Engine Saver

[Disco_owner]

G'day Guys;

I recieved my engine saver unit yesterday and thanks to LandyAndy for his useful post of second offers I placed my order in. Anyhow this morning Installed the Engine Saver which was quite an easy install.

Below is the Pic of the Unit for those of you who maynot know what it is,




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/05/380.jpg

once installation was complete I started up the engine with added coolant got it nice and hot and with all air bubbles gone I noticed that the Buzzer was still sounding away and the LED was on , is there any Trick to setting up of the Inline Sensor that plugs into the Radiator Top hose ? does this sensor need to be vertically on Top ? if so this is how I've installed the unit and the buzzer is still going like mad , :confused: do I have any issues with the cooling system , certainly the TEMP Gauge doesnot indicate so..


switched on the Heater unit inside with TEMP GAUGE was halfway and it was quite hot inside the Cabine ??

Any ideas /suggestion would be appreciated ..

[RonMcGr]

G'day Guys;

I recieved my engine saver unit yesterday and thanks to LandyAndy for his useful post of second offers I placed my order in. Anyhow this morning Installed the Engine Saver which was quite an easy install.

Below is the Pic of the Unit for those of you who maynot know what it is,




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/05/380.jpg

once installation was complete I started up the engine with added coolant got it nice and hot and with all air bubbles gone I noticed that the Buzzer was still sounding away and the LED was on , is there any Trick to setting up of the Inline Sensor that plugs into the Radiator Top hose ? does this sensor need to be vertically on Top ? if so this is how I've installed the unit and the buzzer is still going like mad , :confused: do I have any issues with the cooling system , certainly the TEMP Gauge doesnot indicate so..


switched on the Heater unit inside with TEMp Gaugse was halfway and it was quite hot inside the Cabine ??

Any ideas /suggestion would be appreciated ..

I used the other type that has a sensor in the radiator top.
I undid the brass screw on the radiator to bleed the air out and it has worked like a champion since.:D

[mcrover]

I would be inclined to think the sensor would go to the bottom or the side of the hose due to there being the possibility of an air lock at the top of the hose more than the bottom.

If you lose water then it is going to sound as soon as it is in the air I would suspect but not having done one Im not entirely sure.

I would be thinking at the bottom it will need the hose to be mostly empty and at the side, half full I'd think........:eek:

Probably not much use for you but 1 more for my post count :D

[LandyAndy]

Hi Disco owner
If its buzzing you still havent bled all the air out yet!!!.
If its a D2 TD5 you need to unclip the overflow bottle and lift to its full extent to force all the air out of the bleeder in the hose.
Im sure if its a D1 others will give advice how to bleed.
Andrew

[Disco_owner]

Thanks for your replies , Ron I also removed the Brass Screw Plug ontop of the Radiator and let the engine run for a 20-30 minutes until hot , could see air bubbles coming out, :confused: WED night Whilst driving to Club meeting Temp gauge shut up past Red line , stopped to invesitgate , undid the Expansion tank plug and the cooling system Spewed it's guts out with coolant , refilled with water , no coolant available and ran it for a while till bubbles were out , drove home and found a Loose Bolt on Water Pump , tightened loose Bolt ? refilled with Water to test the cooling system and Temp Gauge is certainly reading normal since , My Money is on LandyAndy I haven't fully Bled the cooling system.:confused:

Any Advice on how to bleed cooling system on a D1 properly ?

[RonMcGr]

Thanks for your replies , Ron I also removed the Brass Screw Plug ontop of the Radiator and let the engine run for a 20-30 minutes until hot , could air bubbles coming out, :confused: WED night Whilst driving to Club meeting Temp gauge shut up past Red line , stopped to invesitgate , undid the Expansion tank plug and the cooling system Spewed it's guts out with coolant , refilled with water , no coolant available and ran it for a while till bubbles were out , drove home and found a Loose Bolt on Water Pump , tightened loose Bolt ? refilled with Water to test the cooling system and Temp Gauge is certainly reading normal since , My Money is on LandyAndy I haven't fully Bled the cooling system.:confused:

Any Advice on how to bleed cooling system on a D1 properly ?

Oh boy! You sure are having fun :eek:

[Disco_owner]

Oh boy! You sure are having fun :eek:


:D:D

Yep , having lots of Fun , but if I can get the Buzzing sound to stop I'd be ecstatic , I think the Same style of Buzzer with similar frequency must have been used to extract information from the Russian Spies during the Cold war , when sounding Must exit the vehicle very quickly otherwise your ears will start bleeding:eek:

[Disco300Tdi]

Whilst the engine is colder, undo the plug on top of the thermostat housing to let any air escape

[Disco_owner]

thanks Gav;

I'll give it a go tonite when I get home.:)

[LandyAndy]

Run the heater at full heat,you could have air in there escaping back into the cooling system.
Andrew

[waynep]

If the alarm is constantly on, either the probe is not immersed in coolant, OR there is a break in the wire between the probe and the alarm unit. Are you sure the in line connector at the alarm unit end is fully pushed in ?

1. fill reservoir to FILL mark.
2. engine off but on ignition setting - alarm should be on. ( no coolant in top hose )
3. remove fill plug on radiator - fill with coolant.
4. refit fill plug on radiator.
5. remove fill plug on thermostat housing - fill with coolant - alarm should go off as you fill.
6. refit fill plug.
7. run engine for a couple of minutes.
8. if alarm goes off repeat above procedure.

If you re pretty sure the probe is covered by coolant there could be a problem with the probe or wire. I'd ring EngineSaver he's very helpful.

[Disco_owner]

If the alarm is constantly on, either the probe is not immersed in coolant, OR there is a break in the wire between the probe and the alarm unit. Are you sure the in line connector at the alarm unit end is fully pushed in ? Yes , checked this morning.

I topped up this way when fitting the engine saver in my D1 300Tdi. Worked fine for me.

1. fill reservoir to FILL mark.
2. engine off but on ignition setting - alarm should be on. ( no coolant in top hose )
3. remove fill plug on radiator - fill with coolant.
4. refit fill plug on radiator.
5. remove fill plug on thermostat housing - fill with coolant - alarm should go off as you fill. This is one step I missed , thanks Waynep
6. refit fill plug.
7. run engine for a couple of minutes.
8. if alarm goes off repeat above procedure.

If you re pretty sure the probe is covered by coolant there could be a problem with the probe or wire. I'd ring EngineSaver he's very helpful.


The above mentioned step "5 " is one I missed.:(

[mox]

Remember that the above exercise is not an end in itself. Reckon I have a simpler, cheaper and more reliable setup on my 300Tdi to prevent engine overheating. Wire from ignition switch to fuel solenoid on the injector goes via temperature sensitive switch on the head. It opens, and the motor stops if the temperature reaches 105 degrees - well before it suffers any heat damage. Doesn't matter if the cause is sudden major water loss or the water just getting hot for some reason or combination of them without losing any.

Also most things that can go wrong with this system, eg if a wire falls off will also stop the motor. This makes it preferable to having things such as buzzers and warning lights that have to work properly to give protection.

The above temperature sensitive switch arrangement is particularly good for applications where diesels are left running unattended, eg driving pumps.

[LandyAndy]

Hi Mox
The idea sounds good,but is quite dangerous.
I wouldnt like the motor just shutting down of its own accord,sure it may save the engine.Can imagine passing a roadtrain and having a shutdown:eek::eek::eek::eek:.
If it looses the water suddenly it wont work until the engine is destroyed anyway.The temp sensor will now be reading heat soak that would have to be real high to hit 105deg at the temp sensor thats not imersed in coolant.
Andrew

[Blknight.aus]

hey mox this temp sensitive switch is it inserted into the cooling system or bolted onto the head.....

Ida thought that if it was connected directly to the metal of the block its heat up pretty damn quick in the event of coolant loss. Especially if it was on a bolt on the exhaust side of the head.

[cockie55]

Pounds to peanuts an airlock. Make sure you quit all air from the system out of the fill plug on radiator. Squeeze top radiator hose to make sure. Also make sure Phillips screw head of sensor is on top of hose and you have not installed it upside down.

[Disco_owner]

alright;

what Ever I tried didn't make the buzzer stop so there must have still been Air inside top radiator hose , so anyhow off I went for test drive , Geez that Damn Buzzer , I think I have partial loss of hearing should have disabled it ,but that's too smart for me, anyhow once the engine got nice and hot , Buzzer stopped sounding ,suspect Thermostat fully open and water flowing around inside keeping everything nice and cool , just one thing thou going around the corners the buzzer comes on :eek: okay no sweat , take corners with a nice Gentle Turn , oh it's followed by nice Gentle sound of Buzzer :eek:, not quite fullblast , driving around a few more K'm , Buzzer stops again , it was fine till I got home to my Driveway , the buzzer comes on again , I suspect the position where the sensor is vertically on top and 80mm away from radiator as per instructions is not the most Ideal place for it ??um being on the bend of the Top Radiator Hose :(, anyhow bleed the system , pour OAT coolant back in and get all bubbles out and replaced top radiator plug and go for another drive . the engine was already hot enough so didn't take long for Temp Gauge to register normal operating temp reading , Pushing vehicle Nice and hard to get Engine Temps up for testing ,the Buzzer stops ,TEMP Gauge normal Red LED went out , okay turn around and went back home , again as soon as I get to the drive way the buzzer is back on... anyhow I know the Cooling system works will continue investigating tomorrow...

[mox]

G’day Landy Andy,
Regarding your speculative claim that the setup I explained of having a temperature sensitive switch is dangerous: This is to explain why it is not. Conversely, the “Engine Saver”and other protection devices that don’t work if components fail or electrical circuits are broken are dangerous. It is better to have the motor stop when it is not overheated if the protection device itself fails. Years ago a parts salesman told me he felt guilty having sold a Murphy “switchgage” setup that failed to function for some reason, resulting in a cooked motor.

Also, to ladas who thought the warning was a useful post, you live less than 50 km from me. Could show you the setup on my 300 Tdi next time I am over your way or if you come here could also show you the slightly more elaborate arrangements on two tractors and a header (ie combine harvester, which often run in severe conditions and are very prone to overheating.)

As these have mechanical fuel shutoffs, have fuel solenoids between secondary fuel filters and injector pumps. Also, something I have not yet got around to installing on my Land Rover – oil pressure switches that work the other way to those for oil warning lights. ie They switch off when below 10 psi or whatever else adjusted to

For the motor to run, of course the fuel solenoid has to have power to keep it open. For engine protection, if this is provided via temperature sensitive and oil pressure switches, the latter at least has to be bypassed for starting until the oil pressure builds up. Have heard of time delay switches being used, but regard the simplest and best is a push button bypass switch that you hold down while starting until the oil pressure builds up enough .
This bypass switch (best pushbutton so not accidentally left on and installed where it can be easily held down ) also overcomes scenarios such as the one Landy Andy suggested eg motor cuts out while passing a road train due to overheating – instead of a buzzer or light giving a warning.

As the head could get a lot hotter than 105 degrees before damaging itself, would not hurt running the motor for a short period – probably in seconds to drive off the road . I have had them go off on a header motor, including while under heavy load in hot conditions and radiator getting blocked with dust. Then just driven to where the radiator can be cleaned with the separator out of gear holding down the override button. In this situation, with load on the motor greatly reduced, coolant temperature quickly drops back to normal but it takes the switch much longer to reset unless quickly cooled by carefully pouring water on it.

Regarding the claim that if the water suddenly went, the engine would be destroyed anyway: Have never heard of this occurring and local tractor mechanics here who have installed lots of these temperature sensitive switches over more than 20 years would have told me if they ever came across it. The first thing that gets hot quickly if water is lost is the head and you have the switch, which is about the diameter of a $2 coin, attached to somewhere that will heat up rapidly if malfunction occurs, eg low down on the side of the middle of the head and with two electrical spade terminals protruding.\

If damage occurs due to rapid water loss in a hot engine and there is some form of engine protection so it is shut down quickly, the damage is more likely from cracking and /or warping from uneven cooling than heating to a very high temperature. Water circulation helps distribute heat from hot spots around. It is recommended that hot engines be idled enough before shutting off so hot spots in them equalize enough with surrounding area temperatures.

If water is suddenly lost from a motor, the considerable amount of metal in it may heat up quickly but it is not instantaneous. The switch would turn off when temperature is less than 20 degrees above normal .Heat conducting characteristics are also important. Provided a spot that will get hot is close, heating of where the switch is situated should not be far behind.

According to reports I have seen, VM diesels which were used in some Range Rovers and have separate heads on each cylinder are very prone to destroy themselves by overheating. Looks like having a switch on each head at less than $60 each would be cheap insurance.

Maybe some reader could give us figures on temperatures cylinder heads on motors have to get to before damage occurs if heated and cooled fairly evenly.

Also in case someone asks who supplies these temperature switches, the only place I have come across is Shepparton Speedo and Instrument Service (in Northern Victoria.).

Seems to me some people on this forum have become obsessed with low coolant monitors as an end in themselves rather than a means of hopefully stopping damage to motors by overheating. Maybe a bit like how apparently when jet engines first appeared, the development priority of some air force brass was better propellers, pistons etc for piston engines instead of looking at a different concept.

[4bee]

I also think it's important when bleeding from the rad plug, to position the vehicle so the offside is higher than the nearside & to have the rad at a high point, using stands or a slope.
In other words, get the rad plug at a high position to allow as much air as possible to emerge.

You may need to do this operation a few times as well.

I fitted an Engine Saver some months ago.

[Disco_owner]

I also think it's important when bleeding from the rad plug, to position the vehicle so the offside is higher than the nearside & to have the rad at a high point, using stands or a slope.
In other words, get the rad plug at a high position to allow as much air as possible to emerge.

You may need to do this operation a few times as well.

I fitted an Engine Saver some months ago.

It's funny you mention that because the vehicle is on a slope due to slant on my driveway ,ofcourse as you said with the Radiator plug being at an offset , now it doesn't matter if nose of vehicle is pointing down or poiting up , in-line sensor is not picking up coolant :confused: this only happens when on drive-way, it's fine when being driven ,I thought perhaps not enough coolant in the system so i filled up more inside exp-tank, Umm still no good :D, however when driven after about 10-15 min when engine is nice and hot , buzzing stops so it appears Thermostat is doing it's job.I'll take a Pic of where I've installed the sensor and you can comment on it's position etc , cheers Khos.

[4bee]

Mine is a 3.9 & the saver stat is in the rad outlet hose not in an inline fitting.

Imho, in your case, the bleed screw should be on the top so any trapped air can escape.

I posted (with images), an inverted bottle setup which screws into the top rad. hole where you can see the air bubbles & 'gulps' come out & it is suprising just how much gets trapped.

[LandyAndy]

Hi Disco Owner.
Get it nice and hot pull over and squeeze the top hose whilst the engine is running(beware hot hose and fan/belts etc) Is the hose under a lot of pressure??? After your earlier post of it spewing its coolant out I wonder if you actually have an early head gasket problem???
Hopefully not.
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

Hi Mox
Im sure your system is perfect for the paddock where you can safely stop from the low speeds encountered there on farm equipment.
Would say definetely not safe for heavier earthmoving equipment wether on or off-road.
POSITIVELY DANGEROUS on the open road,for the user and anyody else in your vicinity.How about a fully loaded road train heading down a nice big hill into a country town.The thing overheats whilst still in the open road speed zone and shuts that nice expensive motor down.Now try and slow/stop/steer the behemoth without killing anybody or yourself.I would also thing such a cutt off system would be illegal on the road.
Andrew

[Disco_owner]

Hi Disco Owner.
Get it nice and hot pull over and squeeze the top hose whilst the engine is running(beware hot hose and fan/belts etc) Is the hose under a lot of pressure??? After your earlier post of it spewing its coolant out I wonder if you actually have an early head gasket problem???
Hopefully not.
Andrew

Hi LandyAndy,All sorted mate;

Coolant Level was rather low inside cooling system , the in-line sensor wasn't quite picking up coolant presence inside top hose when engine was cold , once it was hot it was okay , no buzzing , this morning with expansion tank topped right up to level I took it for another test drive for 10-15 min of hard driving & it stopped buzzing and it has been off since , phew :)even when on the driveway with vehicle facing down or facing up or sideway the in-line sensor is still picking up coolant presence inside Rad top-hose when Cold.:BigThumb:

[mox]

Further regarding the concerns expressed by Landy Andy regarding the overheat protection system with power fed to the fuel solenoid via a temperature sensitive switch on the head:

No need for buzzer and/or warning light which can malfunction or driver not notice /ignore them and the buzzer at least costs money. For Land Rovers seems to me a push button as easily accessable as a headlight dip switch is adequate if every driver of the vehicle is well aware of its function. Having to use it would normally be no different to handling minor emergencies that drivers have to deal with all the time.

In applications where the fuel solenoid suddenly switched off without warning may cause a major problem from loss of power assistance for braking and steering, eg in a truck, inertia keeping the motor turning would generally give plenty of time to activate the override.

Note when fuel solenoids - effectively electrically operated taps are used in applications where the injector pump has a mechanical shutoff, the motor does not stop instantly. It first sounds as if it is starving for fuel, then stops slowly but immediately recovers when the override is hit before it does. I am sure some plumbing could be devised so motors initially lose power to give warning before stopping completely if deemed desirable.

I initially had a 95 degree switch on my 300 Tdi. Found it a bit of a nuisance. Went off too readily under heavy load in hot weather. There is one motor at least - I think Kubota that normally runs hot that the bloke at Shepp Speedo recommends 115 degree switches for.

After changing the timing belt 12 months ago I have not replaced the fan, shroud or air conditioner condensor - the latter needing removing for another reason. Also have done a few other things to allow better air flow. Seems with the standard setup the big fan is necessary largely to push air past all the obstructions (a sentiment I have seen expressed on this forum). the 105 degree switch has since stopped the motor once, when it had been idling for nearly half an hour on a hot day -and the radiator cap did not blow. Possible disbelievers should note that diesel engines are more efficient than petrol ones and for the same power output produce less heat from the radiator and exhaust.

[LandyAndy]

Hi Mox
If your fan is trying to PUSH air past all its obstructions I suggest you turn it around.An engine fan PULLS air thru the radiators and out over the engine,the fan shroud is an important part of this as the fan WILL optain its air supply from the extremities of its blades not thru the ducting the fan shroud provides.
Andrew

[mox]

More comments on fans, especially for Landy Andy:
Regarding turning fans around, it it does not make the air go in the other direction any more than turning your right hand around makes it like your left hand. With fan blades that are normally curved when looking from the ends towards the hub, turning them round and running them in the same direction simply makes them churn the air more rather than scoop it through, draw less through the radiator and probably make them heavier to drive. I have seen engines on farm machines that have had overheating problems due to the fan being installed the wrong way round. Also have noticed the fan on backwards on the odd road vehicle, which would also make overheating more likely.

On some late model vehicles with serpentine belts where the fan runs the opposite way to the crankshaft, the fan blades are also the other way around. I installed a steel one of these from a post 1987 6 cylinder Jeep backwards on a tractor with a front end loader so it efficiently blows air forward. Stopped the problem of chaff from hay on forks blocking the radiator. Had seen the same arrangement on dozers to reduce clogging from heavy dust stirred up just in front of them.

I agree that a fan shroud is important with a fan behind the radiator. However, from noticing the way dust and chaff regularly blocks some parts of the radiator more than others in headers, (ie combine harvesters) the fan draws more air through some areas than others due to differing peripheral speeds of the blades along their length and turbulence.

To me, it appears the the 300 Tdi Defender fan location with the shroud offset relative to it is a poor design which probably results in the fan drawing far more air through parts of the radiator than the intercooler, which needs high air flow first. It appears two electric fans in front of the radiator instead would be more efficient in this respect. On road vehicles, there is enough air going through the radiator most of the time so they don't need to be switched on. However, because of the bit of extra obstruction they create, in some marginal situations they would need to be switched on just because of it. The electric fan that was bolted to the front of the air conditioner condensor on my Defender was a bit self defeating in this respect as well as making the condensor and radiator harder to clean. In many conditions you can get away without a fan, including with minimal risk of engine damage from overheating if a protection device is operational.

This is less likely if the cooling system is partially blocked or has inadequate capacity. Of interest is that in the 1950's my uncle had a Riley sports car. It had one belt driving the generator and water pump and the other the fan. He drove it for 8 years largely around Melbourne without a fan belt. The only times overheating was a worry was occasionally with long waits at traffic lights. Reckons on very hot days he often drove past cars on the side of the road with bonnets up , including many FJ Holdens, supposedly built for Australian conditions.

[LandyAndy]

Mi Mox
The cooling fan on my grader is computer controlled.ALL the cooling heat exchangers(radiator,intercooler,oil coolers) are locared in a rear pod behind the engine,the cooling fan is hydraulic operated,it is operated at a timed interval to run back to front to blow all the rubbish out of the heat exchangers,VERY EFFECTIVE.
There is a major problem with this system.At the moment the manufacturers have over-ridden the operator time out for reversing to a short blast I cant give via the computer dash.
When transporting the grader during summer on 40C plus days the reversal of the fans overheats the cooling system.All the bells whistles light up and within a minute the computer limits H.P and the thing almost dies.Dont worry,the first 3 times it happened I stopped and checked out for leaks,now I just pull over and wait for the fan to go the right way round.
They admit the cooling system reversal is a BIG problem whilst transporting and are looking at an ECU blockout when in transport mode.
Driven big Headers that auto clean cooling fans too when I was once working as a sod busters hired help!!!.Saves getting itch cleaning with an air gun!!!
Andrew

[Nungarra]

You may need to test the unit itself ... not sure on how to do that.

Maybe seek advice from the supplier

Just a a couple of thoughts

Cheers

V