Fishplate Chassis

[numpty]

One for the gurus. I've heard mention of the early S1's having a "fishplate" chassis. What is the difference and where are the differences. Our 80" is a '50 and I am interested in working out what it's got.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

One for the gurus. I've heard mention of the early S1's having a "fishplate" chassis. What is the difference and where are the differences. Our 80" is a '50 and I am interested in working out what it's got.

Numpty

It all has to do with the front bumper bar attachments. The first production Land Rovers up to the middle of 1950 had bumper bars where the brackets that held on the bar were plates attached top and bottom to the front of the chassis rails. These have a vague appearence of a fishtail and hence the term fishplate chassis. The bar was attached to the fishplates by 8 short bolts.

The subsequent bumpers, from late 1950, had the bracket welded onto the bar itself and attached to the chassis with 4 long bolts.

A few other differences:
1948 bars were silver painted and had the crank handle bracket fully seam welded.
1949 - 50 bars were galvanised with spot welded crank handle bracket.
1950 onwards bars had the crank handle bracket seam welded at each end.
1948 - 50 bars had a radius arc at the ends
1950 onwards bars had curved ends which were not a radius from the front face.
Boxing of the back of the bar came in with the 1954 model.

Cheers
Diana

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Diana,
assuming then that these bar attachments were welded to the chassis, ours does not have them....

as for the bar itself...we never got the original bar so can't comment

NM

This can sometimes be a problem with the mid 1950 vehicles around the time of the change. You can determine what "should be" by the chassis number and the parts catalogue.

The biggest issue is that over 58 years it is quite possible that some PO removed the fishplates to fit a later bumper bar. Without checking the catalogue, you can usualy determine if the fish plates were removed by the evidence of the welding and most importantly, the absence of the tubes through the chassis where the bolts would go. (although these have often rusted away even in the later cars).

The chassis number for the change (2 sources): Fishplate chassis up to and including 06103840
Non-fishplate 06103841 onwards

In the mean time the attached pic shows the fishplates on a restored 1950 model. (Not one of Fred's bars though)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/02/172.jpg

Diana

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Numpties

If you don't have the fishplates and it is likely that they should be there, I am sure that we can get some tracings off originals (or even a CAD drawing)

Let me know?

Diana

[JDNSW]

One of the things this thread has pointed out is that there were a large number of changes made during Series 1 production, many of which are not really very well documented.

As an example, I have read that during 80" production the dies used for pressing the bulkhead cracked, and to avoid stopping production, an undocumented number were produced with built-up bulkheads, some steel and some alloy. It is very likely that there were a large number of other similar makeshifts in the early days of production, most of which will not be as obvious. Add more than fifty years of loss of records and of owner makeshifts .............

My impression is that the 86/107 were the first really stable production specification, partly because by that time Rover was coming to grips with the fact that the Landrover was not going to be a temporary fill in to keep the company going, and that there were real advantages in keeping the design stable and documented, especially for supplying spares!

John

[easo]

Can you explane what the fish plate are?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Can you explane what the fish plate are?
See http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-i-land-rover-enthusiasts-section/51995-fishplate-chassis.html#post695956

and the image in http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-i-land-rover-enthusiasts-section/51995-fishplate-chassis.html#post695987 they are the green plates you can see on the top of the gal bar.

Diana

[Lotz-A-Landies]

One of the things this thread has pointed out is that there were a large number of changes made during Series 1 production, many of which are not really very well documented.

As an example, I have read that during 80" production the dies used for pressing the bulkhead cracked, and to avoid stopping production, an undocumented number were produced with built-up bulkheads, some steel and some alloy. It is very likely that there were a large number of other similar makeshifts in the early days of production, most of which will not be as obvious. Add more than fifty years of loss of records and of owner makeshifts .............

My impression is that the 86/107 were the first really stable production specification, ....

... John
John

You are somewhat correct in these statements. There were a huge number of modifications made during the 80" and even the myth about the aluminium bulkheads. In fact I will post some pics of them later tonight when I get home.

What I know you do and that I try to do, is research the facts as much as possible. When it comes to the 80" I have regular correspondence with Mike Bishop, who is one of the pre-eminent historians on the model/s. In fact Mike is likely to have a book launch on his new book covering the various changes in the 80" during the Cooma festival.

I have had a number of discussions with Mike regarding the aluminium firewalls. It is his opinion about the firewalls is that they were not a production item but rather an after market (or after production) replacement put into the replacement parts chain. Some evidence for this is that they are not documented in any of the early Rover parts catalogues or service bulletins and that a number of NOS aluminium firewalls were actually returned to Australia when a Land Rover parts warehouse in New Guinea was closed up.

The story about the breakdown of the press is probably more likely that the press was engaged in current model production and no time available to re-produce panels for what was then a superseded model.

I await Mike's book.

Cheers
Diana

Addit: Aluminium covered firewall images:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/936.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/937.jpg

Notice the bolt on hinge mountings!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/02/170.jpg

Images lost internet source.

[JDNSW]

John

You are somewhat correct in these statements. There were a huge number of modifications made during the 80" and even the myth about the aluminium bulkheads. In fact I will post some pics of them later tonight when I get home.

What I know you do and that I try to do, is research the facts as much as possible. When it comes to the 80" I have regular correspondence with Mike Bishop, who is one of the pre-eminent historians on the model/s. In fact Mike is likely to have a book launch on his new book covering the various changes in the 80" during the Cooma festival.

I have had a number of discussions with Mike regarding the aluminium firewalls. It is his opinion about the firewalls is that they were not a production item but rather an after market (or after production) replacement put into the replacement parts chain. Some evidence for this is that they are not documented in any of the early Rover parts catalogues or service bulletins and that a number of NOS aluminium firewalls were actually returned to Australia when a Land Rover parts warehouse in New Guinea was closed up.

The story about the breakdown of the press is probably more likely that the press was engaged in current model production and no time available to re-produce panels for what was then a superseded model.

I await Mike's book.

Cheers
Diana

I would be interested in the book myself - do you know if it will be on sale there?

The fact that they were not documented does not necessarily mean they did not go into production vehicles. Although it must be remembered that Rover spent the war which finished only about 3-8 years earlier on military and aviation production, and they would have had in place very stringent record keeping systems. But these would not have necessarily been translated into published documents, or, indeed preserved after production of the particular model had ceased.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I would be interested in the book myself - do you know if it will be on sale there?

The fact that they were not documented does not necessarily mean they did not go into production vehicles. Although it must be remembered that Rover spent the war which finished only about 3-8 years earlier on military and aviation production, and they would have had in place very stringent record keeping systems. But these would not have necessarily been translated into published documents, or, indeed preserved after production of the particular model had ceased.

John
I haven't spoken to Mike in about a month but he was hoping to have the book available for launch and sale at Cooma. What other event would more appropriate, for the launch of a historical document on Land Rover?

Regarding source material, Mike is one of those few people who has free access to the archives at Gaydon, and even gets to research directly from the Rover Co books rather than receiving extracts from the archivists. That said, there is apparently a huge volume of documents from Rover that have never been reviewed since their arrival from the Solihull factory.

One thing that I am unsure about is whether Mike's book will cover the entire 80" production, or if it will only focus on his main area of interest the pre-861500 vehicles.

Diana

[JDNSW]

I............ That said, there is apparently a huge volume of documents from Rover that have never been reviewed since their arrival from the Solihull factory.........
Diana

Sounds as if that may be where a lot of the records I referred to ended up! At least they should be preserved there, although it could be decades before anyone looks at them.

John

[numpty]

Interesting discussion, and I am learning all the time. I too would be interested in Mike's book if indeed it refers to all 80" production.

Once again thanks Diana, you are quite a font of knowledge.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...Once again thanks Diana, you are quite a font of knowledge.

Being an Anglophile I graciously accept your compliment of my being a fount of knowledge

Thank you!
Diana

[numpty]

Being an Anglophile I graciously accept your compliment of my being a fount of knowledge

Thank you!
Diana

You know how it goes........you say potato and I say..........potato;)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

You know how it goes........you say potato and I say..........potato;)
At work I have responsibility for policy review and publication on the intranet and am constantly receiving documents with "English (U.S.) " as the language setting.

If I don't re-set the language to English (U.K.) and spell check it before publication, I can guarantee that within 5 minutes of publication, one of the medical staff specialists will send me an email complaining about the spelling.

Hence the fount and my pedantry (not paederasty as mentioned elsewhere)

Cheers :) :)
Diana

[numpty]

At work I have responsibility for policy review and publication on the intranet and am constantly receiving documents with "English (U.S.) " as the language setting.

If I don't re-set the language to English (U.K.) and spell check it before publication, I can guarantee that within 5 minutes of publication, one of the medical staff specialists will send me an email complaining about the spelling.

Hence the fount and my pedantry (not paediastry as mentioned elsewhere)

Cheers :) :)
Diana

I appreciate the English/US differences, (and I abhor the latter) and from one who has had a reasonable schooling, (even though I am but a mere fireman) I am familiar with both a pedant and a paederast. Although I have no particular familiarality with the latter.:angel:

[series1buff]

The fish plates and bumber bars on these cars were subjected to much abuse and in my case I decided to cut them off , badly twisted and bent . I could have had new plates guillotined at the local place but you need to weld them in place. This job means you need to upside down the chassis .. hard for me as it's on 4 wheels . It's a job for the bare chassis stage , where it's easy to get at things .

The aluminium bulkeads : I put forward my theory that they were after market some time back.. not many agreed with me . At the very least Rover would have mentioned it in a service bulletin . British being what they are , you would think they would have notified their dealerships of the change . Still, a piece of paper may turn up .

Mike in Gippsland