Series III gearbox and clutch advice needed

[Tank]

My son (who is on the other side of the country) is looking at buying a 109 SIII, it seems that if you pull up and shift to neutral, when you go to move off the gearbox will not go into 1st gear, if you turn the motor off it will go into gear, hold the clutch in and start up and all's good till you have to stop again.
I have had no experience with this model Land rover (though I am restoring one at the moment), anyone had this problem, could it be the hydraulic clutch master and slave cylinder or something with the synchro's on first or whatever, any advice would be most welcome, Regards Frank.

[JDNSW]

That symptom can be caused by either clutch or gearbox problems, but in Landrovers is almost always a clutch problem.

And it is usually a problem with the clutch hydraulics. Check fluid level, and bleed the clutch system. If this fixes it, it is definitely the clutch hydraulics, and you haven't fixed it other than temporarily. Even if this does not fix the problem, it may still be the hydraulics - look for brake fluid on the front floor and from the wading plug hole to show whether it is the master or slave cylinder. I would be inclined to plan on replacing or overhauling both, and replace the flexible hose while you are at it (these rarely give trouble, but sometimes do, and it will be very old in all probability).

If not the actual hydraulics, it could be pedal adjustment, or gear oil on the clutch or a well worn release bearing.

John

[Tank]

That symptom can be caused by either clutch or gearbox problems, but in Landrovers is almost always a clutch problem.

And it is usually a problem with the clutch hydraulics. Check fluid level, and bleed the clutch system. If this fixes it, it is definitely the clutch hydraulics, and you haven't fixed it other than temporarily. Even if this does not fix the problem, it may still be the hydraulics - look for brake fluid on the front floor and from the wading plug hole to show whether it is the master or slave cylinder. I would be inclined to plan on replacing or overhauling both, and replace the flexible hose while you are at it (these rarely give trouble, but sometimes do, and it will be very old in all probability).

If not the actual hydraulics, it could be pedal adjustment, or gear oil on the clutch or a well worn release bearing.

John
Thanks for that John, I'll pass it onto my son, he is in good hands at the moment the 2 Brians BMKAL and LieutenantRover in Kalgoorlie are helping him learn the Land Rover ways, Regards Frank.

[JDNSW]

Thanks for that John, I'll pass it onto my son, he is in good hands at the moment the 2 Brians BMKAL and LieutenantRover in Kalgoorlie are helping him learn the Land Rover ways, Regards Frank.

With them helping he is, as you say, in good hands.

John

[sammi08]

My son (who is on the other side of the country) is looking at buying a 109 SIII, it seems that if you pull up and shift to neutral, when you go to move off the gearbox will not go into 1st gear, if you turn the motor off it will go into gear, hold the clutch in and start up and all's good till you have to stop again.
I have had no experience with this model Land rover (though I am restoring one at the moment), anyone had this problem, could it be the hydraulic clutch master and slave cylinder or something with the synchro's on first or whatever, any advice would be most welcome, Regards Frank.
hi mate i think youll find that this model is full time awd so the only time you put the hi-lo gear into neautral is for towing other than that it will be in hi-gear for every day driving these models are not dis-engaged for highway the old series3 are good for about 80kmh they were made after all for farms in britain. hope this helps

[THE BOOGER]

Hi frank we just fixed the clutch on the booger it turned out to be the first flexible hose two probs one was it was expanding and clutch not disengaging properly then the throttle linkage had rubed a small hole in the same hose enventually losing small amounts of fluid replaced hose and all was well :D

[Blknight.aus]

the series III (unless its a stage 1) is a part time four wheel drive its easy to tell if you have part time or full time.

if you have a push down yellow knob near the main shift and a red handled lever you can pull back coming out of the floor adjacent to the transmission tunnel then its part time.

theres a data plate that tells you how to get from fwd hi to 2wd high by going back into low range on the firewall about inline with the main gearbox lever. It should also say something about not engaging four wheel drive on the road as tyre life will be reduced.

over 90% of the time the problem you are describing is caused by clutch drag, this is typically bought about by a problem with the clutch hydraulics but if the vehicle has been sitting around for a long time it can also be the clutch plate mucked up with rust.

the final cause is bearing related and is easily distinguished by trying to select reverse. use this method

Start the car, put your foot on the clutch and then try to select reverse if it grates and wont go in then its the clutch, if it drops in with a minimum of fuss then its the rear bearing. once its gone into reverse slide it out and try first gear again. if it baulks then its the clutch dragging and for one final check put it into second prior to engaging first if it doesnt want to go in try reverse. if reverse grates its definately the clutch.

Being an old box you may find that the syncros on first gear are pretty much gone so that will exaggerate any motion of the shafts while trying to pick first.

some other things to check are the quality and condition of the fluid in the clutch master cylinder, the condition of the hose on the slave, the freeplay setting on the pedal and if the pedal is firm or has any give in it.

get it anyway series gearboxes cost about $70 to re-bearing in parts and the clutch is a piece of cake to sort.

[Eddie S]

Hi all I'm new to Landrover, I've recently bought a 1976 SW S3 off a friend of mine. It has a Holden 186 motor and goes pretty well. The Fairy overdrive has benn pulled out as it was slipping out of gear when stopped at lights I've been told its stuffed. I hear that these O/D can be problematic and have been advised not to bother with it. The other problem I have is when going down a very steep hill in either low or high range the gearbox jumps out of 1st gear but transfer case is ok. Any help here would be greatly apprieciated. I guess I'm going to need lots of advice. Ta Eddie S.:)

[Rob king]

Eddie,

I have just been discussing a similar thing at the REMLR technical page for my series 3 ex military.

'Uncle Ho' suggested I look at the spring and ball locators on the 1st / 2nd selector rod. (under middle seat hatch). - see that thread.

The fairy OD can be a sought after item, I wouldnt toss it, you can buy the gear and the shaft (new) if they are worn.

Rob King
78 FFR series 3 6 cyl

[Eddie S]

Thanks mate I've changed the detent spring on gate 1st & 2nd - no luck, I think its getting to the point I may have to pull the box out. I've never done this before, I heard it can be done from under the car without having to pull the seat box out providing you split T/F case from box. If too difficult I may have to put it in to get it done. :(

[Sideroad]

I have a fairy O/D (and 1786) and though mine does not slip out of gear when stopped, I have always treated it as a 5th gear and see very little need to use it otherwise. There are parts available on ebay from time to time and though the O/Ds are loud and can have issues, they do give a better 100km/h cruise which helps the 186 regarding revs.


Hi all I'm new to Landrover, I've recently bought a 1976 SW S3 off a friend of mine. It has a Holden 186 motor and goes pretty well. The Fairy overdrive has benn pulled out as it was slipping out of gear when stopped at lights I've been told its stuffed. I hear that these O/D can be problematic and have been advised not to bother with it. The other problem I have is when going down a very steep hill in either low or high range the gearbox jumps out of 1st gear but transfer case is ok. Any help here would be greatly apprieciated. I guess I'm going to need lots of advice. Ta Eddie S.:)

[Eddie S]

Thanks very much very much Side road, advice much appreciated I'm inclined to think about rebuilding the O/D, not 100 0/0 sure though, Your right the 186 does rev a little hard. I still have concerns about the main gearbox slipping out of gear on overrun what does anybody out there think, is my gearbox in need of a rebuild? Is there any Nissan five speed gearbox conversions out there? I have been told standard gearbox is a little weak behind Holden motor. Ta Eddie S :).

[jc109]

On a loosely related matter, my 109" has recently started giving me curry (or should I say is just playing up more than it usually does?) after a vigorous outing that included some muddy water crossings. I don't know if that's the cause, but I can't think of anything else.

Every time I depress the clutch I hear a slight grinding noise. When I let it go it's fine. I keep my shifts short and sharp for the time being but I'm worried about long term damage. I told my mechanic about it when it was there recently and it camer back exactly the same. Either they thought it wasn't an issue or they just paid it off. Anyway, I suspect there's muck in there and that the sound is from the thrust bearing. Am I right?

Any suggestions?

[JDNSW]

Thanks very much very much Side road, advice much appreciated I'm inclined to think about rebuilding the O/D, not 100 0/0 sure though, Your right the 186 does rev a little hard. I still have concerns about the main gearbox slipping out of gear on overrun what does anybody out there think, is my gearbox in need of a rebuild? Is there any Nissan five speed gearbox conversions out there? I have been told standard gearbox is a little weak behind Holden motor. Ta Eddie S :).

Rebuilding the overdrive is quite feasible. All parts are available from Rovers Down South in New Orleans, but be warned, parts are expensive, although the appreciation of the $A against the $US will have helped. Some bearings and seals are available locally from bearing suppliers, and this is probably cheaper.

While it is possible to fit five speed gearboxes to the Landrover transfer case, there is none that is done routinely, which means that each one is a major engineering exercise, requiring adapters at the bell housing and the transfer case, and probably making a new output shaft. If length cannot be kept the same, new front and rear prop shafts will be required, plus modifying engine mounts.

John

[Eddie S]

Thanks to all your replies, I'm seriously thinking about a high ratio T/F case if I have to pull the whole gearbox assembly. Been in contact with Land Vesicle Spares who suggested this would work great behind the 186 Holden. I'm still worried about that standard gearbox would the HR T/F case stress the box more? Also been in contact wirh Dellow automotive yep no one his anything readily available for Series landy 5speed conversion. Eddie S

[TJWA]

Thanks to all your replies, I'm seriously thinking about a high ratio T/F case if I have to pull the whole gearbox assembly. Been in contact with Land Vesicle Spares who suggested this would work great behind the 186 Holden. I'm still worried about that standard gearbox would the HR T/F case stress the box more? Also been in contact wirh Dellow automotive yep no one his anything readily available for Series landy 5speed conversion. Eddie S


I've had a high ratio transfer case behind my 186 for over 6 months with no problems. Got mine directly from Ashcroft in the UK for just over $700 all up.

I've also got an Ashcroft 5 speed LT77 to Series Transfer case, but have yet to put it in a vehicle.

[Eddie S]

I've had a high ratio transfer case behind my 186 for over 6 months with no problems. Got mine directly from Ashcroft in the UK for just over $700 all up.

I've also got an Ashcroft 5 speed LT77 to Series Transfer case, but have yet to put it in a vehicle.
Thanks mate, the 5 speed LT77 is the one I would be interested in would that fit behind my 186 the adapter plate that goes to the original six cylinder 4 speed? And $700 all up included shipping to Australia? thats a great price for HRT/F case, most are asking around the $2000 for complete mod here in Australia. :)

[Eddie S]

Hey can anybody tell me how I can down load a photo of my Landy the same way you all have when you post your threads. For some reason I cant do it.:confused:

[TJWA]

Thanks mate, the 5 speed LT77 is the one I would be interested in would that fit behind my 186 the adapter plate that goes to the original six cylinder 4 speed? And $700 all up included shipping to Australia? thats a great price for HRT/F case, most are asking around the $2000 for complete mod here in Australia. :)

If it was originally a 6cyl you'll need to get a 4cyl adapter plate fitted to the 186 first to fit the LT77. The LT77 has the same bellhousing pattern as a 4cyl Series.

It took me three days to do the HRTC mod. One day to pull it out, one day to change the transfer case and gears over then one day to put it back in, all by myself (I'm an electrician by the way, not a mechanic).

[TJWA]

Hey can anybody tell me how I can down load a photo of my Landy the same way you all have when you post your threads. For some reason I cant do it.:confused:

Press the "Manage Attachments" button.

[Eddie S]

If it was originally a 6cyl you'll need to get a 4cyl adapter plate fitted to the 186 first to fit the LT77. The LT77 has the same bellhousing pattern as a 4cyl Series.

It took me three days to do the HRTC mod. One day to pull it out, one day to change the transfer case and gears over then one day to put it back in, all by myself (I'm an electrician by the way, not a mechanic).
OK thanks mate, I have some serios home work to do, never removed gearbox before on these trucks. I'm also fitting duel batteries in engine bay more on that later with photo's I hope...:angel:

[Eddie S]

Hi all, took the old truck for a spin down a very steep decent, put it in low range 1st - again it jumped out of gear in gearbox. I checked all engine & gearbox mounts, all oil levels etc still it jumps out. I think this is more sinister; anyone got some thoughts on this? Any help would be greatly appriciated before I consider pulling th box out. :(

[Blknight.aus]

syncro units or if your lucky weak detent springs.

you only have to uncover the box for the latter and should replace those as part of a rebuild anyway so its no loss to replace those straight up and see if that cures the problem.

[Rob king]

have to agree with blknight.
I have exactly the same problem.
Tried the detent spring and ball, no better.
A fitter mate of mine reckons its the syncro, a transmission bloke I know said maybe the gear itself.
Either way seems i'm going in! - keen to hear what you find too.
Rob king

[Eddie S]

have to agree with blknight.
I have exactly the same problem.
Tried the detent spring and ball, no better.
A fitter mate of mine reckons its the syncro, a transmission bloke I know said maybe the gear itself.
Either way seems i'm going in! - keen to hear what you find too.
Rob king
Thanks to all for your responses, Replaced detent springs - no good, pity there's no readily 5speed conversion kits out there looks like box may have to come out.:(

[lane]

For what it's worth, we replaced our box a couple of weeks ago. Two teenage boys plus some advice and a little assistance from me as they went along, and it was done in a Saturday afternoon. It really isn't that difficult. I'd say the only thing you need which you may not have is an engine crane to lift the box out. If you have a couple of strong blokes on hand you could probably do it by hand, but the box is very heavy.

And if you don't have a Haynes manual, grab one, they are worth their weight in gold.

Good luck!

Edit: Pics here: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-3/82874-series-iii-burned-rebuild-18.html#post1316476

[Eddie S]

Hi guys, this may sound like a dumb question - I have a 186 Holden in my S3, it was origionally a L/R 6 to my Knowledge. I want to know if the gearbox used would be the 'six' box or the 'four'. How can I tell? I hear most of the adaptor plates used for Holdesn conversions use the 'four' box. Any info greatly appreciated.:confused:

[87County]

no questions are dumb mate - most of us learn by asking them

the gearbox is essentially the same...

the difference between the 2.25 & 2.6 is the bellhousing -

the difference being the location/pattern of the bolt holes holding the bellhousing onto the flywheel housing

to ascertain the difference, the bellhousing for the 4 cyl (petrol or diesel) has a bolt at the 12 o'clock position, the bellhousing for the 6 cyl does not.

any of the S2/3 gearboxes can mate with any of the S2/3 bellhousings , so choose a bellhousing appropriate to your engine

hopefully other expertise from others will be added

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi guys, this may sound like a dumb question - I have a 186 Holden in my S3, it was origionally a L/R 6 to my Knowledge. I want to know if the gearbox used would be the 'six' box or the 'four'. How can I tell? I hear most of the adaptor plates used for Holdesn conversions use the 'four' box. Any info greatly appreciated.:confused:
Holden conversions to 4 cylinder vehicles usually required the radiator to be moved forward and a the front cross member cut out on the top/trailing edge. The gear stick usually rakes backwards, the engine mount brackets on the chassis are almost below the mounts on the engine.

The conversions to six cylinder vehicles did not require the radiator to be moved forward. The gearstick is almost vertical. The engine mount brackets on the chassis are about 6" in front of the mounting bolts on the engine.

The gearboxes are internally the same.

You can fit a 4 cyl bellhousing onto a 6cyl box and vica versa.

Adapter kits were made for both models, but sometimes they have subsequently been swapped around.

Diana

[Eddie S]

Thanks guys, your help on such matters has been valuable, I will get under the bonnett or under the truck and try to see these bolts on the bell housing. No the radiater has not been moved and gear leaver appears almost verticle - looks like an original '6' car, I will also post some pictures as they may help with advice. Best regards Eddie.:)

[pfillery]

Maybe check your transfer lever. My car was reportedly jumping out of gear when in fact it was the transfer disengaging into neutral, or partly into neutral. I had to trim a cm of floor out from in front of the transfer lever so it could move all the way forward properly - aparently on some holden conversions the engine/gearbox sits about 2 cm further forward than the normal setup, hence when the lever is engaged it can touch the floor under the boot and is easilly jarred back out of position. My red transfer lever now almost touches the firewall but locks positively into place when engaged. Might be worth checking.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

no questions are dumb mate - most of us learn by asking them

<snip>

any of the S2/3 gearboxes can mate with any of the S2/3 bellhousings , so choose a bellhousing appropriate to your engine

hopefully other expertise from others will be addedPretty close to everything one wants to know, except that you need to swap like for like. i.e. you can swap a SIII 4 cyl with a SIII 6 cyl and a SIIa 4 cyl with a SIIa 6 cyl, or even a SI petrol engine bellhousing (which will fit to a Land Rover 6 cyl engine) with a SII 2 1/4 litre bellhousing. However outside those swaps there are issues with the type of clutch throw-out, differences in the gearbox primary pinion or even size of the layshaft front bearing.

[peterg1001]

Maybe check your transfer lever. My car was reportedly jumping out of gear when in fact it was the transfer disengaging into neutral, or partly into neutral. I had to trim a cm of floor out from in front of the transfer lever so it could move all the way forward properly - aparently on some holden conversions the engine/gearbox sits about 2 cm further forward than the normal setup, hence when the lever is engaged it can touch the floor under the boot and is easilly jarred back out of position. My red transfer lever now almost touches the firewall but locks positively into place when engaged. Might be worth checking.

A related problem I found was that when installing the transfer lever rubber boot (commonly found on ebay at the moment) the rubber was so stiff it forced the transfer lever back into neutral.

I got around it by cutting the little tit off the top of the boot, cutting a slit along the top, and punching extra holes in the boot to match low and high gears.

Peter

[pfillery]

A related problem I found was that when installing the transfer lever rubber boot (commonly found on ebay at the moment) the rubber was so stiff it forced the transfer lever back into neutral.

I got around it by cutting the little tit off the top of the boot, cutting a slit along the top, and punching extra holes in the boot to match low and high gears.

Peter

Some of those replacement parts on ebay look a little cheap and junky don't they. I think some of the retailers that advertise on here and some others I've found on the web have better prices anyway than some of the ebay ones, often half the price and far less postage (some of those boots are selling for $12 on ebay with $10-12 postage, whereas they are $$6 or $7 elsewhere)

I'm wondering about doortops and how good some of the $110 ones are on ebay, often not easy to tell from the pics. Thankfully my transfer boot is ok although my handbrake one is tatty and my main gear one is cracked, not that it really covers much anyway.

[Eddie S]

Hi all, OK - how strong are the original gearboxes? I hear all sorts of stories e.g they are weak dont cop alot of abuse especially behind Holden motor. The reason I ask as mine looks like it needs to come out and I'm debating either looking for some type of other G/B conversion like Ashcroft or recon the original and may go for the Roverdrive which may be far more simple. Friends of mine have original 2.25L in theres seams to take alot off roadand they have towed pretty heavy trailers in past. Can they take long fast highway speed driving within reason? I'm not a rough driver maybe worried over nothing, I'm new to landrover, still learning. Any help would be greatly appreciated, ta Eddie :confused:.