comparing notes on vortex muffler results...

[feraldisco]

Hi - just interested in feedback from others who have fitted the Vortex muffler to a Disco Td5 - or is it just Tombraider and BradM!

Contrary to BradM's experience, if anything mine feels a bit doughier in throttle response and there's also vibration at low revs - although the latter may be due to an issue with the fitting - I'll have to have a good look and make sure the entire system is connected properly after having the Vortex put in.

When you look at the Vortex, the conical ends definitely make sense in terms of being freer-flowing than the squared ends of most mufflers; however, there's not much in the way of 'space' insider them, although I presume the aim of all the internal shaped metal is to set up a 'vortex' to extract gas actively.

I wonder if Brad's original muffler may have collapsed internally - hence the improvement when fitting the Vortex. Admittedly, my ECU needs to be upgraded as I'm not getting enough fuel over 2.5K rpm, but I can't see how a muffler would provide improved performance at high revs but apparently poorer performance at low revs...:confused:

[rick130]

<snip>

When you look at the Vortex, the conical ends definitely make sense in terms of being freer-flowing than the squared ends of most mufflers; however, there's not much in the way of 'space' insider them, although I presume the aim of all the internal shaped metal is to set up a 'vortex' to extract gas actively.

<snip>

But most sports mufflers are a straight through pipe !
The 'box' is just something to hold a medium to dampen the sound waves that enter through the perforations in the main tube.

Personally I reckon the Vortex muffler is just a Hiclone for the exhaust, but I don't have one and have never tested one.

[MickG]

Interesting feral.....watching with interest as I was considering fitting one to my D2 TD5 which is chipped and currently has now muffler or resonator fitted. Initially would like an improvement in take up but also want to knock back the noise a little.

Keen to hear others comments.

[pohm66]

Also watching with interest........ especially as a straight through mid pipe is also an option for a free-er!! flowing exhaust.

What benefit would a Vortex have over this setup???????

Paul

[feraldisco]

ok, have had a longer drive today and am now getting used to it...actually quite like the low rev vibration and the note sounds very much like a prime mover - not obnoxious, but a beastier note than standard. Fortunately I've still got the original muffler set up flange-flange, so I can swap between them on the weekend and see if the difference is more than perception...maybe I'll get a bit of flange-flange straight pipe made up as a third option!

In relation to the comment above about most aftermarket mufflers being straight through with the squared ends providing noise reduction, that's fine, but such designs still create turbulence which is presumably what the vortex design is trying to overcome. I too would normally be sceptical about a fancy design like the vortex and put it in the hiclone category...however, when you've got people like Tombie giving them the thumbs up, it makes you think there might be something to them...

[rick130]

<snip>

In relation to the comment above about most aftermarket mufflers being straight through with the squared ends providing noise reduction, that's fine, but such designs still create turbulence which is presumably what the vortex design is trying to overcome. I too would normally be sceptical about a fancy design like the vortex and put it in the hiclone category...however, when you've got people like Tombie giving them the thumbs up, it makes you think there might be something to them...

a straight through perforated pipe creates very little turbulence, the perforations are in the gasses boundary layer which almost has zero velocity.

Put it this way, I've played around with quite a few racing exhausts on the dyno which had to be muffled. I've tried various styles of merge collectors, megapohones, different size dump pipes, primaries, etc. in various combinations.

Have I ever tried a Vortex ? No.
Do I think it would work ? No. But I'm willing to eat my words if someone can prove to me that it has advantages over a straight through perforated design. To my eye it will create back pressure and do nothing beneficial. I've talked to the bloke in Qld that makes them and had an interesting conversation, but I remain sceptical.
I have books on exhaust theory and design, and the Vortex is similar to one tested over forty years ago, and it didn't result in any power increases over a straight perforated tube silencer.

[feraldisco]

so theoretically a straigbht-through section of pipe should be even more free-flowing than the perforated tube type muffler...

I seem to recall that BradM thought that the vortex was an improvement over the straight pipe he had fitted - hopefully he or Tombraider see this thread to clarify...

[feraldisco]

just discovered the below quote on 4wd monthly site (yes, yes, I know some will argue that's an unreliable source of info...)...maybe the gains will be discovered higher up in the rev range once I get an upgraded ECU...then again, with a TD, I was probably more interested in low down gains/reduced turbo lag...


"In the process of researching the Taipans as well. Majority of their dyno charts are as above - with chips, K&N filters and the exhaust. However, some of the Taipan distributors have actually done some independant dyno runs just with the exhaust. With only doing the exhaust, the new Prado D4D TD's are getting about a 10-12% increase in torque and KW at the wheels. So the new hilux's would be about the same.

$1450 is pretty much the standard price for the dump pipe, the entire 3" mandrel bent exhaust and the vortex muffler. The vortex muffler is really the key to these exhausts efficiency. It extracts the gases out quicker and no other company can design such a useful muffler thus far. It is also patented. I know of a guy who had a 3" system on his GU patrol from a very well known exhaust shop in Beaudesert. Got reasonable gains from it, but then put a Taipan system on and was just blown away with the performance and fuel efficiency. Threw the other exhaust to the recyclers."

[Redback]

Looking at the comment on the increase of 10 to 12% of power over standard for the D4D Prado, they must be very restricted when standard.

My understanding was that most aftermarket systems will only give 1/2 maybe a bit more of that gain, say 7 to 8%.

Also increased noise can give the miss-perseption of more power (eg) taking out the baffles, in most cases all you get is extra noise.

I took out the centre muffler and had a straight pipe put in, to me it was a very slight improvement, but was this just the noise that made me think it was going better, because when i looked at the pipe they made up for me it was bent to meet the flanges in the normal way muffler shops bend pipes, not a mandrel bend, so basicly the bends in that bit of pipe have decreased the size of the pipe from 2 1/2" to maybe 2", this could be why there's not much of an increase.

The only real way to tell is on a dyno.

I didn't comment on the Vortex, as i know nothing about them.

Baz.

[up2nogood]

"I know of a guy who had a 3" system on his GU patrol from a very well known exhaust shop in Beaudesert. Got reasonable gains from it, but then put a Taipan system on and was just blown away with the performance and fuel efficiency. Threw the other exhaust to the recyclers."


Not bagging the poster, but the source of the info......

I would hesitate to think a passive, spiral formed piece of steel plate inside a tube would be able to make such a gain as to make it worthwhile, unless the aftermarket system was rubbish (and I've seen some Barry Crockers, so this could be the case).

[MickG]

Fortunately I've still got the original muffler set up flange-flange, so I can swap between them on the weekend and see if the difference is more than perception...maybe I'll get a bit of flange-flange straight pipe made up as a third option!

Keen to hear how you go feraldisco....going off the Vortex web site (http://vortexexhausts.com.au/products.html) the 2.5" muffler costs just under $300 before fitting so depending on your feedback and hopefully Tombie's and BradM's again, I was looking to fit one soon.

Aye, Mick

[Tombie]

Hmm, I watched this thread over the last couple of night shifts with a smile :D

My testing on Lara proved to me the thing works...

I went from stock to straight through 2.5" pipe and stock res in the back.

I then went to 3" pipe with 3" straight through muffler and 3" dump

I went on to go Vortex replacing the Expensive muffler I had. The muffler shop guy wasnt expecting the thing to be any good...

Well, I can tell you that afternoon I fueled up and drove to Victoria towing a heavy vehicle trailer.

The vehicle was smoother, more responsive, and what impressed me most, was the 2Litres per 100km that I saved over my usual fuel use, and I was TOWING!

More testing also showed a reduction in EGTs.. The engine ran cooler...
I confirmed this when talking to BRUCE DAVIS... He can tune in a substantial increase in power with the Vortex in place.

I then mentioned it to a few guys up here... One had built one himself years ago after seeing an early version of the theory... Had it on his HR holden and was telling me he got better performance and economy.

So i decided to test further...

I got a 2" 23" long version and fitted it to the wifes suzuki vitara...

She can now drive to Adelaide on a tank... Previously she had to fuel up by Dublin (just south of Pt Wakefield)... An extra distance of 60km per tank.

I've also found that straight pipe can cause less performance in a TD...

[Tombie]

Please also note...

ALL my exhaust systems are Mandrel Bent and very smooth, using the smoothest possible line to the exit point.

Also, the Landrover exhaust systems in TD5s are very good for a factory system.... So to get such an improvement is rewarding.

[MickG]

Nice one Tombie........that's the green light I need to throw one on:D When I get round to it i'll post up.
One question though, I have a BD non flashable ECU upgrade on my '99 Manual TD5 D2 (has been detuned slightly by BD to improve drivability over his original chip) would I need to get this re-tuned? The Vortex guys say yes, but I have spoken to a couple of others who say there is no need. Sorry one last question and sorry for the highjack, but are the flashable ECU's learnable?

Aye, Mick

[Tombie]

ok, have had a longer drive today and am now getting used to it...actually quite like the low rev vibration and the note sounds very much like a prime mover - not obnoxious, but a beastier note than standard. Fortunately I've still got the original muffler set up flange-flange, so I can swap between them on the weekend and see if the difference is more than perception...maybe I'll get a bit of flange-flange straight pipe made up as a third option!

In relation to the comment above about most aftermarket mufflers being straight through with the squared ends providing noise reduction, that's fine, but such designs still create turbulence which is presumably what the vortex design is trying to overcome. I too would normally be sceptical about a fancy design like the vortex and put it in the hiclone category...however, when you've got people like Tombie giving them the thumbs up, it makes you think there might be something to them...

Thanks for the kind words...

Can I also suggest something, to help further improve the vehicle...

Keep doing your testing as is for a while...

Then, make some tweaks to the wastegate rod... AFTER testing as is...

BEFORE adjusting, use a hack saw and at the end of the thread where it enters the adjuster, score the rod so you have a reference point to return to.

Now, loosen the lock nut and wind it 1 1/2 turns towards the front of the vehicle. This is your starting point...

Now wind the knurled centre portion till the adjuster again touches the nut.

Retighten the nut and go road test...

You'll need to boot it a few times, preferably on a hill and make sure it still revs up, and doesnt overboost...

If it does, undo the lock nut, and wind the OTHER way 1/2 turn... Repeat test...

If it doesnt you could actually turn it another 1/2 turn and see if it improves again..

Often the factory settings are off, tweaking them back to the engines full potential will reduce some lag and make the vehicle more responsive.

[Tombie]

Nice one Tombie........that's the green light I need to throw one on:D When I get round to it i'll post up.
One question though, I have a BD non flashable ECU upgrade on my '99 Manual TD5 D2 (has been detuned slightly by BD to improve drivability over his original chip) would I need to get this re-tuned? The Vortex guys say yes, but I have spoken to a couple of others who say there is no need. Sorry one last question and sorry for the highjack, but are the flashable ECU's learnable?

Aye, Mick

The ECU has enough scope to adapt...
Once my workshop is built I'm putting in my electronics bench so start the Non Flash work.

The Automatics have adaptable ECU for the transmission too... Sometimes they take a while to re-learn the new engine parameters. (Several 100kms).

U can cheat and reset the adaptations in RC / Nanocom / Testbook if u wish.. It will feel funny for a while...

[Redback]

All interesting stuff Tombie, the decrease in EGTs is what i like, may need to save up and get this 3" and maybe the Vortex if it does reduce EGTs, i do alot of towing and travel up some big hills when touring.

Baz.

EDIT

I just remembered i spoke to Bruce Davis when he was developing his exhaust system and he did mention reduced EGTs and that it would make a difference when combined with his remap.

[BradM]

Hi,
I have been doing 13 day 130 hour fortnights at the moment and have not been on the site for a couple of weeks. (Life's fun in the Pilbara at the moment, not)

The Vortex muffler was the last thing I did to my power upgrades. It was the icing on the cake after having Toombie's ECU upgrade, removing the EGR valve plus I wound the turbo wastegate up fully closed with the engine turned off. (Almost temped to see what the Disco would run on the quarter mile now).

My fuel economy pulled back almost 2 litres a hundred k's after fitting the vortex muffler and the TD5 is more responsive up top and definitely not doughy down low. So 15 to 20% fuel saving on a TD5 with the above setup is to be expected. I am happy as this has paid for the muffler now. :)

If you have a rumble at low revs then I suggest your whole exhaust system is resonating like mine was before it was fixed up. Ckeck your exhaust system mounting rubbers for splits or the holes flogged out. If you can move the system with your hand at the flexable joint you have something amiss.

Just to clarify, LandRover fitted another standard muffler under warranty when my first one's internals collapsed. It is also now down at the Karratha tip where all standard LR mufflers should be.

TRT's (Toombie's) advice has paid real dividends for my TD5's performance and economy....If you want more power and fuel economy out of your's, listen to his advice, he knows what he's talking about when it comes to Landrovers and TD5's.

Regards,
BradM

[feraldisco]

yes, the fact that there is vibration after fitting but not before suggests the fitter may have dodgied something... I'll also have to check how free-flowing the pipe bends he has put in are...

I'll probably have to leave the wastegate mod until I get the new ECU. Graeme Coopers have told me I'm not getting enough fuel which explains why I can't really rev past 2.5K unless I really push it...I do get excellent economy however!

How can you tell when a turbo motor is 'overboosting'?

[BradM]

If you cannot rev over 2,500 rpm, some thing is very amiss on your TD5.

Does it start to miss or just will not go any further? Have they measured the fuel pressure? Do you have a hole in turbo hose? Has turbo intercooler hose come off? fuel pump ok? fuel pressure regulator ok? MAF ok? oil in loom?

I think I would be getting it sorted out before I even thought about getting the ECU remapped.

Hope it's an easy one.

BradM

[feraldisco]

the interesting thing is that my Td5 is the smoothest running out of the several I've driven, and, as I said, gets very good economy. It will rev to 3K and beyond, but you're really having to step on and hold the gas...2.5K seems to be the comfort zone for changing up; after that it gets a bit breathless (fuel-less?) Ward at GC's has had a good look over it and reckons all I need is an upgraded ECU which I had intended to get anyway, so we'll see how that goes.

[Redback]

the interesting thing is that my Td5 is the smoothest running out of the several I've driven, and, as I said, gets very good economy. It will rev to 3K and beyond, but you're really having to step on and hold the gas...2.5K seems to be the comfort zone for changing up; after that it gets a bit breathless (fuel-less?) Ward at GC's has had a good look over it and reckons all I need is an upgraded ECU which I had intended to get anyway, so we'll see how that goes.

Yeah something is really amiss there, you should be able to go past 4000 RPM without any effort.

Baz.

[rick130]

Still can't see how the thing would work.
Looking at the website the theory is absolute bollocks.

Expansion chambers, cones, etc do work when situated in specific spots by influencing the sonic wave travelling back and forth in an exhaust.
The situating of these depends heavily on cam timing, etc, and what works on one engine, may or may not work on another, depending on what combination of pipe sizes, cam, etc is used.

BTW, I achieved an EGT reduction of between 23* and 40* on the 3" Tdi system too. It comes with the reduction in backpressure.

[discowhite]

so rick, just humor me for a moment. if you did think it would work and was worth having where in an open system would you put it.

ive done some fairly sketchy testing of hotdogs on my old speedway sedan and found that a foot long at almost the end of a system worked the best with the motor i had.

so on a 90 with a 3''dump and 3'' open system all mandrell bends where would you expect the best place for it would be?

cheers phil

[rick130]

Phil, I was told by an engine builder when I first started to play with Formula Fords, and a mate and I confirmed it a few years later on the dyno (do you get the feeling I don't trust anyone's say so ? :angel: ) that the best place for a muffler was right at the end of the system, but on open wheelers you are always fighting for space and a too short system anyway. (single muffler)
I always extended the pipe to the maximum allowable behind the rear axle.

I've always been told that if using a muffler and resonator, the resonator should be right at the rear, and the muffler in front of the back axle, which is usually the only place to mount it anyway.

[Tombie]

Still can't see how the thing would work.
Looking at the website the theory is absolute bollocks.

Expansion chambers, cones, etc do work when situated in specific spots by influencing the sonic wave travelling back and forth in an exhaust.
The situating of these depends heavily on cam timing, etc, and what works on one engine, may or may not work on another, depending on what combination of pipe sizes, cam, etc is used.

BTW, I achieved an EGT reduction of between 23* and 40* on the 3" Tdi system too. It comes with the reduction in backpressure.

Yes Rick, But my EGT drop was going from 3" Straight through to the Vortex:D

[Tombie]

Exhaust theory is great.. Like general physics...

But I have seen proof of a rail running an XU-1 motor, make more power using the std cast header than it did with with tuned headers..

And I make steel for a living, part of the process, which defies Physics constraints.. (Can't remember which bit - will let you know!)

Not all theory works, and not all that appears 'not to work by design' - doesnt!

[feraldisco]

ok, well I take back everything bad I said about Vortex - finally had a chance to test out the original and the Vortex system back-to-back today and also have a good look under the vehicle:

. the nutscratchers had fitted the Vortex poorly and it wasn't mated properly at the inlet to the muffler. The way they had set up the hangers, it was also contacting the vehicle itself - hence the vibration at low revs. I guess one shouldn't expect too much from muffler "mechanics".

. I've fixed both problems to a large extent (although will be revisiting the muffler people for a chat), and the difference was surprisingly dramatic, which makes me think that there must be something to this vortex theory and that even a minor gap between joins stopped it from happening properly (from past experience a minor gap in joins wouldn't make that much difference in a normal muffler). The difference wasn't just perception - I was able to hold 4th up a hill at 2750rpm that saw the revs dying and having to change down to third with the standard system. Initial spool-up is definitely improved, and the note is a nice but muffled one.

. I did actually drive the car for a few hundred metres without any muffler in place. Apart from being embarrassingly loud, I was reluctant to give it too many revs just in case the turbo could overspool/boost without any backpressure (which I doubt is the case as I've heard of people who have had their dump pipe drop off without dramas, but I wasn't going to test the theory)...

[Tombie]

Good to hear you sorted the issues..

Nothing more annoying than "Muffler Monkeys" that can't do their job properly.

[LavisLane]

Have only recently started repairing the my P38 exhaust. The guys i bought it from had replaced the faulty cats with $100 jobs to suit a Daewoo!?! By the time i'd driven it home from vic to Sydney, they'd started to split apart and the pipes had developed leaks all through the system.

I've started the fix by replacing the first half of the system from the engine to just past the new set of high end cats with 3" stainless - still need to replace the back half and thinking the Vortex may be the go. Has anyone tried one on a P38?

Also, wondering about splitting the exhaust for a dual rear, not sure if it's just cosmetic or not?

[MickG]

Currently trying to determine why the Votex site will not accept my mastercard, however, when it does I would hope to have it in a few days. What sort of $ should I expect to pay to have it fitted given the fact that I already have my muffler removed - albeit simply cut out and a straight piece of pipe welded in it's place? How much should I expect to pay to have it made up to another flange to flange?

Thanks and will report back once I have fitted and have tested which will hopefully be a few weeks;)

Also thanks for all the helpful advice on this and other exhaust threads......you guys and AULRO cost me too much money you know:(:D:D

Aye, Mick

[feraldisco]

I paid $140 (which isn't too bad in overinflated Canberra), but that included new fittings because I wanted to keep my old system...mind you, based on the 'quality' of the work, even $140 was a rip-off...

[rick130]

I paid $140 (which isn't too bad in overinflated Canberra), but that included new fittings because I wanted to keep my old system...mind you, based on the 'quality' of the work, even $140 was a rip-off...

That almost seems too cheap from the prices I've seen.
Is it the real deal ?

[feraldisco]

the question was just about fitting cost. The actual muffler was $288.50 delivered as per website order price. Therefore total cost fitted of about $430...

[BigJon]

I had a quick look at the website. I like the way they claim lower revs at cruise speeds.

Not only is it a muffler, it is an overdrive as well!!

[feraldisco]

one thing that worries me about the Vortex in turbo diesels is the small gaps between the internal structure which will presumably clog up with soot over time - does anyone know of a solvent that will effectively remove such soot every few years, or is a spray through with high pressure hose the best option?

[Redback]

I went and read the info on this muffler, WOW, pretty amazing claims, this stood out though:eek:

Additional points to observe when fitting the VORTEX unit

The VORTEX muffler must replace the vehicle’s existing main muffler.

Extraordinarily high rev count may be experienced after fitment of the VORTEX. This is quite normal, simply because the VORTEX muffler changes the way the engine performs. In this event, battery should be disconnected for a short period and then reconnected. Alternatively, vehicle may be driven for 50–100 kilometres while the computer re-adjusts to accommodate the VORTEX.

Vehicles that have been equipped with mappable ECU’s will require software upgrade in order to recognise changes introduced by the VORTEX muffler. Alternatively, the mappable ECU may be replaced with a learnable ECU.

:eek2::eek2::burnrubber:

[discowhite]

I went and read the info on this muffler, WOW, pretty amazing claims, this stood out though:eek:

Additional points to observe when fitting the VORTEX unit

The VORTEX muffler must replace the vehicle’s existing main muffler.

Extraordinarily high rev count may be experienced after fitment of the VORTEX. This is quite normal, simply because the VORTEX muffler changes the way the engine performs. In this event, battery should be disconnected for a short period and then reconnected. Alternatively, vehicle may be driven for 50–100 kilometres while the computer re-adjusts to accommodate the VORTEX.

Vehicles that have been equipped with mappable ECU’s will require software upgrade in order to recognise changes introduced by the VORTEX muffler. Alternatively, the mappable ECU may be replaced with a learnable ECU.

:eek2::eek2::burnrubber:


yep, the td5 ecu is a ''learnable'' one. if the vortex dose what it claims the above is correct.

dont know about the ''high rev count'' bit though:eek:

cheers phil

[feral]

I had a quick look at the website. I like the way they claim lower revs at cruise speeds.

Not only is it a muffler, it is an overdrive as well!!


Put two on :D:D:D:D

mmmm....I wonder what revs she'd be pulling @ 110 ;):p

[Grimace]

the only thing I can think they are tryin to say is that the motor may reach a slightly higher rev peak...??? unless they are talking about autos :confused:

I persoanlly would pay no more than $50 to have someone fit one into my current system. I got a resonator fitted to the rangie for $20 if thats anything to go by.

I also personally find a good quality hi flow muffler to be the best in regards to both sound and performance.

But I have never herd one of these vortex mufflers in action (that I know of)!

[isuzurover]

Still can't see how the thing would work.
Looking at the website the theory is absolute bollocks.

Expansion chambers, cones, etc do work when situated in specific spots by influencing the sonic wave travelling back and forth in an exhaust.
The situating of these depends heavily on cam timing, etc, and what works on one engine, may or may not work on another, depending on what combination of pipe sizes, cam, etc is used.

BTW, I achieved an EGT reduction of between 23* and 40* on the 3" Tdi system too. It comes with the reduction in backpressure.

I too am skeptical Rick. there is a lot of technical sounding gibberish on their site, and the emissions results they show are meaningless. At least they don't have "testimonials" though.

I don't doubt though that their nice smooth design with tapered ends has a low pressure drop, which may help slightly, but I cannot see how it would be much better than any of the other straight through designs.

I wish I had spare time to do CFD simulations of all these devices - would help to prove/disprove what they are saying.

[discowhite]

I too am skeptical Rick. there is a lot of technical sounding gibberish on their site, and the emissions results they show are meaningless. At least they don't have "testimonials" though.

I don't doubt though that their nice smooth design with tapered ends has a low pressure drop, which may help slightly, but I cannot see how it would be much better than any of the other straight through designs.

I wish I had spare time to do CFD simulations of all these devices - would help to prove/disprove what they are saying.

oh oh oh could this be the next provent feild test??
if so i'll send you an express post bag! how many vortex's can you fit in a $10 post bag?:twisted::twisted::twisted:

cheers phil

[feraldisco]

I understand the scepticism; however, after having taken the vehicle back to the exhaust shop to get them to do the flange and alignment properly this time, this muffler makes a noticeable difference. It is more than perception as I'm now pulling a higher gear on some hills that I drive regularly. Looking forward to getting an upgraded ECU and then I'll change between the Vortex and standard system again to see what happens at higher exhaust gas volumes - once I can rev past 3000rpm!

[MickG]

Anyone else had trouble paying with mastercard on the Vortex site or with getting in touch with them? The site will not accept my card for some reason (doesn't give a reason why, simply says unable to process this card) and they will not get back in touch with me. I'm sure they are busy but I am ready and willing to buy one if they or someone can can help me.

Aye, Mick

[BradM]

It's the extra 2 litres a hundred klms I get back that impresses me, plus the fact the TD5 easily spins well past 4000 ever upwards if you do not keep an eye on the tacho.

Just image if they had made the pots 800cc each = 4 litres of TD5.

BradM

[MickG]

Does anyone know if this site is anyone on this forum? I have e-mailed them direct, also via the web site contact page and have called the listed mobile number and left a message............so far nothing:eek:
Does anyone know where else I can get one of these mufflers for a TD5 D2?

Aye, Mick

[rick130]

D<snip>
Does anyone know where else I can get one of these mufflers for a TD5 D2?

Aye, Mick

Try Taipan exhausts up your way. I've had a few phone chats with the boss there a couple of years back when I did my system (I was looking at buying a Patrol one) and he seemed to know his stuff.

[MickG]

Try Taipan exhausts up your way. I've had a few phone chats with the boss there a couple of years back when I did my system (I was looking at buying a Patrol one) and he seemed to know his stuff.

Taipan certainly do know their stuff but they wont fit the muffler on it's own even if I supply it myself. They are really only doing full systems it would appear.....which is am not after.

Thanks anyway, Mick:D

[Tombie]

Taipan certainly do know their stuff but they wont fit the muffler on it's own even if I supply it myself. They are really only doing full systems it would appear.....which is am not after.

Thanks anyway, Mick:D

How did you go Mick? Any luck?

He has a mobile number on the site now..

[MickG]

How did you go Mick? Any luck?

He has a mobile number on the site now..

Still no luck Tombie....left messages on phone and via direct e-mail and through his site but no response. I have heard this may have been similar for others so will try again soon once I tidy a few other things up. Seems strange though, unless he was one of the lucky few who recently pocketed a few mil on the lottery:eek::D

Will also be back in touch with you soon Tombie as my car has now (yesterday) had it's head gasket fixed, exhaust manifold etc etc etc, so over the coming weeks I will be testing/running a stock falshable ECU in my car and depending on results, will look to get it over to you for "tweaking". Wont be a for a few weeks/months though due to a rediculaous amount of other expenses just now, meaning the D2 has to slip down the priority list for the time being.....which is i'm sure the case for a few right now:(

Will keep you posted and will also let you know if I ever do manage to buy a vortex muffler.

Aye, Mick

[Gullible]

Everyone is talking of the benefits for a TD5, would I get the same benefits from a V8 D1 Auto?

[MikeG]

Hi All,

The vortex sounds like a variation on the fuelsaver BS that went around years ago. In fact I once upon a time (over a decade ago) had a muffler with a spiral design, and it was absolute rubbish. Go something 300-series stainless, with rockwool/stainless steel wool filler. Avoid 400 series stainless, aluminised mild steel, mild steel and fibreglass filler. All bad, and will result in premature rusting.

I'm not permitted to advertise, so contact me privately for where to find this stuff. :(

[p38arover]

You can advertise - become a vendor. Contact Incisor.

[discowhite]

hate to tell you this... but it works!
as sceptical as i was i couldnt believe the differance it made to my td5 90.
do a search for vortex muffler fitted.

ide buy anotherone tomorrow if the guy wasnt so hard to deal with.

cheers phil



Hi All,

The vortex sounds like a variation on the fuelsaver BS that went around years ago. In fact I once upon a time (over a decade ago) had a muffler with a spiral design, and it was absolute rubbish. Go something 300-series stainless, with rockwool/stainless steel wool filler. Avoid 400 series stainless, aluminised mild steel, mild steel and fibreglass filler. All bad, and will result in premature rusting.

I'm not permitted to advertise, so contact me privately for where to find this stuff. :(

[XSiV]

Being an aircraft engineer and with some knowledge of aerodynamics and more importantly Bernoulli's theory of conservation of energy in fluid dynamics, I believe the theory behind this system is sound. I will try and explain my understanding of why I think it works in plain english.

When gasses move into a venturi (or convergent duct / smaller passage) the static pressure drops, and the velocity of the gas increases. You will also find that the temperature of the gas drops also. (You see this when you fill up your gas bottle and the top freezes as the gasses speed through the restriction into the valve)

Although the vortex muffler looks like the diameter increases, the internal core actually decrease the overall space for the gasses to flow through, in effect creating a convergent duct or venturi. This decrease in overall area to flow through, increases the velocity of the gases and decreases the temperature and the pressure of the exhaust gases. Thus the exhaust in effect gets sucked into the vortex and increases flow from the manifold.

Now as the gases exit the vortex it is in effect going into a divergent duct as the muffler again opens up into the exhaust pipe. This then would slow the gases, increase temperature and increase the static pressure, so to help with the flow the gases are swirled before exiting the muffler - thus the name vortex. This vortex of gases then in effect creates the same effect as a divergent duct as the gases enter the exhaust pipe. (Just like water going down the sink or a tornado) Inside the vortex, gas velocity is further increased, and temperature and pressure is thus further decreased also.

The gases that are now flowing through the tail end of the exhaust system after the vortex are cooler than they would have been under normal circumstances. If you cool gas it contracts and takes up less volume, therefore the pressure is less and flow is thus increased.

My conclusion is that by a number of factors the exhaust gas is cooled far more than in a normal exhaust system. If you cool gas it decreases in volume and in effect you are decreasing the amount of exhaust that needs to flow through the system. Therefore you are increasing the efficiency of your system. We all know a more efficient exhaust means a more efficient engine.

I hope this makes sense and of course I do not have a Phd and I may have this all arse about. I believe the vortex exhaust works, as I have seen the results first hand and I have tried to explain the theory with my limited knowlege of fluid dynamics. I hope this might help some of those who are unsure.

Mind you I have been trying to buy a vortex myself and have had no luck getting a response from the guy and it seems he has not paid his web hosting bill now so his site is offline. With such a revolutionary product it's a shame they run their business so poorly.

[MikeG]

As a amature motorsport competitor (15 years) and avid performance modifier and professional exhaust system retailer with more than 10 years of performance modifications experience, along with my fair share of trial and error, saying that you want slower exhaust gas velocity at the exit is nuts... You want the exhaust to flow quickly (especially in normally aspiared cars). In turbocharged vehicles, however, you want minimum backpressure, in order to assist the turbocharger to freely spool (to increase the potential between the before after sides of the turbocharger exhaust impellar) so you tend to go as big as possible, as the turbocharger provides some backpressure for low engine speeds (for cylinder extraction)

Putting little fins inside an exhaust will divert the flow of gas, thereby slowing the flow and increasing backpressure. Gas flows perfectly well inside a circular tube. You don't see any fins inside racing car exhausts - in fact most racing cars have NO exhaust tract.

These "swirl effect" devices have been around for years, and are generally rubbish. If it was any good, you'd have seen these things on race cars. Seriously... You do see some improvements in the intake of carby engines, as it improves flow - much in the way that a bell-mouth does... And you see bell mouths in OEM airboxes due to this fact - as they're easier to make and more effective than fins.

Show me the before and after dyno runs (comparing apples with apples of course - ie with chip tuning). Without chip tuning, you'll find all sorts of bizarre fuelling issues, sometimes manifesting as power increases caused by dangerously lean mixtures (a good sign that the exhaust is working) but which will over inflate power increase readings as the engine is likely to detonate and cause damage to pistons, etc.

I suspect if you replace a stock muffler with one of these, you'll find a slight increase. If you're happy with that, then great. (maybe half a hp) Though many people will rely on seat of the pants, which is essentially that it sounds better...

But if you want a real muffler - checkout some of the better brands, like Borla or Supersprint... (they are available at lots of retailers - google is your friend) - they use patented technology such as XR-1 and powerloop systems which ARE used on race cars... :) In fact the powerloop technology is blatantly copied by XForce here in Oz.

Mike.

[discowhite]

saying that you want slower exhaust gas velocity at the exit is nuts... You want the exhaust to flow quickly (especially in normally aspiared cars).


i didnt read that in the xsiv's comments at all.

i need to metion that the 90's exhaust was 3'' from the turbo, all mandrell pipe the dump was lagged and coated. the mid muffler was replaced with the 3'' vortex but the from the diff on i retained the OE 70mm pipe and resinator. i did this under direction of diphillipo exhausts (anyone in motorsport should know who they are) the idea was that the rear section being smaller and having cooler gasses in it would keep the gas speed up.

as i said in this post http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/67286-vortex-fitted.html

i honestly didnt think i would ''feel'' such a change, but i did.

cheers phil

[scott oz]

replaced with the 3'' vortex but the from the diff on i retained the OE 70mm pipe and resinator. i did this under direction of diphillipo exhausts (anyone in motorsport should know who they are) the idea was that the rear section being smaller and having cooler gasses in it would keep the gas speed up.

Way out of my depth here.

But I was always under the understanding that gas would expand to fill the space it occupied. So surely by taking it from a 3” system back to a 2” (70mm) system would reduce efficiency.

Gas comes out of a 3” system into the vortex out the vortex into to a 3” system cooler and at higher speed. Then gets to the end and is forced back through a 2” system and resonator?

Probably not much difference over a such a short distance maybe not detectable but I struggle with leaving the smaller diameter at the end?

[isuzurover]

When gasses move into a venturi (or convergent duct / smaller passage) the static pressure drops, and the velocity of the gas increases. You will also find that the temperature of the gas drops also. (You see this when you fill up your gas bottle and the top freezes as the gasses speed through the restriction into the valve).

However the pressure drop across most venturis is HUGE. Especially your gas valve example!

I cannot see how this can flow better than something like a straight through glass packed muffler.

[XSiV]

However the pressure drop across most venturis is HUGE. Especially your gas valve example!

I cannot see how this can flow better than something like a straight through glass packed muffler.

The pressure drop would be proportional to the ratio of change in square area of the inlet and outlet of the venturi

I explained it all in the post, as the gas velocity increases, pressure and temperature decreases, by dropping the temperature of the gas, the gas contracts and you effectively have less volume of gas to move. This is what would make it more efficient than a straight through glass packed muffler that does not change the temperature or pressure or velocity of the gas. If anything a straight through muffler would have a slight decrease in velocity due to drag and this would by all rights increase the temp of the gases and therefore mean you have a greater volume of gas to move. I must stress that this would be minimal though.

[XSiV]

Way out of my depth here.

But I was always under the understanding that gas would expand to fill the space it occupied. So surely by taking it from a 3” system back to a 2” (70mm) system would reduce efficiency.

Gas comes out of a 3” system into the vortex out the vortex into to a 3” system cooler and at higher speed. Then gets to the end and is forced back through a 2” system and resonator?

Probably not much difference over a such a short distance maybe not detectable but I struggle with leaving the smaller diameter at the end?

Possibly, if the temperature of the gas drops enough the volume of the gas would decrease to such a point that the smaller pipe would not restrict it. In fact it might even help the flow by acting as another venturi further increasing gas velocity and decreasing gas temp and pressure.

[slug_burner]

I have never studied fluid dynamics. If what I say is way off then you will know why.

I always thought that the reason for the temperature drop in the exhaust gass was due to the fact that heat was being lost to the atmosphere through the pipe. I can handle the need to drop the pipe size as the gas cools in order to retain the gas speed.


I must admit that I do have some problems understanding how the vortex muffler is any different to the hi-clone which claims to allow gases to swirl and therefore improve the efficiency of the inlet side of the air pump. I belive that the hi-clone or what ever it is called has been discredited by some large public institutions like the EPA in the US.

I think the bell mouth is just a means by which to reduce the pressure pulse reflection which you get from a sudden change in pipe diameter.

[isuzurover]

I have never studied fluid dynamics. If what I say is way off then you will know why.

I always thought that the reason for the temperature drop in the exhaust gass was due to the fact that heat was being lost to the atmosphere through the pipe. I can handle the need to drop the pipe size as the gas cools in order to retain the gas speed.


I must admit that I do have some problems understanding how the vortex muffler is any different to the hi-clone which claims to allow gases to swirl and therefore improve the efficiency of the inlet side of the air pump. I belive that the hi-clone or what ever it is called has been discredited by some large public institutions like the EPA in the US.

I think the bell mouth is just a means by which to reduce the pressure pulse reflection which you get from a sudden change in pipe diameter.

Xsiv is talking about adiabatic cooling. Which is related to PV=nRT. As you reduce pressure you reduce the molecular collisions and therefore decrease temperature.

I still believe that swirling the air around and reducing the diameter through a "venturi" would create more drag and higher DP than a straight through pipe. If I ever get a spare minute I will run a CFD simulation to prove it. Does anyone have time to draw up a 3D model of the muffler - I would need it in IGES or ACIS format. Dougal???

[XSiV]

I have never studied fluid dynamics. If what I say is way off then you will know why.

I always thought that the reason for the temperature drop in the exhaust gass was due to the fact that heat was being lost to the atmosphere through the pipe. I can handle the need to drop the pipe size as the gas cools in order to retain the gas speed.


I must admit that I do have some problems understanding how the vortex muffler is any different to the hi-clone which claims to allow gases to swirl and therefore improve the efficiency of the inlet side of the air pump. I belive that the hi-clone or what ever it is called has been discredited by some large public institutions like the EPA in the US.

I think the bell mouth is just a means by which to reduce the pressure pulse reflection which you get from a sudden change in pipe diameter.

Just for the record, I have no idea about how a hi-clone is supposed to work and I have not even looked at one. I don't remember even mentioning a hi-clone.

All I have done is try and explain how IN THEORY using proven laws of physics, the Vortex could create the benefits described by those who have one.

I am not even saying that this is what it actually does. I have no idea as the product is patented. I had a brief look at the cross section they had on their website before it was taken down and from that I have created an hypothesis using my limited knowledge of fluid dynamics.

If you don't believe it that is fine, you can do all you wish to disprove Bernoulli, though his laws have stood the test of time and it is the exact same properties that keeps a 747 in the air. You can't deny that a 747 flies. ;)

[XSiV]

Xsiv is talking about adiabatic cooling. Which is related to PV=nRT. As you reduce pressure you increase the molecular collisions and therefore decrease temperature

I think you made a typo, could you have meant it would decrease the molecular collisions? - less molecules per cubic area, more space between molecules = less collisions = less friction = less temperature

[isuzurover]

I think you made a typo, could you have meant it would decrease the molecular collisions? - less molecules per cubic area, more space between molecules = less collisions = less friction = less temperature

Yes, thanks for spotting that. Decrease.

As for disproving (Daniel) Bernoulli (there were two of them), his theorem just states that velocity and pressure are inversely proportional in inviscid fluids. I have no intention of disproving him, as this is true, and has been proven many times.

[scott oz]

Still way out of my depth in this topic.

But I thought gas when you compressed it generated heat and when it flowed to a larger space it caused a temperature drop. So using the gas bottle filling as an example.

The cause of the chilling on the valve is not a result of the gas speed travelling down the line through the valve into the bottle but rather the compressed gas leaving a smaller tube and entering a larger void (the bottle).

So gas going through a 3” system entering a smaller diameter pipe (vortex or exhaust end section) would be detrimental to exhaust performance?

[Dougal]

Does anyone have time to draw up a 3D model of the muffler - I would need it in IGES or ACIS format. Dougal???

Not a good time for me unfortunately. I'm trying to wrap up jobs so I can move my house, business and workshop.
Try P Simpson, I know he has the capability.:)

[Furka]

Up ! Interesting post :)

[Reg]

I have been reading this old thread on replacing the centre muffler with a high flow unit. Are they still recommended? i have a TD5. Are the vortex still available in aus and if so where can I get one?

[Tombie]

Not made anymore.

Closest is a TaipanXP system.

[SPROVER]

Just a bit off topic but while im in here:D Is it worth taking out that massive center muffler from the Td5 Disco and replacing it with a straight bit of pipe instead? Im not worried if its a little bit louder.I've come from a V8 Disco so any sort of sound change from standard diesel sound would be good.:p:D

[Tombie]

Yes!

And a search of this site will yield a lot of other posts...

[SPROVER]

Yes!

And a search of this site will yield a lot of other posts...

No probs...Thanks!

[uninformed]

Not made anymore.

Closest is a TaipanXP system.

Tombie, I thought TaipanXP had bought Vortex?