HMAS SYDNEY finally found

[graceysdad]

Just heard this morning that the wreck of the Sydney was found along with the wreck of the Kormoran, she lies in 2400 meters of water of Carnarvon WA, hopefully we will see some pictures at some stage but I guess now the families of the 645 who didnt make it will have some closure on what is our worst Naval disaster. I would hope the actual location is kept secret so she isnt plundered, look what happened to Titanic.

[UncleHo]

G'day Graceysdad :)

I fully agree :)

[Tusker]

From what I read in this morning's Herald, the Kormaron's hull is is several pieces, some distance apart..

Regards
Max P

[RonMcGr]

Just heard this morning that the wreck of the Sydney was found along with the wreck of the Kormoran, she lies in 2400 meters of water of Carnarvon WA, hopefully we will see some pictures at some stage but I guess now the families of the 645 who didnt make it will have some closure on what is our worst Naval disaster. I would hope the actual location is kept secret so she isnt plundered, look what happened to Titanic.

Yes, what happened to the Titanic is terrible.
Fortunately it is so deep the "Glory Hunters" cannot get sown there.

I'm pleased they found HMAS Sydney, at last.

[Tango51]

Good news.


Yes, it is much more useful if all things of interest remain down there to rot and decay.

[easo]

Would be very interesting to see some pics.

[95 Disco]

There is music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.
They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

[seqfisho]

My grandfather is on that ship, this will go a long way to healing wounds for our family that have been open for too long.

Lets hope we get some truth out of what really happened to all those brave Australian sons, and proper recognition of the sacrifice made by all their families.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Would be very interesting to see some pics.
I think what would be of most interest would be the stern of the Kormoron, there were reports that she had been fitted with torpedo tubes below the waterline. These were angled at somewhere near 45 degrees, just where a warship would approach a suspicious vessel.

At least it would answer the question why the Sydney succumbed. Leave the Sydney lie and rest in peace!

Diana

[Jamo]

There was an interesting article in the paper the other day. A sailor from the Kormoran claimed that the Syndey's Captain had failed to observe correct procedures for approaching a potentially hostile vessel; and had consequently exposed his ship to attack.

Maybe they'll be able to work out what happened.

[graceysdad]

There is already talk being bandied around of them raising the Sydney, lets dispel that myth right now, there are treaties in place that protect the wrecks of Naval Ships from the wars specially those that suffered casualties, ather current depth of 2400 mts thats impossible anyway to even suggest the idea, This has been said of the HMAS Australia sunk of Sydney heads every now and again the idea to refloat comes about, ok you refloat the ship if it could be and then what do you do with it? the second it hits oxygen it will decay faster then an icecube on a hot day, this sort of talk is folly and I wish the journos wouldnt circulate this crap
On another note I find it very intersting how all our previous prime ministers have said yes we will find the Sydney but never did , the subject was too much of a hot potatoe and little Ruddy gets in there and finds not one but both and very quickly, I am beginning to like Kevin Rudd albeit very slowly!

[Disco300Tdi]

There was an interesting article in the paper the other day. A sailor from the Kormoran claimed that the Syndey's Captain had failed to observe correct procedures for approaching a potentially hostile vessel; and had consequently exposed his ship to attack.

Maybe they'll be able to work out what happened.

All history into the sinking of H.M.A.S. Sydney relies on the surviving crew of the Kormoran, which was scuttled by the crew.
Not surprising that the German warship is in pieces, it allegedly had 300 mines on board.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

All history into the sinking of H.M.A.S. Sydney relies on the surviving crew of the Kormoran, which was scuttled by the crew.....
However, you never scuttle a viable vessel, particularly only a couple of hundred miles off enemy territory and 1000s miles from the closest friendly territory, unless the ship is sinking in any case.

Score 1 German Raider by HMAS Sydney and 1 HMA warship for SS Kormoron.

Diana

[101RRS]

The Kormoran was an armed merchant ship - a raider where all weapons are disguised and a false identity taken on - it relies on deception and it worked on this account. It is believed that the Captain of the Sydney thought the ship was a dutch merchant ship - hence he closed and was less cautious than maybe he should have been.

Sydney did not need to close the ship as its guns outranged those of the raider so clearly Sydney was deceived.

I don't think Rudd had much to do with this - mucj of the creadit must go to the current leadership of the Navy who has supported the exploration teams and convinced Govt authorities that fundinf should be provided.

Certainly when I was in the Navy there was little organisational support from either the Navy of Govt to find the ship - though individuals were always interested.

Anyway it is great that this mystery has been solved. Though I do not think it is a mystery - Sydney closed on what it thought was a Dutch merchant ship - when close, Kormoran opened fire - Sydney opened fire giving a mortal blow and while opening the range was also given a fatal hit by torpedos near the bow - both ships opened the range with fatal wounds with the Kormoran sinking slowly so that most crew were able to abandon ship - the foreward magazines on the Sydney exploded and the ship sank immediately.

My thoughts.

Garry

[seqfisho]

On another note I find it very intersting how all our previous prime ministers have said yes we will find the Sydney but never did , the subject was too much of a hot potatoe and little Ruddy gets in there and finds not one but both and very quickly, I am beginning to like Kevin Rudd albeit very slowly!

Kevin Rudd is just johnny on the spot, it was the "Finding Sydney Foundation" and the previous federal government that provided the bulk of the funding with support from both NSW and WA state governments.

KRudd seems like a nice guy, but we will see where this leads.

[Taz]

Reports are that the exploration vessel will return to gero on thursday to dump the sidescan sonar equioment and take on a UUV - unmanned underwater vehicle that is, with high res camera's. So if all goes well we should see some actual pictures around thursday next week.

[easo]

I was quite impressed with the memoral in WA with the dome of sea gulls.

[3 Lions]

[QUOTE=garrycol;712780]The Kormoran was an armed merchant ship - a raider where all weapons are disguised and a false identity taken on - it relies on deception and it worked on this account. It is believed that the Captain of the Sydney thought the ship was a dutch merchant ship - hence he closed and was less cautious than maybe he should have been.

'known as a 'Q' ship. I don't know a lot about the incident but have always wondered if the magazines were not hit early on on the Sydney as to go down that quickly with a ships company of 645 and no survivors.

[101RRS]

I doubt that the magazines were directly hit because the survivors from the Kormoran said that when the ships broke of the action, the Sydney disappeared over the horizon heavily on fire - some indicated there then may have been an explosion but this was not a consistent account.

Certainly the ship did not sink quickly until the very end when something happened (like a magazine exploding) that did make it go down before abondoning ship.

There may very have been survivors initially - and most probably were for a while - at least one did survive and his body was found in a raft at Christmas Is. Who knows what happened to them but you can use your imagination.

It is however practice to flood magazines when temperatures get too high so normally this would have been done at the appropriate time - but then maybe the damage prevented this - maybe it will become clear over time.

Garry

[RoverOne]

My first boss Theo H Levy his son was a Liutenant on the Sydney, I believe there are only his grandchildren left to mourn an uncle they didn't know. :(

We were importers and he refused to buy Japanese goods or Jap company cars, to the latter thank heavens for Ford Falcons :D after he passed away we bought a few Corona waggons but were not successfull.

A page in history close to closure at last.

[RoverOne]

Kevin Rudd is just johnny on the spot, it was the "Finding Sydney Foundation" and the previous federal government that provided the bulk of the funding with support from both NSW and WA state governments.

KRudd seems like a nice guy, but we will see where this leads.

Totaly agree Glen, Rudd will be Johny on the spot for awhile & they all seem like nice guys, but remember they take even more fuel excise when unneccessary & fuel hits $2.00 etc, their just politicans.

[porgey]

There is an ex HMAS Sydney organisation [I was a member as I had served on the Carrier Sydney ,] up to a couple of years ago there were several old sailors that had served on the Sydney In its Med ops they were Lobbying the federal government for years to try to find the wreck I hope a few of those guys are still with us and am sure will be delighted at the results possibly of their lobbying. Cheers George ex RAN

[CraigE]

It is good that it has been found and may give some closure to families.
But how it differs from any other person MIA presumed dead mystifies me. As does taxpayer money being used to find it. There are many more things taxpayer dollars should be spent on before finding shipwrecks. At the end of the day it is not really going to change anything. But hey as a society we all seem hell bent on wasting money rather than fixing our hospitals etc, stuff that people actually need.
No offence or disrespect intended to any of the personnel that served on board or there family. I do have the upmost respect for people that defend our country.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...There are many more things taxpayer dollars should be spent on before finding shipwrecks. At the end of the day it is not really going to change anything. But hey as a society we all seem hell bent on wasting money rather than fixing our hospitals etc, stuff that people actually need....
Craig

I can't agree with you on this part of your post.

Yes there are things that we should spend money on, but putting closure on the deaths of those serving their country is also a necessary burden on the national purse. We are a poor country indeed if out history rates as only a optional accessory on the bottom line of the budget.

We are correct to spend money on identifying the bodies of WWI soldiers found in the Somme Battlefield and we are correct mapping and photographing the wreck of the HMAS Sydney.

If we want to lose frivolous expenditure for improving hospitals, schools and transport, cancel the Sydney fireworks each "envelope opening day" and APEC Summits.

Diana

[CraigE]

Craig

I can't agree with you on this part of your post.

Yes there are things that we should spend money on, but putting closure on the deaths of those serving their country is also a necessary burden on the national purse. We are a poor country indeed if out history rates as only a optional accessory on the bottom line of the budget.

We are correct to spend money on identifying the bodies of WWI soldiers found in the Somme Battlefield and we are correct mapping and photographing the wreck of the HMAS Sydney.

If we want to lose frivolous expenditure for improving hospitals, schools and transport, cancel the Sydney fireworks each "envelope opening day" and APEC Summits.

Diana
Fair enough Diana, but we will disagree on the funding issue. I have no problem with spending taxpayer money on that sort of thing if all other socio economic issues are addressed first. I really can not see how any one can justify spending money on something that is not going to actually change anything apart from proving where it lies, when there ar children living in poverty, people dying on hospital waiting list and children not being educated effectively.
As said I do hope it brings some peace to the families.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Fair enough Diana, but we will disagree on the funding issue. I have no problem with spending taxpayer money on that sort of thing if all other socio economic issues are addressed first. I really can not see how any one can justify spending money on something that is not going to actually change anything apart from proving where it lies, when there are children living in poverty, people dying on hospital waiting list and children not being educated effectively.
As said I do hope it brings some peace to the families.
Craig

I have no problem with disagreement.

You are also correct about spending on health, education and infrastructure. However when we are spending billions of dollars on 2nd hand Super-Hornets, and reconditioned Abrams tanks then a few millions looking for a war grave is nothing, particularly as we already have a commitment to maintain Commonwealth War Graves. It is also less than the millions of dollars spent party political propaganda (in the guise of government advertising) and on fireworks each year, both examples of government waste. This is the sort of priority we should be complaining about.

Fireworks are great, but they should be self funding, not out of the Government purse.

Diana

[stock]

HMAS Sydney was a modified Leander-class light cruiser of the Royal Australian Navy. The ship had great success in the first years of World War II, but controversy and mystery surrounds the loss of Sydney and her crew in November 1941. Her sinking with all hands represents the greatest ever loss of life in an Australian warship; Sydney was also the largest vessel of any country to be lost with no survivors during the war.[citation needed]

It was announced on March 16, 2008 that the wreckage of the German vessel which sank HMAS Sydney, the auxiliary cruiser HSK Kormoran, had been found on the night of March 14, 2008.[1] On the next day, March 17, 2008, the discovery of the wreck of HMAS Sydney herself was announced by Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.[2] Sydney was located on March 15, 2008, 150 kilometres (81 nmi) from Shark Bay and 22 kilometres (12 nmi) from the location where the German ship HSK Kormoran was found.

[CraigE]

Craig

I have no problem with disagreement.

You are also correct about spending on health, education and infrastructure. However when we are spending billions of dollars on 2nd hand Super-Hornets, and reconditioned Abrams tanks then a few millions looking for a war grave is nothing, particularly as we already have a commitment to maintain Commonwealth War Graves. It is also less than the millions of dollars spent party political propaganda (in the guise of government advertising) and on fireworks each year, both examples of government waste. This is the sort of priority we should be complaining about.

Fireworks are great, but they should be self funding, not out of the Government purse.

Diana
Diana,
Absolutely correct. The funds to find the Sydney should have come from the military budget.;)
Cheers
Craig

[CraigE]

Diana,
Seperate issue. Are you working a night shift or just an insomniac?:p
Cheers
CraigE

Craig

I have no problem with disagreement.

You are also correct about spending on health, education and infrastructure. However when we are spending billions of dollars on 2nd hand Super-Hornets, and reconditioned Abrams tanks then a few millions looking for a war grave is nothing, particularly as we already have a commitment to maintain Commonwealth War Graves. It is also less than the millions of dollars spent party political propaganda (in the guise of government advertising) and on fireworks each year, both examples of government waste. This is the sort of priority we should be complaining about.

Fireworks are great, but they should be self funding, not out of the Government purse.

Diana

[RoverOne]

It is good that it has been found and may give some closure to families.
But how it differs from any other person MIA presumed dead mystifies me. As does taxpayer money being used to find it. There are many more things taxpayer dollars should be spent on before finding shipwrecks. At the end of the day it is not really going to change anything. But hey as a society we all seem hell bent on wasting money rather than fixing our hospitals etc, stuff that people actually need.
No offence or disrespect intended to any of the personnel that served on board or there family. I do have the upmost respect for people that defend our country.

"Facta Non Verba"

"Deeds not Words"

These sailors lost their lives by deeds, I don't think we need words like " what a waste of tax payers money", I dare say these thoughts would be a minority thought process thanks heavens, but they did give up their lives so you could put your point across, even though insensative.

[101RRS]

I would have to agree that to spend money on searching for MIA that have little chance of being found is a waste of money.

HOWEVER, when there is a chance of finding a MIA or something of historical significance is important then money should be spent. The most recent examples of these are the Sydney, the recent Vietnam recoveries and when infomation has come to light of burials in France. There are other examples.

My greatest disappointment is that during my 30 years in the Navy there was always a lot of talk at senior levels (at all levels) about searching for the three major missing wrecks of historical significance to the Navy ie Sydney in the Indian Ocean, the submarine AE1 of New Guinea and AE2 in the Dardinelles but nothing was never done - realistically the Navy could have found the Sydney from anytime after about 1980 if it wanted - thats when the technology made it possible.

It is only in the past few years that AE2 was found - when what were junior officers all those years ago became senior or retired.

I think these seaches are important - they are worth more to the psychic of the country than the costs would reflect.

Wikipedia have already updated their sites and are well worth having a look at - the first link is about the Kormoran and the second is about the battle - well worth reading.


German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_auxiliary_cruiser_Kormoran)

Battle between HMAS Sydney and HSK Kormoran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_between_HMAS_Sydney_and_HSK_Kormoran)

Garry

[graceysdad]

Why hasnt anyone had a poke at the Sea Sprite Navy choppers, bought at massive cost, further upgraded here at massive cost, never flown and now they have given up on the programme, total cost? The Sydney is part of our Navy history as are the AE1 and 2, for many years it was the not knowing, what happened,why it happened, if your on the other side of the fence as a loved one you want answers too regardless of time past, many wives, mother, father and siblings will now be at ease as they know!,

I dont think you can put a price on the deeds that were done by our soldier regardless of service, we can never repay what they sacrificed for us and to give your life for your your king and country at that time really showed what they stood for. Alot of time has passed but for many diggers and sailors and RAAFYS there memory is as sharp today as it was then, they still carry the memories of there fallen mates and everyone else left behind, I dont think it hurts us any to close a few open doors for the sake of there families and loved ones, its the very least we can do for them.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Why hasnt anyone had a poke at the Sea Sprite Navy choppers, bought at massive cost, further upgraded here at massive cost, never flown and now they have given up on the programme, ....
Forgot about them - shock horror!

Thought maybe they were a bad dream. :mad:

Diana :angel:

[Jamo]

Australian military procurement history is littered with bad decisions and money wasting, both at a political level and at a departmental level. Vehicles, radios, clothing, weapon systems/platforms, you name it, there's endless examples of money/time wasting. Quite often, too much time/money is spent on evaluation rather than actual procurement.

There's loads of theories as to why. Decisions made by incompetent officers that have been promoted into Canberra to keep them out of field force units, civies protecting their own jobs, pollies lining their own pockets, who knows. There needs to be something done to fix it. We're too small a country to be wasting time and money like this.

I'm talking about the helicopters, not the Sydney.

I think it's good the Sydney has been found. Over 106,000 Australians have lost their lives in operations. Most of them remain overseas.

[101RRS]

And of course we now have the Super Hornets - Defence advised Howard's Government that they were suitable but Howard went ahead anyway - now Rudd wants out but the cost is $500m so we will proceed with an aircraft we do not really need.

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

.... Over 106,000 Australians have lost their lives in operations. Most of them remain overseas.
Oh So CraigE was correct, the Aussie hospitals have such long waiting lists that patients are going overseas to shonky Asian hospitals for operations and dying.

Quick Mr KRudd, we need to fix the hospitals, before the next 106,000 Aussies die.

Diana :wasntme:

[timaus13]

Lest we forget the Ultimate Sacrifice these Brave Australians made for all of us.
I pray for them all.
As well as their families.

[CraigE]

Yes,
and I have the upmost respect for the price these people paid and that their families paid and it is probablly a good thing the Sydney has been found. Yes personally I have family members that have been lost in conflicts etc or wounded etc. I am not going to get into a slanging match about right and wrong. I just think we are a country of such huge waste at the momment and we really need to sort out issue that effect the living first. My belief is this sort of thing should be funded by the public sector or the organisation originally responsible like the navy, not the government. And yes I have donated money to the find the Sydney fund when they were collecting.
Hope I have not affected any families involved, it was not my intention.
Cheers
CraigE

"Facta Non Verba"

"Deeds not Words"

These sailors lost their lives by deeds, I don't think we need words like " what a waste of tax payers money", I dare say these thoughts would be a minority thought process thanks heavens, but they did give up their lives so you could put your point across, even though insensative.

[Taz]

Quite often, too much time/money is spent on evaluation rather than actual procurement.


Sorry Jamo, but this was found to be the reason why so many defence projects went haywire - not enough pre contract evaluation. At least so said the Kennaird report which revolutionalised the defence material organisation. Now there is a minimum amount (%15 I think) that must be spent doing evaluations, risk assessments etc before buying. That is of course if the procurement follows proper procedure and is not railroaded by ministers making their own decisions.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

.... That is of course if the procurement follows proper procedure and is not railroaded by ministers making their own decisions.
What like "Arleigh Burke's design was favoured by the Navy, but was beaten by Navantia. The executive director of the Australia Defence Association, Neil James, says the US destroyer is superior but the Government's decision is understandable.

"There's no doubt that on paper the American ship was a better ship," he said." Navy unveils $11b warship contract - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/20/1956405.htm)

[Jamo]

Well Taz, my experience is from the user end and not dmo, so it's good to know that dmo and the govt have totally got their act together and that there will be no resource wasting in future and that the best available kit will be purchased and supplied within acceptable timeframes!;)

[Taz]

What like "Arleigh Burke's design was favoured by the Navy, but was beaten by Navantia.

Whilst I have little knowledge of the AWD aquisition strategy, I can only assume that the government wasnt going to accept the risk of a "vapour ware" design.

[Taz]

Well Taz, my experience is from the user end and not dmo, so it's good to know that dmo and the govt have totally got their act together and that there will be no resource wasting in future and that the best available kit will be purchased and supplied within acceptable timeframes!;)

hehehe.... I'm just waiting for sparks to start flying when Greg Combet gets stuck in to DMO:cool: