Disco 2 V8 Towing

[Grumndriva]

My wife and I are considering buying a 20 foot caravan which will weigh in at close to 2400kg when loaded. The tow vehicle is a 4.0 litre automatic in sound mechanical condition. Based on our experience towing a camper of half that weight, I am concerned at the Disco V8's lack of torque when it comes to hills.

Anyone have any experience towing that sort of weight with a 4 litre V8?

Cheers,

Terry

[Taz]

Crikey! I dream of the torque in a V8 D2 auto for towing. Try towing your van up hills with a Tdi - and I know a few mates who happily do exactly that and are quick to tell you what economy they are getting, but not how fast they go up hills. I think I understand where your coming from - not wanting to hold up traffic up long hills, however the 340Nm of the D2V8 should be well above your average jap tow beast, especially because the torque is produced at low revs (2400 from memory?) which the jap vehicles cannot match (unless it's a twin hair drier LC v8 diesel worth 4x as much as your D2).

[tempestv8]

Hi Terry,

I tow a 1100 kg Jayco Hawk Outback plus about another 200 kgs of various bits and pieces, and the 4.0 Disco II V8 auto struggles up the hills that you will find on highways like the Hume. And if you fit larger tyres like 32" diameter tyres (Land Rover DII has 29" diameter tyres as standard regardless of wheel size) you'll find that your acceleration will be blunted even more.

Approaching big hills, the cruise control needs to be turned off because the engine will rev itself nuts when the gearbox downshifts from top gear, torque converter locked to 3rd gear or even 2nd gear. It's not uncommon to need 4000 rpm or high to get up some of those hills. You'll need to have ear plugs when the engine revs its head off, and also a big credit card, because the motor will chew its way through a LOT of fuel. Expect your fuel consumption to be bad. I estimate it will blow out to around 24-25 litres per 100 kms on 95 or 98 octane RON or close to 30 litres per 100 kms on LPG.

Also expect your cooling system to be worked to the limit. If your cooling system is less than adequate, I suggest very strongly that you fit an aftermarket early warning system in the event of low coolant. A friend of mine has also fitted a transmission fluid temperature gauge and it is most interesting to see how much the fluid temperatures fluctuate. When the torque converter is unlocked, the fluid heats up very quickly. So be sure that your auto trans oil cooler is clean and not clogged up with dried up mud, if you happen to like visiting bog holes! :angel:

The V8 makes the most torque around 2700 rpm, so I'd just leave the gearbox in 3rd gear most of the time. The beauty of the ZF4HP22E gearbox is that it has lock up capability in 3rd gear as well as 4th gear, so it's not going to be as savage on your fuel consumption as on the Disco I, which I believe does not lock up in 3rd gear (only top gear).

One solution is to fit a 4.6 litre V8, to the Disco, which makes the job a lot easier, although there is no appreciable fuel economy gains.

Personally, if I were in your shoes, I'd buy a different vehicle which will tow better. Unless you are not in a big rush. Often I find that if I'm towing on my own, it's not so much of a challenge but if travelling in a convoy, there's the need to keep up with the rest of the pack, and most of my mates are driving more powerful tow vehicles.... :(

Lawrance

[Blknight.aus]

the td5 is my tow motor of choice...

but the v8 well tuned and breathing nicely will haul up hills like you wouldnt belive. the wind resitance and balance of your trailer will be of more concern than the weight.

hell even the 3.5l carbied rovers used to climb like elevators if you were willing to stick the boot in, cog down one and watch the fuel gauge go down faster than a space shuttle.

[RonMcGr]

My wife and I are considering buying a 20 foot caravan which will weigh in at close to 2400kg when loaded. The tow vehicle is a 4.0 litre automatic in sound mechanical condition. Based on our experience towing a camper of half that weight, I am concerned at the Disco V8's lack of torque when it comes to hills.

Anyone have any experience towing that sort of weight with a 4 litre V8?

Cheers,

Terry

Terry,

Your concerns are well founded.
We tow a 15' van behind a D1 V8.
One word, "Gutless".
Have to use third gear to get going above 80kph and change into top at 90 kph.
The torque band id far too high.
Different cam and it maybe better.

Last weekend, there was a guy at the Esk CP with a new Range Rover twin turbo diesel V8, towing a 2.8tonne huge Boroma van. The bugger gets 14l /100km towing and 5.8 on it's own. He traded a Toyota LC V8 on the Rangie and is rapt!

Be nice to have the money.

Pic attached.

[PhilipA]

I am a little bemused by this post.
Surely everyones perception of "gutless" is different. The Poms think a 3.5 is a great tow vehicle.
My question is- Is it a 2001 Disco 11 or is it earlier.
The Thor 4Litre has a completely different torque curve to earlier cars.
The Thor High compression of 2003 will have more power and better fuel economy again.
I have an old RRC 3.9 to which I have fitted a Thor manifold and had dyno tuned and a Unichip, among other things. Mine will hold 4th gear climbing Mt Ousley near Wollongong (which is one of the steepest highway hills in Australia) towing my 600KG camper trailer. I have never been passed on a hill even by a Cruiser diesel towing a camper .
So I believe that even a 4.0 litre V8 will tow a 2400KG caravan easily. you may have to hold third gear manually on highway hills or even second on the few really big hills, but the revs your V8 can attain compared to a diesel will enable you to keep to a reasonbable speed.
If you have non Thor 4.0 litre, $2-3K spent on a Thor conversion and piggyback chip will transform the car.
Even though you will spend more on petrol , the cost will be far less than changing cars.
Regards Philip A

[Grumndriva]

Hi Philip,

It is a 99 Series 2. It works very hard pulling our Penguin Outback (which is probably around 1200 to 1300 kg loaded) on hills, and the only option is to lock it in third or even second and let it rev its little heart out. I seriously doubt its ability to cope with an extra 1000 kg, hence my post.

Thank you for your response.

Cheers,

Terry

[Taz]

Sorry to hijack your post Terry, but Philip - I was just wondering what the theory is behind the Thor manifold? Is it variable intake lengths or something tuned in such a way that the intake pulses hit resonance or simply don’t interfere with each other, hence getting a greater charge into the cylinders?

[Psimpson7]

adding to the post about the 3.5 being regarded as a decent tow vehicle in England!

I have a late low mileage 3.9 classic Vogue SE Manual and it is, in all honesty rubbish towing a trailer, unless you thrash it.

My TD5 will walk away from it any day of the week.

Having said that, 2500kgs isnt that much and we have extensivley towed loa ads up to 3500kgs with 3.5carb auto, 3.9efi manual, td5 d2 automatic, td5 manual 90, and tdi manual D1, and they all managed ok, but driving style had to be changed to suit. I cant speak for the later 4.0 but it should be better than the earlier ones.

I would say the TD5's were easily the best.

Rgds
Pete.

[shouldownacruiser]

Well there seems to be a big divergence of opinion which must have something to do with the variance in models and years. I have a late 02 v8 auto ES (large rims, low profile tyres) and I have towed an old 19 foot caravan with it and I found myself easily overtaking tradie utes going uphills. I could hold the speed limit (or very close to it) up most hills without too much hassle save for the appalling fuel consumption.

[PhilipA]

I was just wondering what the theory is behind the Thor manifold?

The blurb on release siad that the manifold used "Hemholz Resonance" to increease cylinder charging at low revs. It has very long tapering runners.
Rover V8 inlet manifold photo archive (http://www.mez.co.uk/ms12.html)
Jonathan Douglas (http://www.jeengineering.co.uk/) Comments: 'the throttle body has a 68 mm throttle as standard and again, we often take this out, in this case to 71.5 mm. The Thor manifold, when used with either a standard cam or a mildly tuned cam, gives a strong torque peak at around 2,000 rpm, much higher than that achievable with the Lucas plenum design, but even with careful gas-flow work the power is limited. We find it difficult to achieve more than around 280 bhp with this manifold, where a similar amount of effort on a Lucas Plenum manifold will yield 320 bhp (but with less torque below 3,500 rpm'
My 3.9 has about 50% more "tractive effort" at 2000RPM than a standard 3.9 with a trade off of 10% less than a standard 3.9 manifold over 4000RPM. I know what I would rather have.
Regards Philip A

[4X4V8]

I wonder if the difference lies in the low versus high compression engines in the D2. It doesn't sound like much more power (I was looking at RAVE tonight and it quotes the LC at 132kW and the HC at 136kW) but can't find torque figure differences

I am on my 2nd LC 1999 D2 V8, but the first had its heads skimmed so maybe a slightly higher compression? Anyway, both it and a HC 2001 model I test-drove recently went really well compared to my current LC 99 manual.

While it's not bad, it isn't getting the fuel figures or have the responsiveness or power of my (maybe) pseudo-HC V8 and the stamped 2001 HC V8.

Another possibility: my D2 auto when I bought it was pretty gutless. Turns out it had a bad airflow meter and with a new one fuel economy and performance were clearly better.

I know 340Nm pushing 2 tonnes plus a trailer doesn't sound like much these days but I find it hard to believe that it would be a bad combo. I am going to give my V8 a go with a heavy van soon and see.

[100I]

My 3.9 pulled Dad's 2t boat as well if not better than the TDI pulls my approx 700kg camper trailer.
I haven't spent so much time WOT in 4th since my 1L sierra.

The fuel bill is worlds apart tho...

[timdo1]

Hey,

I tow a 1 ton excavator and all accessories and the trailer around Melbourne several times a week. The manual D2 V8 handles it easily and only really struggle on long steep hills ie driving up the Calder that long hill just outside Sunbury.

Don't worry you wont have any real problems. Good luck with your projects.http://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Smile

[B92 8NW]

I can hardly believe that a V8 automatic needs to be shifted down to '2' and revved to buggery on a hill. I would have assumed '3' locked up it would pull just fine at comfortable revs.

I pull an 8x5 tandem, tare 500, ATM 2000. I have towed 420 bricks @ 4.5 kg each, plus two 40kg bags of cement (2470 kg). My old 200Tdi sat on 110 on the flat in 5th no problems, even better at 120. On hills on the Hume, straight back down to 4th and it would sit at 90 at 3000 rpm, EGTs 700-750.

I'd have thought a V8 would **** that in.

That was on a Tdi manual with upgraded i/c, boost, and a dangerously OTT tweak, I'll admit the stock 300 auto doesn't tow as well.

[markd2]

hi all
first disco 3.5 litre auto I towed around a 2ton boat and trailer If anyone knows the pacific hwy across the hawksbury river bridge from bottom standing start to top would not get below 75 km/h standard all round running on lpg . second disco 3.9 manual towed a enclosed car float that was 8mtrs long full of furniture. when put on back of disco with 2" lift tyres where level with guards we estimate it had a total weight of around 4 ton towed 50 kms suprisingly well but was not game to slot into 5th fearing damage to gearbox 4th did well thou we cruised for awhile on 90 km/h again on lpg. I think a lot has to do with gearing large tyres don't help when towing . I now have the td5 auto and towing my camper (1300kgs) up MT OUSLEY it rockets up doing 75 km/h easily again it is standard. Maybe just unluckly and got a dog of an engine or are you running large tyres?
cheers mark

[B92 8NW]

When my old Disco was off the road, I had to use a bloody common VP commo for towing, just a plain 3800 V6:D. It's got 295 Nm and it towed two tonnes flawlessly (or should that be "floorlessly" since I never needed the floor?)


I still can't believe that one needs to rev the crap out of the engine.

Given that the Thor produces peak torque of 340 Nm at 2600 RPM, and therefore 92 kW at peak torque, and that a Disco being 1885 wide and 1900 high and weighing 2.0t, it should mathematically pull itself and 2.5t van not exceeding the width and height of the Disco (a 4.5t combined unit) up a 5% gradient at 90km/h at 2600RPM.

I'm saying that mathematically a D2 V8 should pull 2.5t up a 5% gradient at 2600 RPM and 90 km/h. Doesn't this sound about right? Surely this isn't unreasonable?

[willvine]

I have a D2 V8 and am also not to impressed about the towing capability.

Mine is a D2 1999 one of the first. I do tend to do alot of towing from a oversized box trailer to my series 3 109 on a car trailer.

I dont like to say that my Ford ba LPG and my TD2002 Hilux Crap allover the disco V8 when it comes to towing the same loads.

Although the ford and the hilux have under 100ks on the clock and the disco has over 200ks i dont think it should make much of a difference.

Uladen the disco performes well running 32 tyres and a 3 inch lift. So maybe this is the problem. I am keen to lean more about the mods i can do to the disco to make it tow beter. It has just been for a major service and and the shop recons it has another 100 in it yet.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

hmmm,, unless I pull top at over 100kays the V8 will not hold or accelerate.(with 1100kg trailer)

once the engine reaches over 2000rpm it holds ok,,
anywhere over 2500 and its MUCH happier,,

unfortunatly this is too fast for the men in blue--

I'd much rather it was reving at 2500 at 100kph.

[Tombie]

Aww c'mon fella's lets get realistic here...

If ANYONE has a sentence "I run oversize tyres" and has Stock Diff gearing...

Then DONT waste time posting to this thread.....:p

Get your gearing right and you'll tow properly :D

[Tombie]

hmmm,, unless I pull top at over 100kays the V8 will not hold or accelerate.(with 1100kg trailer)

once the engine reaches over 2000rpm it holds ok,,
anywhere over 2500 and its MUCH happier,,

unfortunatly this is too fast for the men in blue--

I'd much rather it was reving at 2500 at 100kph.

Tried "3" :D

:wasntme:

[PAT303]

The thing I find funny about threads like this is that people want to tow such huge weights with no loss in performance.I drove a non turbo cruiser that was a one owner in perfect condition to Hill End NSW with a van on the back and it was the longest most painfull trip I have ever done.You say a disco is gutless? the tojo has only 96kw with an auto that seems to change gears,up or down totaly independely to what the engine is doing and in a vehicle that weighs half a ton heavier.If you have problems towing up hills it is because you are towing a van that weighs 2.4 tons.What type of 4WD will tow that above 100 up and down hills all day,going by the lines of cars stuck behind caravans on every major road in Oz these days not many. Pat

[RonMcGr]

The thing I find funny about threads like this is that people want to tow such huge weights with no loss in performance.I drove a non turbo cruiser that was a one owner in perfect condition to Hill End NSW with a van on the back and it was the longest most painfull trip I have ever done.You say a disco is gutless? the tojo has only 96kw with an auto that seems to change gears,up or down totaly independely to what the engine is doing and in a vehicle that weighs half a ton heavier.If you have problems towing up hills it is because you are towing a van that weighs 2.4 tons.What type of 4WD will tow that above 100 up and down hills all day,going by the lines of cars stuck behind caravans on every major road in Oz these days not many. Pat

Pat,

Two things.

The gearing/power band in the older Discos is way out of sync. If they did 2,500rpm @ 100kph and the power torque was inbetween 2,200 to 2,700rpm, they would tow quite well.

As for a good tow vehicle, the higher the torque, the better.
Probably the best tow vehicle would have to be the VW Touareg V10 TDI.

From a road test article "The 90° V10 pumps out a healthy 230kW of power and, wait for it, 750Nm of torque, available from 2000rpm! What this means is that you have enough bottom end power to pull the Queen Mary II out of the water, let alone the ski boat. And of course leave anything you like at the lights"
Volkswagen Touareg V10 TDI : Road Test : News & Reports : Motoring : Web Wombat (http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/xrt-vw-touareg-v10-tdi.htm)

There is a Range Rover that comes close!
http://www.caradvice.com.au/6979/2007-range-rover-vogue-luxury-tdv8-road-test/

"Under the bonnet, one of the best diesels in the business powers the Vogue. Producing 200kW and a stellar 640Nm of torque, the frugal motor sips through 9.8-litres/100km – which is very impressive for a vehicle that weighs some 2.7-tonnes. Power is sent through a slick-shifting 6-speed automatic gearbox."

Now that would make a great tow vehicle :D

Cheers,

[PAT303]

You have me there they both would be very good but still you would have to drive hard with that size load in any 4wd including the new ones to get away from a disco.The new LC has 200kw's on tap but an unloaded weight of 2.7tons,the power to weight ratio isn't very good. Pat

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Tried "3" :D

:wasntme:


all the time--



to get to "4" :p


its around 3 grand at 100 in 3
which is fine,,
on kickdown--

[4X4V8]

You have me there they both would be very good but still you would have to drive hard with that size load in any 4wd including the new ones to get away from a disco.The new LC has 200kw's on tap but an unloaded weight of 2.7tons,the power to weight ratio isn't very good. PatI have towed with both Toyota LC200 and RRS TDV8s. Both weigh abt 2700kg alone, but I have to say both tow extremely well. Cathrine Hill heading south-west on the Hume with 1700kg York on the back, the LC200 needed almost full throttle to maintain 100km/h... but did it just the same.

The RRS TDV8 I towed with a Geist, Tare abt 1700kg and it seemed even better. Towed like the trailer wasn't there.

A bit unfair comparing what is now a very old tech V8 petrol engine with the latest and greatest TDV8s. Even the BMW 120d hatchback has 340Nm these days...

[PAT303]

Thats my point.Are all the ''old'' vehicles no good anymore?.Disco's tow OK.I would spend money upgrading shocks and springs,cooling,brake performance than on more power. Pat

[RonMcGr]

I have towed with both Toyota LC200 and RRS TDV8s. Both weigh abt 2700kg alone, but I have to say both tow extremely well. Cathrine Hill heading south-west on the Hume with 1700kg York on the back, the LC200 needed almost full throttle to maintain 100km/h... but did it just the same.

The RRS TDV8 I towed with a Geist, Tare abt 1700kg and it seemed even better. Towed like the trailer wasn't there.



The guy I spoke to that had the RR V8TDI, had traded a V8 Tojo on it, and he was thrilled with the difference. He was also towing a 2,800 Boroma Van. There was one thing he said which I was skeptical about! 14l per 100km towing and 5.8 on the highway??

Now I know the V8TDI is supposed to be great on fuel, but......

[Tombie]

So now this discussion gets off track and starts comparing Turbo Diesels to Petrols... :p

OK... Well my TD5 Defender (Kerb Mass 2800kg) towed a vehicle trailer and 4wd (mass around 2500kg) at 110km/h from Warrnambool to Whyalla, over took at 130km/h+ and returned 11.6l/100km for the trip...

Never slowed for a hill either :p

But you have to keep the focus guys.... :cool:

Lets talk, Petrol engines only for this comparison...

[4X4V8]

14l per 100km towing and 5.8 on the highway

Hmmm. Not sure about that. The RR Sport TDV8 I drove achieved a worst figure of 20L/100km towing, around 17 average, down to low teens cruising solo.

[tempestv8]

Hi Philip,

It is a 99 Series 2. It works very hard pulling our Penguin Outback (which is probably around 1200 to 1300 kg loaded) on hills, and the only option is to lock it in third or even second and let it rev its little heart out. I seriously doubt its ability to cope with an extra 1000 kg, hence my post.

Thank you for your response.

Cheers,

Terry

Hi Terry,

I would fully concur with your opinion. A stock DII V8 auto will have precious little reserves when towing so I don't know what the 3.5 litre V8s or Tdi would have been like as tow vehicles. Probably appaling, sorry to say. Or maybe just as bad as a non turbo 4.2 diesel Land Cruiser. Even the 1st generation Prado Turbo Diesel would have been a dog with 90 odd kWs and similar torque to the DII 4.0 V8.


I have towed my Jayco Eagle Outback on three separate occasions with different vehicles. First was with a DII TD5 auto to Omeo, then with a 3.3 litre V6 Toyota Kluger auto to Robe, and finally with my freshly rebuilt High Compb V8 4.6 litre on sequential vapour injected LPG to King Valley (near Wangaratta).

The TD5 returned 14 litres per 100 km on diesel, the Kluger returned 16.6 litres per 100 kms on premium octane and the Disco managed 30 litres on LPG.

In terms of towing performance, I hate to say it, but I think the Kluger was sweetest/easiest to drive and also the least affected by the (same) tow weight. ;) Go figure.... :(



But ultimately the Disco, even at 30 litres per 100 kms, was cheapest to fuel for the same distance. :p



Lawrance

[Grumndriva]

Thanks everyone for the responses to date. Just to clarify, the vehicle has standard tyres and gearing, and struggles on our local hills such as Clyde Mountain and Brown Mountain and others in the region with just 1400kg on the back, hence my concerns about whether or not it could handle 2400kg. It seems from the responses that most of those who have actually towed larger weights in hilly terrain share my concern about the lack of torque with the 4 litre. I don't expect to sail up steep hills at normal highway speeds, but I don't want to be stuck at 4,500 rpm in bottom for long periods either. I often have to resort to 4,500 in second with the camper on the back on some of our steeper windier hills, and while the vehicle will do it, it can't be good for it. I think from several responses that the 4.6 conversion is probably worth investigating if we do decide to go ahead with the bigger van, since I do not want to lose the current Disco. It is just about perfect for our needs in every respect other than torque.

Thank you all for your responses. This is a great forum, and it is good to be able to get advice from other owners.

Cheers,

Terry

[PhilipA]

Terry, Brown Mountain and Clyde Mountain are exceptional climbs and any vehicle would be down to second on them, partly because of the hairpins which cause the car to slow right down then have to regain speed up a steep slope.
If you want ultimate V8 torque , Bruce Davis can build a 5 litre V8.
however it is expensive and the transmission has to also be upgraded ( at least 3K). You will not get change out of 10K-12K, based on my friend's 3.9 rebuild.

My personal opinion is that in this case a Gen111 would be more cost effective and reliable, except that the transmission upgrade costs 8K(according to my friend who quoted Bruce Davis). If you could use a TH700 mated to your Transfer it would be cheaper.

Having said all that, although I have no personal experience with such heavy towing, I would be very surprised if a TD5 could get out of second or first up the hills you mention.

Maybe someone who has climbed Brown Mountain with a TD5 towing 2400Kg ( on a hot day maybe) could comment.
Regards Philip A

[PAT303]

I don't know the road that you are talking about but if you have to slow down for hairpins it won't matter what you drive you are going to have a slow trip as you are effectively hill starting after each one.I would worry towing that weight on that grade of road. Pat

[BradM]

Towed 200kg from Newman to Port Hedland through the hills with a collapsed muffler internals only allowing 8 psi max boost from the turbo giving me almost a normally aspirated TD5.

NOT FAST down to 40 klms trying to get up some steep hills but it never gave up.

BradM

[BradM]

Left a zero off try 2000kg

BradM

[seqfisho]

Revving over the max torque mark does nothing but burn fuel when towing up hills.

Most 14lt or so truck engines produce around 2000Nm of torque at lowish revs say 1600-2000rpm (very rough figures) and they dont fly up the hills, they get on the torque band and stay there despite the speed it produces (or lack of), so if you can pull 2.5 ton up a hill at a better speed than a semi pulling 40 ton I would think your doing ok.

Remmember you not in a hill climb race, and even if you get an extra 10-15kmh up the hill you will probably save yourself maybe 5 min in your overall trip time, that is unless you spend that time at the servo refuelling:D

[RonMcGr]

Thanks everyone for the responses to date. Just to clarify, the vehicle has standard tyres and gearing, and struggles on our local hills such as Clyde Mountain and Brown Mountain and others in the region with just 1400kg on the back, hence my concerns about whether or not it could handle 2400kg. It seems from the responses that most of those who have actually towed larger weights in hilly terrain share my concern about the lack of torque with the 4 litre. I don't expect to sail up steep hills at normal highway speeds, but I don't want to be stuck at 4,500 rpm in bottom for long periods either. I often have to resort to 4,500 in second with the camper on the back on some of our steeper windier hills, and while the vehicle will do it, it can't be good for it. I think from several responses that the 4.6 conversion is probably worth investigating if we do decide to go ahead with the bigger van, since I do not want to lose the current Disco. It is just about perfect for our needs in every respect other than torque.

Thank you all for your responses. This is a great forum, and it is good to be able to get advice from other owners.

Cheers,

Terry

Terry,

Keep in mind that fact that you also have Low Range :D
I have actually used it on a very steep hill!
The Disco V8 maybe a gutless beast, but is does have gearing and nothing will stop it :D

I actually use low range to reverse the van at home. LR suggest the use of low range for any heavy towing under 30kph.

Cheers

[tempestv8]

The answer to towing is most likely to be a modern turbo diesel with direct injection. But the changeover cost is going to be high, just for the purposes of towing. On the other hand, if the V8 is going to overheat, towing something very heavy up hill, then the repair costs are going to be high too! :(

I'm not keen on suggesting a replacement vehicle because I don't think there's anything out there that is really worth replacing with, without around $30-$40K changeover price.

If I had to buy a serious tow vehicle that I like, it would have to be something like a used TD6 (BMW 6 cylinder TD motor) Range Rover but I think it will be at least $65K to put on the road.

Something cheaper would be a new Prado D4D turbo diesel, but the GXL auto will still set you back around $58K.

[Taz]

Revving over the max torque mark does nothing but burn fuel when towing up hills.

:D

Hmmmm. Interesting theory you have there.

[Blknight.aus]

what hes saying is fairly apliccable to diesel engines..... providing your talking about the most fuel economical way of moving stuff....

as for petrols.... now thats a big kettle of fish.

[Taz]

Well summed up there Blknight.