winch operation

[Aaron]

Ill keep this short and sweet.

Scenario.

Stuck on a hill, want to hand winch up the hill in the direction of travel.

alone in the bush, no one in the vehicle.

While winching, do I select first gear to stop the vehicle rollingback incase of failure?

[leeds]

Simple answer, chocks/boulders at rear of wheels will prevent it slipping.

Move chocks up hill during rest breaks which you will need if hand winching.

Leaving vehicle in gear will make it harder to move vehicle. Try pushing vehicle with gear in neutral and also with it in 1st gear, low box


Regards


Brendan

[Aaron]

Thanks :)

[isuzurover]

Simple answer, chocks/boulders at rear of wheels will prevent it slipping.

Move chocks up hill during rest breaks which you will need if hand winching.

Leaving vehicle in gear will make it harder to move vehicle. Try pushing vehicle with gear in neutral and also with it in 1st gear, low box


Regards


Brendan

Or simply leave the vehicle in gear until you have taken up the strain with the winch, and put it back in gear when repositioning the winch.

[Bushie]

Leaving vehicle in gear will make it harder to move vehicle. Try pushing vehicle with gear in neutral and also with it in 1st gear, low box


Regards


Brendan

I certainly agree with that, after hand winching a Holden Drover (remember them) uphill but not realising the driver had it in gear all the way up. :twisted::twisted:

(New years day 1990? - Remember that one Numpty)


Martyn

[Tusker]

And I'd put in reverse too. Some engines don't like a jolt backwards e.g. some with chain driven timing gear usually have a slack side & a taut side. Move the crank backwards effectively takes up the slack on the wrong side i.e. crank has moved, cam hasn't.. Valves might meet pistons.

In extreme cases oil pump might pick up air too.

Regards
Max P

[Redback]

Ill keep this short and sweet.

Scenario.

Stuck on a hill, want to hand winch up the hill in the direction of travel.

alone in the bush, no one in the vehicle.

While winching, do I select first gear to stop the vehicle rollingback incase of failure?

Me personnally and especially being alone, i'd go back down the hill and go back the way i came.

Baz.

[Aaron]

Me personnally and especially being alone, i'd go back down the hill and go back the way i came.

Baz.

Thats a good idea, except if going up the hill IS back the way you came :)

[fraser130]

Depanding on your chocks, and the terrain, and how good you are with rope, you may be able to tie them so they drag along a couple of inches behind the tyres?

Fraser

[leeds]

I have never used hand winches for recovering a vehicle.

OK I carry a hi lift jack and whilst I know the theory of winching with it, I have never experimented with it.

So what sort of hand winches are used in Australia for vehicle recovery?

Hi Lift jacks, tirfors or what?

How common is the use of hand winches for vehicle recovery in Australia?


Regards


Brendan

[Tusker]

Tirfors, & a myriad of Chinese copies.

Regards
Max P

[Landy110]

I have never used hand winches for recovering a vehicle.

OK I carry a hi lift jack and whilst I know the theory of winching with it, I have never experimented with it.

So what sort of hand winches are used in Australia for vehicle recovery?

Hi Lift jacks, tirfors or what?

How common is the use of hand winches for vehicle recovery in Australia?


Regards


Brendan
The idea of hand winching with a high lift is an absolute nightmare. By the time you take up all the slack you have to release tension and start again.
Most use a "Tirfor" If you don't know what that is it is a device about 2 feet long with a handle about 4 feet long that pulls am 11mm wire rope through a set of jaws. The wire rope is about 20metres long.
It is hard work and as I found out the only time I've ever used mine, it doesn't matter how lightly the vehicle is stuck, use a snatch block to halve the effort.
Steve.

[Redback]

Thats a good idea, except if going up the hill IS back the way you came :)

Well if going up, yes down is the way you came, unless you've found another way of doing things.

Your alone on a hill that you want to winch up, it would be dangerous operating a handwinch alone, as knowone has control of the car while your outside winching, only takes a fraction of a second for things to go pear shaped.

But as i said, i personnally would go down the hill and not risk getting further in the $h1t.

Baz.

[Tank]

Thats a good idea, except if going up the hill IS back the way you came :)
In the old horse and cart days when travelling up long steep hills the carts/drays used to have a log about 300mm dia. and the full width of the cart dragging along on 2 chains just behind the wheels, when the horses needed a rest they would stop and the cart wheels would roll back a few inches and stop against the log, easy-peasy, Regards Frank.

[simonl8353]

In the old horse and cart days when travelling up long steep hills the carts/drays used to have a log about 300mm dia. and the full width of the cart dragging along on 2 chains just behind the wheels, when the horses needed a rest they would stop and the cart wheels would roll back a few inches and stop against the log, easy-peasy, Regards Frank.
In the ol' cart n 'orse days you could have used a "Cock Horse" as in the nursery rhyme "Ride a cock horse to old Banbury town".
A "Cock Horse" is an old carriage-driving term, referring to an extra harness horse employed to assist pulling a cart or carriage up a hill. The "Cock Horse" would be hitched up at he bottom of the hill and then unhitched at the top. It would then be ridden back down to the bottom of the hill to await its next customer. Banbury, UK is situated at the top of a moderately steep hill and the town's council made a "cock horse" available to help access to the town.

So is there a "Cock Horse" hanging around your Landy with about 9,000 LB pulling power?

Anyway, not wanting to hijack the thread, are you suggesting a scenario, or is your car actually stuck there, or is this something that recently happened? If you're stuck, I'm sure there's hundred of people on this site just itching to justify a drive on the basis of a recoving a fellow LR owner.

[Scallops]

In the ol' cart n 'orse days you could have used a "Cock Horse" as in the nursery rhyme "Ride a cock horse to old Banbury town".

I thought it was to Banbury Cross :angel:

[simonl8353]

Cross/Town....... what the! :p

just read original post, its a scenario, bugger, I'll unpack the landy. couldnt have done much anyway except bring the beer..:D

[BigJon]

Well if going up, yes down is the way you came, unless you've found another way of doing things.



What if you have gone down the hill already, then found the track impassable further along. You would then have to go up the hill to retrace your tracks. Hence going up the hill being back the way you came.

Simple really :p.

[Aaron]

Big Jon got it in one, and I have a particular hill fresh in my mind.


simonl8353 - Come back tomorrow night, I maybe stuck by then :) Interesting history though.

[Scallops]

Heya Aaron - I'm going to do some winch practice with my Tirfor over Easter - I have a spot next to my house where I can set up with different scenarios - blocks, straight pulls etc. If you're interested - PM me and come over and get involved. :)

[Aaron]

Heya Aaron - I'm going to do some winch practice with my Tirfor over Easter - I have a spot next to my house where I can set up with different scenarios - blocks, straight pulls etc. If you're interested - PM me and come over and get involved. :)

I would be interested, but every one wants to go out for lunch/dinner on easter weekend, so im sure ill be working.

Im about to hook mine up in my front yard now. Loose my winching virginity.

[Redback]

What if you have gone down the hill already, then found the track impassable further along. You would then have to go up the hill to retrace your tracks. Hence going up the hill being back the way you came.

Simple really :p.

OK, but your still going back the way you came when going down the hill, your just doing it again:p;)

Baz.

[Scallops]

Im about to hook mine up in my front yard now. Loose my winching virginity.

:D:D:D - I was going to do that - but realised I'd probably either pull the fence down or remove the verandah - and both options would have resulted in the relocation of my testicles. :eek: Hence the area next to house option. ;)

[Aaron]

Ive got big trees and slopes. Im going to set up car ramps on an already steepish slope, to see how hard it really is. Lots of bitching and moaning when it comes to hand winches :P

[Hymie]

How common is the use of hand winches for vehicle recovery in Australia?

Regards

Brendan

Usually only once if the operators smart!
Seriously, hand winching makes you a better driver in future.

[numpty]

I certainly agree with that, after hand winching a Holden Drover (remember them) uphill but not realising the driver had it in gear all the way up. :twisted::twisted:

(New years day 1990? - Remember that one Numpty)


Martyn

I remember.....boy I remember.:D

[paulthepilot_5]

:D:D:D - I was going to do that - but realised I'd probably either pull the fence down or remove the verandah - and both options would have resulted in the relocation of my testicles. :eek: Hence the area next to house option. ;)

The next option is to go to the local shoping center and try removing a few land cruisers from their parking spots :twisted:

[Tank]

Tirfor winches have shear pins in the shaft that the lever actuates, if you use certified SWL or WLL shackles and cables/straps sufficient to do the job, the first thing to let go will be the shear pins, not the jaws or any of the rigging. If you are worried, take someone with you, Regards Frank.

[Tank]

Ive got big trees and slopes. Im going to set up car ramps on an already steepish slope, to see how hard it really is. Lots of bitching and moaning when it comes to hand winches :P
Get a snatch block and attach it to the recovery point on the front, hook your Tirfor up to a tree and run the cable through the Tirfor, down to the snatch block and back up to the tirfors anchor point (the tree). That will halve the effort required and you are pulling to advantage, the car is moving in the same direction that the tirfor is pulling. if the tirfor cable is not long enough connect the snatch block to the car with a winch extension stap/cable/chain, Regards Frank. PS make sure the groove on the snatch block pulley wheel is the correct size for the diameter of the tirfor cable, too narrow will crush the cable and too wide and it will flatten the cable, this causes kinks and broken wires.

[Aaron]

Ive done playing with it now. I have a Big Haul 4.8t winch for those interested.

Im waiting for Photobucket to finish maintenance to upload the somewhat boring photos.

I didnt use any blocks as it was hardly a steep slope at all.

The effort was very minimal, and I cant imagine more sever conditions been that hard.

In all honesty, the only hard work was setting up the cable. 16mm wire rope isnt exactly string.

[Scallops]

Ive done playing with it now. I have a Big Haul 4.8t winch for those interested.

Im waiting for Photobucket to finish maintenance to upload the somewhat boring photos.

I didnt use any blocks as it was hardly a steep slope at all.

The effort was very minimal, and I cant imagine more sever conditions been that hard.

In all honesty, the only hard work was setting up the cable. 16mm wire rope isnt exactly string.

Yep - I don't reckon it's that much of a big deal either - half the mob who reckon it's Oh so hard break into a sweat when they fart! :D

I'd be interested to see your photos. :)

[leeds]

The idea of hand winching with a high lift is an absolute nightmare. By the time you take up all the slack you have to release tension and start again.
Most use a "Tirfor" If you don't know what that is it is a device about 2 feet long with a handle about 4 feet long that pulls am 11mm wire rope through a set of jaws. The wire rope is about 20metres long.
It is hard work and as I found out the only time I've ever used mine, it doesn't matter how lightly the vehicle is stuck, use a snatch block to halve the effort.
Steve.

Thanks Steve, in UK hand winches such as Tirfors are not commonly used.

My 110 is equipped with a front and rear Warn 9.5 winch and I carry a winch extension cable. Two snatch blocks are in the recovery kit as well. I believe in double lining in most situation even using electric winches as it halves the force on the cable and winch. This means that there is less chance of things being broken.

Regards


Brendan

[Aaron]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/03/454.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/06/1034.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/06/1035.jpg

pics!

Like I said, it was hardly a big test, but atleast I know how to use it tomorrow.

I found it easier to use just one handle, as two handle gave to much throw, which increased effort. More severe conditions, the big handle would help a lot.

[Aaron]

Reminder to self - cut hook off the cable before heading out tomorrow.

[solmanic]

Jeez - I hope no-one came racing in or out of your driveway while that was going on :D.


Reading this, methinks someone might be angling for a bullbar mounted electric winch for their birthday ;)

[solmanic]

Oh, and damn that's a good looking vehicle :D

[numpty]

Yep - I don't reckon it's that much of a big deal either - half the mob who reckon it's Oh so hard break into a sweat when they fart! :D

I'd be interested to see your photos. :)

Not a big deal!!!!:eek:

Try 4 hours winching a broken down vehicle over 1 sand dune, and this with 8 people to share the load. Was glad we had the hand winch though, as the vehicle would have been left there otherwise;).

Great things........but bl***y hard work.

[B92 8NW]

In my IIA I carry a huge heavy rope. One end is secured to the chassis rail/spring hanger and runs parallel to the winch line all the way to the same or a close by tree. If you wind the rope around the tree 4-5 times, it will hold the load (and unless the tree is able to rotate or is heavily lubricated for whatever reason, it won't move).

Every foot or so the cable comes in, I partially unwind the rope, pull the slack out and re wind it again.

The same I apply to my Disco which always has a snatch strap on board, but I've never had to do this with the Disco. I guess the snatch strap is rated so it would be wiser to use this, and can absorb a slight shock if the cable does break.

[sclarke]

And I'd put in reverse too. Some engines don't like a jolt backwards e.g. some with chain driven timing gear usually have a slack side & a taut side. Move the crank backwards effectively takes up the slack on the wrong side i.e. crank has moved, cam hasn't.. Valves might meet pistons.

In extreme cases oil pump might pick up air too.

Regards
Max P

WHAT??????????
How worn is your engine? Tollerances are not that close.......
Best you send that one to Myth busters.....:D:D:D

[Blknight.aus]

Ive seen this twice now not in a rover tho. It was on a timing belted modified preformance petrol engine with a very lumpy cam when it tried to turn over backwards the timing belt couldnt drive the cam backwards due to the agressive drop back of the lobe so the belt stretched and steped over a tooth or 2 and then when spun over the right way to get a restart, valve met piston.

[Aaron]

Jeez - I hope no-one came racing in or out of your driveway while that was going on :D.


Reading this, methinks someone might be angling for a bullbar mounted electric winch for their birthday ;)

Yes, twice... people tend to drive around a 16mm bar though :)

I think everyone would like an electric winch, but its something that has always been low down on my lists of wants... IE - Its not even low on my lists of needs.

[Tank]

Ive done playing with it now. I have a Big Haul 4.8t winch for those interested.

Im waiting for Photobucket to finish maintenance to upload the somewhat boring photos.

I didnt use any blocks as it was hardly a steep slope at all.

The effort was very minimal, and I cant imagine more sever conditions been that hard.

In all honesty, the only hard work was setting up the cable. 16mm wire rope isnt exactly string.
Most commonly bought snatch blocks will have too narrow a groove in the pulley wheel for 16mm (5/8") wire cable, you may have to go to a Rigging supplier to get the correct size snatch block for your wire rope, if so buy the largest diameter pulley as 16mm 7 strand (solid wire core) tirfor rope will not take kindly to being wound around the standard diameter snatch block pulley wheel

[Aaron]

Most commonly bought snatch blocks will have too narrow a groove in the pulley wheel for 16mm (5/8") wire cable, you may have to go to a Rigging supplier to get the correct size snatch block for your wire rope, if so buy the largest diameter pulley as 16mm 7 strand (solid wire core) tirfor rope will not take kindly to being wound around the standard diameter snatch block pulley wheel

Im glad your brought that up. Infact, I thought the same thing and looked at it this morning. Ive got a TJM Ox snatch block, Im not sure what size it is, but the 16mm doesnt look out of place to me (amateur). I was going to do a photo, but its all coiled up now, Ill do it tomorrow.

edit - So its the diameter, not the groove thats the problem?

[Tank]

Im glad your brought that up. Infact, I thought the same thing and looked at it this morning. Ive got a TJM Ox snatch block, Im not sure what size it is, but the 16mm doesnt look out of place to me (amateur). I was going to do a photo, but its all coiled up now, Ill do it tomorrow.

edit - So its the diameter, not the groove thats the problem?
You can use the standard diameter snatch blocks, but the sharper the radius the more damage done to the cable, when a cable changes direction over a pulley under load the inside (the part of the wire rope closest to the groove in the pulley wheel) part of the rope is trying to compress and the outside is trying to stretch, if you for instance tried to run a 16mm wire rope over a 2" dia. pulley under load you would probably damage it and make it unsafe to use, Don't forget that winch/crane and tirfor wire rope has a solid core, a 7th strand same as the six strands around the outside, it is designed not to crush on winch drums and tirfor jaws.
If the 16mm cable sits in the groove of your snatch block, with no gap under the centre and the cable not riding on the edges of the groove, then it should be alright, too wide a groove is not as bad with 7 strand rope as it will not pinch and possibly break wires in the outer strands, it's usually cheaper to buy quality rigging gear (shackles etc.) at a rigging supply place and they should be able to help with advice, Regards Frank.

[leeds]

Taking Tanks point a bit further. The important thing about ropes and bollards is the ratio of the two diameters, i,e D : d where D is the ratio of the bollard/snatch block and d is the diameter of the rope. The larger this diameter the better.

Used to test polymers for a living. One job was testing a solid monofilament that I had made which was about 2 mm in diameter. Tested around 50 mm bollards got one result. Tested around 150 mm bollards the apparent strength went up 10+%. The apparent increase in strength was solely due to diameter of test bollards.

Conversely if had used bollards smaller then 50 mm the apparent strength would have decreased.

Regards


Brendan

PS Are hand winches peferred in Australia over electric winches? Or is it a cost judgement that makes hand winches more common in Aus?

[Tusker]

snip



PS Are hand winches peferred in Australia over electric winches? Or is it a cost judgement that makes hand winches more common in Aus?

Tirfors are hard work up a slope or recovering in mud. PITA to set up & a PITA to use. And a PITA to store in the car if space is at a premium.

Basically you'll try everything else first before breaking out the Tirfor.

You see leccies used more often.. Hard to know how many have both.

Regards
Max P

[Redback]

This is a mate on the end of my Bighaul Handwinch near Jenolan, i can you they are hard work:o

http://www.4wdlinks.com.au/albums/bazzar/ahe.sized.jpg

I had slid sideways into a tree on a downhill and needed to be pulled sideways to get straight.

The strap on the front was to stop the front sliding downhill:(

http://www.4wdlinks.com.au/albums/bazzar/ahf.sized.jpg

They do work well though.

Baz.

[Tusker]

Baz, a good example of how versatile they can be.

A pure emergency alternative handwinch is a Jackmate coupled with a hi-lift.

Rescue 42, Inc.: JackMate® Lift Jack Accessory (http://www.rescue42.com/jm8000.php)

a few more pics

JackMate (http://www.izook.com/reviews/jackmate/jackmate.htm)

And hi-lift appear to have their own version

https://www.expeditionexchange.com/hilift/ (scroll down a bit)

the jackmate makes rigging the chain a hellavalot easier, just slide the jackmate up & down the shaft to suit.

I imported mine a couple of years ago, but Opposite Lock sell them now. Their site seems to be playing up atm though.

I've found the jackmate as versatile as advertised, including straightening a bent tie rod. If you carry a hi-lift, the jackmate doesn't take up much extra space at all. Needs a chain though for all situations.

Only disadvantage is that it makes a hi-lift even heavier to lug uphill.

Regards
Max P