101 - Brake Proportioning Valve

[101RRS]

I have been rebuilding the brakes on my 101. I am at the stage of trying to bleed the system - front brakes bleed up OK but the rears were not working as no fluid was getting to the rear wheel cylinders.

Fluid was getting to the rear Load Brake Approprtioning valve but not past it. On checking it was seized in the no load position and not letting fluid through. On disassembling and cleaning it started to work - little fluid in the no load positon and full fluid flow on the loaded position - as it should be.

However, cleaning it out has now caused it too leak as there was some pitting in the actuation shaft - I now need a new valve.

It is Lr part number 599201.

Does anyone know where I might get one of these in Australia. I have checked the Four Wheel Drives catalogue but there does not seem to be an listing for these for any sort of Landies so may be unique to 101s.

Any help would be appreciated.

In the interim I will bypass the valve so that I can at least get the brakes working.

Thanks

Garry

[fraser130]

There used to be a few places that would do stainless steel liners in brake components, could that be an option?

Fraser

[101RRS]

Thanks - there does not seem to be a rebuild kit for these - plus in this case it is the actuating shaft rather than the bore that is pitted - maybe a small speedie sleeve would work.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thanks - there does not seem to be a rebuild kit for these - plus in this case it is the actuating shaft rather than the bore that is pitted - maybe a small speedie sleeve would work.
Garry

I don't know about the apportioning valve, but I had both the piston and cylinder re-sleeved on my 80" master cylinder. I took the whole assembly to my local "Brake Pro" agent who sent it away. I am sure your local brake service could do the same for you.

Diana

[101RRS]

Garry

I don't know about the apportioning valve, but I had both the piston and cylinder re-sleeved on my 80" master cylinder. I took the whole assembly to my local "Brake Pro" agent who sent it away. I am sure your local brake service could do the same for you.

Diana

Thanks Diana - already had that done to the master cylinder - the parts manual does not list parts for this valve - nor is it "exploded" in the repair/service manual unlike the master cylinder, pressure switch or wheel cylinders. The service manual goes to great length to explain how to set it up but nothing on its repair.

It would seem not to be a serviceable unit even though it is constructed like a small master cylinder.

The brake people do not have any listings for kits even if I could get the piston sleeved. They also indicated that it appears to not be a serviceable unit.

Would love to be proved wrong though.:)

[fraser130]

Gary, are you heading to Cooma?
If you are could you bring it along with you, I have a mate who is a VERY good specialist machinist, perhaps I could take some pictures of it and ask him for his thoughts?
Fraser

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...It would seem not to be a serviceable unit even though it is constructed like a small master cylinder.

The brake people do not have any listings for kits even if I could get the piston sleeved. They also indicated that it appears to not be a serviceable unit.

Would love to be proved wrong though.:)
I know nothing about the valve - but OMG I just looked it up on the P.A. Blanchard Site https://secure.pablanchard.co.uk/product.asp?productID=33931 $489.00 before you ship it would be frightening. :BigCry:

Understanding that the valve is apportioned to the loading (a good thing for my S2B also) however what about removing it and using non apportioned valve from a Range Rover or similar? Otherwise is there similar device on trucks maybe you could hybridise one???

Do you know Allan Harding from the LRC of the ACT? He may be able to do a similar restoration for you!

Diana

[lro11]

Hi Gary, I bought a new one from the UK original lucas part try DUNSFOLD (http://www.dunsfold.com/) or John Craddock Ltd - Specialists in Land Rover Parts and Spares (http://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/index.asp)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Gary, I bought a new one from the UK original lucas part try DUNSFOLD (http://www.dunsfold.com/) or John Craddock Ltd - Specialists in Land Rover Parts and Spares (http://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/index.asp)
Craddock"s £180.00
P.A. Blanchard £225.00
Dunsfold not listed.

[lro11]

Craddock"s £180.00
I know ouch, I paid $60 for mine

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Garry

Is it only leaking around the shaft for the lever? I wonder if you could have an "O" ring or other seal machined into or added onto the shaft?

Diana

[101RRS]

Garry

Is it only leaking around the shaft for the lever? I wonder if you could have an "O" ring or other seal machined into or added onto the shaft?

Diana

Thanks to every one for your comments - hadn't checked overseas prices - OMG - a break system failure switch, which is just as complex is only $100 here.

I have removed the inards of the valve an put in a bolt with an unthreaded bit on it through the actuator hole with an o ring to seal it - so this has allowed me to sort the rest of the brakes - see my to be posted thread on the general tech section later.

The main issue is that the rear brakes no get full pressure - will be interesting on a wet road in an emergency situation. (but will get sorted later).

In the interim I need to investigate
a.what cars like the rear drumed countys, and the stage 1s used to apportion pressure to the rear brakes

b. getting a new valve - cheaper than listed

c. getting my actuator shaft machined and a sleeve put on it and raiding the brake people's parts bin for internal seals The seal of concern should be common to other brake components - is a flat thick rubber washer so an o ring will not work.

Thanks for all the help - if someone identifies a cheap source for the valve - please let me know.

I was hoping to get the truck registered in time for Cooma but is not likely now:(.

Cheers

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I was hoping to get the truck registered in time for Cooma but is not likely now:(.

Cheers

Garry
Garry

After doing a Google search, I would be fronting up at a Brake Service tomorrow. ( Check the second paragraph after the heading "Safety" Mitsubishi Triton – Car Reviews, News & Advice – carsales.com.au - Carsales Editorial (http://editorial.carsales.com.au/print.aspx?TabID=801391&R=2665155&ModID=1602845) If they are used on Tritons, I bet they are used on Mitsubishi Canters and Toyota Dynas, Daihatsu Deltas, Isuzus etc.

Otherwise just put in a union to remove the apportioning valve altogether and carry a few bags of sand to add some weight over the rear axle. You can then sort out the valve after Cooma.

Diana

[101RRS]

Otherwise just put in a union to remove the apportioning valve altogether and carry a few bags of sand to add some weight over the rear axle. You can then sort out the valve after Cooma.

Diana

Thats effectively what I have done - but wasted a week trying to sort why the rear brakes would not bleed. Will have this sorted tomorrow. http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/53027-brake-shoes.html

If I hadn't been trying to sort the brake bleeding issue I would never have touched the valve - it was seized in the light loaded position. Looking at the design of it, I would anticipate most 101s have seized valves.

Do the series 2 Fc's have something similar - if not, how well do they brake when unloaded.

Cheers

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...Do the series 2 Fc's have something similar - if not, how well do they brake when unloaded.

Cheers
Garry
It's a bu**@R about the week lost. Are the 101 shoes the same as the other LR 11 X 3" shoes?

No the S2Bs dont have the apportioning valve. A friend in NZ has just registered his S2a F/C with a 3.5 Rover V8 and LT95 and it was having problems with locking up rear wheels so was knocked back. He was made to fit an apportioning valve before they would pass the vehicle.

Diana

[101RRS]

Same shoes - fitting a v8 to a FC would have made the front lighter so the rear brakes should not have been locking up - sounds like the rego nazis at work.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Absolutely the Rego Nazis at work :nazilock:, however Neil was over a barrel, there was no evidence that the vehicle had been certified with the V8 (which was in it before he bought it) and the vehicle did lock up it's rear wheels as they all do.

With the seating position over the front wheels and a significant extension in front of the wheels they have a habit of lifting the rear wheels.

It is the reason that I am happy my tray back is made out of steel to provide some weight when empty. I may look into an apportioning valve myself.

Diana

[fraser130]

Garry, something I owned in the past had one too, but I can't remember what it was, it may have been a Transit van. I think morris minis may have had them too??? I'll keep thinking about it and see if I remember.

Fraser

[101RRS]

Thanks Fraser - the proportioning side of the valve is fine - it is the rod that goes into the housing that is pitted so letting fluid leak out. If I had a lathe I could turn it down and sleeve it. I will most likely get a machinist to do it for me - I will just have to find a suitable seal.

I am not sure how the valves in other cars work - this one has a spring lever off the rear diff that pushes in the actuator as the rear of the car settles down with increased load. When empty there is virtually no fluid going to the rear brakes.

Cheers

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thanks Fraser - the proportioning side of the valve is fine - it is the rod that goes into the housing that is pitted so letting fluid leak out. If I had a lathe I could turn it down and sleeve it. I will most likely get a machinist to do it for me - I will just have to find a suitable seal.

I am not sure how the valves in other cars work - this one has a spring lever off the rear diff that pushes in the actuator as the rear of the car settles down with increased load. When empty there is virtually no fluid going to the rear brakes.

Cheers

Garry
Garry - that is why you need to talk to Allan Harding - WileE knows him and may be able to introduce you.

Diana

[Sprint]

most utes have form of proportioning valve......

[fraser130]

Yes i recon that's the type I've seen, thats pretty much how they work, then as the weight transfers forward, the rear lifts and they cut off the braking to the rear to help prevent lock-ups.

I was just thinking if it's the same as the Transit one as I think Transits were imported from the UK(could be an off the shelf Girlock or some other brand), maybe Ford sell them at a different price.....

[101RRS]

Garry - that is why you need to talk to Allan Harding - WileE knows him and may be able to introduce you.

Diana

I don't know him - but I will be able to reach him through the LRC - though I am not a member.

As I have now bypassed it I have the time to consider some options - my preference is to fix what I have rather than butcher the mountings to fit something else.

Garry

[101 Ron]

Hi Garry.
I have never had to have my valve apart..
What normally happens with this sort of stuff if the shaft is U/S is to get a new one made from stainless steel.
Take it to a machinist you truss and dont tell them what it is for as they may not want to do it if it is for brakes.
That valve will not match up directly with any thing else on the road as the the shear size of it is much bigger.
Toyota Hi Ace vans use a valve with similar linkage and should be cheap from the wreakers.
The biggest problem will be mounting and the different pipe threads requiring the fittings on the 101 to be changed.
The Hi Ace has similar Axle travel of the 101.
I personally would try and get new parts turned in stainless if possible.

[101RRS]

Hi Garry.
I have never had to have my valve apart..
What normally happens with this sort of stuff if the shaft is U/S is to get a new one made from stainless steel.
Take it to a machinist you truss and dont tell them what it is for as they may not want to do it if it is for brakes.
That valve will not match up directly with any thing else on the road as the the shear size of it is much bigger.
Toyota Hi Ace vans use a valve with similar linkage and should be cheap from the wreakers.
The biggest problem will be mounting and the different pipe threads requiring the fittings on the 101 to be changed.
The Hi Ace has similar Axle travel of the 101.
I personally would try and get new parts turned in stainless if possible.

Thanks Ron - I agree but it is good to have options. I bet yours is seized ;). They are of a poor design with respect to protecting the bits ouside of the main housing from corrosion. The shaft gets pitted and when it moves inside the housing when loaded chews out the seal.

I will try to get the pitted bit resleeved or a new shaft made.

Cherrs

Garry

[bobslandies]

Hi Garry,

You might try enquiring availability from this supplier, one of the largest stockists of obsolete & classic brake parts in the UK.:
Classic Car Parts - PowerTrack Ltd - Mail Order Supplier of Lockheed and Girling Brake and Clutch Components For British Car and Commercial 1935 - 1980 (http://www.powertrackbrakes.co.uk/)

There used to be a seller on eBay AU (think they were in S.A.) who had a huge amount of 101 parts, probably acquired at surplus auction. Had a look for them but can't find them - all the 101 stuff was in their store. Someone on here should know them, they were regularly advertising 101 parts. I don't think they would have been mobbed by buyers.

Bob

[101RRS]

Thanks Bob - I have sent the UK supplier an e-mail - it will be interesting to see their costs.

Cheers

Garry

[101 Ron]

Hi Garry......just checked my valve and your right.
I cannot get the piston to move.
The boot is intact.....but the piston doesnt move.
The spring coil linkage is doing all the moving instead.
There is a bit of play in the shaft which holds the spring coil linkage.
I know I can bleed the rear brakes on mine as I replaced the brake fluid with silicon fluid a while back.
I wonder If my brakes will work better if I get it working, as they are fairly hard pedal wise..........I had put this down to series three type brakes working on big wheels and tyres.
Keep us us informed Garry as I may have to go through the same excercise.
Regards Ron

[101RRS]

Hi Garry......just checked my valve and your right.
I cannot get the piston to move.
The boot is intact.....but the piston doesnt move.
The spring coil linkage is doing all the moving instead.
There is a bit of play in the shaft which holds the spring coil linkage.
I know I can bleed the rear brakes on mine as I replaced the brake fluid with silicon fluid a while back.
I wonder If my brakes will work better if I get it working, as they are fairly hard pedal wise..........I had put this down to series three type brakes working on big wheels and tyres.
Keep us us informed Garry as I may have to go through the same excercise.
Regards Ron

Hey Ron,

When I bench tested the valve, very little fluid (virtually none) passes through the valve in the light load position but in the heavy load position there was no restriction and there was full fluid flow.

I suspect that on the road, when unloaded, the rear brakes basically provide minimal braking (none ?) and it is the fronts that do most of the work. When loaded up the valve does its thing and the rear brakes kick in. When loaded and braking heavily with weight transfer to the front - I think this is where the valve comes into its own. There is only about .5cm movement of the piston between fully loaded and unloaded.

Given that these are basically not rebuildable (though I will try) and their cost - somewhere around $350 - $400, I would probably not try pulling yours apart - I know it will start leaking. I would try removing the rubber boot and with pilers pull the piston out as far as it goes and clean the exposed bit as best you can and and grease with brake fluid compatible grease and reinstal the boot. This piston needs to be included in the servicing schedule - if dirt was removed every 6 months or 10000 k it would work all the time.

My work around has failed - I finally got pressure in my brakes this afternoon but I then blew the o rings in my workaround. I removed the inards of the valve and replaced the piston this a bolt with 0 rings to seal it but they were not up too it. I am getting a joiner made tomorrow to bypass it all together - at least I will have brakes and I will sort the valve later.

As everyone has said - bleeding a 101 is a real PITA. I am moving on to other things for a while - hey today I found out my CDL does actually work - no light indications but I know it locks :). The only indicator lights that work is the ignition - I haven't got to the electrics yet.

Garry

[101 Ron]

Garry try quad rings as they are a straight swap for O rings........... quad rings are a bit harder to find.

[101RRS]

Today I spent some time looking at options for the valve. The piston is too small to be sleeved. Machinists were not keen on turning up an new one and when pushed said they would want about $200 and would not make any guarantees - I think they just did not want the work - I tried two machinists and both were the same. I went to a Toyo dealer and looked at options there - as advised they do have similar valves including for the new 78 series - new cost is $280.

I will check wreckers for prices as well - and for transit van ones as well.

So it looks that I will jury rig the rear brakes so they work without the valve and sort it later - based on new prices - I might as well pay the extra and buy the landie product - what a rip off.

The only places that I have been able to find that supply are as advised - Craddocks and P.A Blanchard - all others have drawn a blank.

Any other suggested suppliers??

Thanks

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I went to a Toyo dealer and looked at options there - as advised they do have similar valves including for the new 78 series - new cost is $280.

So it looks that I will jury rig the rear brakes so they work without the valve and sort it later - based on new prices - I might as well pay the extra and buy the landie product - what a rip off.

The only places that I have been able to find that supply are as advised - Craddocks and P.A Blanchard - all others have drawn a blank.

Any other suggested suppliers??

Thanks

Garry
Garry

Do they have a self service wreckers in Canberra? It may be worthwhile doing a wander through one, as we know that there are approtioning valves on Mitsubishi Tritons as well. As I suggested, I bet they are on the myriad of small 2 and 3 tonner trucks. Ford Transit D100 have them also.

Diana

[101RRS]

Garry

Do they have a self service wreckers in Canberra? It may be worthwhile doing a wander through one, as we know that there are approtioning valves on Mitsubishi Tritons as well. As I suggested, I bet they are on the myriad of small 2 and 3 tonner trucks. Ford Transit D100 have them also.

Diana

I might take a wander tomorrow.

Garry

[cooee]

hi garry cool:)
i might be able to help you i joined 101 club in england
they have great source of supply to get parts i give yoy ph number of
darren parsons 0011442380368631 give him a ring as he has couple of 101 and has great wealth of knowagle and has been great help to me
best time to catch him early in evening
hope this is of some help
cheers cooee:D

[101RRS]

Thanks Cooee,

I am not a member but might chase it up.

Garry

[101RRS]

After chasinf down a number of leads I drew a blank on obtaining a valve locally - the only option was to pay 180+ pounds and bring one in from the UK.

I looked under a new landscruiser traytop as it has a similar system and valve. Their valves are $270 at the stealer or $200 on ebay.

I got one from wrecker for $45 and only required two new holes to be drilled into the landy mounting bracket for it to fit. I also had to change brake pipe connectors and will have to make up some sort of dirt cap.

So after weeks of mucking around for a couple of weeks I sort of have brakes - there is pressure but still some air in the system. I will let the brake people sort that out but at least I have some brakes.

I have statically set up the valve so that it is closed in the unloaded position (as the landy one is) and after the truck is running properly will get out on some dirt with a few bags of sand to weigh the back down and set it up correctly.

Thanks to everyone who offered their advice, I appreciate it.

Garry

[stuee]

Rather than pull up the drum brake thread again I thought I'd pull this one up as its more suited. I drove around yesterday trying to find a landcruiser valve but all the Perth wreckers appear to be selling to miners as I can get a oem off ebay for cheaper and a genuine brand new for not much more.

I had a look for a replacement original valve and last I saw was John Craddock at 198 quid but then I checked Able Engineering which has slowly been getting more items added to the website and they have a new valve for a more respectable price but what was of more interest was the replacement rod they now sell:
101 Land Rover App Valve Push Rod (http://shop.101parts.co.uk/index.php?id_product=184&controller=product)

I've asked for a quote to get one to Aus with some other bits and pieces as the online store seems to only cover UK and parts of Europe. Ill post up how I go.

[Sitec]

Has AJ got any stock? Also, don't forget, any decent van will have one.. Merc Sprinter, Transit, Iveco Daily etc..