly as often now that we are a "dry" town. No one camping in the river anymore. Still dop get them wandering the streets drunk, but it is noticeably better now than it was prior to the dry town legislation. Mind you, from what I hear Coober Pedy and Mt Isa have had a population explosion - no dry town there yet. Katherine has recently become dry, that would contribute as well.

Having said that, I walk my dog most mornings and it isn't uncommon to see empty beer cans / bottles strewn over footpaths and the oval I go to. I think the problem is one of enforcement - not enough coppers to go around.

[waynep]

when i drove around Australia it opened my eyes alot to the state of the aboriginals.
we first came across aboriginals in S/A and that was the drunk one in the middle of the high street and asking you for money , fags and other stuff.
Then we were told by serveral travels (Nomads , and truck drivers) not to stop for Aboriginals and to hit them if they step in front of your car. This was a great shock to me , and thought a bit much and the beer talking or taking the **** out of the pom.
It was not untill i came to Leonora police station (where i went to pick up my Aboriginal permit to drive the track) I was asked what car i had and if i had a bull bar . I was then told (By a what look like mixed Aboriginal race Copper) that if any aboriginal jump out in front of me or stood in the road then hit them with the bull bar. The lastest trick was to have woman with a baby stand in the road for you to stop. They said if this happens then hit them too. If you hit someone then report it at the police station at Ayres rock. This shocked the hell out of me . They told me that 3 weeks earlyer a road train had stopped for a woman with a bady and 6 aboriginals came from a bush and beat the driver and then left him 500 k's from anywhere and took his truck .
As you drive down the track to Ayres rock there is loads and loads of burn't out cars on the side of the road. We stopped counting at 250 , in 150k. Then you know when you are getting to an Aboriginal township as the crap on the side of the road starts to build up and up , and i am talking about used nappies, Beer cans and anything else. It is disgusting.

Then in Alice springs there are Aboriginals drunk all over town and in the river bed, plus the march of the Aboriginals up to the bottle shop at 2pm..Also you come upon them in the supermarket and the smell of bozze and everyhting else is beyond belief. And that is not just one but alot of them .

You also see a newish land cruser 100 seris full of about 13 aboriginals. The police told me they can't arrest them for over loading a car. These cars are wrecked, the insides are just covered in crap (fesses) Saw loads and loads of these cars

driving to W/A you see some little townships where there are really nice house, ones i would be proud to own. You see new ones to show you what they were like and then most of them are burn't , smashed and in a state of diss repair.

Up on the way to the cape , we came across a Nissan about 6 months old that two Aboriginals drove into 2 m of ater with no snorkle. Whne the truck stopped they swam out and left it. And walked off. It was still there a month after. After all i was told this is because they don't have to pay for it

And i have not mentioned the restriction on petrol and achol all around Australia.

This is not me being rasict, but what i saw as a pom who came to Australia and traveled around. I have heard alot more stories but these are the things i saw with my own eyes. I have seen alot more but what i have put on here is enough
My Sister in law works for the goverment in Sydney and is always going on about how hard the aboriginals are trreated by the Australian goverment . After one time i nearly bought her a ticket to Alice springs, as she has never been to the outback and the only Aboriginal she has seen have been in the towns. And to show her how much the goverment spend on helping them
I argee with people who say how far do you go. After all does the UK goverment say sorry to all the convicts that were sent over here. Separteted for their wifes and familes for just nicking a loaf of bread.

Just my thoughts
Ali

Anyone who has travelled in Outback Australia would have seen and heard similar. It's sad and very concerning, but I don't see what it's got to do with offering an apology for the wrongs of the past. In fact those wrongs may just be part of the reason for the problems we see today.
If youl isten to the speeches from yesterday, you'll see that no compensation was offered or implied. Instead the money will go towards improving the situation you decribe above. Hopefully better managed than in past times where it seems the money was just thrown out without proper control or accountability.
You describe the problem well, but what is the solution ? Some boost in self respect is probably a good way to start, and from the lift in spirts I saw yesterday, the apology was probably a good way to start.

[gghaggis]

Whether we agree or not on the value of an apology to the stolen generation, it's done. Move on.

I've heard many an aboriginal leader say that this is the first step (to what goal, I'm not entirely sure). But I would suggest, that as a response to the government's motion, the next step should be for the Stolen Generation representatives to wholeheartedly, and without reservation, accept the apology.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Treads]

Germany is still paying compensation (60 years on) to people who were on forced labour during WWII in Germany.


I think you may have missed something here: Last time I looked, Germany lost that war..... :angel: Other way round here isn't it?

[Rangier Rover]

when i drove around Australia it opened my eyes alot to the state of the aboriginals.
we first came across aboriginals in S/A and that was the drunk one in the middle of the high street and asking you for money , fags and other stuff.
Then we were told by serveral travels (Nomads , and truck drivers) not to stop for Aboriginals and to hit them if they step in front of your car. This was a great shock to me , and thought a bit much and the beer talking or taking the **** out of the pom.
It was not untill i came to Leonora police station (where i went to pick up my Aboriginal permit to drive the track) I was asked what car i had and if i had a bull bar . I was then told (By a what look like mixed Aboriginal race Copper) that if any aboriginal jump out in front of me or stood in the road then hit them with the bull bar. The lastest trick was to have woman with a baby stand in the road for you to stop. They said if this happens then hit them too. If you hit someone then report it at the police station at Ayres rock. This shocked the hell out of me . They told me that 3 weeks earlyer a road train had stopped for a woman with a bady and 6 aboriginals came from a bush and beat the driver and then left him 500 k's from anywhere and took his truck .
As you drive down the track to Ayres rock there is loads and loads of burn't out cars on the side of the road. We stopped counting at 250 , in 150k. Then you know when you are getting to an Aboriginal township as the crap on the side of the road starts to build up and up , and i am talking about used nappies, Beer cans and anything else. It is disgusting.

Then in Alice springs there are Aboriginals drunk all over town and in the river bed, plus the march of the Aboriginals up to the bottle shop at 2pm..Also you come upon them in the supermarket and the smell of bozze and everyhting else is beyond belief. And that is not just one but alot of them .

You also see a newish land cruser 100 seris full of about 13 aboriginals. The police told me they can't arrest them for over loading a car. These cars are wrecked, the insides are just covered in crap (fesses) Saw loads and loads of these cars

driving to W/A you see some little townships where there are really nice house, ones i would be proud to own. You see new ones to show you what they were like and then most of them are burn't , smashed and in a state of diss repair.

Up on the way to the cape , we came across a Nissan about 6 months old that two Aboriginals drove into 2 m of ater with no snorkle. Whne the truck stopped they swam out and left it. And walked off. It was still there a month after. After all i was told this is because they don't have to pay for it

And i have not mentioned the restriction on petrol and achol all around Australia.

This is not me being rasict, but what i saw as a pom who came to Australia and traveled around. I have heard alot more stories but these are the things i saw with my own eyes. I have seen alot more but what i have put on here is enough
My Sister in law works for the goverment in Sydney and is always going on about how hard the aboriginals are trreated by the Australian goverment . After one time i nearly bought her a ticket to Alice springs, as she has never been to the outback and the only Aboriginal she has seen have been in the towns. And to show her how much the goverment spend on helping them
I argee with people who say how far do you go. After all does the UK goverment say sorry to all the convicts that were sent over here. Separteted for their wifes and familes for just nicking a loaf of bread.

Just my thoughts
Ali
What you have seen sure is the bad side. White mans bloody Grog doesn't help this cause. We are having problems similar over this way. Seems to be a nasty streak in some areas.:(

[RonMcGr]

when i drove around Australia it opened my eyes alot to the state of the aboriginals.
<snip>
I argee with people who say how far do you go. After all does the UK goverment say sorry to all the convicts that were sent over here. Separteted for their wifes and familes for just nicking a loaf of bread.

Just my thoughts
Ali

Ali,

Sad, but true.
I have seen it as well.
So far, no one has come up with an answer to that problem.

To make it worse, alcohol is not part of aboriginal culture, and never has been. Therefore it has drastic effects on their liver and kidneys. Most other races have brewed some form of alcohol and adjusted to it over decades.

The drunkenness and thieving, related to the former, is a battle that the elders even have trouble trying to control it.

Education, a sense of responsibility and employment would certainly help, however, you can leed a horse to water....

Cheers,

[RonMcGr]

I think you may have missed something here: Last time I looked, Germany lost that war..... :angel: Other way round here isn't it?

So did Japan, and look at them now :D
Who said the loosers loose. They are doing very well, thank you.

[87County]

6869

[waynep]

Ali,
To make it worse, alcohol is not part of aboriginal culture, and never has been. Therefore it has drastic effects on their liver and kidneys.
Cheers,

That's interesting. Do you know where I could find the formal research on that ?

[rick130]

<snip>but what is the solution ? Some boost in self respect is probably a good way to start, and from the lift in spirts I saw yesterday, the apology was probably a good way to start.

just MO, listening to Noel Pearson and some other leaders like him would be a further step. Unfortunately people like Michael Mansell get general media play as they are controversial, (much like Harold Scruby re 4WD's) and so the public gets a skewed view of (supposed) Aboriginal leaders.

Noel comes across as a very smart man who is able to cut through to the root causes to problems and proffer some solutions.

[RonMcGr]

That's interesting. Do you know where I could find the formal research on that ?

Unfortunately I've lost the original reference to that.
However, if you read the history of who they lived, you'll notice that the Aboriginals were hunters and gatherers.
They did not stay in one place too long, carried very simple tools, did not plant crops, etc.

Aborigines (http://www.apex.net.au/~mhumphry/aborigin.html)

Another interesting read on the Australian Aboriginal diet:

Australian Aborigines--Living Off the Fat of the Land (http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/australian_aborigines.html)

They were once healthy, happy people.

Cheers

[Scallops]

6869

Love it, mate. :D:D:D

PS - Ron McGr - we're having a flat earth society meeting next week - would you be interested?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

This
E LAW | British Child Migration to Australia: History, Senate Inquiry and Responsibilities (http://www.murdoch.edu.au/elaw/issues/v9n4/buti94.html)
as a reference as to "our" thinking during the era--

[feral]

when i drove around Australia it opened my eyes alot to the state of the aboriginals.
we first came across aboriginals in S/A and that was the drunk one in the middle of the high street and asking you for money , fags and other stuff.
Then we were told by serveral travels (Nomads , and truck drivers) not to stop for Aboriginals and to hit them if they step in front of your car. This was a great shock to me , and thought a bit much and the beer talking or taking the **** out of the pom.
It was not untill i came to Leonora police station (where i went to pick up my Aboriginal permit to drive the track) I was asked what car i had and if i had a bull bar . I was then told (By a what look like mixed Aboriginal race Copper) that if any aboriginal jump out in front of me or stood in the road then hit them with the bull bar. The lastest trick was to have woman with a baby stand in the road for you to stop. They said if this happens then hit them too. If you hit someone then report it at the police station at Ayres rock. This shocked the hell out of me . They told me that 3 weeks earlyer a road train had stopped for a woman with a bady and 6 aboriginals came from a bush and beat the driver and then left him 500 k's from anywhere and took his truck .
As you drive down the track to Ayres rock there is loads and loads of burn't out cars on the side of the road. We stopped counting at 250 , in 150k. Then you know when you are getting to an Aboriginal township as the crap on the side of the road starts to build up and up , and i am talking about used nappies, Beer cans and anything else. It is disgusting.

Then in Alice springs there are Aboriginals drunk all over town and in the river bed, plus the march of the Aboriginals up to the bottle shop at 2pm..Also you come upon them in the supermarket and the smell of bozze and everyhting else is beyond belief. And that is not just one but alot of them .

You also see a newish land cruser 100 seris full of about 13 aboriginals. The police told me they can't arrest them for over loading a car. These cars are wrecked, the insides are just covered in crap (fesses) Saw loads and loads of these cars

driving to W/A you see some little townships where there are really nice house, ones i would be proud to own. You see new ones to show you what they were like and then most of them are burn't , smashed and in a state of diss repair.

Up on the way to the cape , we came across a Nissan about 6 months old that two Aboriginals drove into 2 m of ater with no snorkle. Whne the truck stopped they swam out and left it. And walked off. It was still there a month after. After all i was told this is because they don't have to pay for it

And i have not mentioned the restriction on petrol and achol all around Australia.

This is not me being rasict, but what i saw as a pom who came to Australia and traveled around. I have heard alot more stories but these are the things i saw with my own eyes. I have seen alot more but what i have put on here is enough
My Sister in law works for the goverment in Sydney and is always going on about how hard the aboriginals are trreated by the Australian goverment . After one time i nearly bought her a ticket to Alice springs, as she has never been to the outback and the only Aboriginal she has seen have been in the towns. And to show her how much the goverment spend on helping them
I argee with people who say how far do you go. After all does the UK goverment say sorry to all the convicts that were sent over here. Separteted for their wifes and familes for just nicking a loaf of bread.

Just my thoughts
Ali


Anyone who has travelled in Outback Australia would have seen and heard similar. It's sad and very concerning, but I don't see what it's got to do with offering an apology for the wrongs of the past. In fact those wrongs may just be part of the reason for the problems we see today.
If youl isten to the speeches from yesterday, you'll see that no compensation was offered or implied. Instead the money will go towards improving the situation you decribe above. Hopefully better managed than in past times where it seems the money was just thrown out without proper control or accountability.
You describe the problem well, but what is the solution ? Some boost in self respect is probably a good way to start, and from the lift in spirts I saw yesterday, the apology was probably a good way to start.


Its a bit different to what I saw :eek:

I have just done the Central Australia tour in October '06. The places that we stayed at included Port Augusta, Coober Pedy, Uluru, King Canyon, Glen Helen, Alice Springs and we had no problems with anyone. Ok, these may be tourist spots but we also travelled through Maryvale, Wallace Rockhole, Arltunga and many other places where there are aboriginal communities. We actually took a wrong turn at Maryvale and went into the town instead of heading towards Chambers Pillar. The town looked a little rundown but I stopped beside a couple of locals and asked Where to from here? They gave me the right directions with no trouble at all and we were on our way.

The only real problem we had was on the last night at 2am in Alice where one bloke was standing in the middle of the street yelling and screaming whilst another was doing a little circle work to the point of blown tyres in his car. My concern was when was the car going to launch itself through the caravan park and into us!! But this type of behavour happens in my street in Melbourne and you don't have to be at an aboriginal community to see this.

I have no problems going back and mixing with aboriginals or anyone. I watched the AFL Grand Final from the Arltunga pub and had a great time :p

[Davo]

"AUSTRALIAN APOLOGY TO THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION
We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care, which allows you
to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.
*Never mind how you survived so long without us. Of course, the doctors and free medical care are sporadic at best, and usually needed because of the bad housing, diet, dislocation and other results of white culture, but all this is a bit much for simple-minded racist whingers to grasp.

We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language,
thus opening up to you the entire European civilisation, thought and
enterprise.
*Sorry we had to wipe out your culture and language to do this.

We feel that we must apologise for building hundreds of homes for you,
which you have vandalised and destroyed.
*Never mind how the houses were built out of dangerous materials such as asbestos, badly designed, not maintained and, ultimately, only needed because we kicked you off you land and stuck you in crowded refugee camps.

We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you from
slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.
*Now, let's not let the fact that this isn't how people used to live get in the way of a good racist whinge.

We apologise for developing large farms and properties, which today feed
you, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and starving
during droughts.
*Oops! Sorry we had to kill lots of you and run the rest off your land so that we could farm it.

We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric to replace
the animal skins you used before.
*They're not needed in most of the country most of the time, but hey, you can now look just like an American rapper.

We apologise for building roads and railway tracks between cities and
building cars so that you no longer have to walk over harsh terrain.
*We're also sorry we managed to wreck many of your sacred sites while we did so. We probably should have asked first.

We apologise for paying off your vehicles when you fail to pay the
instalments.
*This doesn't really happen, but sounds good to racists.

We apologise for giving you free travel anywhere, whenever.
*This also doesn't really happen, even though we displaced you so that you were a long way away from your home.

We apologise for giving each and every member of your family $100.00 and
free travel to attend an aboriginal funeral.
*This is usually paid from a collective savings called a "chuck-in", which comes from a community's own money.

We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have
to pay.
*Oh. It's your land. Sorry about that. Funny that lots of black people have to pay rent anyway, too.

We apologise for giving you interest free loans.
*Money is a white person's way of saying sorry.

We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and
diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value.
*We also apologise for destroying huge amounts of cultural material, (we have no idea of their value), and taking all the profits for years and years and years.

We apologise for developing Ayers rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to
you so that you get all the money.
*We're also sorry that you didn't really get the land back, don't actually get much money, and still aren't allowed to live on it as you choose instead of being left on the fringes.

We apologise for allowing taxpayers money to be paid towards a daughters'
wedding ($8,000.00 each daughter).
*We're sorry for spreading all these strange lies but they make some of us feel better.

We apologise for giving you $1.7 billion per year for your 250,000 people,
which is $48,000.00 per aboriginal man, woman and child.
*And we're sorry that somehow we've managed to funnel almost all of that money to civil servants, consultants, trades, non-government organisations, and other white-created systems full of white people that only exist for a profit.

We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare,
medical care, education, etc to the tune of $1.2 billion each year.
*After the big mess we made, it's the least we can do. Really.

We apologise for you having to approach the aboriginal affairs department
to verify the above figures. For the trouble you will have identifying the
"uncle toms" in your own community who are getting richer and leaving some
of you living in squalor and poverty.
*It's really the government departments handing out money and not checking where it goes that's caused this, so sorry about that, too.

We do apologise. We really do. We humbly beg your forgiveness for all the above sins. We are only too happy to take back all the above and return you to the paradise of the "outback", whenever you are ready.
*If only we really could make it right. We do really apologise for all the racist losers we have. But ignorance and not being bothered to think about things is always easier.

*Oh, and the proper apologies with the asterisk were written by a white guy, too."

I got the above somewhere by email.

This is supposed to be a Land-Rover forum but I have to say I just wish some of you could get some experience before you start shooting off your mouths. Try living and working with Aboriginal people for a while - not just living near them - and then see if you can go up to some old woman and tell her to her face all those things you've written and how you're not at all sorry that someone took her kids decades ago.

Or maybe you could say that to my boss, who isn't that old but his family is still affected by what happened. Just come up here, sit down with him, and say all that. See if you feel so big then.

So it isn't quite as simple as you may think.

If any of you watched The 7:30 Report you would have seen a minister say that the government isn't looking at compensation because they feel that money is better spent on improvements. No doubt there will be some claims, but that isn't the point of it.

I've been to Alice Springs and other places and been hassled and been bailed up by kids near Perth and all of that but it's like judging Australia by all the drunken backpackers overseas. It certainly does happen, but it's only one part of the whole situation.

Up here I've come across idiots and heroes and that hasn't much to do with race or culture. There are people here who don't like anyone who is black, and then people who think Aboriginals are all wonderful. Obviously either viewpoint is a bit naive. I learned very quickly not to judge people by colour but by behaviour and you can get some real surprises when you start to do that! :D

No matter where you go, people are just people.

I just felt the need to point that out. A little compassion isn't going to hurt anyone and nobody is too old to learn something new, either. Now I'll get back to concentrating on Land-Rover stuff . . . which is more interesting, anyway!

[TP7]

Compensation is a media beat up. As the appology was made in parliment it is under privilage. As far as the Australian courts are concerned it did not happen. Anything said in Parliment can not be used in a court of law. Rudd was very specific about this.

[waynep]

Unfortunately I've lost the original reference to that.
Hmmm... what a shame. Well I guess it'll turn up.

However, if you read the history of who they lived, you'll notice that the Aboriginals were hunters and gatherers.
They did not stay in one place too long, carried very simple tools, did not plant crops, etc.

Aborigines (http://www.apex.net.au/~mhumphry/aborigin.html)

Another interesting read on the Australian Aboriginal diet:

Australian Aborigines--Living Off the Fat of the Land (http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/australian_aborigines.html)

They were once healthy, happy people.

Interesting sites you found there - the first is very quaint.
It reminds me of school textbooks of the 1950's. ;)
I note the disclaimer on the main page Coo-ee Australia Calling (http://www.apex.net.au/~mhumphry/): The information on these pages has been acquired from a variety of sources, but I have no way of guaranteeing its accuracy.

[Chenz]

A big part of the problem was shown yesterday when people got up and turned their backs on Brendan Nelson. These included some of Rudd's press secretary staff.

These are the type of people who like to have a sook and whine about the plight of aborignal australia but when someone puts forward a point of view thay don't agree with they turn their back or do not avail themselves of the housing, the health care and the myriad of other things that the billions and billions of dollars have been spent on over the past fifty years for aboriginals.

I hope this is the start of the step forward for them and all australia but I fear that those back turners, being the ones that make a lot of decisions for their people will only continue to whinge and complain rather than try and look forward and improve their lot.

[cookiesa]

Well... here's my 2 bob's worth
I'm fRom England originally.... now we were invaded by just about everybody! The Vikings, The Moors, The Romans and so it goes. I'm pretty sure thAt my people were at some stages enslaved, slaughtered, raped and our lands were most certainly seized...... Do I get an apology?......no. Do I get compensation?

I for one think we should all get on with the future and use the past as what it really is...... HISTORY. We can't change it, no matter that it was right or wrong.

And are we allowed to ask the really politically incorrect question here?

Were at least some of the "Stolen Generation" not taken from appalling family conditions where sexual and physical abuse were very real concerns?

Do we not remove WHITE children from similar situations even now?

Oh SORRY.

This is part of the problem. They were taken FULL STOP. No abuse was needed etc it was done because they were aboroginal and the white population of the time new better. They were removed to be brought up "just like us"

I'm not big on the whole thing but the apology is appropriate and compensation, just like wrongly removed white children and their families have recieved is justified.

The English would want to be very careful about going down the path of "we were invaded" every country YOU invaded and tried to enforce your way of life etc has seen nothing but troubles. Go on name a country England Invaded... (sorry "settled") that worked. Africa? anyone want to discuss apartheid?

[cookiesa]

A big part of the problem was shown yesterday when people got up and turned their backs on Brendan Nelson. These included some of Rudd's press secretary staff.

These are the type of people who like to have a sook and whine about the plight of aborignal australia but when someone puts forward a point of view thay don't agree with they turn their back or do not avail themselves of the housing, the health care and the myriad of other things that the billions and billions of dollars have been spent on over the past fifty years for aboriginals.

I hope this is the start of the step forward for them and all australia but I fear that those back turners, being the ones that make a lot of decisions for their people will only continue to whinge and complain rather than try and look forward and improve their lot.

Or perhaps Brendon Nelson should have not tried to turn this in to political point scoring? His comments were inappropriate at that time.

As for Kevin Rudds staff I must be mistaken for thinking we live in a democracy? Since when does the leaders views DICTATE what a staff member can believe. There are also reportedly members of Brendon Nelsons staff who did the same thing. But of course that isn't newsworthy enough for our media to beat up. Yes they may have acted "inappropriately" but that is one of the basic rights of democracy.

[Gooner]

Government sanctioned free flowing compensation is not going to happen thankfully.
If any victim wants damages for pain and suffering, they are going to have to take their chances within the legal system, that to me is fair enough. If the Stolen Generations (geez I hate that label) can prove their claims, they should be properly compensated.
I am only aware of one case whereby a Stolen Generation member has succeeded in receiving compensation under the legal system.
What am I to make of this statistic?

Lowitja O'Donoghue (who worked with Mr Rudd on the apology) first claimed to be stolen, but now admits that her father 'relinquished' her and her siblings.
I wonder how many more cases are such as this. I have no doubt kids were stolen, but 'Stolen', thanks to Mr Rudd, now covers any circumstance whereby a child was seperated from their parent(s).
And as for Generations, what a load of nonsense. We now have the world thinking we stole whole generations of Aboriginal kids from their parents.

Kyoto and the apology, are hardly two of the biggest challenges facing Australia. Tokenism at best.

[procrastination inc]

And as for Generations, what a load of nonsense. We now have the world thinking we stole whole generations of Aboriginal kids from their parents....

50,000 kids removed over about 70 yrs, some of them "stolen" counts as generations.

[BigJon]

mother was a victom of this Stolen Generation. Fortunately she ended up with a good family who put her through uni and had a career for life and anded up with a nice family and a good home.

Surely in a case such as this, you couldn't really call her a victim? I am sure (although I obviously can't prove) her life turned out much better than had she not been rescued.

Just my opinion.

[cookiesa]

But does the end justify the means?

I'm sure what Hitler wasn't all so bad was it? A Blue Eyed Blonde haired race? Does the end result justify his method?

(Obviously this is an extreme example)

[BigJon]

I would say that example is so ridiculous as to be completely pointless, but that is just my opinion :p.

[cookiesa]

All right how about we lock people up without trial for a few years because they may be terrorists?

(I don't include people like David Hicks in this, he was training with them)

[Gooner]

procrastination inc wrote:
50,000 kids removed over about 70 yrs, some of them "stolen" counts as generations.
Unsnip

Hardly.
Anyway your logic will be tested by how many of these '50,000' seek compensation through the courts over the coming years.

[Jamo]

IMO this thread hilights the problem.

Too much too and fro, finger pointing and argument as to who was/is right and who/was is wrong.

None of it helps the plight of the aboriginal people.

A lot less 'debate' and a lot more action is what's needed.

[Rangier Rover]

The law suits may be the benefisheries of this!:(:angrylock:

[waynep]

groan ,,, going round in circles ...time to lock this one up I think mods

[Rangier Rover]

groan ,,, going round in circles ...time to lock this one up I think modsAgree:nazilock:

[Reads90]

Ali,

To make it worse, alcohol is not part of aboriginal culture, and never has been. Therefore it has drastic effects on their liver and kidneys. Most other races have brewed some form of alcohol and adjusted to it over decades.


Cheers,

I was told that the Aboriginals were the only race on the planet that never invented Alcohol themsleves. They are also the only race never to grow there own food (ie Crops) which is proberly somthing to do with the fact of why they never invented Alcohol

[Reads90]

Not nearly as often now that we are a "dry" town. No one camping in the river anymore. Still dop get them wandering the streets drunk, but it is noticeably better now than it was prior to the dry town legislation. Mind you, from what I hear Coober Pedy and Mt Isa have had a population explosion - no dry town there yet. Katherine has recently become dry, that would contribute as well.

Having said that, I walk my dog most mornings and it isn't uncommon to see empty beer cans / bottles strewn over footpaths and the oval I go to. I think the problem is one of enforcement - not enough coppers to go around.


Did not effect our love for Alice. Both me and the wife found it our faveroute town in Aus . And Would live there. The people are nice and has a top Curry house:):)

[cartm58]

just so there is no confusion in anyone mind legal action for and behalf of any alleged stolen person has no connection with apology made by the PM.

the grounds for any legal action existed before the apology was made.

the courts will determine any compensation due based on individual merits of each case.

this is of course different to any Govt compensation fund set up to compensate for the any alleged stolen person such as established by the Tasmanian State Govt and being considered by by the WA and SA State Govts.

whether a apology was owed or due is irrelevant now its been given by the parliament supported by all sides of politics.

[Slunnie]

I do not quite think that is what he meant by aboriginal hunting ground(licence to hunt aboriginals):o
Should never have occured and while we can make jokes was a tragedy.
I wasn't making jokes. My thoughts were about the Aboriginal Hunting grounds at Lake Frome in the Flinders Ranges, where quite literally the area is controlled while the Aboriginal folk hunt.

[Redback]

I wasn't making jokes. My thoughts were about the Aboriginal Hunting grounds at Lake Frome in the Flinders Ranges, where quite literally the area is controlled while the Aboriginal folk hunt.

All the way to Mt Chambers as well Simon, we camped near Mt Chambers and had a look at the rock art there, it's free camping all through there too, that whole area is well managed and looked after by the local Adnymathanha people.

Baz.

[harro]

IMO this thread hilights the problem.

Too much too and fro, finger pointing and argument as to who was/is right and who/was is wrong.

None of it helps the plight of the aboriginal people.

A lot less 'debate' and a lot more action is what's needed.

Hear Hear !

[wardy1]

This is part of the problem. They were taken FULL STOP. No abuse was needed etc it was done because they were aboroginal and the white population of the time new better. They were removed to be brought up "just like us"

I'm not big on the whole thing but the apology is appropriate and compensation, just like wrongly removed white children and their families have recieved is justified.

The English would want to be very careful about going down the path of "we were invaded" every country YOU invaded and tried to enforce your way of life etc has seen nothing but troubles. Go on name a country England Invaded... (sorry "settled") that worked. Africa? anyone want to discuss apartheid?

ummmm Apartheid was nothing to do with the poms...... Sth Africa was mainly colonised by the Dutch.

Lets just keep the history right :D

[RonMcGr]

ummmm Apartheid was nothing to do with the poms...... Sth Africa was mainly colonised by the Dutch.

Lets just keep the history right :D

True, I think only a only a couple were British, Rhodesia and Kenya ??.

[stevo68]

Originally Posted by Jamo https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/768.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/51463-rudds-apology-post690725.html#post690725)
IMO this thread hilights the problem.

Too much too and fro, finger pointing and argument as to who was/is right and who/was is wrong.

None of it helps the plight of the aboriginal people.

A lot less 'debate' and a lot more action is what's needed.
I kind of touched on this in the other thread, but is it "plight" or is it "choice". Forget the skin colour as there is "plight" or what I prefer to call "choice" that is existant with all sorts of Australians. Why is it that people from 3rd world conditions can come to Australia and make a great life for themselves, build a business, a family, educate their children. But those that are born on the doorstep of all those possibilities, don't take advantage of it. It has nothing to do with skin colour as I have worked with people of all nationalities. Success in life is a choice, where does self responsibility come into the equation. The bloke that sold our house to us, him and his brother, originally from Sri Lanka I think, run a hugely successful real estate agency. Their parents arrived here with squat.

One might argue " well thats all they know" and you'd be right, but that applies across the board ie black or white Australian. If a child is bought up in squalor, Dad doesnt work, Mum doesnt work, Uncles/Aunties dont work....what do you think the mindset of the child is going to be. A few will grow up and aim for a better life...hence "Choice"...many will repeat what they grew up with.

Hence why in my mind, I don't care what race/colour you are, it is whether I can respect you as an individual, what do you bring to the table, how do you approach your life, are you a "sinker" or a "swimmer". When life throws you a curve ball, do you abbregate responsibility or take it on the chin, no matter how one might hurt inside. I guess and using that example that I highlighted as it is indicative through out this and the other chat..along with comments that "we" whitey made it that way for the aboriginals..in this case...and I would argue that they made it that way for themselves...and when I say for themselves...let me stress those that live in less that great conditions....not unlike any other person who lives in crappy conditions. ( Please note I am talking about a person born with 2 arms/legs/a brain..ie the same opportunity at life as the next person),

Regards

Stevo

[olmate]

I have impressed myself - there is so much that I just am bursting to say about this 'thing that happened yesterday' but I wont. This thread is not good for too much.

I didn't agree with it but... we do need sort out the problems in the communities and that is where our energy needs to be focussed. :D

[stevo68]

LOL, Any takers?https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/02/311.jpgfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/STEPHE%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ Your point being?? I haven't seen any redneck views whatsoever, if anything different view points. As per another thread on how some of these issues have been discussed on the whole with maturity and you fling that up..........how ridiculous,

Regards

Stevo

[moretonisle]

To Duncanw,
they lived happily without us for 40,000 years.
Maybe we stuffed their way of life over the last 200 years.
I am glad the government apologised for its actions.

[harro]

I am very sorry Stevo68.
There was no harm intended in any way.
I was simply trying to lighten up what has been a very intense discussion:(.

[cucinadio]

I kind of touched on this in the other thread, but is it "plight" or is it "choice". Forget the skin colour as there is "plight" or what I prefer to call "choice" that is existant with all sorts of Australians. ............Stevo


mate all l can say is, l would love having a few reds with you at the wine and pizza night, having a good natter about what you r saying :D because a discussion to the lengths we could go to, is far to much to type :angel:

cheers

P.S Mate let me also say, that i mean this is a totally respectful way ! l like a person who has belief in his/hers convictions, ld really would love to sit down over a few good ones and have a discussion with attitude about any lively issues, as l do with my own friends

cheers

[RonMcGr]

Your point being?? I haven't seen any redneck views whatsoever, if anything different view points. As per another thread on how some of these issues have been discussed on the whole with maturity and you fling that up..........how ridiculous,

Regards

Stevo

Stevo,

Settle down!

The heat in Cairns and Darwin does odd things to some people :D
"Going Troppo" I think they call it :)

[CraigE]

I think you're quite wrong there. I think this will create more unity than the naysayers will be prepared to see.

It takes a brave man to freely express his views, but an even braver one to look inside himself and expunge all those irrational fears and dark long held prejudices.

Wayne,
I really hope I am wrong, but from experience I fear not.
I do sincerely hope we can move forward and work together now and get over the blame game.
I personally could not care what colour or race anyone is as long as we are treated and treat each other with some respect and above all self respect.

[CraigE]

Ali,
You are bang on and this is the side most city dwellers do not see. Even a lot of town aboriginals are not fully aware of this issue. It is this that needs addressing urgently.
I grew up in Kalgoorlie and when we were young 17-18 and driving around Kalgoorlie we were told the same by the local police and aboriginal friends, not to stop. I personally had two friends that stopped on the back bypass road to assist and had the bejesus beaten out of them and also an aquaintance (a lovely young lady) that stopped to to the right thing and was beaten to an inch of her life, raped and then had her car stolen. This type of thing is fact and not Urban Myth. I was also in town for 3 lots of race riots, but got out of the way. A friend had his car completely destroyed just because he was white. There were quite a few of us white and black that did not want to be involved in these sad events.
The old town drunks were fine and seldom got abusive, most of the time we would actually sit and have a chat and give them some spare change and smokes as the converstation was worth it. It was when the younger aggressive ones started demanding money and smokes that we would tell them to go away and occassionally end up fighting.
The majority were good and I had a lot of aboriginal friends in Kal and some really nasty aggressors.
I remember the benefits of being friends with the local Wongai community as well, got into a big blue with some rednecks in Kal. Out numbered about 3 - 1 when out of the shadows stepped about 50 young Wongai fellas and step shoulder to shoulder with us because we new 3 or 4 of them.
There is good and bad all over, more good than bad but it is often less seen. I urge people before they comment to much to have a look at some of these remote communities where it is absolute squalor. We have also met some fantastic aboriginals in some of these communities as well, really really nice people and by george when you are accepted you are accepted big time.
A bit of topic of the apology, but hopefully puts some context behind things. An apology is not going to help these people help themselves.
:(:(


when i drove around Australia it opened my eyes alot to the state of the aboriginals.
we first came across aboriginals in S/A and that was the drunk one in the middle of the high street and asking you for money , fags and other stuff.
Then we were told by serveral travels (Nomads , and truck drivers) not to stop for Aboriginals and to hit them if they step in front of your car. This was a great shock to me , and thought a bit much and the beer talking or taking the **** out of the pom.
It was not untill i came to Leonora police station (where i went to pick up my Aboriginal permit to drive the track) I was asked what car i had and if i had a bull bar . I was then told (By a what look like mixed Aboriginal race Copper) that if any aboriginal jump out in front of me or stood in the road then hit them with the bull bar. The lastest trick was to have woman with a baby stand in the road for you to stop. They said if this happens then hit them too. If you hit someone then report it at the police station at Ayres rock. This shocked the hell out of me . They told me that 3 weeks earlyer a road train had stopped for a woman with a bady and 6 aboriginals came from a bush and beat the driver and then left him 500 k's from anywhere and took his truck .
As you drive down the track to Ayres rock there is loads and loads of burn't out cars on the side of the road. We stopped counting at 250 , in 150k. Then you know when you are getting to an Aboriginal township as the crap on the side of the road starts to build up and up , and i am talking about used nappies, Beer cans and anything else. It is disgusting.

Then in Alice springs there are Aboriginals drunk all over town and in the river bed, plus the march of the Aboriginals up to the bottle shop at 2pm..Also you come upon them in the supermarket and the smell of bozze and everyhting else is beyond belief. And that is not just one but alot of them .

You also see a newish land cruser 100 seris full of about 13 aboriginals. The police told me they can't arrest them for over loading a car. These cars are wrecked, the insides are just covered in crap (fesses) Saw loads and loads of these cars

driving to W/A you see some little townships where there are really nice house, ones i would be proud to own. You see new ones to show you what they were like and then most of them are burn't , smashed and in a state of diss repair.

Up on the way to the cape , we came across a Nissan about 6 months old that two Aboriginals drove into 2 m of ater with no snorkle. Whne the truck stopped they swam out and left it. And walked off. It was still there a month after. After all i was told this is because they don't have to pay for it

And i have not mentioned the restriction on petrol and achol all around Australia.

This is not me being rasict, but what i saw as a pom who came to Australia and traveled around. I have heard alot more stories but these are the things i saw with my own eyes. I have seen alot more but what i have put on here is enough
My Sister in law works for the goverment in Sydney and is always going on about how hard the aboriginals are trreated by the Australian goverment . After one time i nearly bought her a ticket to Alice springs, as she has never been to the outback and the only Aboriginal she has seen have been in the towns. And to show her how much the goverment spend on helping them
I argee with people who say how far do you go. After all does the UK goverment say sorry to all the convicts that were sent over here. Separteted for their wifes and familes for just nicking a loaf of bread.

Just my thoughts
Ali

[CraigE]

What you have seen sure is the bad side. White mans bloody Grog doesn't help this cause. We are having problems similar over this way. Seems to be a nasty streak in some areas.:(
So white man is the only one to invent alcohol?? I think not.

[CraigE]

I wasn't making jokes. My thoughts were about the Aboriginal Hunting grounds at Lake Frome in the Flinders Ranges, where quite literally the area is controlled while the Aboriginal folk hunt.
Sorry Slunnie, I was not insinuating you were making jokes at all. There are heaps about the issue in Tassie though.
There are still a lot of places aboriginals can hunt traditionally.
One of the highlights of my travel was being asked to attend a Coroboree near Katherine in the NT many years ago. My wife was peed off as it was for men only and a real experience.
:):)

[CraigE]

Your point being?? I haven't seen any redneck views whatsoever, if anything different view points. As per another thread on how some of these issues have been discussed on the whole with maturity and you fling that up..........how ridiculous,

Regards

Stevo

Stevo,
That is the sad thing, for having a differing opinion you get called a red neck or a racist. It is far easier for people to apply these tags and scare people into submission to justify their view point rather than debate it honestly.
Those of us that see the middle ground rather than either extremes seem to cop the most abuse.

[bushrover]

I work for a multi national mining company and we are one of the biggest employers of aboriginal people in the industry. On a visit to one of our ports a group of aboriginal trainees all in their late teens, early twenties stood quietly watching ore being loaded into a ship. Some were crying. When asked why, one of them replied 'that is our land going on that ship'. Until you understand aboriginal people and their beliefs and their customs and how incredibly attached to country they are, it is very hard to make an informed comment.

I am not convinced the apology will do much, it was needed, but I dont see how it will make a difference tomorrow or next week or twelve months time. Other actions are needed and for many years no one has had the answers. There is still a need to remove children from abuse, white and black, there is still a need to deal with the drinking and violence, white and black and there is a huge need to allow Aboriginal people the chance to fix their own problems and white Australia has to help whether it is in Redfern or Fitzroy Crossing.

There are out spoken idiots on both sides in every argument and these are usually the only ones heard, maybe we all need to listen to the ones who are not saying anything, they will have the most reasonable answers.

[Jamo]

but is it "plight" or is it "choice".


According to the Macquarie Dictionary 'plight' is a situation or existence, (usually bad).

Therefore a 'plight' may be a 'choice' or it may not be. There is no inherent qualification within the word.

[RobHay]

There are still Aboriginal hunting grounds on the mainland too.


No No No You miss understand.......these are licenses to hunt aboriginals. like you have a permit to shoot roos, only they throw spears back at you

[RobHay]

I think you may have missed something here: Last time I looked, Germany lost that war..... :angel: Other way round here isn't it?


Uhmmmmm ....bit like "The Mouse that roared" me thinks.......I have an opinion but for the sake of my fine reputation and credibility on this forum....:o:D;) I am going to keep it to myself....Oh I might tell Ho:p

[stevo68]

Where do I start :D


mate all l can say is, l would love to be with having a few reds with you at the wine and pizza night and having a good natter about what you r saying :D because a discussion to the lengths we could go to, is far to much to type :angel:

cheers

P.S Mate let me also say, that i mean this is a totally respectful way ! l like a parson who's has belief in his/hers convictions, I'm saying this is in a way that l really would love to sit down over a few good ones and have a discussion with attitude about any lively issues, as l do with my own friends

cheers Mate, for starters I drink beer :D, secondly, yep always up for a good conversation, though am a firm believer of " I think therefore I am", ultimately it is up to the individual, as long as you are happy where you are, doing what you do, that is all that matters. Like many things, this is the hot topic of today and in a couple of weeks it will be something else.


I am very sorry Stevo68.
There was no harm intended in any way.
I was simply trying to lighten up what has been a very intense discussion:( Mate, no need to be sorry to me per se, but when you have a discussion like this, whereby people with different points of view are being labelled exactly that in one way or another, I guess, for me, didn't exactly find it appropriate.


Stevo,

Settle down!

The heat in Cairns and Darwin does odd things to some people :D
"Going Troppo" I think they call it :) Its all right Ron, as you have told me before and others :angel:, to settle down and have a Bex, I am settled, takes a bit to get me riled up :).


Stevo,
That is the sad thing, for having a differing opinion you get called a red neck or a racist. It is far easier for people to apply these tags and scare people into submission to justify their view point rather than debate it honestly.
Those of us that see the middle ground rather than either extremes seem to cop the most abuse. I agree, on topic's such as this, one cannot seem to offer a differing perspective without being tut tutted, or how can we have this in this day and age and so forth.


uote: Originally Posted by stevo68 https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/768.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/51463-rudds-apology-post690844.html#post690844)
but is it "plight" or is it "choice".
According to the Macquarie Dictionary 'plight' is a situation or existence, (usually bad).

Therefore a 'plight' may be a 'choice' or it may not be. There is no inherent qualification within the word. Like anything, we all have an opinion, generally based on our own perceptions of life, our experiences, the people we surround ourselves with. Some people sail through life, others face experiences some of us could never imagine, some fall by the wayside, others come out on top. Why? From my experience, it boils down to Choice. Is everyone going to be rich and successful, is everybody going to lead the life that they choose to live, is life going to be fair to all? Its the choices you make as an individual that will determine many things. You can have a person who has all their faculties, all the opportunities that a country that Australia has to offer and does nothing with it. They will finger point elsewhere but forget that there are 4 fingers pointing back at them. Then there will be examples where the person has nothing, or something that would hold the average person back, or some disadvantage and yet they shine through....because they choose too.

Think that covers all the responses :D, like anyone else I am just offering an opinion, I have found that on these sort of topics it is always interesting to get other peoples perspectives, cause at the end of the day, I only know my own. Won't always agree, but at least it is interesting,

Regards

Stevo

[RonMcGr]

It has started..:(

Neville Austin launches first stolen generations claim in Victoria | NEWS.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23216951-2,00.html)

<snip>
It is believed his solicitors have briefed seasoned barrister Jack Rush, QC, who last year helped extract a $4 billion payout from James Hardie Industries for sufferers of asbestos-related disease.
<snip>

[Ace]

To many people are looking at the aboriginals in terms of the behaviour of some of the population, there are planty of "white" alchoholics and theives and druggies aswell, does that make us lump all of the "white" population into the same basket? I think not. What people are not looking at is what actually happened. White people came into aboriginal camps and siezed peoples children and took them away never to be seen again. Think if this was you and someone did this to your children because they deemed you unfit to bring up children, regardless of the fact that the aboriginal people had been doing it, without modern medicine for hundreds of years. This is what the apology was for, nothing else. As for compensation, i believe that many of the states said that there wouldnt be any as a result of the apology.

All this about aboriginals do this and aboriginals do that is irrelevant, and as some have iluded to the next step is to help fix that problem. The schools in aboriginal communities are second rate at best with second rate resources, and to alot of these kids education has no value because they dont see an out. What are they going to do with a school certificate in the middle of no where, to them it is meaningless. I have thought about moving to an aboriginal community to work in the schools but at the moment i cant fiancially move anywhere let alone that far. There needs to be incentive to get teachers out there and work with these kids, and in the communities where it is happening, the elders within the community are working along side the teachers and achieving top results with some students obtaining scholarships to private schools.

I have been, in the past, one of those sceptics who criticise them for their behaviour, drinking etc, and i think as a nation we need to move past this and look at solving the problem, not ignoring like has been the case until now. Matt

[strangy]

when i drove around Australia it opened my eyes alot to the state of the aboriginals.
we first came across aboriginals in S/A and that was the drunk one in the middle of the high street and asking you for money , fags and other stuff.
Then we were told by serveral travels (Nomads , and truck drivers) not to stop for Aboriginals and to hit them if they step in front of your car. This was a great shock to me , and thought a bit much and the beer talking or taking the **** out of the pom.
It was not untill i came to Leonora police station (where i went to pick up my Aboriginal permit to drive the track) I was asked what car i had and if i had a bull bar . I was then told (By a what look like mixed Aboriginal race Copper) that if any aboriginal jump out in front of me or stood in the road then hit them with the bull bar. The lastest trick was to have woman with a baby stand in the road for you to stop. They said if this happens then hit them too. If you hit someone then report it at the police station at Ayres rock. This shocked the hell out of me . They told me that 3 weeks earlyer a road train had stopped for a woman with a bady and 6 aboriginals came from a bush and beat the driver and then left him 500 k's from anywhere and took his truck .
As you drive down the track to Ayres rock there is loads and loads of burn't out cars on the side of the road. We stopped counting at 250 , in 150k. Then you know when you are getting to an Aboriginal township as the crap on the side of the road starts to build up and up , and i am talking about used nappies, Beer cans and anything else. It is disgusting.

Then in Alice springs there are Aboriginals drunk all over town and in the river bed, plus the march of the Aboriginals up to the bottle shop at 2pm..Also you come upon them in the supermarket and the smell of bozze and everyhting else is beyond belief. And that is not just one but alot of them .

You also see a newish land cruser 100 seris full of about 13 aboriginals. The police told me they can't arrest them for over loading a car. These cars are wrecked, the insides are just covered in crap (fesses) Saw loads and loads of these cars

driving to W/A you see some little townships where there are really nice house, ones i would be proud to own. You see new ones to show you what they were like and then most of them are burn't , smashed and in a state of diss repair.

Up on the way to the cape , we came across a Nissan about 6 months old that two Aboriginals drove into 2 m of ater with no snorkle. Whne the truck stopped they swam out and left it. And walked off. It was still there a month after. After all i was told this is because they don't have to pay for it

And i have not mentioned the restriction on petrol and achol all around Australia.

This is not me being rasict, but what i saw as a pom who came to Australia and traveled around. I have heard alot more stories but these are the things i saw with my own eyes. I have seen alot more but what i have put on here is enough
My Sister in law works for the goverment in Sydney and is always going on about how hard the aboriginals are trreated by the Australian goverment . After one time i nearly bought her a ticket to Alice springs, as she has never been to the outback and the only Aboriginal she has seen have been in the towns. And to show her how much the goverment spend on helping them
I argee with people who say how far do you go. After all does the UK goverment say sorry to all the convicts that were sent over here. Separteted for their wifes and familes for just nicking a loaf of bread.

Just my thoughts
Ali

Valid observations, however, this is the dark side of Indigenous life. I lived in aboriginal communities for 5 years in Arnhem Land (not white towns with Aboriginals, real communities) My wife and three kids were the safest they have ever been in this country. I agree with 99% of the opinions expressed on these posts because they paint an overall picture of the problems in Aboriginal Australia. My Aboriginal friends and family who made me and my family feel welcome and part of the community, looked out for our safety and taught us things we would never have known, had we stayed in country NSW. They are genuine people who assist in school programmes, medical clinics and paliative home care programmes, for less money per week than a Woolies shelf packer. They express to me and others that reconciliation/ apologies are just words. (same as non indigenous society) They want to share with us and us with them, just like we share on this forum and with friends etc. Most dont want money. The ones who do want money will always be there just like the people who sue McDonalds because the coffee is too hot. Check the history of how Aboriginal communites/camps came to be... in some cases less than 60 years ago.

Our city parks have drunks and general rifraff, you just dont notice it. Aboriginal Aust. has some mammoth issues to overcome, but, there are some sensational people with vision and dreams trying and succeeeding. It is just not reported.

[Xavie]

Will the relatives of "The Man" apologise to me for the stolen camera and other items from my car.

I got the camera back when I "made a citizens arrest" of one of the perpetrators but not anything else or the damage to the locks on my Rangie. Although the one who was arrested wanted an apology from me, actually she wanted me arrested for restraining her. Yes she was a first cousin of "The Man".

Will they also apologise to me for the several episodes of fare evasion when I was driving a taxi?

Diana

I've been in a similar situation to you Diana. And we both know full well we will never get anything back. And the idea of this sorry fixing anything in my mind is just ridiculous.

It was an emotionally charged day and now it has gone. If it makes a difference to enough people I'll be pleased but i doubt it will.

I don't believe an apology 30 years down the track is useful to anyone and I think if Krudd wanted to do something he should of just whacked all the money into all the things we will be paying for now like the medical, school etc.. And instead of paying this compensation he could of put that into education for the Indigenous and medical.

But if people are compensated I'm sure I'm not the only one to think that they money won't be going in to the right things for many of them.

In a sense I'm ashamed of saying this stuff but.... That's what I believe.

I'd rant more but it feels pretty useless. Oh but for the record. I saw nothing wrong with Dr Nelsons speech and people who did I believe have their head stuck in the clouds. He's been one of the only politicians who has tried to always do the right thing by Indigenous people.

[procrastination inc]

Neville Austin launches first stolen generations claim in Victoria | NEWS.com.au

If it is PROVED in a court of law that any of these people were unlawfully removed from their families, then they are duely owed compensation.

This is true regardless of recent politicing.

If it is PROVED, will Andrew Bolt and Sophie Mirabella retract their denials?

[cartm58]

Be intersting to run a poll and see who agrees with Rudd version or the version of the Apology posted here.

As for the threats of sueing for compensation anyone who is goign to sue will do so regardless of whether apology made or not.

As for grounds for sueing nothing can justify legal action against Commonwealth Govt, it will be the religious and charitable organisations who ran the camps getting the legal headaches.

Personally its not a question of abogriginal abuse in these institutions any kid black white boy or girl who was in them got treated the same and all should be entitled to an apology from the Governments who failed to ensure they were given appropriate care and protection from child molesting abusive types who staffed these instutions.

As for it being a stolen generation, can someone tell me what we going to call the now generation in aboriginal administered govt funded townships where children and women are being beaten and raped today. The let down generation and we going to be saying sorry for not acting sooner to stop them being beaten and raped and we going to be saying sorry for not removing them from their appalling living conditions.

Politicians and the social welfare industry have a lot to answer for

[mudmouse]

Any legal test will surely have to conducted on a case by case basis. If any 'class action' is preferred then it will be a confirmed JOKE! It wasn't a conspiritist extermination program, it was what was thought to be the 'right' thing to do at the time, wrong or right whats done is done. Money never helped an individual get over anything...neither did saying sorry.

[duncanw]

To Duncanw,
they lived happily without us for 40,000 years.
Maybe we stuffed their way of life over the last 200 years.
I am glad the government apologised for its actions.

Well the aboriginals were / are nomads who roamed the land with the seasons completely isolated from anywhere else, they have been treated badly but no more than any other race on the planet.

Its funny because when I first arrived in this country I actually felt sorry for the way they have been treated (which is the view of most people from England) but over the past 12 years of being here living near and yes working with indigenous Australians it has changed my point of view dramatically. When I went back to England last year the talk drifted towards how badly they are treated and everyone was shocked by my attitude towards them.

I could go on for pages of the things I've experienced (mostly bad but some good) but I would only be adding fuel to the fire, apologies are just words and if they truly want a better life then its given to them on a golden platter and its up to them to change it. Its all very well for the hippies to hold hands and sing cum by ya around a camp fire but its not really helping anyone much.

It seems most people who don't like a differing point of view label anyone as racist without knowing what a true racist is. Go to any small town in england and you will experience racism even though you are the same colour and speak the same language but you might live 5 miles away in another town.

[45tr0]

okay, i think i've lurked on this thread long enough. I joined this site a while ago, and have been reading the articles while i learn my way around my series III. I love this forum, and the info i've found here has been invaluable.



Money never helped an individual get over anything...neither did saying sorry.

Mudmouse: I agree that Money is a hollow compensation, and really doesn't help people heal - the amount of suing for this and that that goes on in this world is ridiculous. but I completely disagree that saying sorry never helped an individual get over anything.

What is the one of the first thing we teach our kids?
If they do something which hurts someone else, we make them say sorry.
It doesn't matter if they didn't mean to do it. It doesn't matter if their friends told them to. We get them to acknowledge that their actions have caused hurt, and that they are remorseful for that hurt.

What is our typical response when we find out someone has suffered a loss in their family? We say sorry. Sure, I might not be guilty of killing your grandma. But it doesn't mean I can't feel sorry for your loss.

We ask murderers and criminals to apologise to victims and their families all the time, to allow them to gain closure.

Sorry won't undo the wrongs, but it might allow people to begin the process of moving on.

Someone earlier in this thread asked why an apology is important? Because the people who were wronged want one. It doesn't matter that you or I weren't personally responsible. It matters that these people are hurting, and we as humans should feel some empathy for that.

A few people in this thread have expressed the view that we should just get on with what needs to be done. Fair enough, but could you honestly work side by side with someone who slapped you in the face, knowing they felt no remorse for their actions? or even the child of that person, knowing they wouldn't even consider apolgising for the embarrassing actions of their parents?

This apology has removed some of the blocks, and maybe now we can start to work together properly.

Compensation is a seperate matter, and it's inevitable that some black fellas(ironically, the ones who have taken to "white justice" the best) will go chasing it, the same way that some white fellas will also always have a crack at compo if they think they're in with a chance of making some easy money.

Reckon you'd be any keener for them to scrap the compo claims, and instead use black fella justice? We could spear every politician in the leg... just a thought... :D

Look - end of the day: We're all people. some white, some black, some dickheads, some greedy and some just upset. Oh, and remember - some black fella's drive landys too :)

[zulu Delta 534]

Why is it that today, we, the people who consider ourselves to be so wise and well educated, and who attained this wonderful level of education by drawing on recorded accumulation of thoughts of past generations of brilliant minds, are so willing to say that all before us were maligned, ignorant and wrong.
How will what we are doing today be judged by future generations.
Are we so egotistic that we think that all we are doing today, regardless of the field, is perfectly right and will withstand the obvious changes in community thinking to come.
Of course, once all direct contact with this current generation has died out then later generations can view our actions as they see fit and be guided by whichever of the countless “computer forums” or “media releases” they wish to choose as being a ‘true’ representation of the day and rewrite history and re-educate their youth accordingly.
Government policies of the day (which we in a democracy believe are the policies of the majority of the people) were the cause of the ‘Stolen generation’, and this policy was reached by standard government measures no different to those we have today.
In today’s humanitarian climate the current government felt that a ‘sorry’ statement was warranted and was resultantly forthcoming, and I, as an Australian citizen must honour this thought whether I personally agree with it or not, BUT I want it noted that I do claim the right to retract this thought in another hundred years or so if /when the thoughts and attitudes of the populace of this wonderful country swings once again in a different direction, one possibly that we, today, probably cannot even begin to imagine.
Glen

[BigJon]

What is our typical response when we find out someone has suffered a loss in their family? We say sorry. Sure, I might not be guilty of killing your grandma. But it doesn't mean I can't feel sorry for your loss.


You might, I don't. Maybe it is because I have a malformed sympathy gland, but I just don't do that. If someone says it to me in a similar situation I can't help but think "Now why would they be sorry? Did they do it?".

Perhaps it has got to do with the individuals interpretation of the word sorry. I think to use the word sorry you have to A: Have done the wrong thing and B: actually be repentant of those actions.

With regard to the "current apology" being discussed, I didn't do anything wrong (refer to A) and therefore I can't be repentant (B).

Mind you, this is my personal opinion and if other people don't agree then that is fine. Moreover, if others actually feel better because of what has been said then that is fine too. Who am I to rain on other peoples parades? :D

[muddydigger]

what a shame that some members here cant have the empathy to embrace a violated people. What a disgrace

[crump]

what a shame that some members here cant have the empathy to embrace a violated people. What a disgrace
and yet, your signature is in conflict with what you just posted???

[CraigE]

It has started..:(

Neville Austin launches first stolen generations claim in Victoria | NEWS.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23216951-2,00.html)

<snip>
It is believed his solicitors have briefed seasoned barrister Jack Rush, QC, who last year helped extract a $4 billion payout from James Hardie Industries for sufferers of asbestos-related disease.
<snip>

Ah, ah.

[Offender90]

All i'm going to say is . A lot of people are going to get rich and the tax payer is going to have to foot the bill ....... great work kevin rudd ya pair of clown shoes :mad:

The way I see it... 12 million taxpayers, 25000 affected indigenous people... and lets face it, they should be compensated to some degree by what they've been through...

I can't imagine how much I'd want if I'd been through a similar ordeal... assume they'll get $100,000 each on average... =$25 billion/12 million people = $210 each = peanuts in the grand sceme of things... and you can feel you've done the right thing and move on... a small pricew indeed in my mind.

[CraigE]

The way I see it... 12 million taxpayers, 25000 affected indigenous people... and lets face it, they should be compensated to some degree by what they've been through...

I can't imagine how much I'd want if I'd been through a similar ordeal... assume they'll get $100,000 each on average... =$25 billion/12 million people = $210 each = peanuts in the grand sceme of things... and you can feel you've done the right thing and move on... a small pricew indeed in my mind.
It is more like 50,000 people allegedly affected, so say $50 Billion. Nothing else gets done in this country for a few years. And what if the payouts are more? The money gets wasted, nothing changes. Spend the money helping all disadvataged people to get a start. Money is diverted from hospitals, schools, infrastructure. Fine if you want to contribute, but I dont.
There were injustices done, but also a lot of neccessary removals. Time to move on like the rest of the world.

[harro]

and yet, your signature is in conflict with what you just posted???

It's a sad day when a moderator takes sides in what is clearly an emotive issue.
Best you stick to moderating and not sympathise with a predominant view.

This thread should have been locked up ages ago, what is it with you guys, entertainment?
:firedevil::firedevil::firedevil::firedevil::fired evil:

[CraigE]

It's a sad day when a moderator takes sides in what is clearly an emotive issue.
Best you stick to moderating and not sympathise with a predominant view.

This thread should have been locked up ages ago, what is it with you guys, entertainment?
:firedevil::firedevil::firedevil::firedevil::fired evil:

The point of these forums is every one should be able to voice their opinion. I do respect every ones opinion that is different to mine, however I may disagree. The mods are entitled to their opinion and to voice it the same as the rest of us.
It is not entertainment but discussion and I will not back away from my view point, nor do I expect any one else to. These discussions will be taking place in every workplace, home and public area at the momment.
At the end of the day if you do not like what is being said do not read or take part in the thread and if you dislike the way the forum is run or its content then maybe its time to move on.
If the majority are saying one thing then maybe that should tell you something.
If you want to say sorry and pay compensation then that is fine and your decision, but for those of us who disagree we should be entitled to take our stance as well. It does not for a minute mean that a lot of us do not feel for these people and what they have been through, but there are many more that have been through similar or worse. There is a hell of a lot more to it than the simplistic view of people being removed from their families.

[muddydigger]

and yet, your signature is in conflict with what you just posted???

I beg your pardon? Just how the F*** do you figure that one out??
Plainly there are members here whom display an ignorant lack of understanding for what has been done to these people for 200 years.
I dont care if you disagree with or not and wish to argue it but base your replies on FACT not half thruths. I can tell you hald the crud written here is just that Unsubstansiated garbage based on inunedo and falicy.
In the last 90 years an estimated 100,000 children were forcibly removed from their families. placed in missions,, made awards of the state and violated, beaten,molested, raped and beaten. All because of the colour of their skin. Why is it that people think that this happened in ancient history?? it didn't, it happened as late as as 1973. Do you know how I know that, as a FACT? because my wife was one of them MATE!! my Wife's mother was another one of them MATE. MY Mother in law was severely beaten as child just for looking wrongly at a white child.
MATE I have intmatye knolledge of what some of these people have been through so If you care to argue it go ahead. Moderator or not I personally couldnt give rats if your were the queen of Sheba, Dont insult me by telling me my posts contradict my signature. My posts are my opinion, and like you Iam perfectly entitled to express them, and to that end if disagree with your post Im going to tell you I disagree with you.
Your right there are a lot of people whom have been through worse, but alot of these people have also been and have there day in court and been recompensed fro the pain and suffering. But now that it has been formally recognized that what ws done to 100,000 people was WRONG both humanely and in law, they too should be recompensed for pain and suffering. I dont care if you agree with me or not that is my opinion and expressed so.

[ScrubPleb]

My little neighbour (10 years old) just said to me,"Kevin Rudd said sorry to my Pop for the government stealing him when he was little. He's real happy. And Pop said it can't happen anymore. That's good."

I don't need any more than that to know an apology was the right thing to do.

[incisor]

can anyone tell me how many children were forcibly removed from their parents during this time, white black or brindle ?

or how many babies were forcibly adopted out, white black or brindle ?

there has been a lot of rhetoric about this but, very little mentioned about the general views of society and how that impacted on the everyday lives of most living in Australia during this era, white black or brindle ?

i also take the time to remind people that playing the man, will not win you the argument and that if you take the time to write your message in a coherent manner, most will take the time to read and absorb your comment instead of fobbing you off..

[Barra1]

My little neighbour (10 years old) just said to me,"Kevin Rudd said sorry to my Pop for the government stealing him when he was little. He's real happy. And Pop said it can't happen anymore. That's good."

I don't need any more than that to know an apology was the right thing to do.

This is/was all about children. I guess, maybe, a child, no less, has summarised the twelve previous pages of emotion, comment, whatever.

Is there really anything more that could be added to the child's comment.

[Reads90]

It is more like 50,000 people allegedly affected, so say $50 Billion. Nothing else gets done in this country for a few years. And what if the payouts are more? The money gets wasted, nothing changes. Spend the money helping all disadvataged people to get a start. Money is diverted from hospitals, schools, infrastructure. Fine if you want to contribute, but I dont.
There were injustices done, but also a lot of neccessary removals. Time to move on like the rest of the world.


As my boss said the other day
Pay them and then make sure there is a line under it (not like NZ where they want more in 10 years) And after all they will all spend it all and it will go back into the economy for everyoine to share. :)

[waynep]

If the majority are saying one thing then maybe that should tell you something.
.

Actually I'd say it was about evens on this one. Haven't done a count of posts but just my general impression going back through the discussion. The people with more "conservative" or "harder" views tend to have a more aggressive attitude and vocalise more in these debates, but this time those with the "softer" views, (for want of a better word ) who normally stay in the back ground, have come out and put their point of view. That may also be part of the reason for the upset in the election.
It's interesting to correlate the global warming debate and this one. I could just about pick who'd line up on each side ;)
Rational debate is healthy, as long as it doesn't get threatening or personal.
Just be thankful we have the freedom to do it.

[ScrubPleb]

can anyone tell me how many children were forcibly removed from their parents during this time, white black or brindle ?

or how many babies were forcibly adopted out, white black or brindle ?
..

No,I can't. But I can tell you that the number of white children removed solely for being white was zero. While in some cases just being black or brindle was enough.

[incisor]

No,I can't. But I can tell you that the number of white children removed solely for being white was zero. While in some cases just being black or brindle was enough.
you what another try?

[BigJon]

what a shame that some members here cant have the empathy to embrace a violated people. What a disgrace

I hope you are not reffering to me with that statement. Sympathy and empathy are not the same thing.

[harro]

The adsorbtion or breeding out of BLACK Australia was actually an accepted topic of discussion among Govt and intellectuals early in the previous century.

The 'Stolen Generation' was seen as putting this theory into practise:mad:

Stolen Generation Robert Manne essay (http://www.tim-richardson.net/misc/stolen_generation.html)

So maybe a few bob for their inconvenience wouldn't hurt.

[harro]

The point of these forums is every one should be able to voice their opinion. I do respect every ones opinion that is different to mine, however I may disagree. The mods are entitled to their opinion and to voice it the same as the rest of us.
It is not entertainment but discussion and I will not back away from my view point, nor do I expect any one else to. These discussions will be taking place in every workplace, home and public area at the momment.
At the end of the day if you do not like what is being said do not read or take part in the thread and if you dislike the way the forum is run or its content then maybe its time to move on.
If the majority are saying one thing then maybe that should tell you something.
If you want to say sorry and pay compensation then that is fine and your decision, but for those of us who disagree we should be entitled to take our stance as well. It does not for a minute mean that a lot of us do not feel for these people and what they have been through, but there are many more that have been through similar or worse. There is a hell of a lot more to it than the simplistic view of people being removed from their families.

A NEW moderator?

[vnx205]

I wonder how many of the people commenting on the apology have heard or read the full text of the apology and the two speeches by the PM and the Leader of the Opposition.

I was not able to hear the apology live, but have just watched the replay of the coverage on ABC TV.

Having heard only media comments about Brendan Nelson's speech and brief extracts from it, I was ready to condemn him for making comments that I believed were entirely inappropriate in the circumstances.

However having heard both the apology and the two speeches in their entirety I now find it hard to understand how anyone who was prepared to listen with an open mind could have had any objection to the apology or to either of the two speeches in support of the motion.

Taken in context, Brendan Nelson's comments sounded to me like a genuine attempt to offer support for what the PM had said and an appropriate acknowledgement of just how much needs to be done to create the sort of future that the PM envisaged.
I can't remember the last time I heard speeches by politicians with so little party politics and pointscoring.

[muddydigger]

I hope you are not reffering to me with that statement. Sympathy and empathy are not the same thing.

I am well aware of what I wrote and the definations there in.
Empathy:
–noun 1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

Empathy is required not sympathy.

[Tango51]

Moving the goalposts or disallowing part of the playing field has been the unethical norm in this country for way too long.
Remember the AWB inquiry, actually the list is boringly long and I'm sure the perceptive are all too aware.
Warning, this may make you quite angry.
Research Paper Cover (http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:F42F7qaD5ykJ:matrix.aiatsis.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/4727/DP15.pdf+documentation+stolen+generation&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=au&client=firefox-a)

[RonMcGr]

you what another try?

He certainly needs it!
Mt Father in law would be down right angry over that remark.

[muddydigger]

can anyone tell me how many children were forcibly removed from their parents during this time, white black or brindle ?

or how many babies were forcibly adopted out, white black or brindle ?

there has been a lot of rhetoric about this but, very little mentioned about the general views of society and how that impacted on the everyday lives of most living in Australia during this era, white black or brindle ?

i also take the time to remind people that playing the man, will not win you the argument and that if you take the time to write your message in a coherent manner, most will take the time to read and absorb your comment instead of fobbing you off..


Its estimated that nearly 100.000 children were forcibly removed from their homes over a period of 90 years.
Very few were taken out of concern for their welfare. In some towns in Australia kids were taken from the streets where they played and the parents were informed days later when the children were processed. Children's welfare,was not a main concern and it is a fallacy to implyor say it was.
My wife was on such baby forcibly adopted out, Her mother was also a a stolen child.
let me tell you a little story My mother in laws nephew was taken at the age of 18 months. He was one of two children. One taken one left. He was given to a young immigrant family from Holland.
They remained in Australia until he was 4 years old and then they went back to Holland with him. In Holland he was beaten by his peers on a daily bases. He was beaten so severely that he now has permanent brain damage suffering a several strokes as a result of the beatings.
The Australian Government refused to recognize him as an Australian and refused him resident status for 8 years. He was denied immigration as he was married to a dutch woman with three kids in Holland. The Immigration laws prevented him from returning to Australia as the majority of his family were said to be Holland.
He now has finally been granted residency In Australia but yet still to be granted citizenship and recognized as indigenous to this country.
There are several bits of paper verifying him as beeing removed from his family as a baby back in 1951.
Let me also just tell you that his natural mother killed herself 3 months after he was taken because she couldn't live in a society where a big brother just comes and takes your kids.
Now admittedly this is one of the bad cases but none the less it is a case and I ask you, is this man owed an apology? and if the answer is yes is IM sorry enough?
Or could it be argued that this poor bloke has been dragged through hell and back should be given some compensation so that the little time he has left can be lived out in any way he sees fit?

[Tango51]

Its estimated that nearly 100.000 children were forcibly removed from their homes over a period of 90 years.
Very few were taken out of concern for their welfare. In some towns in Australia kids were taken from the streets where they played and the parents were informed days later when the children were processed. Children's welfare,was not a main concern and it is a fallacy to implyor say it was.
My wife was on such baby forcibly adopted out, Her mother was also a a stolen child.
let me tell you a little story My mother in laws nephew was taken at the age of 18 months. He was one of two children. One taken one left. He was given to a young immigrant family from Holland.
They remained in Australia until he was 4 years old and then they went back to Holland with him. In Holland he was beaten by his peers on a daily bases. He was beaten so severely that he now has permanent brain damage suffering a several strokes as a result of the beatings.
The Australian Government refused to recognize him as an Australian and refused him resident status for 8 years. He was denied immigration as he was married to a dutch woman with three kids in Holland. The Immigration laws prevented him from returning to Australia as the majority of his family were said to be Holland.
He now has finally been granted residency In Australia but yet still to be granted citizenship and recognized as indigenous to this country.
There are several bits of paper verifying him as beeing removed from his family as a baby back in 1951.
Let me also just tell you that his natural mother killed herself 3 months after he was taken because she couldn't live in a society where a big brother just comes and takes your kids.
Now admittedly this is one of the bad cases but none the less it is a case and I ask you, is this man owed an apology? and if the answer is yes is IM sorry enough?
Or could it be argued that this poor bloke has been dragged through hell and back should be given some compensation so that the little time he has left can be lived out in any way he sees fit?
Muddydigger, my only intention in making this post is to try to bolster you for what this act of courage may attract.
So far, there have been an extraordinary number of posts that express callous disregard for humanity, blatant racism and ignorance , a level of hypocrasy that I personally found stunning, a concern with monetary loss over and above loss of life and unjust injury, expressions of disgust at how compensation money will be used (Like it is any of their business), devastating mindless hypocracy in disassociation from the events as they were perpetrated by others and in the same breath exclamations of denying indigenous people usage of introduced benefits of white society that were introduced by other whites. All of this has taken place here while speaking about non personal entities and policy.
Your exposure in making this personal contribution could very well attract more arrogant and indifferent remarks that will personally wound you and loved ones.
Admittedly I am manipulating a softer outcome by posting this, preferring a personal attack about this post than seeing that happen, but holey dooley man, what a risk you are taking!
I applaud your courage and intention of waking others up, but I question it's wisdom.
Respect,
Tango

[procrastination inc]

transcripts of both speeches linked here:

Rudd offers historic apology | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23205437-601,00.html)

Nelsons speech was clumsy and politically sloppy.

The Apology was to "the stolen generation", that is all.

Nelsons response went on to give a critique of black/white relations from the first fleet til now. He managed to identify that:

"In brutally harsh conditions, from the small number of early British settlers our non indigenous ancestors have given us a nation the envy of any in the world. But Aboriginal Australians made involuntary sacrifices, different but no less important, to make possible the economic and social development of our modern Australia."

now to my mind, he has stated that ALL aboriginals made involuntary sacrifices that were important for the prosperity of this nation.

This has much broader compensation ramifications than the pain and suffering of 50,000. He is talking about complete disenfranchisement of ALL aboriginals from the resources of their invaded country. The involuntary release of their property. How big is that compensation claim?

I would have expected a party full of lawyers to be a bit more careful than that.

[muddydigger]

Muddydigger, my only intention in making this post is to try to bolster you for what this act of courage may attract.
So far, there have been an extraordinary number of posts that express callous disregard for humanity, blatant racism and ignorance , a level of hypocrasy that I personally found stunning, a concern with monetary loss over and above loss of life and unjust injury, expressions of disgust at how compensation money will be used (Like it is any of their business), devastating mindless hypocracy in disassociation from the events as they were perpetrated by others and in the same breath exclamations of denying indigenous people usage of introduced benefits of white society that were introduced by other whites. All of this has taken place here while speaking about non personal entities and policy.
Your exposure in making this personal contribution could very well attract more arrogant and indifferent remarks that will personally wound you and loved ones.
Admittedly I am manipulating a softer outcome by posting this, preferring a personal attack about this post than seeing that happen, but holey dooley man, what a risk you are taking!
I applaud your courage and intention of waking others up, but I question it's wisdom.
Respect,
Tango


Thank you for your thoughts.
I have highlighted one case. I Know of a lot more. The above situation is real, truthful and factual. Unlike some of the BS that has so far been written here.
I am very happily married to an aboriginal person. I Have two children who are also deemed aboriginal. I have a very good understanding of government policies and any and all entitlements.

To that end Ill just remind others here that your opinion is valued as is every memebers, but be careful what you right as there are members from every race, creed colour or religious affliction and so civility is called for.

If just one of you sits back and says F&*K me may be Ill look a bit more into this, then the risk of personal insult was worth it. For this reason I ask that the thread be left open.

Ill just give this one warning however, The situation I have described is personal it is MY family, and I will not tolerate any personal attack what so ever. I would hope that moderators will show decorum and monitor any such posts.

[ScrubPleb]

you what another try?

No white child was ever the subject of misguided eugenics policies to remove them and "breed out the black". No white child was ever subject to removal for forced assimilation.
White kids were removed for any number of spurious welfare reasons, but skin colour was not one of them.
I stick by my original answer,"the number of white children removed solely for being white was zero". If you can point out where I am wrong I would welcome it.


Originally Posted by RonMcGr

He certainly needs it!
Mt Father in law would be down right angry over that remark.

I don't want to anger anyone but you don't say why he would be angry. So I can't respond. Maybe you can point out where I got it wrong.

[stevo68]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the "Stolen" generation that all this has come about was approx 13000 people? Also as has been stated, there were also tens of thousands of white children removed from homes as well. My point here, is that it seem's ok that a white child was removed, not because of their skin colour but for other reasons. If that same child also suffered abuse, poor conditions etc there doesn't seem to be the same outpouring. In other words, what ever the reason the child was removed, shouldnt that be of more concern, not just because if it did happen due to the colour of their skin?

Also having read the responses on this forum, other forums, there does seem to be a majority view, and yes I do think that says something. As I stated a long time ago earlier in the thread, I think the average Aussie has no qualms about the Apology, and those that rant " racist, ignorant etc" seem to miss that. I think it is more the underlying perception that for many it is an open door to compensation. Will there be a repeat in 20-30yrs over the current NT intervention? It is interesting that those that hold the opposing view and label, perhaps people like myself as unsympathetic, racist etc, do not try themselves to see why the majority have a conflicting view.

We are the lucky country, every body has opportunity on their doorstep. Speak to a person from a war torn, third world country and compare. Speak to somebody from South Africa and about the current atrocities that happen over there. There are children in Thailand, called Miracle Children because there mothers took a pill to terminate the pregnancy at 6-7mths, and they now live in an orphanage. I personally donate $$$ oversea's to children who live in some of these ghastly conditions. They do not have the choices that children of all colour have over here.

I think proof will be in the pudding, the Apology has been done and if that helps people move on, I think that is wonderful. If a flood of lawsuits and compensation claims come out of the woodwork, well then it will show for what it really was....ie waiting for the apology to hopefully open that door. There have been examples of good outcomes and poor outcomes from any child that was removed from a home, personally if a child was abused or suffered, that should be bloody more important than skin colour,

Regards

Stevo

[duncanw]

No white child was ever the subject of misguided eugenics policies to remove them and "breed out the black". No white child was ever subject to removal for forced assimilation.
White kids were removed for any number of spurious welfare reasons, but skin colour was not one of them.

Well that's what happened, white kids were shipped to Australia to increase the white stock when they feared that the asians would take over.

The Lost Children, 10,000 English Kids Sent To Australia - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/03/24/60II/main40269.shtml)

I'm not saying that one is worse than the other but at least the kids over here were still kept in their own country.

Oh and they didn't get handouts only a 1.6 million dollar travel fund to put the relatives in contact with them, which only 300 people have been successfully granted.

But its only white kids so it can't possibly be racist.

[stevo68]

t's a sad day when a moderator takes sides in what is clearly an emotive issue.
Best you stick to moderating and not sympathise with a predominant view.

This thread should have been locked up ages ago, what is it with you guys, entertainment? Forget the topic, but how hypocritical. What is it with you then if it is not entertainment as you are a part of the thread? Nothing gets the blood boiling more whether this thread or any other, where someone comes along, makes various comments along the way, then decides that perhaps they don't have the majority view or that it is not to their liking, that the thread should be closed:mad:. What bollocks. If you don't like the conversation..switch threads...simple.

Secondly who are you to determine as to who says what, when. Since when is it written that a Mod cannot have an opinion, it is these type of comments that are an insult to a thread that on the whole has been well discussed. As for being highly emotive, certainly for some, others like myself it isnt emotive, moreso objective and offering a view point. The predominant opposing view has been littered with anti sentiments, assumptions and aggression, highly unlikely to win any support what so ever,

Regards

Stevo

[muddydigger]

Well that's what happened, white kids were shipped to Australia to increase the white stock when they feared that the asians would take over.

The Lost Children, 10,000 English Kids Sent To Australia - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/03/24/60II/main40269.shtml)

I'm not saying that one is worse than the other but at least the kids over here were still kept in their own country.

Oh and they didn't get handouts only a 1.6 million dollar travel fund to put the relatives in contact with them, which only 300 people have been successfully granted.

But its only white kids so it can't possibly be racist.

Incorrect read previous posts! And your quoting only parts of article that suits your view point. Let me just point out a very important point that puts this into more perspective, instead of trying to assimilate the two.
The children were taken from children's homes!! they were NOT taken directly from families. There is a difference. That said its still inhumane and a dispicable act. to be lied to for 50 years.
Secondly you conviniently forgot another part of the article, they were apologised to and they are receiving compensation, some thing that many here believe that aboriginals should be denied

Oh here is quote from the article "In 1993, the Christian Brothers, responding to a lawsuit, officially apologized to the child migrants and paid reparations totaling $2.5 million dollars to 250 who'd been abused at their institutions"
the same thing has happened to thousands of aboriginal children removed from loving families and enslaved as well. So its OK to pay compo for the white kids but not the black ones?

[RonMcGr]

Originally Posted by RonMcGr

I don't want to anger anyone but you don't say why he would be angry. So I can't respond. Maybe you can point out where I got it wrong.

Okay, from the "White side' od stolen children.

As I said earlier, My Father in Laws Mother died after having their 5th child. The Authorities deemed the Father was not able to provide for the family as he was a Merchant Seaman.
He had no say what so ever, they just turned up one day and took the five children. The eldest, a Daughter was put in a Catholic convent (baptized C of E). She is still there, a 90 year old retired Nun.
Others were put in foster homes and another in an orphanage. The younger ones were told their Brothers and Sisters were dead, as was their Father. It took another 50 years and FOI to be able to track each other down. They were all very bitter when they found out the truth, that they did have brothers and sister that were alive. One died before the others were able to meet him. This was all before WW2.

[muddydigger]

Okay, from the "White side' od stolen children.

As I said earlier, My Father in Laws Mother died after having their 5th child. The Authorities deemed the Father was not able to provide for the family as he was a Merchant Seaman.
He had no say what so ever, they just turned up one day and took the five children. The eldest, a Daughter was put in a Catholic convent (baptized C of E). She is still there, a 90 year old retired Nun.
Others were put in foster homes and another in an orphanage. The younger ones were told their Brothers and Sisters were dead, as was their Father. It took another 50 years and FOI to be able to track each other down. They were all very bitter when they found out the truth, that they did have brothers and sister that were alive. One died before the others were able to meet him. This was all before WW2.

Terrible circumstances there and understandable as to why they are bitter.
I truley sypathise with how they feel.And I hope that they can live in piece from now on. Any child abuse is dipicable, and beyond my comprehension
But just let me point out by your own explanation, that they wernt taken because of the colour of their skin, like stolen black children were, which was the point of the Scrubplebs post!

[duncanw]

Incorrect read previous posts! And your quoting only parts of article that suits your view point. Let me just point out a very important point that puts this into more perspective, instead of trying to assimilate the two.
The children were taken from children's homes!! they were NOT taken from families. There is huge difference.
Secondly you conviniently forgot another part of the article, they were apologised to and they are receiving compensation, some thing that many here believe that aboriginals should be denied

Oh here is quote from the article "In 1993, the Christian Brothers, responding to a lawsuit, officially apologized to the child migrants and paid reparations totaling $2.5 million dollars to 250 who'd been abused at their institutions"
the same thing has happened to thousands of aboriginal children removed from loving families and enslaved as well. So its OK to pay compo for the white kids but not the black ones?

The children were in children's homes because the mothers put them into care while they were having a baby or taking care of the family after the war. So yeah your correct they weren't taken but I don't think that they said sure ship them to Australia and do what you like with them.

No I'm not saying that it's ok for 2.5% of those taken to be given compo and not the black ones, I was replying to your remarks that no white kids were taken to breed out the blacks.

[muddydigger]

The children were in children's homes because the mothers put them into care while they were having a baby or taking care of the family after the war. So yeah your correct they weren't taken but I don't think that they said sure ship them to Australia and do what you like with them.

No I'm not saying that it's ok for 2.5% of those taken to be given compo and not the black ones, I was replying to your remarks that no white kids were taken to breed out the blacks.

Sorry mate I never said No white kids were taken, or made any mention of breeding out the blacks. What I said was Black children were taken based on skin colour, no mention of white children at all.Your cofussing my post with some one elses.
Its a awful what has happened to both the white and black children. And now both have received an apology yet the white ones aren't being slagged off for claiming compensation for their grievances. I do not apose any child who has been in these circumstances to receive compensation.

[duncanw]

Sorry mate I never said No white kids were taken, or made any mention of breeding out the blacks. What I said was Black children were taken based on skin colour, no mention of white children at all.Your cofussing my post with some one elses.
Its a awful what has happened to both the white and black children. And now both have received an apology yet the white ones aren't being slagged off for claiming compensation for their grievances. I do not apose any child who has been in these circumstances to receive compensation.

Sorry, your right I've got you confused with scrubpleb

I think what has got most people worked up is the fact that aboriginals get quite a lot off the government as it is without adding to further the compo claims.

I'll be the first one to admit that not all aboriginals are the same and some have got morals and don't just wait for handouts but I don't think their in the majority (from what I've experienced), which is a shame because I have some very close aboriginal friends who feel the same way I do and haven't taken handouts and ingested just about everything that can do you damage like some of their relatives do.

[muddydigger]

Sorry, your right I've got you confused with scrubpleb

I think what has got most people worked up is the fact that aboriginals get quite a lot off the government as it is without adding to further the compo claims.

I'll be the first one to admit that not all aboriginals are the same and some have got morals and don't just wait for handouts but I don't think their in the majority (from what I've experienced), which is a shame because I have some very close aboriginal friends who feel the same way I do and haven't taken handouts and ingested just about everything that can do you damage like some of their relatives do.


Do you not think they are not deserving of it? they die 17 years on average younger than white people. Infant deaths are 4 times higher than white peoples. Diabetes is rampant in aboriginal communities the same as blinding eye diseases. Housing in bush areas is non existent. Education is non existent in these areas is non existent. health care is practically non existent in out lying bush areas, and so they come to the city to get help, cant assimilate to white society and fall in to the ever decreasing circles of government subsidized way of of life. The ones you see in parks.

That said, what about the junkie heroin addicts, the scum bags who live of my taxes while surfing at Byron bay? the white teen age kids responsible for the willful destruction of public schools and public and private property.

There are good and bad in all peoples be the black white or red.
And as fro the government hand outs, I can tell you that its not quite as rosy as some would have you believe.

[RonMcGr]

Terrible circumstances there and understandable as to why they are bitter.
I truley sypathise with how they feel.And I hope that they can live in piece from now on. Any child abuse is dipicable, and beyond my comprehension
But just let me point out by your own explanation, that they wernt taken because of the colour of their skin, like stolen black children were, which was the point of the Scrubplebs post!

No they were not.
And as I have said earlier, taking children from parents was not only confined to the Aborigines.

Yes, the authorities did remove half caste children as the thought the "Tribe" would murder them, and at the same time they were taking both black and white kids, IF, they thought those kids would be better off elsewhere.

That is what I meant by the "Stolen Generation". Not all were black.

It was a time when the Government at the time, used their power, to discriminate, beyond their power, and with no respect for other peoples feelings.

I saw that film, "The barbed wire fence" and understand where the indigenous people are coming from. However, as I said they were not the only ones.

I hope you can understand my description.

[muddydigger]

No they were not.
And as I have said earlier, taking children from parents was not only confined to the Aborigines.

Yes, the authorities did remove half caste children as the thought the "Tribe" would murder them, and at the same time they were taking both black and white kids, IF, they thought those kids would be better off elsewhere.

That is what I meant by the "Stolen Generation". Not all were black.

It was a time when the Government at the time, used their power, to discriminate, beyond their power, and with no respect for other peoples feelings.

I saw that film, "The barbed wire fence" and understand where the indigenous people are coming from. However, as I said they were not the only ones.

I hope you can understand my description.


Sorry mate my Mother in law was taken based solely on being black, no other reason. So yes they were.
Quote""The Stolen Generations (or Stolen Generation) is a term used to describe those children of Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander descent who were removed from their families by Australian government"

I don't deny many many children were taken from white and black backgrounds.
" It was a time when the Government at the time, used their power, to discriminate, beyond their power, and with no respect for other peoples feelings."
Never a truer word said, but as we ave already learned a lot of the white kids taken have already received an apology and received compensation.

[harro]

Forget the topic, but how hypocritical. What is it with you then if it is not entertainment as you are a part of the thread? Nothing gets the blood boiling more whether this thread or any other, where someone comes along, makes various comments along the way, then decides that perhaps they don't have the majority view or that it is not to their liking, that the thread should be closed:mad:. What bollocks. If you don't like the conversation..switch threads...simple.

Secondly who are you to determine as to who says what, when. Since when is it written that a Mod cannot have an opinion, it is these type of comments that are an insult to a thread that on the whole has been well discussed. As for being highly emotive, certainly for some, others like myself it isnt emotive, moreso objective and offering a view point. The predominant opposing view has been littered with anti sentiments, assumptions and aggression, highly unlikely to win any support what so ever,

Regards

Stevo

Save it Stevo, lecturing is for children.
I stand by what I said, the Mods quip was neither informed or helpful and Muddydigger's response will testify to that.
As for closing the thread, I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that.

I joined this forum because of Land Rovers, sure I have participated in this discussion but it has quickly spiralled to depths not becoming of AULRO imho.

I say this with no ill feeling or malicious intent.
I have benefitted greatly from this forum and hope to do so into the future.
Regards.
Paul.

[muddydigger]

Save it Stevo, lecturing is for children.
I stand by what I said, the Mods quip was neither informed or helpful and Muddydigger's response will testify to that.
As for closing the thread, I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that.

I joined this forum because of Land Rovers, sure I have participated in this discussion but it has quickly spiralled to depths not becoming of AULRO imho.

I say this with no ill feeling or malicious intent.
I have benefitted greatly from this forum and hope to do so into the future.
Regards.
Paul.
Deleated by muddydigger

[CraigE]

Sorry,
That is a crock. I personally know 6 men that were abused in by Christian Brothers and there is absolutely no doubt to this as they have testified in hearings and have not recieved any for of apology or compensation. Yet they have been able to move on with their lives.


Incorrect read previous posts! And your quoting only parts of article that suits your view point. Let me just point out a very important point that puts this into more perspective, instead of trying to assimilate the two.
The children were taken from children's homes!! they were NOT taken directly from families. There is a difference. That said its still inhumane and a dispicable act. to be lied to for 50 years.
Secondly you conviniently forgot another part of the article, they were apologised to and they are receiving compensation, some thing that many here believe that aboriginals should be denied

Oh here is quote from the article "In 1993, the Christian Brothers, responding to a lawsuit, officially apologized to the child migrants and paid reparations totaling $2.5 million dollars to 250 who'd been abused at their institutions"
the same thing has happened to thousands of aboriginal children removed from loving families and enslaved as well. So its OK to pay compo for the white kids but not the black ones?

[Jamo]

This thread has brought out for me the fact that there are so many different sides and viewpoints to every story.

As for Rudd's apology, if it makes the life of just one person better, then it's a good thing.

[stevo68]

Save it Stevo, lecturing is for children.
I stand by what I said, the Mods quip was neither informed or helpful and Muddydigger's response will testify to that.
As for closing the thread, I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that.

I joined this forum because of Land Rovers, sure I have participated in this discussion but it has quickly spiralled to depths not becoming of AULRO imho.

I say this with no ill feeling or malicious intent.
I have benefitted greatly from this forum and hope to do so into the future.
Regards.
Paul. Hypocritical again, I suggest you look the word up in the dictionary. If not lecturing, how would you suggest your response, that I initially quoted ie about the mod comment????? And what a load of twallop that it has......well it has now spiralled :twisted:, but only due to inane comments made by yourself. First the redneck post and that has just continued from there. Not becoming of AULRO, pfffttt, it is normal Aussies debating/discussing/ a topic. Those that have presented a different perspective, I have taken notice, as I am sure others. What you have presented has been anything but useful. How about thinking of something constructive to say. Also look up the word lecture...I wasn't lecturing, I was telling you how it is :mad:,

Regards

Stevo

[Tango51]

Firstly, you have absolutely no credibility with me. At all.
Secondly, your logic is that because of this injustice everyone has to suffer the same injustice?

[muddydigger]

Sorry,
That is a crock. I personally know 6 men that were abused in by Christian Brothers and there is absolutely no doubt to this as they have testified in hearings and have not recieved any for of apology or compensation. Yet they have been able to move on with their lives.

Go to the link and read it. It clearly says they have received apologies and some have been compensated. $2.5 million so far. And seeing as I don't have intimate knowledge on this the Christian brothers have based my reply provided in the link, which states thay have!
If the people you know haven't then that is plain wrong.

Now back to the Aboriginals, a great deal of them have moved on too, but that doesn't excuse a government from paying any compensation they may be entitled to.

Lets not also forget that any compensation payed to an individual is not reflective of the community.

[CraigE]

A NEW moderator?
Not likely Harro.:bangin:

Obviously you do not like this thread or direction and have commented to that effect, but yet you keep returning to read and comment.;)

The job of a mod is not to take middle ground, but to monitor threads that get out of hand and abusive, straying from open discussion towards spiteful comments. They have opinions and are entitled to voice them as the rest of us.

I for one would not want to see a thread locked because of your opinion only, but that is what you are asking because there are opinions different to yours. Just because you think you are right does not make you 100% correct same as just because I have an opinion and think I am right does not make me 100% correct, neither does it make either of us wrong.
:cool:

[CraigE]

Go to the link and read it. It clearly says they have received apologies and some have been compensated. $2.5 million so far. And seeing as I don't have intimate knowledge on this the Christian brothers have based my reply provided in the link, which states thay have!
If the people you know haven't then that is plain wrong.

Now back to the Aboriginals, a great deal of them have moved on too, but that doesn't excuse a government from paying any compensation they may be entitled to.

Lets not also forget that any compensation payed to an individual is not reflective of the community.
You are forgetting that it was law at the time so compensation should be a mute point. Compensation should only be available to those that were treated outside the law at the time, right or wrong.
It is not the government that will be paying compensation but the taxpayer.
If most of these people were genuine they would not be on a cash grab but would rather see the money go into a fund to give all underpriveliged a future. But no everyone these days just sees $ signs when they are wronged.

[muddydigger]

It would be a shame to lock the thread. Healthy discussion is what leads to education and fresh perspectives and thinking. Admittedly I definitely don't agree with some posts here yet I respect those that constructive as apposed to those that are vindictive, mulishas and spiteful. Plainly there are people whom disagree with me and I'm fine with that too. For too long this subject is shunned yet it should be discussed. And in light of recent events its never more poignant.

[CraigE]

Inc,
I believe it to be in the vicinity of 400,000 - 500,000 since records were officially kept in Australia. In fact it is probablly more than this. The "stolen generation" are believed to make up around 50,000, but wether all of these are genuine is highly debatable.
The sad thing is now all government departments are to scared to step in and remove children from dangerous homes, because of the perception of the public.

can anyone tell me how many children were forcibly removed from their parents during this time, white black or brindle ?

or how many babies were forcibly adopted out, white black or brindle ?

there has been a lot of rhetoric about this but, very little mentioned about the general views of society and how that impacted on the everyday lives of most living in Australia during this era, white black or brindle ?

i also take the time to remind people that playing the man, will not win you the argument and that if you take the time to write your message in a coherent manner, most will take the time to read and absorb your comment instead of fobbing you off..

[muddydigger]

You are forgetting that it was law at the time so compensation should be a mute point. Compensation should only be available to those that were treated outside the law at the time, right or wrong.
It is not the government that will be paying compensation but the taxpayer.
If most of these people were genuine they would not be on a cash grab but would rather see the money go into a fund to give all underpriveliged a future. But no everyone these days just sees $ signs when they are wronged.
So should the $2.5 million dollars already paid to some of the chritian brothers be returend to the tax payer as it was law and government policy? or is it they were compensated because they were violated, beeten etc like a good number of aboriginals that were taken?

[stevo68]

It would be a shame to lock the thread. Healthy discussion is what leads to education and fresh perspectives and thinking. Admittedly I definitely don't agree with some posts here yet I respect those that constructive as apposed to those that are vindictive, mulishas and spiteful. Plainly there are people whom disagree with me and I'm fine with that too. For too long this subject is shunned yet it should be discussed. And in light of recent events its never more poignant.Well put, I have learnt more about this situation in the last week than the last 5-10 yrs. As Jamo pointed out as well, there are so many sides and view points, which to be honest, up until recently, I didn't really have a side or a view point, probably more a view point as it really isn't a "taking sides" situation.

Regards

Stevo

[abaddonxi]

can anyone tell me how many children were forcibly removed from their parents during this time, white black or brindle ?

or how many babies were forcibly adopted out, white black or brindle ?

there has been a lot of rhetoric about this but, very little mentioned about the general views of society and how that impacted on the everyday lives of most living in Australia during this era, white black or brindle ?

i also take the time to remind people that playing the man, will not win you the argument and that if you take the time to write your message in a coherent manner, most will take the time to read and absorb your comment instead of fobbing you off..

From Tango51's link-
http://matrix.aiatsis.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/4727/DP15.pdf


It is estimated that ten per cent of Indigenous Australian children were removed from their families and communities under state sanctioned policies and removal practices in Australia between 1910 and 1970 (HREOC 1997:18). Today, most Indigenous families continue to be affected in one or more generations by the forcible removal of children during this time (HREOC 1997:37).This is also of interest-


We accept that, in line with the findings of the National Inquiry into the Separation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children from Their Families, the systemic removal of Indigenous children from their families constituted a gross violation of human rights (HREOC 1997). In summary, the Inquiry found that the policy of forced removal of Indigenous children was contrary to prohibitions on racial discrimination and genocide, and was contrary to accepted legal principle found in the common law.
The removals also led to other forms of criminal victimisation including widespread sexual and physical assault (HREOC 1997:277-278).To contrast this, you could have a look at this study of Aboriginal population figures -
Untitled (http://www.anu.edu.au/nceph/indigenous-population/assa-web-reprint/)
Which leads you to this PDF -
http://www.anu.edu.au/nceph/indigenous-population/assa-web-reprint/text.pdf

Which pretty much says that there hasn't been much in the way of recording Aboriginal population figures for most of the last century, and speculates as to why this is.

Guess it just isn't that simple.:eek:

Cheers
Simon

[abaddonxi]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the "Stolen" generation that all this has come about was approx 13000 people? Also as has been stated, there were also tens of thousands of white children removed from homes as well. My point here, is that it seem's ok that a white child was removed, not because of their skin colour but for other reasons. If that same child also suffered abuse, poor conditions etc there doesn't seem to be the same outpouring. In other words, what ever the reason the child was removed, shouldnt that be of more concern, not just because if it did happen due to the colour of their skin?

Also having read the responses on this forum, other forums, there does seem to be a majority view, and yes I do think that says something. As I stated a long time ago earlier in the thread, I think the average Aussie has no qualms about the Apology, and those that rant " racist, ignorant etc" seem to miss that. I think it is more the underlying perception that for many it is an open door to compensation. Will there be a repeat in 20-30yrs over the current NT intervention? It is interesting that those that hold the opposing view and label, perhaps people like myself as unsympathetic, racist etc, do not try themselves to see why the majority have a conflicting view.

We are the lucky country, every body has opportunity on their doorstep. Speak to a person from a war torn, third world country and compare. Speak to somebody from South Africa and about the current atrocities that happen over there. There are children in Thailand, called Miracle Children because there mothers took a pill to terminate the pregnancy at 6-7mths, and they now live in an orphanage. I personally donate $$$ oversea's to children who live in some of these ghastly conditions. They do not have the choices that children of all colour have over here.

I think proof will be in the pudding, the Apology has been done and if that helps people move on, I think that is wonderful. If a flood of lawsuits and compensation claims come out of the woodwork, well then it will show for what it really was....ie waiting for the apology to hopefully open that door. There have been examples of good outcomes and poor outcomes from any child that was removed from a home, personally if a child was abused or suffered, that should be bloody more important than skin colour,

Regards

Stevo

I've only spent a very small amount of time in remote communities, and I'm positive there are many on the forum who know more about life in remote communities than I do, but from my experience and observation, an Aboriginal person a remote community is living in third world conditions.

As quoted in my above post, some people think that those conditions are the equivalent of any of the circumstances you mention.

I've been looking for days for a file that I found by accident a few years ago. I think it is called 'The washing machine report'. It is a survey of washing machine usage and expected usable life cycle in Aboriginal housing in remote communities. Although being only about the humble washing machine it describes some of the extremities of remote community life. It describes situations like the population explosion during the NT wet season, when remote communities fill up with all of the people usually living out in the bush. During this time it is not uncommon to find forty or fifty people sharing one house, and I don't think you could describe them as mansions.

:)

Cheers
Simon

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

I have read and followed this thread for 17 pages now, and watched as debate, sometimes getting a little heated flowed, but as I see it, the "Apology" was made by the Govt. on behalf of the Govt. for the "Wrongs of Past Goverenments" and supported by the Opposition Party, in this context, it was long overdue. There is one underlying thread to the actions of past Govt's and the post war removal of children,both indigenious and non-indigenious, from poor/single mothers,camps and missions, and the covert acceptance of excesses by the Churches and private organisations, and that is the Prime Minister of the Day,1949--1966. Robert Gordon Menzies, later Knighted and honoured as Lord Warden of the Chique Ports and the idle and mentor of our last prime Minister, who would have never made an Apology as it would have shown his idle in a bad light.

To my mind I think the apology was the right thing to do, hopefully it will help many to be able to move on and hold their heads high, as, in the early and mid 20th century the social attudes and actions of both the Australian and British Governments was bordering on the gross infringment of basic human rights, and particularly post 1943 and the formation of the United Nations. the Govts. their Servants, and the Churches Heirachy are all equally culpable.

N.B. This is my personal opinion and is in no way that of any party,club, or organisation, either real or implied.


cheers

[p38arover]

I haven't heard or read Rudd's speech - nor do I ever expect to.

I couldn't care less.

[CraigE]

So should the $2.5 million dollars already paid to some of the chritian brothers be returend to the tax payer as it was law and government policy? or is it they were compensated because they were violated, beeten etc like a good number of aboriginals that were taken?
I could live with that as it is only $10,000 per person, but the stolen generation are talking significantly more than that and could run into tens of billions or more at $100,000 per person allegedlly affected if all 50,000 recieve compensation. And whatever is paid there needs to be a clause that it is used to better their lives, not just wasted.
The question now is wether people would be happy with $10k I think not.
$500k to $5million dollar individual claims have already been mooted. If it is going to be paid then it needs to be kept comparable to what some of the victims of Christian Brothers abuse recieved ($10,000 average) (which is probablly more deserved as it involved significant physical and sexual abuse) (anyone else deserves similar for similar abuse).
As I first said this is all about $ not the apology. The apology will be used as a catalyst for compensation regardless wether it was said under parliamentary privelage or not.
The claims being heard have the potential to cripple our economy and infrastructure, so I do ask all that support exorbitant payouts that the consider that maybe next time they call for an ambulance or medical assistance and can not get it because of money diverted in compo that they remember their stance.
Cheers
CraigE:)

[muddydigger]

I could live with that as it is only $10,000 per person,

MUDDYDIGGER ,So monetary value has more precedence over human suffering? The government was responsible and so should pay for its mistakes.

but the stolen generation are talking significantly more than that and could run into tens of billions or more at $100,000 per person allegedlly affected if all 50,000 recieve compensation. And whatever is paid there needs to be a clause that it is used to better their lives, not just wasted.

MUDDYDIGGER ,Was the money awarded to other victims such as the Christian brothers awarded with a clause that says you can only use it better your lives? I think not, nore should it be, you cant dictate how the money is spent, its belongs to that individual because of the pain and suffering that they have suffered. You didnt suffer it nor did the governement and so have absalutly no say how any victim of crime spends compensation money.

The question now is wether people would be happy with $10k I think not.
$500k to $5million dollar individual claims have already been mooted. If it is going to be paid then it needs to be kept comparable to what some of the victims of Christian Brothers abuse recieved ($10,000 average) (which is probablly more deserved as it involved significant physical and sexual abuse)

MUDDYDIGGER, All compensation claims and any payout should be on a case by case bases, not a one glove fits all. Some cases are worse than others.
To give you an idea, some states are already paying out compensation to stolen generations. I think the maximum amount that can be awareded is $75000,00. That is for the worse case senario. Not an exorbatent amount I dont think for some who has suffered in such a way be they black white or brindle.
many of the stolen generation were subject to sexual abuse and or physical violence, how can you say one is more deserving than the other? They are both deserving of it.

(anyone else deserves similar for similar abuse).
As I first said this is all about $ not the apology. The apology will be used as a catalyst for compensation regardless wether it was said under parliamentary privelage or not.
The claims being heard have the potential to cripple our economy and infrastructure, so I do ask all that support exorbitant payouts that the consider that maybe next time they call for an ambulance or medical assistance and can not get it because of money diverted in compo that they remember their stance.

MUDDYDIGGER, they have asked for 1 Billion dollars and know full well they probably wont get it. Its typical lawyers talk, go for the biggest sum and work down. But 1 billion dollars awarded over 100,000 victims work it out. Thats right 100,000 victims over 90 years, not 50,000. Remember for each child taken potentially ther are three victims, the child the mother and the father!
The Australian Government has paid $458.8 Million in aid to Indonesia! after the Tsunami! Whilst I agree that humanitarian aid was required and I dont begrudge one cent of it, our Indiginous comunity is living in condtions worse than a third world country. I ask you who is more deserving of our tax payers money, Indonesians whom live in another country,and have never payed taxes to our government nor are likely too, and have nothing to do with Australian government, or have any cultral or Heritage signifcance to this country, or People who have sufered abuse, physical violence, sexual abuse, stolen from their famialies all at the hands of the Austrlian Government?? Remember these are Australian born, Australian raised individuals.

Cheers
CraigE:)

Once any compensation is awarded you cannot dictate how its is spent. It belongs to the victim as compensation for their pain and suffering.

[Graz]

As long as we leave?:eek:

:eek:Me leave............Why???

signed - White, Indigenous and proud of it!!!

[Panda]

Roughly reading through this mammoth post, it came to my attention that no-one (unless I missed a post?) seems to realise that Aborigines are already being compensated.

Of course, there are the well known Mambo Land Title compensation cases, however, more recently there have been a number of compensation cases where Aborigines have been awarded compensation for being "taken", as well as abuse cases etc. (One such case actually arose in Canada, from an Aboriginal child being sexually & physically abused (beaten etc).

For anyone's interest, below is an exerpt from a case recently heard in Adelaide.

Judgments are extremely long, so for that reason alone, I have not put the whole case in this post. However, if anyone is interested enough to wish to view the case in its entirety, feel free to PM me.

It certainly makes for interesting reading.



TREVORROW v STATE OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA (No 5)

[2007] SASC 285 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/sa/SASC/2007/285.html)

Judgment of The Honourable Justice Gray

1 August 2007

TORTS - MALICIOUS PROCEDURE AND FALSE IMPRISONMENT
TORTS - NEGLIGENCE - ESSENTIALS OF ACTION FOR NEGLIGENCE
EQUITY - GENERAL PRINCIPLES - FIDUCIARY OBLIGATIONS
CONSTITUTIONAL LAW - THE NON-JUDICIAL ORGANS OF GOVERNMENT - THE CROWN - LIABILITIES OF THE CROWN - IN TORT - FOR ACTS OF SERVANTS OR AGENTS - LIABILITY OF SERVANT OR AGENT - FOR MISFEASANCE IN PUBLIC OFFICE
DAMAGES - MEASURE AND REMOTENESS OF DAMAGES IN ACTIONS FOR TORT - REMOTENESS AND CAUSATION
LIMITATION OF ACTIONS - CONTRACTS, TORTS AND PERSONAL ACTIONS - THE PERIOD OF LIMITATION - ACTIONS FOUNDED ON SIMPLE CONTRACT AND TORT (INCLUDING BREACH OF STATUTORY DUTY)
The plaintiff brought an action against the State of South Australia claiming misfeasance of public office, false imprisonment, breach of duty of care and breach of fiduciary and statutory duties. In 1949 and 1954 the State received legal advice that it did not have the authority to remove Aboriginal children absent certain procedures being followed - In 1957 the plaintiff aged 13 months was taken to hospital – In January 1958 the plaintiff was removed from hospital and placed into the care of a foster family by a statutory board and government department – In 1967 the plaintiff was returned to live with his natural mother – Consideration of whether the removal and fostering of the plaintiff by the board and department was without statutory warrant or legal authority and ultra vires - whether the board and department involved in the plaintiff’s removal, fostering and return were emanations and agents of the State – whether the State is liable for the actions of the departmental officers – whether there was misfeasance in public office – whether the plaintiff was falsely imprisoned – whether the State owed the plaintiff a duty of care and if so whether it was breached – whether the State owed the plaintiff fiduciary duties - consideration of remoteness and foreseeability – consideration of declarations, damages, equitable compensation and exemplary damages.
Held: The removal and placement of the plaintiff was without statutory warrant or legal authority and ultra vires – the statutory board and government department involved in the plaintiff’s removal, placement and return to his natural family were emanations and agents of the State – the State is liable for the actions of the board and departmental officers - the State owed a duty of care to the plaintiff at the time of his removal, fostering and subsequent return to his natural family – the State breached its duty of care to the plaintiff – the plaintiff was falsely imprisoned – the plaintiff was subject to misfeasance in public office – the State had a fiduciary duty to inform the plaintiff of the circumstances of his removal and to ensure he received independent legal advice - declarations made and damages including exemplary damages awarded.
The plaintiff made application for an extension of time pursuant to the Limitation of Actions Act – consideration of principles in extending time – consideration of the defence of laches – Held: Extension granted – State’s defence of laches rejected.

…

The Statutory Scheme
32
The statutory scheme in place at the time of the plaintiff’s removal from his natural family entrusted two bodies with roles to play in ensuring that Aboriginal children in need were properly cared for – the APB and the CWPRB.
33
Pursuant to section 7 of Aborigines Act 1934-1939,the APB had the following duties:

(a) to apportion, distribute, and apply, as seems most fit, the moneys at the disposal of the board:
(b) in its discretion, to apply part of the moneys at its disposal in the purchase of stock and implements to be loaned to aborigines to whom land has been allotted under section 18, and may supply the same accordingly either without payment or on such terms as are approved by the board, and no person shall, except with the approval of the board, acquire any title to any goods or chattels so loaned as aforesaid:
(c) to distribute blankets, clothing, provisions, and other relief or assistance to the aborigines.
(d) to provide, as far as practicable, for the supply of food, medical attendance, medicines, and shelter for the sick, aged, and infirm aborigines.
(e) to provide, when possible, for the custody, maintenance and education of the children of aborigines.
(f) to manage and regulate the use of all reserves for aborigines.
(g) to exercise a general supervision and care over all matters affecting the welfare of the aborigines, and to protect them against injustice, imposition, and fraud.
34
The APB was the legal guardian of Aboriginal children. Section 10 provided:

(1) The board shall be the legal guardian of every aboriginal child, notwithstanding that any such child has a parent or other relative living, until such child attains the age of twenty-one years, except whilst such child is a State child within the meaning of the Maintenance Act, 1926.
and further provided:
(2) Every protector shall, within his district, be the local guardian of every such child within his district.
(3) Such local guardian shall have and exercise the powers and duties prescribed.
35
Section 17(1) of the Aborigines Act 1934-1939 provided that the APB could place an Aboriginal person within a reserve or Aboriginal institution:

The board may cause any aborigine to be kept within the boundaries of any reserve or aboriginal institution, or to be removed to and kept within the boundaries of any reserve or aboriginal institution, or to be removed from one reserve or aboriginal institution to another reserve or aboriginal institution, and to be kept therein.
It should be immediately observed that this subsection had no part to play in the removal or placement of the plaintiff.
36
Under the legislative scheme in place, the CWPRB, pursuant to the Maintenance Act 1926-1937,bore the statutory responsibility for caring for children in need, whether Aboriginal or otherwise.
37
The legislative scheme envisaged that the two boards would work together. Importantly, section 38 of the Aborigines Act 1934-1939 provided that the APB and the CWPRB were authorised to work in concert to effect the removal of an Aboriginal child according to law:

[Panda]

Roughly reading through this mammoth post, it came to my attention that no-one (unless I missed a post?) seems to realise that Aborigines are already being compensated.

Of course, there are the well known Mambo Land Title compensation cases, however, more recently there have been a number of compensation cases where Aborigines have been awarded compensation for being "taken", as well as abuse cases etc. (One such case actually arose in Canada, from an Aboriginal child being sexually & physically abused (beaten etc).

For anyone's interest, below is an exerpt from a case recently heard in Adelaide.

Judgments are extremely long, so for that reason alone, I have not put the whole case in this post. However, if anyone is interested enough to wish to view the case in its entirety, feel free to PM me.

It certainly makes for interesting reading.



TREVORROW v STATE OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA (No 5)



[2007] SASC 285 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/sa/SASC/2007/285.html)



Judgment of The Honourable Justice Gray



1 August 2007


TORTS - MALICIOUS PROCEDURE AND FALSE IMPRISONMENT
TORTS - NEGLIGENCE - ESSENTIALS OF ACTION FOR NEGLIGENCE
EQUITY - GENERAL PRINCIPLES - FIDUCIARY OBLIGATIONS
CONSTITUTIONAL LAW - THE NON-JUDICIAL ORGANS OF GOVERNMENT - THE CROWN - LIABILITIES OF THE CROWN - IN TORT - FOR ACTS OF SERVANTS OR AGENTS - LIABILITY OF SERVANT OR AGENT - FOR MISFEASANCE IN PUBLIC OFFICE
DAMAGES - MEASURE AND REMOTENESS OF DAMAGES IN ACTIONS FOR TORT - REMOTENESS AND CAUSATION
LIMITATION OF ACTIONS - CONTRACTS, TORTS AND PERSONAL ACTIONS - THE PERIOD OF LIMITATION - ACTIONS FOUNDED ON SIMPLE CONTRACT AND TORT (INCLUDING BREACH OF STATUTORY DUTY)
The plaintiff brought an action against the State of South Australia claiming misfeasance of public office, false imprisonment, breach of duty of care and breach of fiduciary and statutory duties. In 1949 and 1954 the State received legal advice that it did not have the authority to remove Aboriginal children absent certain procedures being followed - In 1957 the plaintiff aged 13 months was taken to hospital – In January 1958 the plaintiff was removed from hospital and placed into the care of a foster family by a statutory board and government department – In 1967 the plaintiff was returned to live with his natural mother – Consideration of whether the removal and fostering of the plaintiff by the board and department was without statutory warrant or legal authority and ultra vires - whether the board and department involved in the plaintiff’s removal, fostering and return were emanations and agents of the State – whether the State is liable for the actions of the departmental officers – whether there was misfeasance in public office – whether the plaintiff was falsely imprisoned – whether the State owed the plaintiff a duty of care and if so whether it was breached – whether the State owed the plaintiff fiduciary duties - consideration of remoteness and foreseeability – consideration of declarations, damages, equitable compensation and exemplary damages.
Held: The removal and placement of the plaintiff was without statutory warrant or legal authority and ultra vires – the statutory board and government department involved in the plaintiff’s removal, placement and return to his natural family were emanations and agents of the State – the State is liable for the actions of the board and departmental officers - the State owed a duty of care to the plaintiff at the time of his removal, fostering and subsequent return to his natural family – the State breached its duty of care to the plaintiff – the plaintiff was falsely imprisoned – the plaintiff was subject to misfeasance in public office – the State had a fiduciary duty to inform the plaintiff of the circumstances of his removal and to ensure he received independent legal advice - declarations made and damages including exemplary damages awarded.
The plaintiff made application for an extension of time pursuant to the Limitation of Actions Act – consideration of principles in extending time – consideration of the defence of laches – Held: Extension granted – State’s defence of laches rejected.

…

The Statutory Scheme
32
The statutory scheme in place at the time of the plaintiff’s removal from his natural family entrusted two bodies with roles to play in ensuring that Aboriginal children in need were properly cared for – the APB and the CWPRB.
33
Pursuant to section 7 of Aborigines Act 1934-1939,the APB had the following duties:

(a) to apportion, distribute, and apply, as seems most fit, the moneys at the disposal of the board:
(b) in its discretion, to apply part of the moneys at its disposal in the purchase of stock and implements to be loaned to aborigines to whom land has been allotted under section 18, and may supply the same accordingly either without payment or on such terms as are approved by the board, and no person shall, except with the approval of the board, acquire any title to any goods or chattels so loaned as aforesaid:
(c) to distribute blankets, clothing, provisions, and other relief or assistance to the aborigines.
(d) to provide, as far as practicable, for the supply of food, medical attendance, medicines, and shelter for the sick, aged, and infirm aborigines.
(e) to provide, when possible, for the custody, maintenance and education of the children of aborigines.
(f) to manage and regulate the use of all reserves for aborigines.
(g) to exercise a general supervision and care over all matters affecting the welfare of the aborigines, and to protect them against injustice, imposition, and fraud.
34
The APB was the legal guardian of Aboriginal children. Section 10 provided:

(1) The board shall be the legal guardian of every aboriginal child, notwithstanding that any such child has a parent or other relative living, until such child attains the age of twenty-one years, except whilst such child is a State child within the meaning of the Maintenance Act, 1926.
and further provided:
(2) Every protector shall, within his district, be the local guardian of every such child within his district.
(3) Such local guardian shall have and exercise the powers and duties prescribed.
35
Section 17(1) of the Aborigines Act 1934-1939 provided that the APB could place an Aboriginal person within a reserve or Aboriginal institution:

The board may cause any aborigine to be kept within the boundaries of any reserve or aboriginal institution, or to be removed to and kept within the boundaries of any reserve or aboriginal institution, or to be removed from one reserve or aboriginal institution to another reserve or aboriginal institution, and to be kept therein.
It should be immediately observed that this subsection had no part to play in the removal or placement of the plaintiff.
36
Under the legislative scheme in place, the CWPRB, pursuant to the Maintenance Act 1926-1937,bore the statutory responsibility for caring for children in need, whether Aboriginal or otherwise.
37
The legislative scheme envisaged that the two boards would work together. Importantly, section 38 of the Aborigines Act 1934-1939 provided that the APB and the CWPRB were authorised to work in concert to effect the removal of an Aboriginal child according to law:

[barney]

Of course, there are the well known Mambo Land Title compensation cases:


was that the well known "Mambo Land Title" compensation case led by Reg Mombassa or the Mabo case by Eddie Mabo?

pity, you put so much effort into it but blew it in the second paragraph

[Panda]

Well I knew what I meant! Comes with being blonde!:D Probably thinking about having a little dance ...


was that the well known "Mambo Land Title" compensation case led by Reg Mombassa or the Mabo case by Eddie Mabo?

pity, you put so much effort into it but blew it in the second paragraph

[harro]

As all who have viewed this thread would be aware ill feeing has been displayed against me and unfortunately by me.
The cause of this ill feeling has been a difference of opinion and the accusation of hypocrisy has arisen.

I made the mistake of posting a joke diploma for rednecks and this action was claimed to be ridiculous, probably right at the time.

However on the assumption that my post went against fair and logical discussion I beg to differ.
Several of the posts offered nothing but racial hatred or at best serious misinformation.
To propose a position one must be able to substantiate it
This was rarely done.
A few offered links to docs. but generally assumptions and insinuation were the more popular posting forms.
I posted this link because I believe it give a very good insight to what, when and most importantly why the 'Stolen Generations' occured.
Stolen Generation Robert Manne essay (http://www.tim-richardson.net/misc/stolen_generation.html)

This is an excellent essay not overly lengthy and adequate in detail.

This post;


this is what the apology should have been

AUSTRALIAN APOLOGY TO THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION

We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care, which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.

We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation, thought and enterprise.

We feel that we must apologise for building hundreds of homes for you, which you have vandalised and destroyed.

We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.

We apologise for developing large farms and properties, which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and starving during droughts.

We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric to replace that animal skins you used before.

We apologise for building roads and railway tracks between cities and building cars so that you no longer have to walk over harsh terrain.

We apologise for paying off your vehicle when you fail to pay the instalments

We apologise for giving you free travel anywhere, whenever.

We apologise for giving each and every member of your family $100.00 and free travel to attend an aboriginal funeral.

We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have to pay.

We apologise for giving you interest free loans.

We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value.

We apologise for developing Ayers rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to you so that you get all the money.

We apologise for allowing taxpayers money paid towards daughters' wedding ($8,000.00 each daughter)

We apologise for giving you $1.7 billion per year for your 250,000 people, which is $48,000.00 per aboriginal man, woman and child.

We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare, medical care, education, etc to the tune of $1.2 billion each year.

We apologise for you having to approach the aboriginal affairs department to verify the above figures. For the trouble you will have identifying the "uncle toms" in your own community who are getting richer and leaving some of you living in squalor and poverty.

We do apologise. We really do.

We humbly beg your forgiveness for all the above sins.

We are only too happy to take back all the above and return you to the paradise of the "outback", whenever you are ready.

Was lifted straight off a circulating email.
While the point of the post maybe how the subject is seen but the Email is in fact race hate mail these type of emails are often seen circulating prior to elections, muslim ones are equally common.

Anther one;


I voted for John Howard, since I've been old enough, my family since 1996.

I could not be prouder of him today, for sticking to his guns and not being a part of todays "theatrics".

This is what made him a great leader of our nation, he gave the finger to political correctness and did what he believed to be right for Australia.

KRudd, the elected "leader" of today, gives the finger to our nations needs, and follows the cheap votes.

Well done voters, well doneA traditional voter who has come to the conclusion that the pro 'Sorry' voters are in fact cheap
Curious logic but more importantly negative and to a large extent pointless.

Moving on;


Will the relatives of "The Man" apologise to me for the stolen camera and other items from my car.

I got the camera back when I "made a citizens arrest" of one of the perpetrators but not anything else or the damage to the locks on my Rangie. Although the one who was arrested wanted an apology from me, actually she wanted me arrested for restraining her. Yes she was a first cousin of "The Man".

Will they also apologise to me for the several episodes of fare evasion when I was driving a taxi?This one has nothing to do with the thread subject except for the word 'sorry'.
So I will attempt to apply the post to the thread.
Aboriginals are criminals that don't deserve an apology?
Or i could expand this logic further to,
The stolen Generations are criminals and don't deserve an apology

Either conclusion of course is ridiculous, so what then of the purpose of the post.

And my favorite;


all the soft skins are going to hate me...

all the rednecks will love it...

yall forgot my favorite ones....

we're sorry that as englishmen we conquested your country, it would have been so much better to allow the dutch to do it, just like tasmania.

We're sorry we didnt follow the dutch's example in tasmania.



Did you know that as of 1997 there were still 3 valid aboriginal hunting liscences issued in tasmania that were valid?
The lampooning of Genocide.
Yes the humorous side to the extermination of the Tasmanian Aborigine.
And the preference for this to have taken place on the mainland as well!
And not a peep from anyone!
I could go on but I am sure you have heard enough.



Many of the posts were balanced and proffered in fairness and goodwill but there were quite a few that were not.
I do not believe mine was the first unreasonable post.

My other half is an english, history and geography teacher.
Yesterday she picked up that I was not comfortable with something and after much prodding she viewed the entire thread.
I am currently in the bad books for even participating in this discussion.
Her initial reaction was shock that some of the opinions were freely available on the www, the post regarding the genocide of Tasmanian Aboriginals actually made her cry (she is a sensitive thing, one of the reasons I love her)

In summary I request the Administrator(s) to remove all contributions made by me and also any personal details as I no longer wish to be associated with this forum.

To quote a hero of mine.
Goodnight and good luck.

[Sprint]

harro, its just a shame i'm not a doctor..... because i'd prescribe you a healthy dose of cement powder

seriously man, everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, if you dont like it, pay no attention to it

btw, i said sorry to my dog...... after all, he IS black!

[wayne]

harro, its just a shame i'm not a doctor..... because i'd prescribe you a healthy dose of cement powder

seriously man, everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, if you dont like it, pay no attention to it

btw, i said sorry to my dog...... after all, he IS black!

:confused: :confused: Absolutely disgusting

[incisor]

i have locked this as i dont like the way it is descending into personalities.