Speeding fines... WA

[5teve]

Hi guys

Firstly i dont want this to be a political bashing or anything like that... i just want straight answers regarding the question!

I recieved a speeding fine yesterday. $75 0 demerit points so i got off lightly, except that im sure i remember that camera on that day as we were on our way to rockingham in a very relaxed manner, i remember seeing the camera and looking at the speedo to make sure i was in the limit give or take a few k's.

the ticket says i was doing 108kmh which with about a 5km overread that seems normal for the landrovers means that the landy would of been showing around 113kmh which i know i NEVER do. (i have never checked this with a gps)

having talked to a guy here he asked if there was any other cars on the photo, and there is.. he has said that they need to prove that it was you doing the speed and not the other.. and this seems to make sense as i also remember that car doing some speed and thinking... they must of cut that quite finely!

anyone have any experience in this? i accept that it could of been me speeding albeit very unusual and the fact i got no demerits helps me i guess.. but i dont want to pay for someone elses error!

Thanks in advance for your valued advice

Steve

[isuzurover]

Hi guys

Firstly i dont want this to be a political bashing or anything like that... i just want straight answers regarding the question!

I recieved a speeding fine yesterday. $75 0 demerit points so i got off lightly, except that im sure i remember that camera on that day as we were on our way to rockingham in a very relaxed manner, i remember seeing the camera and looking at the speedo to make sure i was in the limit give or take a few k's.

the ticket says i was doing 108kmh which with about a 5km overread that seems normal for the landrovers means that the landy would of been showing around 113kmh which i know i NEVER do. (i have never checked this with a gps)

having talked to a guy here he asked if there was any other cars on the photo, and there is.. he has said that they need to prove that it was you doing the speed and not the other.. and this seems to make sense as i also remember that car doing some speed and thinking... they must of cut that quite finely!

anyone have any experience in this? i accept that it could of been me speeding albeit very unusual and the fact i got no demerits helps me i guess.. but i dont want to pay for someone elses error!

Thanks in advance for your valued advice

Steve

Is the other car in the photo travellinmg in the same direction or the opposite???

Not 100% sure in WA (only lived here a year), but in QLD, the photo has an F for forward or an A for away (from the camera). AFAIK they cannot issue an infringement notice if there is more than one vehicle travelling in THE SAME DIRECTION AS YOU in the photo. (unless it is blatantly obvious which car was speeding - but I would think the officer manning the camera would have to testify to that effect).

[5teve]

its on a 3 lane freeway (or maybe 2 at that point) and the car is in the inside lane with me on the outside and we are both in the same direction...

i guess i need to clarify with the WA guys / law. the car is just a little behind me, but still in the camera field of view.

Thanks

Steve

[isuzurover]

its on a 3 lane freeway (or maybe 2 at that point) and the car is in the inside lane with me on the outside and we are both in the same direction...

i guess i need to clarify with the WA guys / law. the car is just a little behind me, but still in the camera field of view.

Thanks

Steve

I am inclined to think that it would be the same in all states of australia. AFAIN only FIXED speed cameras can tell which car is speeding if more than one are going in the same direction.

I would call the police and query it.

[amtravic1]

Quite a few years ago I was sent a fine in the mail. I was on my way to work and there is a known popular spot for speed cameras near the corner of Oban Road and Warrandyte? Road in Ringwood (Vic). Anyway I am in the centre lane heading down the hill below the speed limit. The speed camera is on the opposite side of the road facing up the hill. Someone heading up the hill on the outside lane is speeding and the camera flashes and I think to myself that I am glad those cameras are supposed to be able to work out which lane the vehicle is in that is speeding. Wrong, I got the fine and no amount of argueing with the traffic camera people would convince them otherwise, so after loosing half a days work to go into the city to argue my point I still had to pay the fine. Its just another tax imposed by lazy governments. Real Police on the roads would be far more of a deterent and they then have the ability to check for other unlawful things at the same time such as drinking, drugs and unroadworthy vehicles.


Ian

[Graz]

Totally agree Ian, speed camera's are for reveniew raising and do little to correct driver behavour.
The visual deterrent of a copper around works every time.
However if the camera's were only instrumental in removing demerit points then this argument would not be valid.


Quite a few years ago I was sent a fine in the mail. I was on my way to work and there is a known popular spot for speed cameras near the corner of Oban Road and Warrandyte? Road in Ringwood (Vic). Anyway I am in the centre lane heading down the hill below the speed limit. The speed camera is on the opposite side of the road facing up the hill. Someone heading up the hill on the outside lane is speeding and the camera flashes and I think to myself that I am glad those cameras are supposed to be able to work out which lane the vehicle is in that is speeding. Wrong, I got the fine and no amount of argueing with the traffic camera people would convince them otherwise, so after loosing half a days work to go into the city to argue my point I still had to pay the fine. Its just another tax imposed by lazy governments. Real Police on the roads would be far more of a deterent and they then have the ability to check for other unlawful things at the same time such as drinking, drugs and unroadworthy vehicles.





Ian

[C H T]

Steve

Contact Scott Cooper of Speeding Fine Consultants asap - I know him - ph 0419 536 975

He has has helped a lot of people in your predicament. BEAT Speeding Fines Tickets Avoid DEMERIT POINTS Australia Case Handling Scott Cooper ACT NSW NT QLD SA TAS VIC WA (http://www.speedingfineconsultants.com)

Christopher

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Have to agree about the arbitrary nature of these cameras and their revenue raising priority.

The other week I was doing my usual trip down the coast. On this occasion with trailer in tow mostly travelling about 15 to 10 KPH below the speed limit with everything passing me.

At Gwynneville on the Princess Highway at the bottom of the Mt Ousley Rd there is a camera on the northbound side of the road focussed on the southbound traffic. At the point where the camera shoots drivers can see about 100m ahead a 90 KPH speed sign (which increases the speed limit from 80 KPH at the camera). There is also a camera southbound side shooting northbound traffic about 1 Km north.

Anyway I passed the north camera doing no more than 75 KPH and continued south, nearing the next camera I decided to move to the LH lane so looked over my shoulder and changed lanes, after the manouver i glanced at the speedo to realise that it was indicating about 85-87 KPH right at the camera my foot went hard on the brakes and I don't know if I was booked, however I will have to take it as it comes.

What really annoyes me, is that if the Police had been following me in an un-marked highway patrol car all the way from Sydney to Nowra I doubt whether they would have pulled me over for speeding at any other point on the journey and probably not at the camera either. Cameras have no discression and thats what annoyes me about them.

BTW: In Victoria and also NSW if you have lost no demerit points for a period of 5 or 10 years respectively you are entitled to ask for discretion from a camera offense. State your case in a letter and they may withdraw the charge. It all depends upon the actual offense and how the officer reviewing the case feels on the day.

Diana

[Fusion]

:p Steve got a speeding fine :p:D:D:D:D Na Na Na Na Na :coplight::burnrubber:
............. sorry mate just had to :angel::angel::wasntme::D

[p38arover]

BTW: In Victoria and also NSW if you have lost no demerit points for a period of 5 or 10 years respectively you are entitled to ask for discretion from a camera offense. State your case in a letter and they may withdraw the charge. It all depends upon the actual offense and how the officer reviewing the case feels on the day

I wish I'd known that 5 years ago when I got pinged by a camera at 67 in a 60 zone (travelling with the traffic after a 9pm-5am shift). The first time and only I've ever had a fine in 43 years of driving,

[Hucksta]

Alright guys,

I m a copper, not a traffic copper, I'm general duties in the CBD of Melbourne. I don't do a lot of traffic stuff although I have been known to dish out a fine or 2 to hoons and idiots who endanger other road users.

I reckon i can give you a bit of low down on this stuff......

It is true that you can apply in writing to the camera office for a warning if you receive a ticket. It depends on a few things: ie - under 10k's over the speed limit, no previous fines in last 2 years... if it is a red light camera it depends on how long the light was red before you went through it. All it takes is a quick letter outling the incident and it is a requirement that you admit the offence in this letter.

As for the photo issue, I'm not 100% certain about it but I think that if another vehicle is in the photo and is near where the camera beam is then you may have a issue to raise with the camera office. The camera beam is somewhere in the first third of the photo from the right hand side of it (I think) and if there is another car near there then it probably may be argued that it might not be you. Remember though it is difficult to fight the government as they receive an enormous amount of revenue from those damn cameras. It's worth checking the image anyway.....

I don't really agree with them either, especially when used in a high traffic area where no fatal or serious accients are recorded (that's revenue raising) anyway..... I received a camera fine a few months ago, first fine in about 16 years......wrote a letter (did not mention I was a copper) and I got a warning. I can E-mail you the letter that i wrote if that helps....

Good luck pal...

P.S. Check the web for more info about camera policy and photo stuff....

[cartm58]

you can write to police and ask fine be not imposed based on your driving record sometimes they oblige sometimes they dont

if you got doubt about accuracy or photo set up include that in your letter

otherwise pay it 0 demerits and $75 cheaper anything your likely to get in court

[5teve]

Thanks guys

i didnt want the political slant on this, but i appreciate the info and opinions and understand its a hotly debated subject. personally i dont disagree with them but i also dont agree with them. the ONLY camera that works is the fixed average speed cameras as they control your speed over a distance... anyway.....

i spoke to the police, not giving any info, just wanting to get a policy from them, and as indicated by hucksta there are lines about 25% in from either side on the photo, so the middle half (with the 1/4 either side) is what they class as the zone. the guy i spoke to was very helpful and says he will look at it if i call back. looking at the photo the car is about 3m from my rear on the inner lane but also is inside the right 1/4 of the photo. in theory thats out of the zone, but 3m is hardly any distance.

Rach has also said today and reminded me that when we went through the speed camera i jokingly said about the car on the inside, well if it got me it definitly got him.

I'll give the police another call tomorrow and plead a 15 year record and insanity :p i'll also see if they are going to be reasonable!

Thanks again for your info and views

Steve

by the way i have no problem with a 0 demerit and $75 fine, im just not convinced i was speeding!

[HangOver]

Speed cameras IMO :
The only law where you are guilty until you prove you are innocent. :mad:

[Tank]

I got booked by a cop car mounted radar coming into Braidwood heading East, could see the cop from 2 klms away, straight stretch of road, no other traffic. Instant I seen him checked my speedo, was doing 60mph (96klm/h) in a 100klm/h zone, continued driving at that speed, as cop passed he put on his lights and did a U turn over double unbroken lines and pulled me over. Cop said I was doing 128klm/h and booked me. Fronted up in court to explain my side of the story and plead not guilty, the Beak said I would have to summons the copper to court, pay his expenses, pay for an expert to examine the camera and attend court. I hit the friggin roof and carried on that if I had committed the offence I would have paid the friggin fine and that I refuse to pay for something I didn't do. The Beak said calm down and called the police prosecutor up and had a whisper in his "shell like" and then the Beak said "will you plead guilty to 104KLM/H, I went off again and the prosecutor nudged me and whispered in my "shell like" "he's trying to help you, plead guilty". So I did, under protest, No fine, No demirit points, $51 Court costs.
I was in the right, but the moral of the story is unless you have big bucks or you find a Beak like I did, Pay the Fine, Regards Frank.

[rovercare]

, Pay the Fine, Regards Frank.

Once they've been through the perin or mag courts, everyone puts their additional charges on etc, they end up with the Sheriff as a warrant to arrest, for a sensibly aged person, one fine wont affect diddly, for some with a collection:angel:.......

[Bushwanderer]

I got booked by a cop car mounted radar coming into Braidwood heading East, could see the cop from 2 klms away, straight stretch of road, no other traffic. Instant I seen him checked my speedo, was doing 60mph (96klm/h) in a 100klm/h zone, continued driving at that speed, as cop passed he put on his lights and did a U turn over double unbroken lines and pulled me over. Cop said I was doing 128klm/h and booked me. Fronted up in court to explain my side of the story and plead not guilty, the Beak said I would have to summons the copper to court, pay his expenses, pay for an expert to examine the camera and attend court. I hit the friggin roof and carried on that if I had committed the offence I would have paid the friggin fine and that I refuse to pay for something I didn't do. The Beak said calm down and called the police prosecutor up and had a whisper in his "shell like" and then the Beak said "will you plead guilty to 104KLM/H, I went off again and the prosecutor nudged me and whispered in my "shell like" "he's trying to help you, plead guilty". So I did, under protest, No fine, No demirit points, $51 Court costs.
I was in the right, but the moral of the story is unless you have big bucks or you find a Beak like I did, Pay the Fine, Regards Frank.

Hi Tank,
FYI 60mph is 96.5 km/h (still not not 100km/h, but close). Your argument is based on your speedo being accurate. Is this true?

eg: The tyres on my LR are larger than normal, meaning that the speedo is reading 5% LOW. If your tyres are similarly oversize, you actual speed may have been 101.4km/h (still to fine to call, but you get the picture).

Make sure that you calibrate your speedo.

Best Wishes,

[Tank]

Hi Tank,
FYI 60mph is 96.5 km/h (still not not 100km/h, but close). Your argument is based on your speedo being accurate. Is this true?

eg: The tyres on my LR are larger than normal, meaning that the speedo is reading 5% LOW. If your tyres are similarly oversize, you actual speed may have been 101.4km/h (still to fine to call, but you get the picture).

Make sure that you calibrate your speedo.

Best Wishes,
Peter, thanks for the speedo correction, I was driving a $70,000 car (when new, 2wd sedan) and the tyres were standard and I have been driving long enough to know whether I'm driving at 28Klm/h over the speed limit. I drove this route Moruya to Canberra twice a week for months and had passed many speed cameras, fixed and mobile at an indicated 96.5kph and never got pinged for speeding. Plus the fact that I asked the cop if my speed had changed from his recorded 128klm/h from the time he seen me coming and when he passed me, he said it hadn't, you cant tell me that if you seen a cop car and noticed you were driving over the limit by 28klm/h that you wouldn't slow down to the limit in the hope that he didn't get you first up, you certainly wouldn't maintain your illegal speed, would you? It was a straight out Rip-Off and I wasn't going to cop it, if I'm speeding and I get caught, fair enough, pay the fine and lose your points, but no way will I cop that crap. Regards Frank.
P.S. someone else in this post mentioned fines turning into warrants, from Vic. I think, in NSW they Cancel your license and rego if you dont pay your fines, not like the good ol' days when you let the fines pile up, then turn yourself in and do some time at a $100 a day and only on the highest fine so a couple of thou's worth of fines could be worked off in 3 days if the biggest was $300, good rort.

[p38arover]

Once they've been through the perin or mag courts, ...

:question::question::question::question:

[Frenchie]

did a U turn over double unbroken lines

Perfectly legal. ;)

[Tank]

Perfectly legal. ;)
Certainly, no blinkers either, reminds me of a line from the movie Billy Jack
"when the Police break the law, there is no Law", no disrespect intended or implied to the hard working honest cops out there or here, Regards Frank.

[rovercare]

P.S. someone else in this post mentioned fines turning into warrants, from Vic. I think, in NSW they Cancel your license and rego if you dont pay your fines, not like the good ol' days when you let the fines pile up, then turn yourself in and do some time at a $100 a day and only on the highest fine so a couple of thou's worth of fines could be worked off in 3 days if the biggest was $300, good rort.

Ahhh, hence why I have a reasonable bill, its was cheaper to go in the clink than the wage I was earning as an apprentice:eek:

The joys of a mispent youth, wouldn't say I'm A1 now, but pretty bloody good:angel:...............in comparison atleast:D

[rovercare]

:question::question::question::question:

Perin courts are those that deal with speeding fines etc. Magistrate courts are for when you've been summonsed (a bad boy) and have to appear infront of the Mag., the legal system IS crazy, I've spent some time doing "interesting things" and gained a fair knowledge of how it works, the courts don't talk to each other, the sheriff doesn't talk to the courts correctly, all good once you know the loop holes, the only people in the system whom I see as "fair and Just" is the Magistrates, Imagine turning up to court, shaven, slacks and tie, surrounded by scumbags with no teeth, body odour and trackies, you can see why they're reasonable to someone who's clean, earns a wage and generally is a decent part of society.....aside from a few "errors in their way':eek:

Nothing gained nothing learnt:)

[mudmouse]

Certainly, no blinkers either, reminds me of a line from the movie Billy Jack
"when the Police break the law, there is no Law", no disrespect intended or implied to the hard working honest cops out there or here, Regards Frank.

Yeah, there is a general exemption in the road rules (Rule 305) that says a rule need not apply if it is reasonable that it should not apply... ie: in the course of conducting the 'Queens business'. So it's not a good look in many cases, however it is an exemption.

The radars are accurate to +/- 2kph. Its the way its used and various interferences that generate the errors. From your side of the table she had a fair error in that reading of 128!! At the end of the day you just have to know the right questions to ask to ensure the device was tested, operating and used correctly.. but unless you use them, you don't have a clue:(

..and speed cameras are a load of crap:twisted:

[subasurf]

*BUMP*
No point starting a new thread.

Hey chaps, need something cleared up.
I elected to take a ticket case to court today. Don't know when I'll recieve a summons. Long story short, I got a ticket for going 100km in a 90km zone. In the photo there is a car right next to me heading the same direction so I'm contesting it, as I do not believe I was the one speeding. I had surfboards on my roof and I generally don't go very fast with them on there.

I went into the police station today to get an officer to witness my signature on the ticket notice to say I wanted it heard in court. The officer was being an absolute bitch (which is a shame, because it doesn't help the local police's public look on bit) but I remained polite. She said that they're not stupid and that cameras never lie, etc etc etc. Then she said I would be charged several hundred dollars on top of the ticket fine if the court doesn't dismiss the fine.

Is this true? Doesn't exactly seam right. Will I actually be charged for the summons if I am still found 'guilty' of speeding.

Innocent untill proven guilty eh? I wish.

[BMKal]

I would imagine the extra "several hundred dollars" would be court costs.

If you lose the case, then "costs" are usually awarded against you - meaning you may have to pay for the cost of the court hearing, plus any cost your opponent (the police) may have incurred in defending their position (such as lawyer's costs etc).

I don't think that you can actually be fined any more than the value of the fine you are challenging.

[subasurf]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I still think it's a bit messed up that I can get charged extra because I'm using my right to defend myself against a bs charge. On top of that, I'm expecting another one in the mail soon.
Was doing 90 on the freeway (100kmph limit). I know I was doing 90 cause I had the gps to confirm it and was stuck behind a slow boat. A tosser in an XR8 Turbo bogan-mobile absolutely flies past me in the right hand lane and triggers a camera at the exact moment I'm next to him. I know, for a fact, I'll get a ticket as well as him. Double demerits too, which would be a license loss if I can't get off the charge in court.

Bloody revenue raising cops. They have no problem wasting time having cameras on freeways but they refuse to come down to our shop after we've been robbed. Scumbags.

[waz]

Yeah, that's what I meant. I still think it's a bit messed up that I can get charged extra because I'm using my right to defend myself against a bs charge. On top of that, I'm expecting another one in the mail soon.
Was doing 90 on the freeway (100kmph limit). I know I was doing 90 cause I had the gps to confirm it and was stuck behind a slow boat. A tosser in an XR8 Turbo bogan-mobile absolutely flies past me in the right hand lane and triggers a camera at the exact moment I'm next to him. I know, for a fact, I'll get a ticket as well as him. Double demerits too, which would be a license loss if I can't get off the charge in court.

Bloody revenue raising cops. They have no problem wasting time having cameras on freeways but they refuse to come down to our shop after we've been robbed. Scumbags.

Does your gps have a log of the time and speed?

Waz

[subasurf]

Hmmm, you might be onto something. I don't believe it would have logged anything without having been commanded to. I'll look into it.

My best chance is to draw the process out as long as possible. I'm going away overseas and around the state a lot this years so I'll just keep deferring the court date as much as I can and hopefully the coppas will just bin it.

[willem]

Certainly, no blinkers either, reminds me of a line from the movie Billy Jack
"when the Police break the law, there is no Law", no disrespect intended or implied to the hard working honest cops out there or here, Regards Frank.

But its still Rex Lex, not Lex Rex. The king (police, in this case) is not above the law, but under the law. The police have no more right to break the law than you or I. Not that it always happens that way. Police do break the law, but then so do we. They too should be prosecuted like anyone else.

Willem

[subasurf]

They too should be prosecuted like anyone else.

Willem

I wish this was the case. We see cops committing traffic violations all the time when they are not in 'priotity 2'.

[Shonky]

So you are saying police can't exceed the speed limit (wrong) park illegally at an accident (wrong) use a phone or radio while driving (wrong) carry a weapon in public (wrong) shoot people (wrong) or access property without authorisation? (again, wrong)

Police are bound by the law - including the specific laws giving them exemptions from some of them under special circumstances. Saying that they should be prosecuted for legally doing their jobs is rediculous.

PS - obviously the above discounts occasions when such actions are unwarranted (eg 'expediting' to Macas for lunch) or due care is not given (eg taking a shortcut through a pre-school during a pursuit!)

[subasurf]

So you are saying police can't exceed the speed limit (wrong) park illegally at an accident (wrong) use a phone or radio while driving (wrong) carry a weapon in public (wrong) shoot people (wrong) or access property without authorisation? (again, wrong)


I'm only talking about when cops break the road rules for no good reason. If they don't have their sirens and lights going, the shouldn't be speeding, cutting people off, forgetting to use their indicators etc etc etc.

[HangOver]

The police have no more right to break the law than you or I.

bugs me when you see the cops eating a marsbar or drinking coffee but if we do that we could be booked :mad:

Also bugs me when cops speed, loads of times I've been behind a cop car doing exactly the limit, (as you would) and they pull away and no blue lights on.

[subasurf]

...or they blatantly tailgate you, hoping you'll speed up so they can book you.
When I was on my P's, I watched in my mirror, a cop on a motorbike hooning through traffic so he could catch up to me and tailgate me. He was literaly about 2-3 foot behind my rear bumper and wouldn't let up, just waiting for me to speed.
After a few kilometres, we approach traffic lights. They go amber and I was only JUST within safe braking distance, however I couldn't stop because he was SOOO close behind me I was scared he would run into me, especially seeing as it's wet. I shoot through the amber and get pulled over and threatened with 2 demerit points and a $150 fine for running an amber, which is a load of crap. I kept my mouth shut as he kept abusing me (he was the rudest cop I've deal with as most are quite pleasant) and then he lets me go. I wanted to tell him to stop tailgating people but hey, I got off the 'ticket' so no point drawing any attention. I just drove off hoping he was going to get cleaned up.

[Blknight.aus]

the tailgatings easy to fix, downshift, ignition off, hammer the brakes then upshift ignition on and keep driving. Its Very hard to explain why you hit the back of a slow obvious coloured vehicle in good light, especially if the driving lights are on.

and if your going to get a speeding ticket do it in a series rover, its very easy to get a 120+ speeding ticked over turned when they look at it and see a series with any other car in the picture.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Keep in mind that while these devices are treated by legislation as scientifically infallible they clearly are not and often make mistakes. Unfortunately it falls back to the person to prove them wrong.

There was one very high profile case in Vic where a number of cameras were very wrong and they incorrectly penalised thousands of motorists over a 6 month period before they were proven wrong by people who had to go to the media because they were ignored by the authorities.

Here in QLD I have seen them flashing people below the speed limit. I always go 10-20k under past any cameras I see. It annoys people but I may have saved them a near indefensible fine!

[Shonky]

I'm only talking about when cops break the road rules for no good reason. If they don't have their sirens and lights going, the shouldn't be speeding, cutting people off, forgetting to use their indicators etc etc etc.

Absolutely agree. My comment was directed at Willem. ;)




Also bugs me when cops speed, loads of times I've been behind a cop car doing exactly the limit, (as you would) and they pull away and no blue lights on.

:lol2: Yep! My girlfriend was driving last time we went out west. She was doing the speed limit over the mountains (now 80, used to be 100) and a cop was behind her. She was being all paranoid (P plater) that she would put a foot wrong and be booked. I told her he was probably waiting for the double lines to end so he could get past her and do what should be the limit! :p

Whaddya know? 5 minutes later and VROOM up the outside. :coplight:



...or they blatantly tailgate you, hoping you'll speed up so they can book you.

This REALLY ****es me off. :mad:

There is NO excuse for this and I think Dave is on the money. As far as I am concerned if they tailgate me, they are towball fodder.

"Didn't you see that dog run in front of me officer? You didn't? thats not very good hazard perception... Shame about your car - is that the new SS? Bet the Sarge will be angry hey..." ;)

[subasurf]

There was nothing I wanted to do more than slam the brakes and have that cop on the bike go head first through my rear window, but bare in mind at the time I was a P-plater. I would have been screwed.