Man killed at four-wheel-drive park

[29dinosaur]

Man killed at four-wheel-drive park (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/07/2209328.htm'section=justin)


Anyone know what happened here?

[WhiteD3]

Cityview

4WD plunges down embankment - Queensland - BrisbaneTimes - brisbanetimes.com.au (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/articles/2008/04/07/1207420238019.html)

[Grimace]

:(

I hate hearing stuff like this. But honestly if getting out of the vehicle was an option then why was it not taken?

Sounds as if it was not an ideal situation to be using a chain aswell.

Sad day for cityview, and condolences to the mans family & friends.

[spudboy]

Man killed at four-wheel-drive park

Posted 2 hours 12 minutes ago

Map: Southport 4215 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/maps/map.htm?lat=-27.9716&long=153.4094&caption=Southport 4215)

A man has been killed in a car accident at a four-wheel-drive park west of Queensland's Gold Coast.
Police say the man was driving on a dirt track when his wheels slipped over the edge of a steep hill on the Bromelton property about 6:00pm yesterday.
The 59-year-old remained in the car while others tried to tow the vehicle back onto the track, but the chain snapped and the car plunged over the steep embankment.
He died at the scene.

[harry]

an extremely sad occurrance.
do we know any more about this?

[Dave_S]

The news report says the vehicle was on an "extreme" track. That word has become so over used in advertising and lifestyle descriptions that these days you can get just about any product you can think of with "extreme" written on it.

It wasn't always that way. I spent a bit of time in the French Alps when people were starting to describe some sports as being extreme. Basically that description was applied to activities where if you made a mistake, you were probably going to die. I knew 3 guys who did just that in two months. They were all skiers. The carnage was much worse among the climbers.

The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes we tend to forget about the possible consequences of what we're doing. I don't know why a chain was being used in this particular instance, but I do know that sometimes no matter how good your gear is and how skilled you are, a little mistake, equipment failure or unforseen quirk of nature can have severe implications.

That doesn't mean we should all take up knitting. But it might be a good time to go over your recovery gear and replace anything that's worn before you have to see whether it's good for one last time.

[p38arover]

:(

I hate hearing stuff like this. But honestly if getting out of the vehicle was an option then why was it not taken?

Sounds as if it was not an ideal situation to be using a chain aswell.

Sad day for cityview, and condolences to the mans family & friends.

Yes, I wonder as well. I also offer my condolences to all involved. I'm sure those trying to recover him will be wondering what they could have done to avoid it and maybe even blaming themselves.

An awful situation for them all.

[Outlaw]

There is a thread on Outers as well, and Cityview is a frequent member there but i doubt he'll chime in :(

[TwoUp]

Good point Dave S, checking our equipment now and regularly is essential to our and others safety when things get tough.

I feel also for the people that were on the scene and making decisions when under pressure and the persons that may have followed directions of others only to have such an accident. I wish them well.

PeterW

[Utemad]

The news report says the vehicle was on an "extreme" track. That word has become so over used in advertising and lifestyle descriptions that these days you can get just about any product you can think of with "extreme" written on it.

It wasn't always that way. I spent a bit of time in the French Alps when people were starting to describe some sports as being extreme. Basically that description was applied to activities where if you made a mistake, you were probably going to die. I knew 3 guys who did just that in two months. They were all skiers. The carnage was much worse among the climbers.

The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes we tend to forget about the possible consequences of what we're doing. I don't know why a chain was being used in this particular instance, but I do know that sometimes no matter how good your gear is and how skilled you are, a little mistake, equipment failure or unforseen quirk of nature can have severe implications.

That doesn't mean we should all take up knitting. But it might be a good time to go over your recovery gear and replace anything that's worn before you have to see whether it's good for one last time.

The problem with any description is it is subjective. What is extreme to some is driving up a waterfall while to others it is a speed bump.
However in Qld (don't know where you are) an extreme track in a 4wd park generally means you are going to do damage if you don't drive the track just right. However if you screw up enough you could die on an easy track the same as if you drove off a bitumen road in the mountains.

I think Black Duck was the last park to have a death about early 2007?

[Outlaw]

this was just posted by a member on OL but no knowing if accurate ;)

Yes it was Cityview. The man died from internal injuries suffered from exiting the vehicle as it rolled (no seatbelt). The Chain was shock loaded, worse yet the vehicle had a winch on the front of it that could have been used.

[Tank]

xxx

[Tank]

The news report says the vehicle was on an "extreme" track. That word has become so over used in advertising and lifestyle descriptions that these days you can get just about any product you can think of with "extreme" written on it.

It wasn't always that way. I spent a bit of time in the French Alps when people were starting to describe some sports as being extreme. Basically that description was applied to activities where if you made a mistake, you were probably going to die. I knew 3 guys who did just that in two months. They were all skiers. The carnage was much worse among the climbers.

The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes we tend to forget about the possible consequences of what we're doing. I don't know why a chain was being used in this particular instance, but I do know that sometimes no matter how good your gear is and how skilled you are, a little mistake, equipment failure or unforseen quirk of nature can have severe implications.

That doesn't mean we should all take up knitting. But it might be a good time to go over your recovery gear and replace anything that's worn before you have to see whether it's good for one last time.
I believe many accidents and deaths while using "Recovery" gear could be avoided by proper education of users of this gear.
For instance, manufacturers and retailers of Winches, cables, chains, tow straps almost without exception advertise the Guaranteed Breaking Strain (GBS) of their products and not the Safe Working Load (SWL) or Working Load Limit (WLL), for instance how many 10,000lb winches with 10mm wire cable do you see advertised.
A 10mm winch cable (depending on quality) would have a SWL or WLL of around 1100 (2420lbs) to 1200 kgs (2640lbs), on a good day.
The SWL or WLL is designed as a Safety Factor (SF) because once you start using and abusing this equipment it deteriorates, e.g. broken wires, kinks, frayed straps, damaged chains.
General purpose use of this gear usually has a Safety Factor (SF) of 5 or 6, which means the SWL or WLL is one fith or one sixth of the GBS to cater for damage and usual wear and tear inflicted on this stuff.
If a chain was used in this tragic case, then it should not have been used, chains are not designed to withstand sudden severe shock loads, they have NO GIVE, a wire cable has SOME GIVE, but in cases as described in this instance a Fabric strap should have been used, recovering a vehicle in circustances where a shock may be applied (inadvertently), it always pays to have a back up line attached in case the main line is broken.
When and if you go to buy a Winch, Cable, Shackles, snatch block, Straps, ASK THE SELLER IF THE FIGURES QUOTED (ADVERTISED) ARE THE SWL OR THE WLL OR THE GBS, IF THEY CANT TELL YOU DON'T BUY IT.
Only ever buy shackles that are rated, the thru bolt (pin) should be thicker than the body of the shackle and should have embossed SWL or WLL on the body of the shackle.
I would love to know exactly what happened, it's a shame we will find out from the Coroner, my sympathies to the Family, Regards Frank.

[29dinosaur]

Also do you all where a seat belt when 4WDing:
"Sadly it seems that a lack of seatbelt may have caused his death. I see so many people who insist on taking their seatbelts off as it 'restricts' them offroad. They are there for a reason... please use them."

(unverified statement on outer limits board)

[CraigE]

Very sad and my condolences to the family.
Using chains especially shock loading them is frought with danger and something I would never use if any form of shock loading was involved. You also need to know the history of the chain and how to read and interperate the markings. Its just luck no one was hurt by the chain as well. As all riggers and doggers know it is not appropriate use of a chain.
I would personally only use a chain to secure or drag after I had done a thorough inspection of the chain and knew it was suitable. Worn or elongated eyes are the first indication. Would be interesting to know if the chain was a rated item or just a hardware item. Shame the lesson had to be learnt with such catostrophic results.
:(:(

[29dinosaur]

Sound like the same incident. That's where Cityview is.
Thanks edited my post to avoid confusion..

[JDNSW]

Very sad and my condolences to the family.
Using chains especially shock loading them is frought with danger and something I would never use if any form of shock loading was involved. You also need to know the history of the chain and how to read and interperate the markings. Its just luck no one was hurt by the chain as well. As all riggers and doggers know it is not appropriate use of a chain.
I would personally only use a chain to secure or drag after I had done a thorough inspection of the chain and knew it was suitable. Worn or elongated eyes are the first indication. Would be interesting to know if the chain was a rated item or just a hardware item. Shame the lesson had to be learnt with such catostrophic results.
:(:(

Like every accident, there was a chain (no pun intended) of events, and breaking the chain anywhere would have prevented the death. Just to note a few links in this chain:-

1. Putting the wheel over the edge in the first place.
2. Use of chain in an unsuitable application.
3. Failure to use a safety line in case of the chain breaking
4. Failure to use a seat belt.
5. Perhaps use of unrated chain or fittings or use of unsafe towing points (if these rather than the chain gave way)

And so on. My point is that you cannot say, with this, as with any accidental death, that there was a single "cause" and concentrate on it to the exclusion of the other links in the chain - in the next case, that particular link may not be present, but the one(s) ignored in the present investigation may have been just as important (although in this case, from the quoted reports, the use of chain and failure to wear a seat belt would seem to be the most important factors).

Chain actually has the advantage over other materials that it does not have much give, so that injury or damage from released strain (on breakage) is unlikely, as well as being very difficult to cut against rocks etc. But as pointed out, for vehicle recovery where shock loads may occur, and the possibility of the vehicle or anything else falling, it is not a good choice, although it may be good, for example, with a vehicle bogged on flat ground, and is definitely the choice for e.g. snigging strainer posts.

John

[29dinosaur]

Best to wait for coroner's report before jumping to any speculative opinions.

Any death is tragic and if any family members or friends ever get to read this - my condolences.

[JDNSW]

Best to wait for coroner's report to jumping to any speculative opinions.

Any death death is tragic and if any family members or friends ever get to read this - my condolences.

That is largely my point - there will not be a single cause anyway. Like all of us here I agree the death was tragic, and my condolences go to the family and friends - and I hope it was not someone from here or a friend or relative of theirs.

John

[Panda]

What a tragic day for all involved.

I always wear a seatbelt when we're 4WDing, out of habit of always putting my seat belt on whenever I get in a vehicle. A good choice, as we have experienced a couple of rollovers.


Also do you all where a seat belt when 4WDing:
"Sadly it seems that a lack of seatbelt may have caused his death. I see so many people who insist on taking their seatbelts off as it 'restricts' them offroad. They are there for a reason... please use them."

(unverified statement on outer limits board)

[p38arover]

Like every accident, there was a chain (no pun intended) of events, and breaking the chain anywhere would have prevented the death.

There is a description for this. The James Reason Model - sometimes called the Swiss Cheese Model. See Colorado Firecamp - HFACS, the "Swiss cheese" model, Introduction (http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/swiss-cheese/introduction.htm)

The concept is that
In the Swiss Cheese model, an organization's defences against failure are modelled as a series of barriers, represented as slices of Swiss cheese. The holes in the cheese slices represent individual weaknesses in individual parts of the system, and are continually varying in size and position in all slices. The system as a whole produces failures when all of the holes in each of the slices momentarily align, permitting (in Reason's words) "a trajectory of accident opportunity", so that a hazard passes through all of the holes in all of the defenses, leading to a failure

If any single item changes, the incident is prevented. We use it at work, and I believe the aviation industry also uses it. It is an excellent concept.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/04/602.jpg

[JDNSW]

There is a description for this. The James Reason Model - sometimes called the Swiss Cheese Model.

Yes, I am familiar with this from aviation. It is even better than analysing accidents as a chain of circumstances because it can consider equally a wide range of factors that may not appear to relate to the investigation until you look at what could have happened if other holes had lined up. It makes complete nonsense of the idea that accidents (or indeed any other event) have a single cause. Thanks for the contribution - being limited to dial-up I did not even think of trying to explain this model without pictures!

John

[p38arover]

The news report says the vehicle was on an "extreme" track. That word has become so over used in advertising and lifestyle descriptions that these days you can get just about any product you can think of with "extreme" written on it.

One has to take media reports with a grain of salt.

This report about the death of my son had a number of inaccuracies. The journos just don't have all the facts when they write the stories:

Motorcyclist dies near Tumba - Local - General - The Daily Advertiser (http://dailyadvertiser.yourguide.com.au/news/local/general/motorcyclist-dies-near-tumba/1189634.html)

[29dinosaur]

One has to take media reports with a grain of salt.



So true - 2 separate local accidents this week witnessed by friends .... Local paper (and Sydney TV news channel) had both accidents totally distorted. The local paper was unintelligible as to what was written and what actually took place. Makes one rather sceptical about any news report about any subject... but there must be - must there not, some which are true to what took place, or am I only dreaming??

[Dave_S]

I totally agree with your comments on the media. I'm always astonished at the ability of so called journalists to report anything but the truth. They do work to very tight deadlines, but generally they behave like pigs at the trough of sensationalism. They have to write stories which sell advertising (or some other agenda) and the facts are usually not enough.

[Diego Luego]

Any 4WD novices should read and heed the advice given in this thread. Recovery and winching can be the most dangerous thing you will ever do.

Chain can snap without warning, and wire can literally cut you in half. Keep onlookers out of the way. One time I used my winch a stupid photographer wanted to video us standing between the vehicles, and was annoyed that I wouldn't continue until he was more than a wire length away.

[CraigE]

We have been using the swiss cheese model in the mining industry for some time as well. Not always foolproof.


There is a description for this. The James Reason Model - sometimes called the Swiss Cheese Model. See Colorado Firecamp - HFACS, the "Swiss cheese" model, Introduction (http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/swiss-cheese/introduction.htm)

The concept is that

If any single item changes, the incident is prevented. We use it at work, and I believe the aviation industry also uses it. It is an excellent concept.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/04/602.jpg

[CraigE]

Like every accident, there was a chain (no pun intended) of events, and breaking the chain anywhere would have prevented the death. Just to note a few links in this chain:-

1. Putting the wheel over the edge in the first place.
2. Use of chain in an unsuitable application.
3. Failure to use a safety line in case of the chain breaking
4. Failure to use a seat belt.
5. Perhaps use of unrated chain or fittings or use of unsafe towing points (if these rather than the chain gave way)

And so on. My point is that you cannot say, with this, as with any accidental death, that there was a single "cause" and concentrate on it to the exclusion of the other links in the chain - in the next case, that particular link may not be present, but the one(s) ignored in the present investigation may have been just as important (although in this case, from the quoted reports, the use of chain and failure to wear a seat belt would seem to be the most important factors).

Chain actually has the advantage over other materials that it does not have much give, so that injury or damage from released strain (on breakage) is unlikely, as well as being very difficult to cut against rocks etc. But as pointed out, for vehicle recovery where shock loads may occur, and the possibility of the vehicle or anything else falling, it is not a good choice, although it may be good, for example, with a vehicle bogged on flat ground, and is definitely the choice for e.g. snigging strainer posts.

John
John,
spot on. Appropriate use and shock loading of chains or for that matter wire cable is not ideal. I have seen some pretty ordinary chains and dedicated lifting chain at that elongated, worn or even break and cables do the same.
This is not even considering if it was just harware store chain which is scary. You would have hoped one of them would have had some knowledge or a strap.
:(