What level of English do our schools teach our youths?

[PCH]

I've been looking at bicycle forums lately to bring me back up to speed on the current technology.

What has stunned me is that many forum members appear to be our young people with a passion for cycling but a lack of English skills. I'm far from being an English language expert but...

Quoted below is a reply post from a Uni student :angry::

"I ride my bike (2003 kona stuff) to uni pretty much every day. Ive spent bout 100 bucks on locks. I bought thick cable steel reinforced locks and i keep it at uni chained to the bike posts. There are 2 of em there.
I dun carry it around with me coz simply they are too heavy. (literately each one is like a 1kg each. they are visually strong AND structuring.)

If u commute regularly to work or school or uni keep ur locks there. Spend sum dosh on being safe , ie the locks rather then buying a new bike wen sum loser steals it.

Since ive started doing it about every second bike stand has sum1's lock on it. I use two. One for the frame and the front whell and one thru the back wheel and my frame.
Ive got tuff neck hubs. there is no way im gonna let them go.
AS for the seat. Just bring it with u. u might look like a dork but id rather be a dork for a few hours rather then be a real dork riding without a sit and the risk of injury to me gonad.....geez no WAY! http://forums.****in.net/images/smilies/eek.gif

Anyhowz I have a bike am proud of it and will ride it. I know that sum punks want it, seen them loitering around. The locks have worked a treat so far. AND for the realli paranold have HEAPS of locks. At the end of the day locks are an investment not a lost. Face it. I aight gonna throw my locks away."

I can understand that the new generation do a lot of SMS texting and shorten words but this is certainly not a SMS message. I think we should be worried.

Chris

[BMKal]

You don't need to go as far as a cycling forum to see this. Try the Australian 4WD Action Forum.

[Quarks]

Ok.
In high school, I had one lesson on grammar. Ever.
That was in year 9. :o

Spelling and grammar don't seem to matter as much as exploring texts* in relation to their contexts and developing an understanding of the effects of context and questions of value. (brutalised from my NSW HSC English Syllabus:eek:)

In other words, you're going to write BS anyway, so who cares how you spell it!! :twisted::twisted::twisted:
:angel::wasntme:


Ok, rant off.

The other thing to note is that a lot of Australian slang came about as a verbal shortening of words; it would appear that with the internet, forums, and keyboard use, this is a way of developing a shorter language.
Also, it is reasonably informal, I bet that the same person would use different spellings in something more formal.

:)

P.S. As a uni student who rides his bike, 1 lock works fine on a 30y.o. bike that breaks down more often than a landy! :p

* a text isn't just a book or play. Pictures count too!! ;)

[Dave_S]

I'm on a few cycling forums and 4x4 forums. The general level of literacy on all of them is pretty woeful, but some of the school kids are completely unintelligible. They also have a habit of "post whoring", putting up hundreds of pointless comments and stretching threads on and on for no reason.

People get very touchy about it though. If you try to ask people to run spell check before posting, you risk a torrent of abuse and people assume that you bat for the other team:eek:

[LRHybrid100]

I blame Texting - you want to see some of the Resumes we get with txt language in them!!!

[abaddonxi]

Aside from the last paragraph, where the poster used 'lost' for 'loss' and 'aight' for who-knows-what, it seems like most of it is txt style abbreviations.

I'd count that as informed breaking of the rules rather than a lack of literacy, which to me would count as literate to a greater extent than someone who can't create a grammatical sentence or spell correctly.

Cheers
Simon

[Xavie]

I know what you mean PCH and it concerns me too. Some times it is not actually possible to understand what someone has written and that annoys me no end.

Xav

[BigJon]

. They also have a habit of "post whoring", putting up hundreds of pointless comments and stretching threads on and on for no reason.

:eek:

Check out the "stars" thread here... :angel::p

[vnx205]

Presumably the school has taught him/her a level of English sufficient for him/her to spell words like:

reinforced
visually
regularly
loitering
investment

but apparently not:
literally

I don't think what the kid was taught at school has much to do with the trendy, lazy, inconsiderate way he/she has used the language in that post.

[Tango51]

I coont see nufink rong, he juss cun spel.:wasntme:

[RonMcGr]

Often wondered that myself.

They cannot read or write very well, but they sure can do TXT Messages....

[Tango51]

It is seriously a shameful level, how often have you had to spell aloud the name of some vegetable so the cashier could do a price check?
My wife once had to tell a young woman that the vegetable she didn't recognize was a cabbage, then spell out "C A double B....
Australian metric exams maths sections were completed at 90%+ by a variety of 12 year olds in foreign countries as a test.
Japanese High School graduates did the same with 3rd year Maths degree papers at University level.
Will this initiate a discussion of salaries for teachers/lecturers? :wasntme:

[BigJon]

Most of the problems stem from the home. Basic language skills should be taught and reinforced in the home environment, often they are not.

Having a retired teacher for a mother, an ESL teacher for a sister and a junior school teacher as a girlfriend, you won't find me supporting any arguments for performance rating teachers salaries or reducing them in any way.

There is no way on Gods Green Earth you would get me working as a teacher! They earn every cent they get.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...Quoted below is a reply post from a Uni student :angry::

"I ride ... ...bout 100 bucks on locks. I bought thick cable steel reinforced locks and i keep it at uni chained to the bike posts. There are 2 of em there.
I dun carry it around with me coz simply they are too heavy. (literately each one is like a 1kg each. they are visually strong AND structuring.)

If u commute regularly to work or school or uni keep ur locks there. Spend sum dosh on being safe , ie the locks rather then buying a new bike wen sum loser steals it.

Since ive started doing it about every second bike stand has sum1's lock on it. ..."

I can understand that the new generation do a lot of SMS texting and shorten words but this is certainly not a SMS message. I think we should be worried.
Chris

And this person matriculated to university? He is most likely to be an Arts Degree, English Literature major!

Do U spEk Nokia?

Diana

[Slunnie]

Spelling and grammar don't seem to matter as much as exploring texts* in relation to their contexts and developing an understanding of the effects of context and questions of value. (brutalised from my NSW HSC English Syllabus:eek:)

In other words, you're going to write BS anyway, so who cares how you spell it!! :twisted::twisted::twisted:
So it seems that you've learnt higher order thinking rather than being a clueless bum... thats what all of that meaningless BS is, but sometimes it's not realised that you are actually learning... just not what you think that you're learning. If you interpret your BOS syllabus using your higher order thinking you'll find that in there too. If you were writing BS you probably wont see it.

I doubt very much the English syllabus includes Nokia speak and perhaps it's use should be directed to somewhere else other than the schools.

[jik22]

You don't need to go as far as a cycling forum to see this. Try the Australian 4WD Action Forum.

True, but I don't think the lack of literacy skills there is necessarily age related. ;)

[rick130]

another forum I'm on, text speak is banned....

"No SMS text in posts. We have members and lurkers who are sight-impaired and rely on screen readers to decipher posts. Please spell all words out in full and also check your posts for spelling errors. Near enough is good enough may be good enough for you, but those who rely on screen readers won't be able to make any sense of your messages at all."

which I think is fair enough.

[rick130]

and a lack of formal grammar in the NSW English High School syllabus is nothing new.
I remember being told by our Year 7 English teacher in 1977 that grammar was no longer part of the curriculum, however the entire English faculty strongly believed that we needed to be taught grammar and so were.

[numpty]

There's shocking spelling and grammar a lot closer to home than that forum.

Have you read some of the posts on here:o

Spelling and grammar seem to be one of those things.....you either can.....or you don't give a #&*t.

[Mud_Bogger6]

Aside from the last paragraph, where the poster used 'lost' for 'loss' and 'aight' for who-knows-what, it seems like most of it is txt style abbreviations.

Cheers
Simon


'Aight is supposed to mean alright, as for using txt style writting i rarely use it, some people I txt bag me out about it, but I find it easier to use full words.

[Rovernaut]

U guyz got no rite 2 ava a go at ppl jus coz uze got mor skooling dan da ress of us

[numpty]

U guyz got no rite 2 ava a go at ppl jus coz uze got mor skooling dan da ress of us

I'll be a clever dick here:)..........But posts like this make it alright for the preceding comments about real speak (as opposed to text) to mean nothing.:angel:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

U guyz got no rite 2 ava a go at ppl jus coz uze got mor skooling dan da ress of us

Bt ta gzza in ta stry wz @ uni so hd ltz mor eduktn

D

[JDNSW]

Unfortunately, we are now far enough down the road that not only is grammar and spelling no longer taught, but most of the current teachers did not learn them, so changing the situation is rather difficult.

And speaking as a former editor of a fairly major international technical journal, lousy English is not limited to the young, nor to those whose first language is not English, nor to the uneducated. And the worst problem is not spelling or grammar, but the ability to say what you mean in a way that the reader sees the same meaning, without any ambiguity.

John

[stevo68]

There's shocking spelling and grammar a lot closer to home than that forum.

Have you read some of the posts on here:o

Spelling and grammar seem to be one of those things.....you either can.....or you don't give a #&*t. Numpty, beat me to it, but yes, I find it quite poor on our own forum. In fact I posted a thread on exactly that topic some time ago. To be honest, I tend to look over the threads or posts that have exceptionally poor grammar or spelling. The odd error here and there is no biggie, hell I make them. But when it is a battering of errors, I give up and move onto something more legible.

Even when I am having a differing perspective in a thread with someone, I still acknowledge the fact that they present their view point in a legible and constructive manner...ie I can read it.

Personally, I can't stand it, even if I am SMSing I generally make sure I use the correct spelling. We are not talking rocket science here, just simple spelling and grammar and that is a personal responsibility. To me, correct spelling and grammar is the same as good table etiquette, it matters,

Regards

Stevo

[stevo68]

U guyz got no rite 2 ava a go at ppl jus coz uze got mor skooling dan da ress of us I know that is a joke, but if some believed that is the reason why their spelling and grammar is poor as an adult...that is just plain BS,

Regards

Stevo

[vnx205]

Numpty, beat me to it, but yes, I find it quite poor on our own forum. In fact I posted a thread on exactly that topic some time ago. To be honest, I tend to look over the threads or posts that have exceptionally poor grammar or spelling. The odd error here and there is no biggie, hell I make them. But when it is a battering of errors, I give up and move onto something more legible.

Even when I am having a differing perspective in a thread with someone, I still acknowledge the fact that they present their view point in a legible and constructive manner...ie I can read it.

Personally, I can't stand it, even if I am SMSing I generally make sure I use the correct spelling. We are not talking rocket science here, just simple spelling and grammar and that is a personal responsibility. To me, correct spelling and grammar is the same as good table etiquette, it matters,

Regards

Stevo

I'm with you (on this subject).

If I think the post is about something technical I need to know, I generally persist with trying to extract the meaning when the writer hasn't made the effort to make it clear.

If the thread is just an exchange of opinions on general matters I don't bother any more. If the writer isn't going to make the effort to help me understand what is meant, I won't bother to read it.

Added Later
Actually now that I am in grumpy old man mode, I might as well keep going.

How come so many people got suckered into buying a computer where the Enter key doesn't work?

Why else would they have lengthy posts that consist of one very long paragraph or even one very long sentence?

Short sentences are good.

Short paragraphs are good.

White space is good.

And don't give me any of the usual argument about criticising those who are less well educated.

It doesn't require a high level of education or even English as a first language.

It's simple. Just write one idea clearly then press the Enter key.

Honestly a big slab of text is quite daunting.

I want to read what you write. I want to understand what you write.

I'm just trying to help you help me.

[BMKal]

I'm with you (on this subject).

If I think the post is about something technical I need to know, I generally persist with trying to extract the meaning when the writer hasn't made the effort to make it clear.

If the thread is just an exchange of opinions on general matters I don't bother any more. If the writer isn't going to make the effort to help me understand what is meant, I won't bother to read it.

Added Later
Actually now that I am in grumpy old man mode, I might as well keep going.

How come so many people got suckered into buying a computer where the Enter key doesn't work?

Why else would they have lengthy posts that consist of one very long paragraph or even one very long sentence?

Short sentences are good.

Short paragraphs are good.

White space is good.

And don't give me any of the usual argument about criticising those who are less well educated.

It doesn't require a high level of education or even English as a first language.

It's simple. Just write one idea clearly then press the Enter key.

Honestly a big slab of text is quite daunting.

I want to read what you write. I want to understand what you write.

I'm just trying to help you help me.


:thumbsup: Spot on !!! :thumbsup:

[Slunnie]

Actually that is an interesting one. When I was studying English in my first year at uni, they commented on this phenominum. Apparently the big sentances and paragraphs have come about with the use of computers, just like this nokia text has come about with the introduction of SMS I suppose.

[Sprint]

The most concerning part to me is the number of people who fail to spell even the most basic words correctly.

Needless to say, I was shocked just last week when, whilst doing a blanket test and tag on the equipment in the manual arts department at a local school, I told the first year apprentice that one particular item was a whetsone and not a bench grinder, and he actually knew how to spell it!

Afterwards he admitted to having been his schools spelling and grammar award winner for two years running..........

[zulu Delta 534]

Punctuation is my pet hate.
Example; "Woman without her man is nothing"
can be interpreted as;
1/ "Woman without her man, is nothing"
2/ "Woman, without her, man is nothing"
I suppose its a sexist thing where you put the commas, but those little commas sure can change a text!
Regards
Glen

[vnx205]

Actually that is an interesting one. When I was studying English in my first year at uni, they commented on this phenominum. Apparently the big sentances and paragraphs have come about with the use of computers, just like this nokia text has come about with the introduction of SMS I suppose.

It's probably true, but it's hard to understand why.

With a computer it is the easiest thing in the world to glance at the text when you have finished typing.

Then if it looks like a frighteningly big blob of text, you can quickly and easily go back and bung in a few carriage returns to separate the ideas.

It seems a lot of people don't bother.

[JDNSW]

Actually that is an interesting one. When I was studying English in my first year at uni, they commented on this phenominum. Apparently the big sentances and paragraphs have come about with the use of computers, just like this nokia text has come about with the introduction of SMS I suppose.


If long paragraphs and sentences are supposes to be a phenomenon from the use of computers, it rather suggests that those claiming that are very ignorant of history and literature.

Word spaces and paragraphs did not become generally used until the introduction of relatively cheap paper to replace parchment in the middle ages, and very long sentences and paragraphs remained common long after that. For example, in Sir John Mandeville's "Voyages and Travailes", the first sentence lasts three pages of print. A somewhat later example, opening my facsimile copy of Hakluyt's Voyages (1581) at random shows two facing pages with no paragraph breaks.

More recently, a quick look at Beadell's "Too Long in the Bush" (compulsory reading for any Landrover fan) shows only two paragraph breaks on the first page.

With the precomputer examples, I find it very hard to blame the computer, although I would point out that popular 19th century authors such as Scott, Dickens, Twain etc mostly have short paragraphs.

Perhaps the computer can be blamed in the sense that it enables people whose writing you would never have previously seen, to become visible.

John

[Tango51]

If long paragraphs and sentences are supposes to be a phenomenon from the use of computers, it rather suggests that those claiming that are very ignorant of history and literature.

Word spaces and paragraphs did not become generally used until the introduction of relatively cheap paper to replace parchment in the middle ages, and very long sentences and paragraphs remained common long after that. For example, in Sir John Mandeville's "Voyages and Travailes", the first sentence lasts three pages of print. A somewhat later example, opening my facsimile copy of Hakluyt's Voyages (1581) at random shows two facing pages with no paragraph breaks.

More recently, a quick look at Beadell's "Too Long in the Bush" (compulsory reading for any Landrover fan) shows only two paragraph breaks on the first page.

With the precomputer examples, I find it very hard to blame the computer, although I would point out that popular 19th century authors such as Scott, Dickens, Twain etc mostly have short paragraphs.

Perhaps the computer can be blamed in the sense that it enables people whose writing you would never have previously seen, to become visible.

John

Agreed, and amazed you resisted using Joyce as an example.<shudder>

[JDNSW]

Agreed, and amazed you resisted using Joyce as an example.<shudder>

Didn't take much resisting - with over 5,000 books in the house, I have no copies of Joyce!


John

[Tango51]

Didn't take much resisting - with over 5,000 books in the house, I have no copies of Joyce!


John
lol, I am with you, brother!

[procrastination inc]

"And the worst problem is not spelling or grammar, but the ability to say what you mean in a way that the reader sees the same meaning, without any ambiguity."

I think this is never really overcome. The great existentialist dilemma :)

It is a pity that the language with the most subtlety of meaning, and therefore has the greatest chance of bridging minds with clarity, is gradually being eroded for the sake of expedience.

[vnx205]

If long paragraphs and sentences are supposed to be a phenomenon from the use of computers, it rather suggests that those claiming that are very ignorant of history and literature.

Word spaces and paragraphs did not become generally used until the introduction of relatively cheap paper to replace parchment in the middle ages, and very long sentences and paragraphs remained common long after that. For example, in Sir John Mandeville's "Voyages and Travailes", the first sentence lasts three pages of print. A somewhat later example, opening my facsimile copy of Hakluyt's Voyages (1581) at random shows two facing pages with no paragraph breaks.

More recently, a quick look at Beadell's "Too Long in the Bush" (compulsory reading for any Landrover fan) shows only two paragraph breaks on the first page.

With the precomputer examples, I find it very hard to blame the computer, although I would point out that popular 19th century authors such as Scott, Dickens, Twain etc mostly have short paragraphs.

Perhaps the computer can be blamed in the sense that it enables people whose writing you would never have previously seen, to become visible.

John
Now that seems like a much more likely explanation.

You're certainly right about long paragraphs having been popular with some authors in the past.
I had a look at my facsimile copy of "Australia Twice Traversed" (1889) by Ernest Giles (probably the most literate of Australia's explorers) and four of the first five examples I picked at random had paragraphs of over three pages.
At least they were not all one sentence.

Someone may have fallen into the common trap of assuming that just because two things happened at the same time, that one must have caused the other.
Or in this case that something became apparent at the same time as a particular development, so that development must have caused it.

I agree with your evaluation of Beadell's books.

I hadn't heard of Hakluyt's Voyages so I tried Googling him
Have I got this right?
Mandeville was probably a fictitious name. Some of Hakluy'st collected stories of travellers were extracted from Mandevilles work?

They are available from ebooks @adelaide and Project Gutenberg. Not as good as having a facsimile copy, but I have started to read them nevertheless.

[vnx205]

"And the worst problem is not spelling or grammar, but the ability to say what you mean in a way that the reader sees the same meaning, without any ambiguity."

I think this is never really overcome. The great existentialist dilemma :)

It is a pity that the language with the most subtlety of meaning, and therefore has the greatest chance of bridging minds with clarity, is gradually being eroded for the sake of expedience.

Sometimes I think that is what worries me most about what is happening to the language; the loss of clarity and the subtle shades of meaning available to those who take the trouble to use the language appropriately.

One simple example. Few people now know when to use "less" and "fewer".
So does, "That section of highway had less serious accidents this year", mean there were not as many accidents or the accidents were not as bad?

If people used the language correctly, ".... fewer serious accidents ..." would mean one thing and, " .... less serious accidents ..." would mean something different.

[JDNSW]

..................

I hadn't heard of Hakluyt's Voyages so I tried Googling him
Have I got this right?
Mandeville was probably a fictitious name. Some of Hakluy'st collected stories of travellers were extracted from Mandevilles work?.....

Mandeville may or may not have been fictitious, but certainly a lot of the travels he recorded were, although it is possible that he actually did some of the travels, and inflated his adventures by uncritically including accounts from others, including Herodotus.

Hakluyt compiled an anthology of travels and voyages by the English, and as far as possible he used original accounts by the actual travellers. He may have regarded Mandeville's account as factual, but some of the other accounts he used for the pre-Tudor period (such as Geoffrey of Monmouth) he must have known were probably fiction. As far as I know he was the first historian to publish the actual accounts of the people involved in the expeditions rather than retelling them.

I have a 1965 facsimile copy of his 1589 (this is the correct date not the one I gave earlier - I checked) publication, and a 1927 edition of the final version, published in 1598-1600.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Punctuation is my pet hate.
Example; "Woman without her man is nothing"
can be interpreted as;
1/ "Woman without her man, is nothing"
2/ "Woman, without her, man is nothing"
I suppose its a sexist thing where you put the commas, but those little commas sure can change a text!
Regards
Glen
Glen

All that aside - "a woman, needs her man, as much as a fish, needs it's bicycle".

At least that is what my friends from the Isle* tell me! :D

Diana

* Lesbos (Greek: Λέσβος, Lesvos) Greek island located in the northeastern Aegean Sea.

[rick130]

Glen

All that aside - "a woman, needs her man, as much as a fish, needs it's bicycle".

At least that is what my friends from the Isle* tell me! :D

Diana

* Lesbos (Greek: Λέσβος, Lesvos) Greek island located in the northeastern Aegean Sea.

mere phallus envy :p

[DiscoStew]

I found the bicycle lock message frustrating because I had to read it slowly, but at least I only had to read it once.

But as others have mentioned, some of the posts on here need to be read several times to understand them. The lack of punctuation being the primary offender.

My challenge is making a post interesting enough to have anyone respond to it, the primary reason being my lack of knowledge of 4WDs.:)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

At least one of the moderators on this site would be happy if he could ban people for bad spelling and grammar.

Or so it seems. :):);)

Diana