to snorkle or not to snorkle?

[alanbettison]

Disoc 2, V8 on LPG

Not withstansing river crossings

Do the norkles' make that much difference to the performance and general betterment (is that a real word?) of the engine

thanks

[RonMcGr]

Disoc 2, V8 on LPG

Not withstansing river crossings

Do the norkles' make that much difference to the performance and general betterment (is that a real word?) of the engine

thanks

Well, it appears to help my D1 V8.
I'm getting a slight power and fuel economy since altering the exhaust and fitting a snorkel.

The cooler air has to help.

Ron

[Xavie]

I am unsure of what sort of driving you do but they are not just for water. It is worth while if you intend on doing or do any dirt road driving also. As it pulls cleaner air due to its height advantage.

If it were me I'd get one as they are pretty cheap in the scheme of things and it offers cleaner air then your stock intake does.

Performance wise I can't answer.

Xav

[PhilipA]

Funny, I have just taken mine off my RRC, after reading that the A pillars and windscreen area of the car are among the most important for air resistance reduction and that makers spend many hours testing the windscreen roof and side window /mirror interface.

I till have the cool air via a boat bilge vent on the decker panel.


I have also fitted 30 "airtabs" to the rear. It looks a bit funny but should give up to 3-4% increase in economy.

By the way cool air does not increase economy, just power. Hot air reduces power but improves economy, hence the fuel saving devices like insulators for injectors.
Regards Philip A

[Diego Luego]

"Betterment" is a word it means "an improvement over what has been the case" but "norkle" is not:D:D

[Col.Coleman]

wouldn't norkles be little norks

[Slunnie]

I don't think the norkels made any improvement to to performance/economy of my TD5. It has however improved the life of the engine by reducing dusting and by keeping the water out.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I have also fitted 30 "airtabs" to the rear. It looks a bit funny but should give up to 3-4% increase in economy.

regards Philip A


Is this "Secret Phillip" stuff??:eek:
or can we see PICS?:cool:

[roverrescue]

Is it possible that no-one has ever tested the claim "high intake = less dust".... on cape roads and other dirt roads Ive been on, if you are driving in the dust (not advised but happens) i reckon the "nork" will pick up just as much if not more dust than an in gaurd... and if you are worried about dust kick up when on dirt... going in the gaurd, why is the engine bay not layed with dust like the outside of the vehicle and it has oil to stick to aswell?

I use a "norkle" cos tdi's dont like drinking water... i reckon it probably makes the air cleaner work harder though... would like to see others opinions.

steve

[waynep]

Here is a norkel

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/04/202.jpg

[Col.Coleman]

The up high theory comes from the case that the front wheels kick up the dust and depending on what speed you are doing at the time to how quickly it rises and where your intake is.The further away from the dirt the further it has to travel to reach the intake unless off course you are following some-one;At road speeds this might not be too much of a problem as you should have a constant supply of fresh air. When 4wding at low speeds the hot air from the 3 heatexchangers at the front of your vehicle as well as the radiated heat from the engine itself warm the air directed into your intake. Also the dust from a rotating fan is kicked up and clouds the engine bay. So therefore the higher and further away from heat and dust generators you can get your intake the cleaner and cooler it should be. I leave the standard intake on for town and road work but fit a pre-cleaner when playing in the dirt at lower speeds or going west of say Cunnamulla where I know it's going to be dust, dust, dust. The main benifit of a snorkle is for water as most modern vehicles air intakes are behind the headlights. Trucks have the high intakes and most aren't going to be troubled by water so I think the hieght idea might carry some merit.
It is a range rover though, so we don't want to look like we actually use it do we:p

[Psimpson7]

I really think you will get no performance increase atall with a snorkle. Probably a slight reduction if anything.

IMO the Ram air effect is absoloute nonsense at road speeds, and would be more than counteracted by the extra length of pipework the air has to go down.

Some motorbikes run Ram-air type intakes and I think even they dont get any benefit until they are doing fairly high speeds, and it their cases the inlet tract would be very short and direct. Snorkles arent either.

My TD5 was definetley slower with a Safari Snorkle.

For water and probably dust however very much worthwhile.

Pete.

[Col.Coleman]

the '87 Kawasaki ZXR750 was the first production bike to have ram air tubes fitted under the rear vision mirrors and into the airbox, and since then just about every performance bike from then on has adopted the idea. The idea is to create a positive air pressure in the airbox so that when the intake valve opens and the piston travells down increasing cylinder volume the positive air pressure allows a slight increase in air volume to enter the cylinder than would be the case with negative pressure. This is the idea behind superchargers and turbo's except it relies on the vehicle passing through the air. Performance increases depends on air temp, density, air speed and direction. On a motorbike you could measure the the difference between a static run on a dyno with no air pressure and real life timing conditions using force meters and timing calculations on road. In your 4wd I doubt you would notice the difference that much but it would be of benifit if only slightly. Similar to the difference between a dirty and clean air filter. It is about having more available air to enter the chamber.

[Hucksta]

Interesting thread.

I have been thinking of fitting a snorkel for a while and have been ding a little bit of research myself.

Yep, there is some merit re the dust and water thing (more water than dust though). I read in an earlier reply that someone mentioned the areo dynamics of the window/pillar/bonnet issue.

Now, i don't think that Landys are the most wind friendly design around, however, if you are looking to fit a snorkel purely for performance value of say 3 or 5% (fuel eco and performance) then is it probable that this gain would be cancelled out due to the loss of the areo dynamic ability. Just look at the water that runs off that area when driving in the rain ..(pause for thought) ... hhmmmm.

Col COLEMAN, you mentioned a pre cleaner, what is this please (to lazy to google it) does it work and serve its purpose .....

I'm now leaning more towards not fitting a snorkel due to the fact that some gains will be cancelled out due to other factors. Although i agree that it may assist in the health of my engine long term and I guess that if you are a hard core 4 wheeling dude (ie - deep water crossing and bull dust driving) then a snorkel is probably not a bad idea .... Don't know much ....

Not much dust and water at the polo anyway (spoken in a clipped british accent) so my idiot mates tell me from their COMMONdores

Hucksta

[Col.Coleman]

In my case my defender has the aerodynamics of a shoebox so it doesn't matter. In saying that the airtec is much more streamlined than the safari. A pre cleaner is a bowl that you fit to the top of the snorkel that removes most of the coarse dirt before the air travels down to your standard air filter. come in 6 and 10 inch diameters and worth every cent. On a long dusty trip you can see how much crap it saves your main filter from having to deal with, extending its life and saving you heaps. You just lift the lid, empty the bowl and stick it back on. easy peasy

[Diego Luego]

Snorkels make water crossings a lot less scary and the snorkel intake is usually above the worst of the dust cloud.

BUT: the main reason to have a snorkel is that other 4WD owners take you more seriously. I know I am going to suffer from an inferiority complex now I drive a RRS (without a snorkel).I'm thinking of getting a snorkel just so Defender owners will wave.

[cookiesa]

Plus it is a great reason to cut a great big hole in your FENDER!

If you like to drive with the windows down a lot (or your partner does on her side....) Another thing to consider in a diesel is it will make intake noise a LOT more noticeable, I don't mind it but the other half has complained under accelaration (these things are relative!) it is noiser

Having now been very happy it is there (due to unexpected deep water crossings) I wouldn't be without one now... feel sooo much better driving through flood waters or creeks knowing it is there

[JDNSW]

Interesting thread. I have always been of the view that the principal advantage of a snorkel is to reduce the dust intake. It is worth noting that almost all tractors acquired high level air intakes by about 1920, purely from experience, and all were equipped with air cleaners at a time when this was unusual if not unheard of for road vehicles (and remember few roads were sealed then).

In my case I consider a snorkel would be useful - my engine bay is usually deeply covered in dust, but the air cleaner seems to be very effective and the dump valve removes most of the dust. The down side is that it would be on the driver's side, effectively widening the A-pillar, and increasing noise, as well as increasing intake drag and aerodynamic drag. The only real advantage would be longer periods between servicing the air cleaner.

Very few owners actually drive in water deep enough to make a snorkel necessary - and to do so you are way beyond a depth the manufacturer countenances (for example on my 110 they say no more than about two feet depth, which is no threat to the air intake just below the top of the mudguard about 20" higher). I have actually driven through water above the top of the mudguard without any getting in the intake, but would not want to do so for any distance.

John

[cookiesa]

Does anyone have an explanation for the phenomenum (sp?) that makes you want to turn the wipers on when the water is nearly half way up the windscreen????

[mrapocalypse]

I think I speak on behalf of many...

I just want one. I don't care what they do!

[PhilipA]

I think I speak on behalf of many...

I just want one. I don't care what they do!

Well I suppose they do look a bit Phallic.

I fitted mine because a friend had hydrauliced his RRC 3.5 going through a puddle on an outback road at 80Kmh. But I reckon the engine would stop before the water gets to the decker panel, so replaced it with the vent from Whitworths.
With regard to ram air. I measured about 0.5 inches of water positive pressure at 80Kmh on the input side of the air cleaner, ie bugger all. In any case the throttle does not allow the pressure into the engine.I think it does subjectively make the engine a little more responsive at small throttle openings

On a Superbike in a race with WOT at 280KMh there is a big difference, I think about 10 or so bhp on a Kawa 1100.
Regards Philip A

[RonMcGr]

I noticed there are a lot of answers to the original posters thread.
Quite a few do not answer the guys question, on hid Discovery Series Two.

Aerodynamics is not an issue, there are none!
A Discovery is a "Blunt Vehicle", not like a Range Rover.

The air cleaner pick up is a small "reversed trumpet" behind the front headlight.

On this type of Land Rover, it does help in getting a free (unrestricted) flow, of cool, clean air.
I am very happy with the results on my Discovery.

[mrapocalypse]

I noticed there are a lot of answers to the original posters thread.
Quite a few do not answer the guys question, on hid Discovery Series Two.

Aerodynamics is not an issue, there are none!
A Discovery is a "Blunt Vehicle", not like a Range Rover.

The air cleaner pick up is a small "reversed trumpet" behind the front headlight.

On this type of Land Rover, it does help in getting a free (unrestricted) flow, of cool, clean air.
I am very happy with the results on my Discovery.
Now that is a good post!

[PhilipA]

Au contraire.
A lot more aerodynamic work went into a Disco 2 than a RRC.
Look at an RRC and you will see a bludy great drain gutter over the windscreen.
I was going to cut it off until I discovered there were three layers spot welded together, one the bit that bolts to the frame, a sandwich filling of the roof, then the gutter on top. If I had cut it off then The roof would have flapped around. This is a result of it being designed in 1976.

The Disco has a much nicer transition there and apparently this is one of the most important transitions that determine how much air remains attached flow over the roof. You will see that new 4x4s have a much "faster" windscreen, with a very gentle transition to the roof. the Holden Captiva as a great example. It is also teardrop shaped, with a narrowing of the back and the rear roof sloping down

The Discos rear windows are much flusher with the body than a RRC and the corners are much gentler. The grille is much smoother .
It is these types of details that determine the Cx.

It would be unbelievable if a Disco2 did not have a lot of aero work on it, as by 1996-7 fuel prices were quite high. Certainly I have seen reports of extensive aero work on the 38A which was earlier than the Disco 2.
Regards Philip A

[JamesH]

(for example on my 110 they say no more than about two feet depth, which is no threat to the air intake just below the top of the mudguard about 20" higher). I have actually driven through water above the top of the mudguard without any getting in the intake, but would not want to do so for any distance.

John

I'm not sure I understand this. I thought that the intake on 110/Defenders was the intake vent was on the side of the front fender (drivers or passenger side depending on year/model), not on the top of the fender. Am I mistaken? The snorkel on my Defender sits over the vent that was there beforehand.

When you do some crossings water comes up over the front albeit briefly and along the sides. I would have thought the raised intake would definitely make this less of a worry.

[sam_d]

I put a snorkel on my Disco after doing one short river crossing where the water was a little bit deeper than I was comfortable with.

I decided the cost of the snorkel was less than the potential damage that could be caused and the aggro saved by hopefully not getting stuck in a river because I got water in the air intake.

[loanrangie]

Funny, I have just taken mine off my RRC, after reading that the A pillars and windscreen area of the car are among the most important for air resistance reduction and that makers spend many hours testing the windscreen roof and side window /mirror interface.

I till have the cool air via a boat bilge vent on the decker panel.


I have also fitted 30 "airtabs" to the rear. It looks a bit funny but should give up to 3-4% increase in economy.

By the way cool air does not increase economy, just power. Hot air reduces power but improves economy, hence the fuel saving devices like insulators for injectors.
Regards Philip A

Aerodynamics and RRC in the same sentence now thats funny, i think LR was looking at a chipped brick when they designed the RRC. The "norkle " would be the least of your worries !

[JDNSW]

I'm not sure I understand this. I thought that the intake on 110/Defenders was the intake vent was on the side of the front fender (drivers or passenger side depending on year/model), not on the top of the fender. Am I mistaken? The snorkel on my Defender sits over the vent that was there beforehand.

When you do some crossings water comes up over the front albeit briefly and along the sides. I would have thought the raised intake would definitely make this less of a worry.

The 110 and at least early Defenders have the inlet in the top of the mudguard (cars do not have fenders in this country), but I was referring to the actual intake on my 110, which, while it gets its air from the RH vent on top of the mudguard, is actually just in front of it and facing forward. Not sure about later Defenders, I can't say I have noticed.

As you say, water does come over the front and along the sides - but only well beyond the depth countenanced by the manufacturer, which as I said is only about two feet (600mm). The raised intake would, as you say, make it less risky, but I would point outthat unless other precautions are taken, your axle and gearbox breathers will be under water, as will your alternator and fan, (the latter will not take kindly to it if the engine is turning fast) as well as the breather on your power steering reservoir and sundry electrical fittings which while splashproof, will not stand immersion (least of all the ECU). There is a lot more to preparation for deep wading than a raised air intake!

John

[alanbettison]

For all the contributors to my norkle gaf, thanks

The replies just cracked me up

You put a smile on my "ial"

[cookiesa]

Indeed there are.. but almost pointless without a snorkle or substitute!

As for Fender it was actually a play on words... obviously missed!

[Slunnie]

I noticed there are a lot of answers to the original posters thread.
Quite a few do not answer the guys question, on hid Discovery Series Two.

Aerodynamics is not an issue, there are none!
A Discovery is a "Blunt Vehicle", not like a Range Rover.

The air cleaner pick up is a small "reversed trumpet" behind the front headlight.

On this type of Land Rover, it does help in getting a free (unrestricted) flow, of cool, clean air.
I am very happy with the results on my Discovery.
disco2 is not setup like that. It draws air from the inner guard and there is no reversed trumpet setup in the system.I also agree with a previous comment suggesting a performance decrease on the D2, and I believe this is due to a poor match between the safari snorkel and the inner guard port which further restricts and already narrow passage.

[alanbettison]

thanks for the replies

you made my day

[gumby190]

I have a snorkel on my old Series 2 & it has a positive effect on performance, the motor is a Holden 186, temps seem to have gone down a bit as well.

The only problem I can see is that it sucks like a $2.00 wh#*e, some of the bugs it sucks in are pretty big. I reckon I could vacuum my floor with my snorkel.
But really the price was the selling point - $10.55.:D

[PhilipA]

Aerodynamics and RRC in the same sentence now thats funny, i think LR was looking at a chipped brick when they designed the RRC. The "norkle " would be the least of your worries !

Sigh ,yeah.
But I can but try to get better economy.
With all the things I have done and tried, It should be making fuel by now.

I also filled in all the "vents" in the spoiler.
Next I think I will make a bit of an undertray.

I am seeing some results. Coming back from Canberra I got 16.2L per 100Km at 110 most of the way towing my 550KG Campomatic over the Range (without the airtabs fitted yet.)
Of course going to Canberra into about a 60Kmh headwind I got 20L per 100Km.
To recap
RRC 92 3.9
Thor Manifold, Unichip, Oxygen sensors,modded heads,raised intake,Filled in spoiler,NOW 30 x "airtabs", This on 245.75x16 ATKOs and 2 inch lift
Regards Philip A

[waynep]

Is that a custom hand made jobbie type norkel Wayne? :D:D

that opens many possibilities but I'm not going there ... .;)

[mrapocalypse]

disco2 is not setup like that. It draws air from the inner guard and there is no reversed trumpet setup in the system.I also agree with a previous comment suggesting a performance decrease on the D2, and I believe this is due to a poor match between the safari snorkel and the inner guard port which further restricts and already narrow passage.

So what about the other brands Like from TJm or Oppy Lock?

[Slunnie]

So what about the other brands Like from TJm or Oppy Lock?
Thats a really good question which I don't know the answer to. I can't imagine them being worse for fit.

[RonMcGr]

disco2 is not setup like that. It draws air from the inner guard and there is no reversed trumpet setup in the system.I also agree with a previous comment suggesting a performance decrease on the D2, and I believe this is due to a poor match between the safari snorkel and the inner guard port which further restricts and already narrow passage.

Well that setup could be a problem.
I did not use all that was provided with the snorkel kit.
I bought a flexible "Turbo" hose and used that instead, along with matching PVC pipe.

[Slunnie]

Ron is that a D1? I really like the way you've done it and it should breath really well. Do you have an external pic of the snorkel, or does it look standard from the outside? I haven't got any D2 pics... but just picture asthma.

[RonMcGr]

Ron is that a D1? I really like the way you've done it and it should breath really well. Do you have an external pic of the snorkel, or does it look standard from the outside? I haven't got any D2 pics... but just picture asthma.

Yes it is a D1 :D
The snorkel was the cheaper one.
The Disco is running a lot better since I fitted it.
I have enclosed a pic of the snorkel plus one of the vehicle in tow :)

Cheers,
Ron

[RonMcGr]

And another closer up.

[blitz]

Part of the reason why I put the norkle on was to try to improve the fuel economy along with extractors but because it makes such a cool note I drive it like a 17 year old who has stolent it.:D

after about 6 years of having it I can make these points

it is better for deep water crossings - really better if you end up with water coming up your windscreen

in combination with the extractors and larger exhaust the performance is a bit better, fuel economy is a bit better

I have to replace the filter less often than before I put it on so it does help get clean air into it.

Finally as much as I hate to admit to it yes it does look like a 'real' 4X4 with it.

Blythe

[Slunnie]

Thanks for this Ron, a great job. I wonder if the D2 can be modified in a similar way.

[Xavie]

I have a snorkel on my old Series 2 & it has a positive effect on performance, the motor is a Holden 186, temps seem to have gone down a bit as well.

The only problem I can see is that it sucks like a $2.00 wh#*e, some of the bugs it sucks in are pretty big. I reckon I could vacuum my floor with my snorkel.
But really the price was the selling point - $10.55.:D

it's a piece of house guttering man! I have an old fly screen you could cut up and silicone to the "intake" if you like then you could just brush it clean every few kays.. ;) hahaha

Xav

[Dave110]

we a have a snorkle on our Defender as it came with it the thing to remember is that 'a snorkle does not a submarine make' too much water comes under the doors in a Defender :o

[cookiesa]

My sierra had the opposite problem.... too deep and it would float, remember going to Litchfield with some friends via the northern entrance and due to the depth of the river crossing we filled the back and the front floors with rocks until it stopped floating (2 attempts from memory) then drove through... got a great laugh from the AAT kings 4x4 bus that was waiting for us on the other side, driver wanted to know how many it took as we were unloading them! (and yes they were there later in the day for use on our way home!)

[RonMcGr]

My sierra had the opposite problem.... too deep and it would float, remember going to Litchfield with some friends via the northern entrance and due to the depth of the river crossing we filled the back and the front floors with rocks until it stopped floating (2 attempts from memory) then drove through... got a great laugh from the AAT kings 4x4 bus that was waiting for us on the other side, driver wanted to know how many it took as we were unloading them! (and yes they were there later in the day for use on our way home!)

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

[feraldisco]

disco2 is not setup like that. It draws air from the inner guard and there is no reversed trumpet setup in the system.I also agree with a previous comment suggesting a performance decrease on the D2, and I believe this is due to a poor match between the safari snorkel and the inner guard port which further restricts and already narrow passage.

The Airtec probably matches up better and also feeds into the guard at about 135 degrees rather than at a right angle like the Safari. However, I think the fundamental problem if the ridiculously small opening in the inner guard. To this end, my preferred option is to fit a custom snorkel using intercooler flexi-hose and chromed 3-4 inch pipe. This way I'd have a straight through 3-4 inch system (i.e. the inner guard hole would be increased in size).

[charliebrisbane]

wouldn't norkles be little norks

I dont know I'll ask my wife. God i hope she doesnt read that.

Charlie

[RonMcGr]

Now here is a good example of a V8 that needs a snorkel :D

Land Rover Discovery V8 - Google Video (http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=Land+Rover+Discovery+V8&hl=en&sitesearch=&start=30)

[cookiesa]

Is that the right link? The video I saw was probably about tyre depth at most

[RonMcGr]

Is that the right link? The video I saw was probably about tyre depth at most

Thats it.
The whole front goes under water at one stage.:)