New D3 bottle jack

[WhiteD3]

For those of you interested....I bought this jack online from Gasweld to replace the scissor jack. $97 delivered.

Specifications
*Capacity: 12 ton *Min height: 230mm *1st Stage: 110mm *2nd stage: 140mm *Screw ext: 80mm *Max height: 550mm *Weight: 12kg

https://ishop.gasweld.com.au/ishop/stock/item/535050

I'm in the process of getting a fitting made to lock the top of the jack into the chassis rail.

It's a big hooer but it easily lifts the car and fits neatly under the rear seat. I had a good look around but only found 1 other jack with the height required and that was a 20 ton that GarryC had purchased.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9371/pict0002gs8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://imageshack.us)
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3971/pict0011av0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Graeme]

Does it fit when the tyre is flat?

[101RRS]

Bugger I wish I knew Gasweld had them - I bought one this week for my 101 - max height I could get was 480mm for a reasonable price - same just under $100.

Mine just fits under the axles and lifts a wheel 2" off the ground - just enough - yours would have been better.

Garry

[WhiteD3]

Does it fit when the tyre is flat?


Good point. Maybe there's some sense in the scissor jack after all?

I doubt the bottle jack would fit with a flat and the car in normal road height mode. In extended mode, which is required when changing a tyre anyway, there's plenty of room. I still have the scissor jack as a back-up.

[WhiteD3]

Bugger I wish I knew Gasweld had them - I bought one this week for my 101 - max height I could get was 480mm for a reasonable price - same just under $100

Flog it on Ebay, you might get a decent price.

[PCH]

Find a rock, piece of wood etc... to drive the D3 onto to get the flat wheel up a bit higher to get the bottle jack under it.

Chris

[leeds]

That jack looks very similar to one I bought in the UK. It has a rubber bung in as a fill level. That rubber bung come out spilling jack oil everywhere. Also makes jack U/S.

Simple solution is to keep it in place with the use of a bit of gaffer tape. In my opinion it is better to keep these jacks upright to make fluid spillage less likely.

Regards


Brendan

[WhiteD3]

That jack looks very similar to one I bought in the UK. It has a rubber bung in as a fill level. That rubber bung come out spilling jack oil everywhere. Also makes jack U/S.

Simple solution is to keep it in place with the use of a bit of gaffer tape. In my opinion it is better to keep these jacks upright to make fluid spillage less likely.

Regards


Brendan


Thanks Brendan, I'll check that out.

[hodgo]

Check that the jack is ok to be stored in a laying position I have experenced problems in the past, laying them on their sides not only will / can, the oil leak out but the seal tends to dry out and them it wount work at all. The army has allways taught this in the care and use of CES.

Hodgo

[dcc49]

Had a need to use the jack that came with the car :mad: Graah - the wheel nut remover that serves as a handle for the jack is useless, it stripped the hole that goes over the flattened end of the 10mm rod well before the wheel was off the ground. So out came my trusty 6" adjustable spanner - The weight saving :confused:10mm rod started to twist and bend - it would have troble knocking the skin off of a rice pudding!!! Lucky I had a 22mm socket and a big hammer (to knock the socket onto the jack) and a bar to turn the socket. Got me out of trouble - in the middle of nowhere with no phone reception. Hope this note saves you some agro one day:wasntme:

David C

[garryc]

Had a need to use the jack that came with the car :mad: Graah - the wheel nut remover that serves as a handle for the jack is useless, it stripped the hole that goes over the flattened end of the 10mm rod well before the wheel was off the ground. So out came my trusty 6" adjustable spanner - The weight saving :confused:10mm rod started to twist and bend - it would have troble knocking the skin off of a rice pudding!!! Lucky I had a 22mm socket and a big hammer (to knock the socket onto the jack) and a bar to turn the socket. Got me out of trouble - in the middle of nowhere with no phone reception. Hope this note saves you some agro one day:wasntme:

David C
Get yourself a hydraulic jack as mentioned and also get an extendable socket handle. I got one for about $15 and it came with two double ended sockets of 18/20 21/23mm. The D3 nuts are 22mm and the 23mm works OK but I must buy a 22mm socket. Don't rely on the scissor jack or wheel nut spanner. On a 4wd magazine test they split the wheel nut spanner :o enough said. regards

[WhiteD3]

After my wheel nut incident I also bought a 22mm socket and 450mm wrench to suit.

[WhiteD3]

I got a couple of attachments made that sit on top of the jack head to lock the jack into the chassis rail. Work a treat.

But in testing these I noticed again a disturbing (to me anyway) thing that happens. As the car is raised the jack tilts towards the opposite side of the car. You can see it in the picture below where the base of the jack is off the ground. The leaning to the right is just my bad photography:angel:

I'm not an engineer but I assume this has to do with the height of the car when jacked up, which in turn means the car is levered over to the side opposite that being jacked.

I assume this is normal but it just looks weird.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[300+]

That is a problem with jacks and is why trolley jacks have wheels. As you lift one part of the car it rotates slightly so the part of the chassis you are jacking on will move away from you slightly. Then you get more weight transfer to create a sideways load on the tires and before you know it there is enough movement to do this.

I have seen some jacks have a slightly curved base so that they start off with half the foot on the ground then rock to have the other half on the ground at full height.

This is one of the reasons you don't get under a car supported by a jack.

Something I read about the D3 is that you have to use the supplied wheel chocks when jacking as this greatly reduces the movement. Having said that, I would expect the movement in your pic as a best cast. On anything other than hard concrete the foot will sink slightly and this will be less visible.

Cheers, Steve

[Corgie Carrier]

I got a couple of attachments made that sit on top of the jack head to lock the jack into the chassis rail. Work a treat.

But in testing these I noticed again a disturbing (to me anyway) thing that happens. As the car is raised the jack tilts towards the opposite side of the car. You can see it in the picture below where the base of the jack is off the ground. The leaning to the right is just my bad photography:angel:

I'm not an engineer but I assume this has to do with the height of the car when jacked up, which in turn means the car is levered over to the side opposite that being jacked.

I assume this is normal but it just looks weird.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8895/pict0004bu9.jpg

All you have to do is push the jack in about an inch before you start jacking and when it is up it will sit flat.

[Goose]

Get yourself a hydraulic jack as mentioned and also get an extendable socket handle. I got one for about $15 and it came with two double ended sockets of 18/20 21/23mm. The D3 nuts are 22mm and the 23mm works OK but I must buy a 22mm socket. Don't rely on the scissor jack or wheel nut spanner. On a 4wd magazine test they split the wheel nut spanner :o enough said. regards

We also broke the wheel nut spanner. The pin used to attach the socket to the handle is counter sunk drilled at one end so the pin can be pressed into place. Unfortunately they drilled the hole too deep and it shore through when I leaned on it (no pipe used, I promise!!). Never broken a nut spanner in my life, but it is kind of important if you get a flat.

[Jesse B]

I got a couple of attachments made that sit on top of the jack head to lock the jack into the chassis rail. Work a treat.


Any chance of a pic of the attachments? Sounds like an excellent idea. I'm also interested in the discussion about whether this unit will suffer if stored horizontal - I can remember my old man going ape at me for leaving a bottle jack flat out on the floor of the farm workshop several decades ago - he found it swimming in a small lake of oil... :eek:

I guess the issue of fit beneath the vehicle when down on a flat could be made slightly more dubious when adding a jacking plate for stability, too. Having had one vehicle drop off a jack way back when much younger, due to soil giving way unevenly under the load, I am hesitant to not use a plate under a bottle jack base. This does mean you have to use Corgie Carrier's tip about pushing the base slightly away from you to counter-act the inevitable lean, coz you can't rely on the base pushing down into the dirt to even things up.

D4 wheel nuts are also 22 mm, and you need a short extension to get hold of them comfortably with a socket.

[WhiteD3]

Any chance of a pic of the attachments? Sounds like an excellent idea. I'm also interested in the discussion about whether this unit will suffer if stored horizontal - I can remember my old man going ape at me for leaving a bottle jack flat out on the floor of the farm workshop several decades ago - he found it swimming in a small lake of oil... :eek:

I guess the issue of fit beneath the vehicle when down on a flat could be made slightly more dubious when adding a jacking plate for stability, too. Having had one vehicle drop off a jack way back when much younger, due to soil giving way unevenly under the load, I am hesitant to not use a plate under a bottle jack base. This does mean you have to use Corgie Carrier's tip about pushing the base slightly away from you to counter-act the inevitable lean, coz you can't rely on the base pushing down into the dirt to even things up.

D4 wheel nuts are also 22 mm, and you need a short extension to get hold of them comfortably with a socket.

Jesse, the jack has been stored on its side in the car now for almost 2 years with no leaks. You could always put it in a plastic bag if concerned about leaks I suppose. I also carry a block of wood for a jacking plate.

Here's the attachment.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4310/img0217wq.jpg

If I was doing this again I'd look seriously at an exhaust jack for reasons of storage and uneven ground when jacking offroad.

[Jesse B]

T-riffic! Thanks for the pics, and the heads-up on jack storage. Re use of exhaust jack instead: I did wonder about this option, as it could be mighty handy in the event of burying the heavyweight beast in sand too (as per thread running parallel with this one!). But I have a hunch I've read someplace or another about not using one of these for wheel changes? Or have I crossed my wires somewhere along the way?

[WhiteD3]

T-riffic! Thanks for the pics, and the heads-up on jack storage. Re use of exhaust jack instead: I did wonder about this option, as it could be mighty handy in the event of burying the heavyweight beast in sand too (as per thread running parallel with this one!). But I have a hunch I've read someplace or another about not using one of these for wheel changes? Or have I crossed my wires somewhere along the way?

My one reservation re an exhaust jack is the jacking point. I say this in ignorance as I've never used one but the compressor is adjacent the rear jacking point under a plastic guard, the compressor itself is held in place by a diecast bracket. Would the wide top of the jacking bag exert pressure on this bracket?

Don't know.

[Dingmark Jim]

I made a jacking pin attachment for a hydraulic jack out of wood. Alas, it was burnt along with my stolen D3 so no photos. It was a 20mm x 40 x 40 piece of Jarrah. Drilled a 20mm dia hole about 1/2 way through the middle of the wood, then drilled a 6mm hole all the way through the wood, inserted a 6mm dia bolt into it (head end thereby recessed into the wood) and glued in the bolt. The jack was in contact with the bolt which inserted into the D3 frame, so the wood didn't compress.

Slightly OTT - I also painted the end of the jacking pin attachment and the 4 jacking points on the frame a discreet orange. This was to help reduce the chance of SWMBO, etc from jacking the compressor housing.

[WhiteD3]

This was to help reduce the chance of SWMBO, etc from jacking the compressor housing.


Been there, done that:angel:

[Jesse B]

Okay - so let's see if we can nail the detail of this: the book says to use off-road height for wheel change, so does anybody know what the minimum clearance from jacking point to ground is with a flat? This would establish the maximum minimum height of the bottle jack + jacking plate / block, if you get what I mean!

Then what is the minimum total lift required to get the beast up high enough to fit the spare? This would establish the minimum maximum lift of the jack (pretty cool how those words work, hey?:)).

I've been lookoing at a few options, but have concerns that some may require use of the screw out extension to get the lift - but that this would then mean the thing would be too tall to fit under the deflated jack point (with the screw thread up). May need to rely on the hydraulic lift component only. I have found a 6 tonner that is a little shy of White's baby - but may do the job, pending knowing the figures. I guess if push comes to shove I can go out and deflate a tyre etc etc - but that seems a bit OTT. So let's see if someone knows...

[WhiteD3]

Jesse,

I'm not about to go out and induce a flat :eek: so how about raising the car to offroad height, measure th distance from the chassis rail to the ground then deduct the tyre wall.

The problem is getting a 4t jack with a 430mm lift (from memory) that is small enough when down. Mine will do it, but as I said in this or another thread recently, I'd go for an exhaust jack next time.

[Dingmark Jim]

I carry a "dual purpose" block of hardwood about (by memory) 100m x 100m x 300m. The length was made to just fit under the D3 (and my soon-to-arrive D4:D) frame when at extended height. I used it to then attempt to lower the suspension to normal height, but the frame hits the wood block and the suspension raised up to emergency height. The block is also a good height for slowly driving a flat tyre up on, thereby raising the flat corner of the car by 100mm. This makes it easier to get the hydraulic jack started, and less jacking is required.

PS: I've guessed at the exact dimensions as the block was in my stolen and burned-out D3, and I don't yet have a D4 to make another one for.

[Jesse B]

I carry a "dual purpose" block of hardwood about (by memory) 100m x 100m x 300m. The length was made to just fit under the D3 (and my soon-to-arrive D4:D) frame when at extended height. I used it to then attempt to lower the suspension to normal height, but the frame hits the wood block and the suspension raised up to emergency height. The block is also a good height for slowly driving a flat tyre up on, thereby raising the flat corner of the car by 100mm. This makes it easier to get the hydraulic jack started, and less jacking is required.

Jim - you mean fit under the vehicle in off-road height, don't you? I thought the only way into extended was to apply the trick you refer to (lower onto a block / pretend grounding) - then it would go up to extended, from where you can then select emergency?

If this is the case, then the block would need to be about 280-290 mm, because I just measured from chassis rail to ground in off-road, and got 290 mm clearance (with tyres at road pressures). I imagine this height would increase once you go up into extended or emergency, by about 30-40 mm in each case.

Given that you're going to lose +/- 100 mm with a seriously flat tyre, there's no way any bottle jack I've seen advertised or in shops is going to fit underneath from off-road height - as the chassis to ground clearance would then be down to around 200 mm, and most bottle jacks are around 220/230 mm minimum height. Maybe they'd fit in extended or emergency, and with the drive-onto-the-block trick included then they'd go under - which then just leaves the question of how much actual lift is required to get the spare on okay?

The two-stage 12 tonner that WhiteD3 mentioned gives 250 mm lift (without the screw extension, which could not be used anyway, given the clearance issues) - but it is 230 mm min height, while another 12 tonner that I've found gives a bit less than that but is lower to start with (205 mm) which would help with getting the thing underneath. Sorry about the long post, and all the figures - but I reckon that before people go out and buy bottle jacks they should know what the issues might be with any particular model they choose. As yet it would seem none of us have found one that will do everything - fit under chassis from off-road height with a flat, and then lift enough to get the spare on. Not without blocks, or tricking the suspension upward anyway.:(

[WhiteD3]

Just to add to this debate, I did get caught out with the bottle jack once. Coming back from Rover Park last year I had a slow flat in the rear which, due to the air suspension self levelling, didn't notice until the D3 had had enough, dropped into limp mode and I pulled over.

Of course in this mode there is no way the bottle jack will fit. So I had to use the scissor jack. Luckily I was on flat bitumen at the time. But don't start me on having to unload the car to get to the spare wheel ratchet:mad:

FYI at the time I could not get the D3 back into normal mode, then offroad mode to change the tyre as normal. Although it sorted itself out once I changed the tyre, repacked the car, cursed the kids, LR and the world in general.

In hindsight, and after some comment from other D3ers here, I should have taken the key out, then tried again.

[300+]

My one reservation re an exhaust jack is the jacking point. I say this in ignorance as I've never used one but the compressor is adjacent the rear jacking point under a plastic guard, the compressor itself is held in place by a diecast bracket. Would the wide top of the jacking bag exert pressure on this bracket?

Don't know.

I use my exhaust jack in front of the compressor on the sill. It lifts front and rear wheels off the ground at the same time. That way there is no risk to the compressor.

Or make sure you only puncture the other side...

Cheers, Steve

[WhiteD3]

Or make sure you only puncture the other side...

Excellent............not

Steve, does the exhaust jack bag touch or distort the plastic panel covering the sill?

[300+]

It does touch it but the load is over a smooth and large area so I'm not worried about damage. I'm sure the cover would be bending a little if I watched closely enough. There is no visible damage after use.


Cheers, Steve

[Jesse B]

But hang on, guys - are you talking about using an exhaust jack for wheel changes? I thought that was a no-no? :confused:

[300+]

They aren't the most stable things in the world, but neither is the factory scissor jack.

You wouldn't find me under the vehicle with either jack.

I don't see a problem with it. Am I missing something?

Cheers, Steve

[Dingmark Jim]

Using the air jack for fixing a flat is more of a "scare-scare" than a "no-no":eek:. I've had to use the air bag twice when had a flat on sand. I do the following:

1. Remove the good spare and loosely tie a rope or strap around it. Then place the good spare tyre on its side (when in sand, outside down to protect the rim struts),
2. Do a really good job of chocking all other 3 wheels (or the D3 will just flop off the air-jack - very spectacular but sad), then use the air jack to lift the D3,
Slide the good spare tyre under the frame between the air-jack and the flat tyre (so if the bag suddenly deflates it lands on the tyre - probably damaging the tyre and rim but at least not causing the D3 to roll or land on me). Make sure that the rope/strap handle is outwards for pulling the tyre out later,
3. Take the flat tyre off, install another rope/strap on the flat tyre, then slide it under the frame next to the good spare tyre (rope/strap on outside), then
4. Slide out the spare tyre using the rope/strap and install the spare on the axle,
5. Slide out the flat tyre using the rope/strap,
6. Deflate the air jack, and finally
7. Put the flat tyre where it belongs for transport.

By doing this, at no times are my hands or body ever under the D3 unless at least one wheel+tyre is under the frame to catch it should the air jack fail, and the D3 is also protected from rolling should the air jack deflate. It's also a good idea to have all other passengers stay out of and well away from the D3 while doing this.

[Jesse B]

Crikey! A well thought out process, indeed, but a bit of a saga too it seems. Good to know about if a wheel change is needed on soft sand (so long as one is packing an air jack, that is!), but I'm now wondering which is the lesser drama for your bog-standard flat on the side of the road situation? Bottle jacks appear to have their issues with size and lift - unless someone has found the magic unit that is squat enough to fit yet lifts high enough to get the replacement wheel on. And the air jack- well, I'm still of the mind that I've read plenty of places that it's a bit dodgy (well, potentially dodgy anyway) - and DMJ's procedure seems to underline that. Anyone found a really small fold-up trolley jack? :unsure:

[300+]

If you drop a car on yourself the fire brigade will likely use an compressor powered exhaust jack to lift it up again.

The Jag XJ220 came with an air bag jack for changing the spare.

They are like any "tool" which lifts 2.5t a foot in a the air. Observe and understand the risks and you'll be fine.

My jack does not deflate that quickly when you open the valve and the material is fibre reinforced so that damage does not result in a pop. It is under quite low pressure after all.

I've looked at it and decided that air jacks are the least bad of the options.

Cheers, Steve

[CaverD3]

Air bag is the best option for the D3. They are more versatile as they can be used on all surfaces. They are much more stable than the one LR supply.
I carry a single axle stand with the air jack when ever I go on a trip in case I need to get under the vehicle. Other wise for on road I will use the scissor jack or call LRA.

[Jesse B]

Okay - so, does anyone want to nominate a decent air jack then, bearing in mind the likely dual uses of lifting the vehicle out of a bog once in a while and making the occasional wheel change when not on flat bitumen? I know this has probably been covered plenty of times elsewhere on the forum, but since we've weaved our way through bottle jacks and other options to get to this point it might be useful to bring some suggestions in here too.

[eddomak]

Sorry, I read this thread a while ago, and read it again just then, and can't find an easy summary for the Bottle Jack. What is the recommended minimum height, and what is the required maximum to clear the extended mode? Today at SuperCheap Auto I saw a Pro Lift 4000kg jack which has a minimum clearance of 204mm and a maximum of 391mm. Will this do the job?

[Jesse B]

I looked at this one as an option - figured the minimum height might just fit under chassis rail with a flat, but that the lift would be insufficient. As yet, I've not found one anywhere that appears to give the necessary combination of low minimum height with sufficient overall lift. :(

[Mal_W]

On my previous vehicle, (won't mention the brand on this forum), when faced with the same problem, I carried a small timber block of wood, chamfered at one end to form a ramp. When I got a flat tyre, and I had plenty of them, I drove the vehicle up onto the block which was about 100mm high and then was able to get the jack underneath easily. You then just jack enough to free the flat tyre, remove the wheel nuts and as the flat tyre comes off also remove the timber block. There is then enough clearance for the replacement inflated tyre.
Haven't needed to try it on the D3 yet, but don't see why it wouldn't work. This way you don't need as much scope on the jack.

Mal

[MartyJB]

This is a well know design floor with the standard issue bottle jack in 70 series Toyotas - the jack was too tall to fit under the vehicle when you had a flat!
I worked on mine sites with these vehicles and when I first started I noticed this block of wood carried in all vehicles. I asked what it was for and was simply told you'll need it if you get a flat. Before long I got a flat and when you're out in the middle of no where it didn't take long to work out the issue and the solution.

[Mal_W]

This is a well know design flaw with the standard issue bottle jack in 70 series Toyotas - the jack was too tall to fit under the vehicle when you had a flat!

Picked it in one! (Although I always carried a bottle jack as well as the screw one provided.)

Mal

[schmoogene]

just come across a catalogue from Darwin Bolt Supplies and there are a few Kincrome bottle jacks that may do the job.

Part No - Capacity (kg) - closed height(mm) [to] open height(mm), weight (kg)
K12052 - 6000 - 200 to 395, 5.2
K12053 - 8000 - 200 to 400, 6.0
K12054 - 10000 - 205 to 400, 6.1kg
K12055 - 12000 - 219 to 414, 7.2kg

the K12053 is $80 and the K12054 is $90.

I was thinking the K12053, 8t, 200 to 400mm would be ok. should i buy this and give it a go?

[Jesse B]

I was thinking the K12053, 8t, 200 to 400mm would be ok. should i buy this and give it a go?

Sounds like it would go mighty close to fitting under the chassis rail with a flat (around 200 mm by my measurements, without driving onto a block) and the 200 mm lift may be enough to do the job - but just check before you buy check that this lift is all hydraulic, ie that it doesn't include the threaded 'extension' that so many jacks have these days.

And if you do buy it, and have need to use it in anger - let us know how you go!

[Graeme]

And if you do buy it, and have need to use it in anger - let us know how you go!
No, no, if you buy it, try it and tell us the news, good or bad!

[bbyer]

I have about three wheel removal techniques depending upon the situation. All three however require that I chock two of the other wheels.

The chock procedure is a good idea as when I go to remove the chocks, I find that either the chock on the front side of the tyre or the rear side is now kind of jamed in and has to be kicked out. This is usually true of both pair so the 3 does try to roll.

Assuming a hard dry surface and a front tyre to be removed, with the 6 ton bottle jack under the frame and the suspension at regular height, I will jack up on the frame a couple of inches just to take the weight off the wheel - and yes, the bottle jack base will start to rotate. Per a previous post suggestion, I will start to push the jack base inwards in the future.)

With the one ton baby bottle jack, I then set it into a dimple that is on the underside of the lower wheel A frame and jack it such that the tyre rubber is about an inch off the surface. (Only about an inch of jacking is required). I then remove the wheel etc. I also carry a wood block that I will sometimes put under the 6 ton jack depending upon ground conditions.

This bottle jack technique does not work very well for the rear however. I do it if I have to, but there is not really a dimple in the "correct" place, so I am never happy when refitting a rear wheel. As such, I am in the process of purchasing an exhaust air bag jack as that is I think about the only safe field jack for the rear tyres that there is.

At home, I have a 3 ton trolley jack and adapter that fits into the hole in the frame so that makes lifting the frame easy and safe. I still use the bottle jack under the wheel suspension A frame however, and independently lift the wheel as I like to have the tyre as close to the ground as possible so I do not have to lift the replacement very much - say an inch. I note that with the trolley jack, that the little wheels rotate and the trolley moves a bit as jacking height increases. That is why I use the two pair of wheel chocks all the time.

[WhiteD3]

The D3 scissor jack is useless but it does have two fold away chocks with it which I always use.