Stiffened v's cross bolted 3.5L block

[spdterence]

I have been reading a bit here and on the UK sites and came across two terms. Cross bolted and stiffened with regard to 3.5L V8 blocks. I have a 1984 RRC which I read has the stiffened block (which I think started in 1982) is this correct? So what is the fundamental difference to the cross bolted block? Does this mean the main bearing journals have a different config? ie like 4 bolt mains in US performance V8's? OR is this the one and the same thing?

Ultimately however I want to know how long my 3.5 on gas will last typically? It has about 30K on it now since it was rebuilt.

Is there a special way to drive a manual to keep it alive longer? ie rev range 2K to 3.5K only for example?

Any advice would be welcome. Terry

PS I did do a search and didn't show up anything - perhaps I used the wrong search terminology?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Terence

I await the experts information on this one, however if you want to make your V8 last longer, make sure that you have some form of upper cylinder lubricant.

It's not possible to add it to the tank like petrol/diesel fueled vehicles but you can add an automatic kit to dispense it as you go. I use a Flash Lube Kit (http://www.flashlube.com.au/en/valvesaverkit/lpg_cng.html) it is only about $85 dollars after postage.

Diana

[PLR]

G`day Terry ,

like Diana , i`ll read the experts view with interest , mine is an opinion with limited knowledge .

Basically the crossbolting is 2 extra smaller bolts that horizontally fit each main cap from opposite sides .

As far as i know the UK defence forces were/are the only ones to have use of crossbolted 3.5s .

In Aust we have the 4.0ltr and 4.6 ltr both factory crossbolts , some of the later 3.9s with B or C etc engine # suffix can be modified to take the bolts but an engineering job and i don`t consider any real need for in general use , if it was asked to peak rev for hrs on end then they would be of benefit .

Both the 4.0 and 4.6 have larger big ends and mains than the 3.5 and 3.9 ( which are the same ) don`t know about the 3.5 crossbolted engine .

Without going into it too far , the stiff blocks start around the yrs you mention though there were modifications in earlier ones to get to the stiff block , ie different places ( valley , front of block between crank and cam , main caps etc ) had more material and or webs etc through the models .

Depending on the scope of the rebuild for your engine if it was maintained through out and running only petrol you could easily expect to add a zero to the 30k and if running straight LPG the figure could be doubled .

Personally i don`t use upper cylinder lube nor do i see i need for it in yours and i don`t discount Dianas suggestion of its use because as i say i don`t use it that`s my preference but don`t say anyone else shouldn`t .

If yours has it`s original heads they should work fine with lpg and also unleaded it`s partly to do with being alloy heads and the material used in both seat and valve which also changed a bit before the time of the stiff block , don`t remember exactly but 79 or 76 rings a bell and also the stem seals it should use or lack of work better with lpg than latter type .

In its life time it will need some work on its head no matter which fuel type .

Making sure it never runs hot ( part of maintainence ) will prolong its life , though not as bigger problem as with the bigger bore engines but they will still break rings . Liner shift in these engines is not the same type of sometimes terminal problem as with the engines of the larger bore .

Cheers

[Rangier Rover]

The stiff Block was introduced in 83. Has more webbing and more meat around the cylinders. The early 3.5 and P76 4.4 if worked hard had a habit or cracking along cam bearings.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=7859&stc=1&d=1207750932

The 4 Bolt mains is exactly that. A main cap with 4 bolts. When the V8 is pushed hard they have down push on main caps and 2 bolt cant cope. So 4 Bolt became popular in Rovers case X bolt mains are stronger even if still 2 bolt.
I havn't got a pic of a cross Bolt (Opps) but are different and not as strong as 4 bolt. X bolt in 3.5 are rare some one will Know! The 4ltr and 4.6 are X bolted (Disco 2 and P38 RR)
This is not a rover V8 this is a US 4 bolt.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=7860&stc=1&d=1207751630

The 3.5 in stock form on gas with a valve saver could last up to 500000 Km even driven hard. They don't have the power to self destruct.
Hope this helps.
Cheers RR.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

G`day Terry ,

like Diana , i`ll read the experts view with interest , mine is an opinion with limited knowledge . ...

...Personally i don`t use upper cylinder lube nor do i see i need for it in yours and i don`t discount Dianas suggestion of its use because as i say i don`t use it that`s my preference but don`t say anyone else shouldn`t . ...

... Cheers
As Pete suggests upper cylinder lubricant is a personal preference and also they are not usually used in taxis.

My reasoning is that the LPG is a dry gas and with paper filtered air no moisture (humidification) is available to the valve seats at any part of the cycle. This can only add to wear. I have had my Rangie for 23 years at present and would like another 20 if possible so anything that will prolong the engine life at a reasonable cost is a good investment. Therefore I do use a lubricant.

C Ya
Diana

[spdterence]

Rangier Rover and Lotz-a-Landies - thanks for your replies on this. Amazing!.

I take it in the picture the webbing of interest has a black felt marker line either side of a crack? or is this a mark to show where the webbing was added?

You have put my mind at rest somewhat - I am really kind of chuffed with the answers here - especially that the LPG seems to extend an engines life. I take it this is due to the cleaner burning, less particulate material washed down into the oil and so forth.

On a different point but perhaps along the same lines, I notice in the UK that they seem to have an interest in the 'top hat' cylinder liner. They say it prevents the block cracking. However I didn't come across this same suggestion here in Australia. Why do you think that is Rangier?

Terry

[spdterence]

PLR you mentioned the liners are prone to shifting. I take it there is no way to improve or reduce the chances of this happening?

I appreciated the comments on the heads. I think mine should be ok as they were completely overhauled with new valves, seats done, guides springs etc. I must admit that I have not had an all alloy V8 before so I will be learning a bit. Did these engines suffer from electrolysis at all around the alloy / steel liner interface? If so is there a mandatory treatment for coolant?

You know - I am just so amazed with the amount of information and contributions from everyone ........... and the amount of people who appear not to sleep at night!:p

[Rangier Rover]

Rangier Rover and Lotz-a-Landies - thanks for your replies on this. Amazing!.

I take it in the picture the webbing of interest has a black felt marker line either side of a crack? or is this a mark to show where the webbing was added?

You have put my mind at rest somewhat - I am really kind of chuffed with the answers here - especially that the LPG seems to extend an engines life. I take it this is due to the cleaner burning, less particulate material washed down into the oil and so forth.

On a different point but perhaps along the same lines, I notice in the UK that they seem to have an interest in the 'top hat' cylinder liner. They say it prevents the block cracking. However I didn't come across this same suggestion here in Australia. Why do you think that is Rangier?

Terry They sure do put T liner's in here in Australia. Mostly the 4.6 are prone to liners failing when over heated. The smaller V8 wern't so prone to liner problems. I have heard of Jag liners being used in some cases.

Pic of a "Top hat"
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=7867&stc=1&d=1207781378


Cheers RR

[GuyG]

5 of the the liners in my 3.9 also failed :mad: but the block had also lost its hardness and had to be heat treated twice to get it back to the correct hardness.

[Rangier Rover]

5 of the the liners in my 3.9 also failed :mad: but the block had also lost its hardness and had to be heat treated twice to get it back to the correct hardness.
:eek: How were the heads?

[PLR]

PLR you mentioned the liners are prone to shifting. I take it there is no way to improve or reduce the chances of this happening?

I appreciated the comments on the heads. I think mine should be ok as they were completely overhauled with new valves, seats done, guides springs etc. I must admit that I have not had an all alloy V8 before so I will be learning a bit. Did these engines suffer from electrolysis at all around the alloy / steel liner interface? If so is there a mandatory treatment for coolant?

You know - I am just so amazed with the amount of information and contributions from everyone ........... and the amount of people who appear not to sleep at night!:p


G`day Terry

If you ever have the rocker covers off , inbetween the middle 2 rocker post you should find ERC 0216 if the std heads for model .

Generally the liner shift has a couple of main causes or reasons . If the engine is rebored they will sometimes move but sometimes not . The main cause is being overheated and why the cooling system should always be a priority .

With a 3.5 the problem is not as great because there is a larger amount ( thickness ) of alloy around each liner , because of this they don`t have the same problem as the 3.9/4.0/4.6 of cracks and resultant coolant problems .
Liner shift in a 3.5 if making a noise can be sorted but it requires the cyl head of that liner bank to be removed .

Your engine will likely have an engine #prefix 14D , i`ve got a couple in the shed , One has had all 8 liners drop , it made no noises/rattles and unless it was pulled apart and sighted it wouldn`t be known , no coolant problem , this one has been bored oversize , it will live .
Another has had one liner shift but it did make a noise and having it apart it can be see where the liner has hit the cyl head surface and dented it but no coolant problem , this one is well worn and revs and kms killed it .
Another two all these same 14Ds have no liner movement or any sign they want too , both will live .
These ones have better main caps than earlier ones .
Have another last of RR 3.5s but it hasn`t got off the trailer yet and i really should put something together before i pull another apart .

3.5ltrs don`t but it`s a fallacy that only 4.6ltr crack behind the liners all the 94mm bore engines can/will and do crack blocks . I think the reason the 4.6 gets tared with that brush is because of all the Landrover design changes the P38a cooling system went through ( in use ) . These changes caused many over heat problems which in turn caused the cracks .
The overall fault though is with Landrover and the way the liners are fitted . There has also been comment that the torque to yeid head bolts contribute ( could go on about liners/block/bolts but won`t ) . I also don`t abide with the porous block fallacy , i feel this was used as a way of limiting market pressure and giving the impression that the fault wasn`t/isn`t as bad as it is becuase if Landrover had to replace blocks out of warrantee it would probably have sent them to the wall .

I picked up a later block 3.9 last weekend it either has a gasket or liner/block problem but no rush to findout yet .

If you read UK sites you`ll see that they had many 3.9 block failures and the fault was only sort of addressed late in the new block life , around 98 i think it was .

I have one of the so called sorted 98 build 4.0ltr blocks in the shed and it aint sorted also have another one in our 85 RR 2003 build . It runs much higher compression than std for LPG and it hasn`t given any trouble as yet . If was aware of the problem with the blocks 4 yrs ago i may not have spent the money and bought a new crated 4.0ltr short but at the time it was the best option .

The only time i`d consider they may rot in the areas you mention is if there part empty and air is able to mix ( as in not in use ) or if the wrong type of or a mix of different coolants are used .

Any coolant that is recommended for use with alloy is fine , doesn`t matter really what brand , just a type that is easily obtained locally and further afield .

Best stop now .

Cheers

Peter

[Pedro_The_Swift]

All I can add is ten years useage and ownership(see below).

5K oil and filter changes, running HPR30 and at 290,000 kays, no oil usage, no smoke, no rattles,
ran it pretty much always to 3 at every gear change,, little buggars like to rev,,,

mind you thats 42 oil changes at, what, around $80 a go,,,


:eek:

[Cap]

I too do the oil/filter every 5k... in reality changing oil and filter is CHEAP insurance.

[loanrangie]

I too do the oil/filter every 5k... in reality changing oil and filter is CHEAP insurance.

And if you use an economic oil you can usually do an oil/filter change for under $20 on a 3.5.

[rovercare]

And if you use an economic oil you can usually do an oil/filter change for under $20 on a 3.5.


I can't get a Z9 Ryco for less than $5 and I get my willy sucked with my trade price, that leaves $15 for oil, what you buying for $20 total?

[GuyG]

:eek: How were the heads?

Well one was warped and needed to be pressed to straighten, 9 of the valves weren't sealing - engine builder said the hardness of the heads was fine, but the heads had previously been off the motor (prior to me purchasing the car), so they may have been replaced who knows, the motor only came out when we couldn't get access to helicoil one of the threads in the block - and down it went from there.

The crazy thing about it was that on the LR tuning machine the LR tech comment was that it was tuned to within tolerance:o

[Taz]

The way Des Hammil describes it in his "how to tune rover v8 engines" book, is that the cross bolted mains was applied to stop "fretting" of the mains block registers. In essense, it stops the bearing block from moving and chaffing on the sides - which induces wear and allows more movement thus accelerating the problem. The failure mode is that the ali block can no longer locate the steel bearing blocks at high temp (with differential thermal expansion) and the bolt threads are left to take the load resulting in cracked blocks around the threads. He says this is the main reason why 3.5's die, and the main reason 3.9/4/4.6's die is the cracking of the block between cylinders resulting in sleave movemnt as has been mentioned already

[spdterence]

So there you have it.
Maintenance Maintenance Maintenance. And make sure it doesn't ever get hot. Got it. Now I just hope that mine has had everything done right - so I look after it till it dies then I go to Peters place for a replacement?!:D

[Waxenwane]

Ok so which motors had the 4 bolt mains as opposed to the cross bolt mains?
Sorry for dragging this out, but I only discovered the thread tonight.
Very interesting reading as I want to build myself a new donk.

[WOLLAPIT85]

Only the 4.0 & 4.6 blocks are x-bolted. All other rover 8s are two bolt vertical.

[WOLLAPIT85]

the 4.0 and 4.6 are 4 bolt (2 vert and 2 hoz)

[loanrangie]

I can't get a Z9 Ryco for less than $5 and I get my willy sucked with my trade price, that leaves $15 for oil, what you buying for $20 total?

Usually get Valvoline at Kmart in a 6ltr bottle for around $14 or so and a ryco or other for $5-6.