The Senior Service

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Blame GarryCol and Lotsa Landies for this one;)

So, out of all our armed services,, its the Navy thats called The Senior Service.

Why?

Is it just a RN to RAN hand-me-down?
Is it a RN hand-me down to all Commonwealth Navy's?

Is it ALL Navy's around the world?

[hodgo]

The Navy has all ways thought that way one day they might realise where they are in the pecking order They work on the theory that they were the fist of our armed services


Hodgo Army

[RonMcGr]

The Navy has all ways thought that way one day they might realise where they are in the pecking order They work on the theory that they were the fist of our armed services


Hodgo Army

Spot on :D
RACT eh?
So was I.

[graceysdad]

The Navy has always been the service with the most pretige, they go first at Anzac Day, followed by the boys in blue RAAF and then the mud rollers ARMY, this is the way it will aways be I think, why the Prestige I dont know, probably the hundreds of years of tradition which would stem from the RN no doubt, the Navy is elite they dash around in nice big boats and where nice uniforms, look at the ceremonys when a ship calls on a town its named after and they excercise there right to enter said town under drums and flags and all the rest of the huff and puff, nothing wrong witha bit of tradition, after all the Army guys know they are the ones who do all the work

[RonMcGr]

NAVY News :: Features (http://www.defence.gov.au/news/NAVYNEWS/editions/4816_1/feature/feature05.htm)

Senior service right royal explanation


By LEUT Tom Lewis

A sure way of ensuring rage from Army colleagues is for a Navy member to start up a discussion as to the order of protocol for a march, or a display, or whatever - and insisting that Navy goes first, in that “the Navy is the Senior Service”.

But what is the background, and indeed the validity of this argument? The usual suggestion is that the Royal Navy is the oldest service in Britain’s history. There was a “standing Navy” in Tudor times, whereas the Army was an occasional thing, dating back from the “feudal levies”.

Indeed, if we examine the history of the British Navy, we can see that many historians trace it back to King Alfred’s time, when in 885AD he “...went out to sea in ships and fought against four ships’ companies of Danes.” A rationale for keeping naval forces on hand relates to the way armies and navies were used from their earliest times.

An army’s main tactics related to skills that could be kept up without the soldiers being in a permanent force: the use of bow and simple sword was a skill that an average rural inhabitant of Britain might be expected to keep for defence and for hunting. Thus the main body of troops did not need to be professional soldiers.

However, the handling of a ship at sea demanded more practice, and ships needed to be maintained and kept ready for use. Therefore, for example, the British in 1217 were able to put immediately to sea a force of 36 ships to deal with a French fleet threatening attack off Dover.

And so down the years the monarchs saw to it that a full-time force was maintained. A permanent army, by contrast, does not seem to be a feature of British history until the “New Model” force under Cromwell.

Indeed, as one Encyclopedia notes, there is indeed some seniority involved in the prefix “Royal” for the Navy: “The incorporation of the Royal Navy was in contrast to the land forces, which are descended from parliamentary forces and hence are not royal”. The bequeathing of traditions, customs, and ship battle honours from the RN to its daughter-service of the RAN means that the RAN has inherited the term “senior service” as well.

Indeed, the term is still in popular use, as the Australian Defence Force saw recently: “Defence Minister Robert Hill will congratulate the incoming Chief of Navy and says he looks forward to working closely with the new head of the ADF’s senior service.”

[Pedro_The_Swift]

"The bequeathing of traditions, customs, and ship battle honours from the RN to its daughter-service of the RAN means that the RAN has inherited the term “senior service” as well."

hmm ok,, so the Title is handed down,, but there are a few "daughters" around,,

anybody know if the Title went other places?

[abaddonxi]

I thought Senior Service was a brand of smokes.

Cheers
Simon

[Jamo]

The Navy has always been the service with the most pretige, they go first at Anzac Day, followed by the boys in blue RAAF and then the mud rollers ARMY,

Shouldn't be happening that way.:eek: Navy is senior, then army and then airforce. If the RAAF are parading second in the order of march at your ANZAC service then the protocol's not being followed.

[Hymie]

Let the Navy and Air Force go before the Army, all they are doing is escorting the real Fighting Service.
All the Diggers here know that battles can be influenced by Sea and Air power, but the only way to win a War is to control Real Estate. Kind of hard to do on a ship or in a 'plane.

[LR V8]

NAVY News :: Features (http://www.defence.gov.au/news/NAVYNEWS/editions/4816_1/feature/feature05.htm)

Senior service right royal explanation


By LEUT Tom Lewis

.....bla bla bla....

Well done Mr Lewis.... when in doubt, refer to something similar but in truth nothing to do with the question.... did he talk facts about Australia at all ???

Birthdays:

Army - 1st March 1901 *
RAN - 1st March 1901
RAAF - 31st March 1921

* note. Royal Australian Artillery was established 14th July 1899 by Queen Victoria.... so if you want to start talking lineage...

I just thought they were known as the senior service because of the age of their boats.... :eek:

Cheers,

Pete

[Bigbjorn]

A WWII Digger I once worked with reckoned the Blue Orchids had a hide marching when Anzac Day fell on a weekend. He claimed they never worked nights, weekends, or in inclement weather when they were needed in North Africa and New Guinea.

[abaddonxi]

Well done Mr Lewis.... when in doubt, refer to something similar but in truth nothing to do with the question.... did he talk facts about Australia at all ???

Birthdays:

Army - 1st March 1901 *
RAN - 1st March 1901
RAAF - 31st March 1921

* note. Royal Australian Artillery was established 14th July 1899 by Queen Victoria.... so if you want to start talking lineage...

I just thought they were known as the senior service because of the age of their boats.... :eek:

Cheers,

Pete

I don't know much of anything about this, but if my history serves me right, the first Australian military organisation were the marines that landed with Arthur Phillip and the First Fleet.

Cheers
Simon

[leeds]

From a UK perspective the Royal Navy is considered to be the Senior Service BUT they are not the oldest service!


That honour belongs to Customs and Excise. Lets face it taxation is an extremely ancient profession (Q, is taxation or prostitution the oldest profession?)

C & E have more powers then the police and can force entry into buildings without a search warrent. Only excuse they need is suspicion, which goes back to the very early days of smuggling/ship wrecking to avoid the kings duty. C & E also have the authority to order captains of RN ships to open fire at vessels at sea so that C & E can inspect them, even if the ships are in international waters.


RN is the senior service of the fighting services!

Regards


Brendan

[101RRS]

I don't know much of anything about this, but if my history serves me right, the first Australian military organisation were the marines that landed with Arthur Phillip and the First Fleet.

Cheers
Simon

Under the Command of the Navy - Captain Arthur Phillip RN

[abaddonxi]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/03/429.jpg

Bond, James Bond.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I don't know much of anything about this, but if my history serves me right, the first Australian military organisation were the marines that landed with Arthur Phillip and the First Fleet.

Cheers
Simon
Simon

I don't know if you are going to get an answer to your comment (apart from this) however the troops that landed with Capt. Arthur Phillip RN were Royal Marines, which was a British armed service.

Don't quote me on this but the first "Australian" (or Colonial) military unit was the New South Wales Rifle Volunteers in the 1850's. The other units were all British forces serving in Australia.

Diana

[numpty]

I don't know much of anything about this, but if my history serves me right, the first Australian military organisation were the marines that landed with Arthur Phillip and the First Fleet.

Cheers
Simon

But weren't they Royal Marines.(Poms) And Australia per se didn't exist then.

[abaddonxi]

Simon

I don't know if you are going to get an answer to your comment (apart from this) however the troops that landed with Capt. Arthur Phillip RN were Royal Marines, which was a British armed service.

Don't quote me on this but the first "Australian" (or Colonial) military unit was the New South Wales Rifle Volunteers in the 1850's. The other units were all British forces serving in Australia.

Diana

Somewhere in the middle. You'd think I would remember this stuff having spent the last four years on the First Fleet.

NSW Corps
New South Wales Corps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_Corps)


The New South Wales Corps (aka The Rum Corps) was formed in England in 1789 as permanent regiment to relieve the marines who had accompanied the First Fleet. The regiment, led by Major Francis Grose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Grose_%28Lieutenant-Governor%29), consisted of three companies and due to the remoteness and unpopularity of the posting they were composed of officers on half pay, troublemakers, soldiers paroled from military prisons and those with few prospects gambling to make a life for themselves in the new colony. The regiment began arriving as guards on the Second Fleet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Fleet) in 1790. Major Grose arrived in Sydney in 1792 to take command and assume role of Lieutenant-Governor of the colony. A fourth company was raised from those marines wishing to remain in NSW under Captain George Johnston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Johnston), who had been Governor Phillip’s aide-de-camp.

With pictures
The New South Wales (NSW) Corps aka "The Rum Corps" (http://www.militarybadges.info/brits/eras/02-nsw-corps.htm)

Cheers
Simon

[Lotz-A-Landies]

But weren't they Royal Marines.(Poms) And Australia per se didn't exist then.
Somewhere in the middle. You'd think I would remember this stuff having spent the last four years on the First Fleet. ...

... The New South Wales (NSW) Corps aka "The Rum Corps"

Cheers
Simon
All very confusing.

The New South Wales Corps, raised in England to serve in the colony of NSW, doesn't that make them a British Corps?

While NSW was a colony and didn't become part of a country "Australia" till 1901, wasn't the continent called Australia (from Terra-Australis)?

Which would then make the NSW Rifle Volunteers, formed by free settlers the first Australian military organisation?

All very confusing!

Any Early Australian Historians out there ???

Diana

[porgey]

Its not all roses you know , See how your guts are after steaming through a Typhoon and you cant sleep because you get pitched out of your hammock or bunk . Then you get called to action stations and have to stay below in a magazine or shell room and all you can smell is Cordite fumes & your mates spew "If thats racing around in boats " mate I joined the wrong Navy Cheers George ex RAN

[porgey]

Its not all roses you know , See how your guts are after steaming through a Typhoon and you cant sleep because you get pitched out of your hammock or bunk . Then you get called to action stations and have to stay below in a magazine or shell room for hours at a time and all you can smell is cordite fumes and your mates spew "If thats racing around in boats " mate I joined the wrong Navy Cheers George ex RAN

[dolphint]

Well done Mr Lewis.... when in doubt, refer to something similar but in truth nothing to do with the question.... did he talk facts about Australia at all ???

Birthdays:

Army - 1st March 1901 *
RAN - 1st March 1901
RAAF - 31st March 1921

* note. Royal Australian Artillery was established 14th July 1899 by Queen Victoria.... so if you want to start talking lineage...

I just thought they were known as the senior service because of the age of their boats.... :eek:

Cheers,

Pete

Well Done Pete, The RAA has always taken the 'right of the line' and all gunners are considered 'Gentlemen of the Artillery':D:p:D

[abaddonxi]

All very confusing.

The New South Wales Corps, raised in England to serve in the colony of NSW, doesn't that make them a British Corps?

While NSW was a colony and didn't become part of a country "Australia" till 1901, wasn't the continent called Australia (from Terra-Australis)?

Which would then make the NSW Rifle Volunteers, formed by free settlers the first Australian military organisation?

All very confusing!

Any Early Australian Historians out there ???

Diana

I think we'd need a British military historian. It's splitting hairs between troops sent to serve overseas for five years, as the First Fleet marines were, and a new service raised to be permanently stationed overseas. There is a military tradition of foreign service followed by foreign citizenship/de-facto naturalisation.

Either way, the NSW Corps/Rum Corps were the government of the colony and went on to be the backbone of those that made the transition from dependency on Britain and British supplies to self-sufficiency.

Had to run to The fatal shore for a refresher.

P109

But after 1792 it (the colony) became self-supporting, and that was the work of landsmen - the officers of the New South Wales Corps and their friends. For nearly three years between Phillip's departure in December 1792 and Hunter's return in 1795, the colony was in effect run for the New South Wales Corps by its principal officers, Francis Grose and Willam Patterson. They set the pattern of private management and slave labor that created the wealth of Australia's first elite.

And a beauty from John Macarthur p111 -

The changes we have undergone since the departure of Governor Phillip are so great and extraordinary that to recite them all might create some suspicion of their truth. From a state of desponding poverty and threatened famine that this settlement should be raised to its present aspect in so short a time is barely credible.

As I understand it, identification of Australia as something other than a British colony didn't occur until very recently. If you look to the celebration of Australia Day (formerly Foundation Day) over the past couple of hundred years you find that it wasn't even celebrated consistently across Australia -


In 1946, following their concerted efforts and with the support of similar movements, the Commonwealth Government and all States and Territories finally agreed to observe the same national day - 26 January - and to call that day Australia Day.
Australia Day | Student Resources (http://www.australiaday.com.au/studentresources/history.aspx#Chronology)

Lastly, on the us of the name Australia, from the above website-

1817
Governor Macquarie recommends the adoption of the name Australia for the entire continent, replacing New Holland

Cheers
Simon

[LR V8]

Its not all roses you know ..... Cheers George ex RAN

Your absolutely right of course George. I don't think any offence is intended. Just a bit of tri-service banter and a few civy's being baited.... :angel:

Prior to Federation, our military forces were more or less just state militia. The exception is the reference to the Royal Australian Artillery being established in 1899.

Also in 1899, the states each raised units to serve with the British in the Boar War (South Africa). With the establishment of the Australian Army in 1901, a lot of these guys would have reinlisted. Some of our regular and reserve units can directly trace their lineage to these units.... and in some cases partly retain their name... eg 2/14 Light Horse Regiment (Queensland Mounted Infantry) and 1/19 Royal New South Wales Regiment (The Bushmen's Rifles).

Five Australians received the VC in the Boar War... prior to the establishment of the 'Australian Army'.

Cheers,

Pete

[101RRS]

Most of the independent Australian colonies had Navies from the mid to late 1800s. The most famous of these ships was HMVS Cerberus (the current HMAS Cerberus is named after it). It was a monitor of the Victorian Navy from about 1870 and currently a reef just inside the heads in Port Phillip Bay.

On 1 January 1901 Colonial Navies came under the control of the new Commonwealth Government. On 1 March 1901 the CNF (Commonwealth Naval Force was created)- so there has been an Australian Navy since the date of Federation. The CNF subsequently became the RAN (Royal Australian Navy) in 1911.

Garry

[porgey]

G,day Pete no offence taken . I just closed my eyes and remembered . Cheers George

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...
Five Australians received the VC in the Boar War... prior to the establishment of the 'Australian Army'. ...
Pete the Boar War VC's would have been British awards.

Do you know what date the Australian VC awards came into being, was it at Federation or later? After WWII maybe???

Diana

[RonMcGr]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/03/429.jpg

Bond, James Bond.

Note the "Ship" :D

[RonMcGr]

Its not all roses you know , See how your guts are after steaming through a Typhoon and you cant sleep because you get pitched out of your hammock or bunk . Then you get called to action stations and have to stay below in a magazine or shell room for hours at a time and all you can smell is cordite fumes and your mates spew "If thats racing around in boats " mate I joined the wrong Navy Cheers George ex RAN

George,

That is a good story :D
I still remember the awful trip to Vietnam on HMAS Sydney. The heat inside the ship was terrible.
Then there are those old Orion class Subs that stink of diesel all the time.

I would not have been in the NAVY for quids!

Good on you :D

[zulu Delta 534]

The Auustralian Regular Army, as we know it today, only came into being on the 30 Nov 1947. Prior to this date it was written into our constitution (1901) that the Australian Army was for home defence only, hence when Australian diggers deployed overseas in WWl and WWll they did so as the "Australian Imperial Force", a fancy political sidestep to get around a bit of embarrassing paperwork of the day. This tends to offer an explanation why our troops came under British command for so long.
Troops who served in New Zealand from 1846, and again in 1860, and the Eureka Stockade in 1854 (12th and 40th Regts.) were in fact British troops from Australia.
From 1885 -99 units were formed from all colonies, or states as we know them today, and it was these troops who served in the Boer war.

On the other hand it is interesting to note the RAN always sailed under the British White Ensign until 1 March 1967 when it was replaced by the Australian White Ensign we use today. (Brought about by the British protesting that they were NOT involved in the Vietnam conflict, therefore the ensign should not be seen on ships that were involved.) The RAN as we know it today actually took over from the RN in the defence of the Colonies in July 28, 1909, and our first ships arrived in Melbourne late in 1910.

Now the RAAF, with roots going back to its first ever combat aircraft in 1912, and serving under the names Aust. Flying Corps, then the Aust Air Corps, then the Australian Air Force, had the "Royal" bestowed on its name on 31 August 1921.
BUT all the traditions etc. that our military forces take for granted today date back to our British military heritage, so I suppose it all depends on what point of view one takes as in any argument, as to which side of that argument you see.
Diana
All Victoria Crosses were British awards.
Regards
Glen

[martinozcmax]

The RN were the first and we are the senior service, despite what any crabfats or pongo's may tell you !! :p

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The RN were the first and we are the senior service, despite what any crabfats or pongo's may tell you !! :p
Spoken like a true pussa!

Diana - sorry about that :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

[Bigbjorn]

Also in 1899, the states each raised units to serve with the British in the Boar War (South Africa). Five Australians received the VC in the Boar War... prior to the establishment of the 'Australian Army'.

Cheers,

Pete

Is this why infantry are called grunts?

[Tango51]

Well, you all share the same retirement ....if you have the right tats and connections you will end up cruising the Hospital corridors chatting up the British staff and Asian s too in our Aussie hospitals:p

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I think we'd need a British military historian. It's splitting hairs between troops sent to serve overseas for five years, as the First Fleet marines were, and a new service raised to be permanently stationed overseas. There is a military tradition of foreign service followed by foreign citizenship/de-facto naturalisation.

Either way, the NSW Corps/Rum Corps were the government of the colony and went on to be the backbone of those that made the transition from dependency on Britain and British supplies to self-sufficiency. ..

...Lastly, on the us of the name Australia, from the above website-


1817
Governor Macquarie recommends the adoption of the name Australia for the entire continent, replacing New Holland
...
Cheers
Simon


Most of the independent Australian colonies had Navies from the mid to late 1800s. ...
... Garry
Thanks guys you are both a wealth of information.

However but I am going to remain pedantic on this one. That troops serving in the "Rum Corps" became citizen settlers in the colony of NSW after their enlistment is irrelevant. The New South Wales Corps, was a British occupying force originally raised in England and remained a British force till it was disbanded. That the colony was able to feed itself and enlist free settlers was convenient for the British Government but it makes the NSW Corps no more Australian than the Gurkha's were Chinese.

I feel that it is also irrelevant that the New South Wales Rifle Volunteers was a Militia Force. New South Wales Rifle Volunteers, (http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=303814&search=1860&images=&c=1&s=)It meets the criteria of being Australian since it was founded in the mid 1800s after the continent was recognised as Australia (1817 as Simon suggests), was raised in Sydney and recognised as the first volunteer force.

Australian Militias, have served overseas in both the Bore War and the New Guinea Campaign of WWII.

That the forces sent to the aid of Great Brittan were called the "Imperial Force" is less important than the "Australian" representing the newly Federated country. May I also suggest that the 4th and 5th Divisions of the AIF were not actually raised in Australia? (They were raised in Egypt, by splitting the 1st and 2nd Australian Divisions and the New Zealand & Australian Division.) By my logic the 4th and 5th Division were Egyptian - but the troops enlisted in Oz ?????


...
Diana
All Victoria Crosses were British awards.
Regards
Glen
Glen

I had a thought that the VC's awarded in Vietnam were Australian, however you are correct. What raised this question was one evening at the local RSL I was reviewing the Honor roll and the collection of medals, where there was a history of Australian Military and other Service Awards, it mentioned an Australian VC award.

After doing a search I find that we are both correct, there is an Australian Award of VC but it only came into being in 1991 and I don't think that any have yet been awarded - unless in E Timor, Afghanistan and other "I" place.
The Victoria Cross (http://www.anzacday.org.au/education/medals/vc/default.html)


Well, you all share the same retirement ....if you have the right tats and connections you will end up cruising the Hospital corridors chatting up the British staff and Asian s too in our Aussie hospitals:p
Not if I can help it - I would rather spend time talking to old Diggers or anything other than spending time in Hospitals.


Cheers
Diana

[Bigbjorn]

Diana, were my grandfather (4th. Div. HQ Tunnelling Company, later 52 Bn. & 49 Bn.) still alive, I don't think he would be terribly thrilled to be called Egyptian. He used to tell us Egypt and Egyptians were the dirtiest country and people he ever saw. His eldest son,my uncle Karl, caught enteric fever in Egypt after return from Gallipoli and the aftereffects bothered him the rest of his life. He was 18 months in military hospital in Brisbane before being declared fit and sent to France.

[101RRS]

Is this why infantry are called grunts?

To Navy people all Army people are grunts:D

[LR V8]

......Do you know what date the Australian VC awards came into being, was it at Federation or later? After WWII maybe???

Diana

Hi Diana,

The Victoria Cross for Australia was instituted on 15 January 1991. No one has been awarded it to date.


Pete

[Bigbjorn]

To Navy people all Army people are grunts:D

Particularly those that hunted boars.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Diana, were my grandfather (4th. Div. HQ Tunnelling Company, later 52 Bn. & 49 Bn.) still alive, I don't think he would be terribly thrilled to be called Egyptian.
Brian

No I wasn't suggesting that the 4th and 5th Divisions were Egyptian Divisions just that the quirk of history realised their creation in Egypt, from Gallipoli Veterans and replacement troops fresh from Oz training in Egypt.

If your grandfather was in the 13 Bde HQ for France what was he in Gallipoli? 9th, 25th or 26th Bn (1st or 2nd Div).

The bit of history (apart from the entire war) that I find really sad was when the Australian Desert Corps was being dispanded and repatriated to Oz, the waler horses were not going to be returned. Instead of leaving the animals many of the troopers shot their own mount, just so that they wouldn't suffer at the hands of the Egyptians.

Diana

[graceysdad]

Didnt think the VC was still a current award in Aus, we issue the Cross of Valor dont we, one of my great grand pappys was 12 battalion SA he was among the first to storm the beaches at Gallipoli, later to be killed in action at Lone Pine, my other great grand daddy was 3rd Light horse and he too went to Gallipoli hanging around the Nek and Baby 700 and Destroyer Hill he survived Gallipoli to go onto the Middle East and Palestine, he was a blacksmith by trade before the war and the other was a drapers assistant. May they both rest in peace.

[zulu Delta 534]

Brian Hjelm
Your quip re the 'Boar War' and the 'Grunts' didnt go un-noticed, it did in fact rank a chuckle or two.
Regards
Glen

[graceysdad]

Pigs roll around in the mud and pigs grunt, Army boys roll around in the mud and grunt, spose this has nothing to do with the price of tea bags in afghanistan

[Bigbjorn]

Grandfather was not at Gallipoli, his eldest son, Karl, was in 1st. Div. Ammunition Supply Column at Gallipoli. Grandfather enlisted in 1916, sent to Egypt, then to France as 4th. Div. Reinforcements. Two of his nephews were Light horse. Karl was invalided home from Egypt and spent 18 months in Hospital at "Yungaba", the immigration depot at Kangaroo Point, Brisbane, which had been made over into a military hospital. Karl was declared fit for service and sent to France early 1917, 4th. Div. Ammunition Supply Column.

[Bigbjorn]

To Navy people all Army people are grunts:D

Were not naval officers once called grunters by the ORs?

[RonMcGr]

Pigs roll around in the mud and pigs grunt, Army boys roll around in the mud and grunt, spose this has nothing to do with the price of tea bags in afghanistan

Well, I was in the Infantry for the first 7 years, however I don't recall "Grunting" as the norm. After two weeks on ration packs, it has been know to occur..:eek::eek::eek:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Grandfather was not at Gallipoli, his eldest son, Karl, was in 1st. Div. Ammunition Supply Column at Gallipoli. Grandfather enlisted in 1916, sent to Egypt, then to France as 4th. Div.....
Sorry Brian, missed the distinction between grandfather and son (your cousin I assume).

So many Great War Vets came back with chronic illnesses not necessarily related to explosives and bullets. My grandfather 9th Field Engineers, (3rd Division) was hospitalised in France with a respiratory illness and suffered chronic respiratory problems from when he was repatriated in 1919 to when he died at only 45 years old. My father had to give him aminophiline injections quite frequently. Grandfather never fired a shot while over there, but one wonders if he was partiallty gassed while digging jumping off trenches in "no-mans land" each night?

Diana

[Bigbjorn]

He was my uncle. Karl was my father's older brother. My wife's grandfather was a sapper and was gassed in 1917. He suffered poor health from the gas and what was then called "shell shock" for the rest of his life. His brother was 31 Bn. and was killed in a gas attack at Passchendaele.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

He was my uncle. Karl was my father's older brother. My wife's grandfather was a sapper and was gassed in 1917. He suffered poor health from the gas and what was then called "shell shock" for the rest of his life. His brother was 31 Bn. and was killed in a gas attack at Passchendaele.
Uncle http://www.gangsterbb.net/emoticons/doh.gif

Diana :(

[porgey]

Were not naval officers once called grunters by the ORs?
__________________
URSUSMAJOR

Yes Cheers George

[porgey]

A Friend years ago was gunnery chief petty officer on the Hmas Perth sunk With the USS Houston in 1942 in the Sunda Straits. He was telling me that when they steamed into the middle of a japanese fleet they didnt bother to aim they just fired until they had exhaused all the shells then they continued to fire practice rounds until the Perth got hit by a couple of torpedoes and sort of stuffed up the chances of getting home he and others got off the ship but finished up POWs of the infamous Japs I met him in 1956 and he was a real happy go lucky sort of guy I guess surviving all that s.....t he could afford to be Happy Go lucky Cheers George

[UncleHo]

G'day Porgey :)

My first wifes father was on the Perth, don't think that he ended up as a POW, seem to remember that a couple of lifeboats got away, by the time that I met him he had a VERY serious drinking problem:( that was early 60's

Had a school mate that was on the Voyager :( he also went into the bottle, I believe it was his Engine Room watch at the time of the collision, he was doing 28days:nazilock: never got over it, felt guilty that he survived

cheers

[Lotz-A-Landies]

My uncle was the ships surgeon when the Yanks decided to put a sparrow missile into the HMAS Hobart.

It was a well planned attack, at that moment there was only 1 surgeon aboard any ship in the US 7th Fleet (in which Hobart was attached). The rest were off at some land based conference, being an Aussie Medical Officer, Graham wasn't invited or was overlooked.

Graham was quite annoyed, while the ship went for repairs in Subic Bay and the rest of the crew had shore leave, Graham was sent to a Military Hospital at Da Nang (I think it was.)

[graceysdad]

In regards to vets coming home with illness, my uncle was a Desert Rat he came home with his lungs full of sand and suffered badly from respiratory sickness right through to the end, and yet when I read the service dossiers of my great grandad he was sick with bronchitis and recurring VD no doubt from the Egyptians, but its the smokes that claimed them all in the end, grandad blamed the Army for his addiction to smokes, he survived the bombing in Darwin only to die of lung cancer, those old time fags were real lung busters!

[Bigbjorn]

Those service records on the National Archives must be a bit of embarassment to some wowser descendants. VD, AWOL, desertion, crimes, fines and detention all there for anyone to see. One of my Light Horse rellies was recorded as hospitalised three times in Egypt with VD. One dose recorded as "European brothel, Port Said". I always thought he was a bit staid and toffee-nosed. He died in 1968 of non-military related old age.