Coroner finds off-road park management poses danger

[WhiteD3]

Coroner finds off-road park management poses danger - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/02/2234027.htm)

Black Duck valley I think?

[weeds]

yep black duck...but i think its still up to the driver to get out and assess any track that they are about to take on, there is always the option to turn around and find another track

as for the motor bikes, well thats just asking for trouble

[numpty]

I couldn't believe some of the halfwits interviewed....." we like to come here and have fun, but no-one told us it was dangerous.......there should be signs up or something....."

More people who wont take responsibility for their own actions.

[Utemad]

I couldn't believe some of the halfwits interviewed....." we like to come here and have fun, but no-one told us it was dangerous.......there should be signs up or something....."

More people who wont take responsibility for their own actions.

Yep I saw the news segment on Nine. I thought it was hilarious some of the things they said such as what you quoted.

[incisor]

unbelievable isnt it....

anything to avoid being responsible for their own actions, esp if there is a $ in it for them..

and the legal eagles are just rubbing their hands with glee....

[seqfisho]

It will be the beginning of the end:o

Just wait for the fallout from the insurance companies, they will price the liability insurance out of the reach of these parks as they are mostly family run business.

Firstly the bush is locked up and now the parks will be forced to close, it will never end until the thought/fun police have their way and the idiots who wont take responsibility for their own actions that are helping them all the way.

The most amazing thing is the one thing that attracts all the riders there is the difficulties/extremism of the tracks and dont all MotorX riders think they are the crusty demons and can jump/ride anything:p

[WhiteD3]

Coroner recommends motorcycle park safety improvements - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/05/2235521.htm)

[dobbo]

Well thats googled all of us in the future, precedent has been set, I have never been to a 4wd park, my insurance won't cover me on private property, however it will cover me across the Simpson desert or Cape York (and there are less idiots there).

[isuzurover]

Track Report: In response to expert opinion during the Coroner's inquest we are limiting use at the park. Only tracks 1,2,4 and the junior and adult mini bikes areas will be open. No trail riding or 4wding, no FMX or Mountain MX track. updated 7:45pm Friday 2 MAY 08

From the Black Duck website - shame... Hope it isn't the first of many.

[WhiteD3]

....across the Simpson desert or Cape York (and there are less idiots there).

Yeah but Dobbo, then you'd struggle to find someone else to blame for any mishap, misjudgment, poor planning, lack of skill, over confidence or stupidity on your part (I mean that in the nicest possible way:)).

I mean, its becoming the great Australian way.....make a blunder and find someone to blame. These people that go to these parks and get hurt (200+ was mentioned in one of the reports I saw on the news) and then say...oh bugger, they should have told me/had a sign up/given me training, etc.

Sorry, I'm ranting, but it gives me the irates.

[harry]

just watch the others follow.
and if i may be so rude as to say that i have never received a receipt for any 4wd park access, and have seen the parks degrade through lack of maintenance, as they gobble in the dollars.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

This is not fair. It's just crazy!

[dobbo]

Yeah but Dobbo, then you'd struggle to find someone else to blame for any mishap, misjudgment, poor planning, lack of skill, over confidence or stupidity on your part (I mean that in the nicest possible way:)).



Trust me, I work for a Public service.;)

I'm sure I could find someone to blame.

[dungarover]

I haven't been to Black Duck for a few years but the last time I was there the tracks were so badly erroded and little to no matenance was done that even the most experienced 4WDer would have though twice in taclking tracks as such. The park seemed to be more caterd for bikes rather than 4WD's and many clubs were advoiding the place like the plague because the motorbike rider are careless, rude and generally inticed yobbos to frequent the place (that's the way i felt when I was last there)

Plus may I add the cost of a day's wheeling was far too expensive, many of there competitors were much cheaper at the time.

I agree with all that people need to take resposibility and need to use a fair whack of common sense when visiting places such as 4WD parks but the park owners need to make sure that unsafe tracks are closed off to either re-generate or pave way for safer alternatives. it's a two way street. they're happy to take your money but not offer much if anything in return.

I can see another 4WD park going the same way (those whov'e been there know where).

Trav

[harry]

I can see another 4WD park going the same way (those whov'e been there know where).

Trav
i see in my crystal ball one south of here,
no receipts, so where is the money going mr tax man, no track maintenance, 'cause the money goes somewhere else, and why do want a receipt - to show me that all is above board and there is a good chance that we are covered insurance wise.

however we can only hope that the recent events at black duck and the more recent death at boonah[?] do not affect the insurance costs of the operators of these places and we can go to them for a good trip on safe tracks.
------note here also that we have to take some responsibility for our own actions----
we do take our vehicles into some tricky situations and there is the possibility of an accident anywhere, and if it was my fault or yours, then i hope we have the conviction to admit that.

just back to track maintenance, for those here that might be watching from their 4wd park,
the general 4wd owner enjoys a challenge and a trip to these parks to see what we he can achieve with his vehicle in accordance with his skill level.
some of us don't know what our skill level is.
by maintaining the tracks and cleaning up the dug out parts that only highly modified vehicle can use we can have the standard vehicles also pass through these tracks with out damage or accidents.
but very carefully restrict the tough parts to modified vehicles so the novice cannot go there.
i have often been on a park track that has been rutted out to much for the normal 4wd, but not marked as such on the park map, as the track maintenance has not been kept up
all the above is my thoughts and not gclro policy.

now, gclro committee has already chosen not to use a park due to lack of maintenance and cancelled a club trip because of that.
we will endeavour to monitor the parks and plan our trips with safety in mind as usual.

[rovercare]

What's a 4wd park?:D

Sux to be a QLDer:p

[DRanged]

I have only been there once and that was enough. Some of the tracks have no room for error at all. So that would explain why I have never led a trip there. But it all comes back to the person behind the wheel. It soley rests on the drivers decision to attempt a track or not. lets face it we have all been on tracks that could pose a problem if something goes pear shaped. I think we should get behind the 4wd parks that do the right thing and are set up for 4wders only. We have to look after ourselves, too many people trying to ban us already.

Justin

[dungarover]

Most of the parks do but a couple are ripping into us by charging like a wounded bull for bugger-all in return.

Rovercare- Most of the public access areas are either sanatised or more suited to RAV4's. Still a few good places (like Glasshouse Mtns) so the parks are the only alternatives if you want to do some real 4WDing.

There's always Northen NSW, good stuff in some parts still.

Trav

[weeds]

What's a 4wd park?:D

Sux to be a QLDer:p

you guys have the high country at your back door:(

[rovercare]

^^^^yep, no need for silly parks:)

If I moved (which I wont) it'd be to









Tas:p

[foz.in.oz]

What's a 4wd park?:D

Sux to be a QLDer:p

I'm a Queenslander and I know of two, Landcruiser Park near Jimna and another at Manar Park near Gayndah

Ray

[Utemad]

i see in my crystal ball one south of here,
no receipts, so where is the money going mr tax man, no track maintenance, 'cause the money goes somewhere else, and why do want a receipt - to show me that all is above board and there is a good chance that we are covered insurance wise.

Then there are parks like The Springs where he pours his life and funds into the place.

[trobbo]

This just gets me so angry that I want to SCREEEAAAM.
Sure I accept that track grading will make it easier for people to know when they are going to come across tough or easy obstacles, but when wheelin in the 'untamed' environment you have no idea what you are going to come across and you have to assess each and every obstacle and determine whether you can pass safely, want to have a go and risk bending your truck and possibly injuring yourself or turn around and find another way. Why then should the park owner, who is doing the public a favour by giving them somewhere to enjoy their past time penalised for giving you exactly what you want and exactly what you would find in the national parks and state forests we drive in (when outside of QLD).

Some people really need to grow up.

rant over

[Shonky]

There are two side to this coin as far as I am concerned.

Having never been to a 4WD Park, I can only echo the comments of those who have said that perhaps the trails should be maintained to the level that a standard or lightly modified vehicle can traverse them, and there should be seperate, signposted tracks for the wild custom trucks.

By the same token, some people need to grow up! As far as I am concerned, if you are old enough to hold a drivers licence / own a vehicle you are old enough to take responsibility for your own actions and accept the consequences of your own stupidity.

The park may well have been dangerous, but he made a choice to attempt to do whatever it was that got him killed.

Grrr...

[CraigE]

Of course it poses a danger. Everything poses a danger. It all comes down to if it is an acceptable risk and if we are prepared to take that risk. I believe that by taking part in any particular activity we have taken an assumption of risk already and it is up to the individual taking part to determine or find any relevant amount of risk associated with said activity. It was actually a fairly stupid and naive statement for a coroner to make.
:mad:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Of course it poses a danger. Everything poses a danger. It all comes down to if it is an acceptable risk ...:mad:
If people are allowed to jump out of perfectly good aeroplanes, then hands off 4 wheeled recreation.

Diana

[Pedro_The_Swift]

so its not as simple as issuing an entry ticket with the normal disclaimer on the back?

or "signing in" , absolving the owners from all blame?

[WhiteD3]

so its not as simple as issuing an entry ticket with the normal disclaimer on the back?

or "signing in" , absolving the owners from all blame?

Unfortunately no. You drive into a shopping centre carpark and they have a disclaimer, but they still have to provide a safe environment. The disclaimer covers them in case your vehicle is damaged by another or you scrape the wall. It would not work for them if say you drove off the top of the carpark and crashed to your fiery death 10 floors below because they didn't bother to put a barrier in place.

[Dave_S]

I'm curious. How many of us would really agree to sign away all legal rights for anything that happened at a 4WD park? I've been to ski areas where the disclaimer is over a full page of small print long. They also have a trail grading system, rules of conduct and employees who throw you out if you endanger others.

Personally I'd be happy to sign away my rights, as I think I can make my own decisions and be responsible for the consequences.

Also, how would you feel if 4WD parks were set up in such a way that there were no underlying assets of real value and no insurance, so that if you sued them there wouldn't be any money and no insurer to satisfy a judgement?

[isuzurover]

I'm curious. How many of us would really agree to sign away all legal rights for anything that happened at a 4WD park? I've been to ski areas where the disclaimer is over a full page of small print long. They also have a trail grading system, rules of conduct and employees who throw you out if you endanger others.

Personally I'd be happy to sign away my rights, as I think I can make my own decisions and be responsible for the consequences.

Also, how would you feel if 4WD parks were set up in such a way that there were no underlying assets of real value and no insurance, so that if you sued them there wouldn't be any money and no insurer to satisfy a judgement?

I am perfectly happy to personally take full responsibility for my own actions, so yes.

You are the expert - but wouldn't that kind of setup be very difficult to do - couldn't some liability still be proven against the landOWNER?

[29dinosaur]

Still a few good places (like Glasshouse Mtns).....

Wow there are some mean tracks there.

[Bushwanderer]

Hi All,
Two terms:
- "Duty of Care", &
- "Negligence"

No matter what the "disclaimer" you (as the user or customer) sign, you cannot sign away your rights to have (in this case a 4wd park) an owner/operator observe his/her necessary duty of care wrt the users. What that duty extends to in the case of a 4wd park is a minefield and will only be satisfied by one (or many) court cases.

Again, if the 4wd park owner/operator is found to be negligent in its operation of the park, no disclaimer signed by a user will protect them.

The coroner is unable to make a decision regarding "duty of care" or "negligence", it must be decided by a civil court.

Best Wishes,

[4wd4fun]

Have checked out the Black duck site and the whole mountain is closed while they have an expert look at the tracks, See the Black Duck Valley Trail Map for further details. Yes there are some bike tracks open.
They do not show any 4WD pictures or details to promote it as a 4wd park unless I am missing something. I used to attend Black Duck 4WD Park app once a month back in 1994 -1996 and there were very few accidents and not many bikes at all as it was promoted as a 4wd park and if we thought it was to dangerous we would not attempt it. Now by what I see, it is a bike park and after watching YouTube attached to Black Duck site I can see why bike riders are getting injured every week end which is what we here in our local paper as the ambulance from Gatton has to attend more then once nearly every weekend which is a lot of driving for them by what you read in paper. Have not gone back due to being told about the amount of bikes and near misses with bikes coming around corners I like to drive and watch where my tyres are going and enjoy the scenery, not watching for bikes comming at me or past me.

Just my five cents, Cheers Allan.

[dungarover]

As I said, the unfortunate death of two people doesn't replace the concept of common sense. That is is the problem with some 4WDers who get themselves into all sorts of strife because they're not equipped to do so or there ego gets the better of them :(

If I did injure myself or kill myself (touch wood), I wouldn't hold the park liable it's my own judgement and I have to live with the consequenses (or my family).

It doesn't matter how good, ballsy, egotistical or just plain foolhardy you are as a 4WDer, you'll always come across something that is not wise to traverse. I always apply the lodgic if I feel uncomfortable, don't fo it. The alternative is that'll always end in tears or 'dickhead' gong amongst most people.

BDV was once a good 4WD park and I hope the owners do sort out the issues and can make it safe once again. Til then it's a boycot from me personally.

Trav

[CraigE]

The biggest problem is even if the landowner is exonerated in a court and found not to have contributed or caused an incident, civil court is another kettle of fish. Decisions can be made in a civil court and rarely rely on legal fact, but a finding can quite easily be made against the landholder because of injuries sustained by the claimant or their families. It is thess judgements that destroy businesss, increase insurances to the point where a business is not viable and eventually lock us out of any sort of recreational activity that has any risk.
There should be legislation in place to protect people and businesses from these sorts of findings. This is not to say they should be protected from negligence. But if they are not found criminally liable or negligent a civil claim should be automatically denied as well and the people involved should have to rely on their own insurance.

[Dave_S]

I am perfectly happy to personally take full responsibility for my own actions, so yes.

You are the expert - but wouldn't that kind of setup be very difficult to do - couldn't some liability still be proven against the landOWNER?

It is difficult, but not impossible. A lot of work has been done on structures/strategies to minimise the prospects of someone who sues for injuries sustained during a dangerous activity. Lawyers don't like advising their clients to sue in circumstances where, even if you win, there is very little to collect.

I won't go into it in detail (and for every circumstance it is different), but aspects of a litigation management plan could include establishing a special purpose company to run the business, making sure that company has very limited assets and corresponding debt, isolating the landowner from liability for the activity (not impossible) and even running the business with little or no insurance.

Obviously you should also have a very well crafted exclusion of liability statement signed by everyone who enters the property and have adults agree that they will take responsibility for children (and indemnify the business accordingly).

The business should also get advice about where its duties lie and how best to manage the place so that if someone does get hurt, the business can say it did all things that could have been reasonably expected of it in the circumstances.

Basically, it is much easier to be a defendant than people would have you believe. But you do have to have a proper, thorough strategy from the outset and run the place professionally.