4BD1 Provent Install

[isuzurover]

Hi, for the 4BD1 owners, I have started the install, but this is in conjunction with a turbo install, so it won't be an overnight thing.

Firstly apologies for my filthy engine!!!

OK - unlike the inferior landie engines, there are 2 breather points you need to plumb into the provent.
1. - rocker cover breather:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/1147.jpg

2. side cover breather:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/05/48.jpg

[isuzurover]

First step is to remove the factory breather:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/12/1109.jpg

The metal tube coming off the engine side plate is a whopping 1.5" OD. The rubber hose on the factory breather reduces that to 1.25" - which is the OD of the breather inlet.

The breather next to the Provent - makes the provent look small!
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/05/44.jpg

The tube on the side of the engine:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/09/1196.jpg

This is where I will be installing mine. Plenty of room, good location to route piping, and well away from turbo:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/05/45.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/05/46.jpg

I will be connecting the drain to the vacuum pump drain (and replacing the dodgy hose clamps at the same time!):
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/05/47.jpg

[isuzurover]

Turbo install completed! (I wish)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/09/739.jpg

:D:D:D:D

On a serious note, can anyone see a problem with brazing a fitting onto this plate for the oil drain? It would seem the most direct return route...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/09/740.jpg

[EchiDna]

no input of value for you, but geez mate that sure is a filthy motor :)

found my head twisting left and right to orientate the photos intot he vertical position too... never done it with a map, but photos need it IMHO...

[isuzurover]

no input of value for you, but geez mate that sure is a filthy motor :)

found my head twisting left and right to orientate the photos intot he vertical position too... never done it with a map, but photos need it IMHO...

Photos better now???

Yeah I know - should have cleaned it before I started pulling it down. WA isn't as sandy as people think.

[JDNSW]

If you mean the plate with the mud splash on it, that is, unless I am mistaken, the oil pump cover, and I'm not sure it gives free access to the sump. You could pull it off and investigate, though.

John

[rar110]

Ben, that plate sits above the oil pump I've been told. That is where my turbo drains to. I think Justin also put a oil drain on that plate when he fitted a turbo. The factory turbo set up has a drain on the vertical plate (two bolt oval shaped) a bit lower on the motor and to the left. The plate you nominated is more easily accessable.

I was looking at leaving the rubber reducer and fitting a steel section of pipe the same diameter to join up with a hose to the provent. You could just hack off a part of the tube from old set up. Its the right diameter.

regards

Peter

[long stroke]

I'm interested!
A dirty motor doesn't effect the peformance so what are you complaining about:D

[isuzurover]

Ben, that plate sits above the oil pump I've been told. That is where my turbo drains to. I think Justin also put a oil drain on that plate when he fitted a turbo. The factory turbo set up has a drain on the vertical plate (two bolt oval shaped) a bit lower on the motor and to the left. The plate you nominated is more easily accessable.

I was looking at leaving the rubber reducer and fitting a steel section of pipe the same diameter to join up with a hose to the provent. You could just hack off a part of the tube from old set up. Its the right diameter.

regards

Peter

Thanks Pete. I thought about chopping a bit off the factory breather. I will either do that or make something up from scratch that incorporates a tee for the rocker line.

[Dougal]

Turbo install completed! (I wish)[/IMG]

Your t28? What's it from?

[Bush65]

The 4BD1-T doesn't have the breather on the tappet chamber cover. Only the one from the rocker cover.

But the rocker cover is different - I don't know if the oil separator inside the rocker cover is the same. And the 4BD1-T has a cyclonic separator, which drains oil back to the engine and vents to atmosphere (not legal now).

I agree with what rar110 posted, except for the description of the turbo oil drain on a 4BD1-T - I have probably misunderstood what he meant. The drain tube bolts to the side of the crankcase casting.

[isuzurover]

Your t28? What's it from?

SR20DET / S14 Silvia (I feel like I should be talking text-speak and wearing my jeans lower when I say that :D)


The 4BD1-T doesn't have the breather on the tappet chamber cover. Only the one from the rocker cover.

But the rocker cover is different - I don't know if the oil separator inside the rocker cover is the same. And the 4BD1-T has a cyclonic separator, which drains oil back to the engine and vents to atmosphere (not legal now).

I agree with what rar110 posted, except for the description of the turbo oil drain on a 4BD1-T - I have probably misunderstood what he meant. The drain tube bolts to the side of the crankcase casting.

Thanks John. You mean they don't have the side-cover vent? Interesting...

As I have posted elsewhere - an oil-mist cyclone is about 50% efficient (mass-based). The provent should be 90-99%. You could vent the existing cyclone into the intake like on a Tdi, but then you would have the same oily intercooler and sooty turbo problems they have...

[Dougal]

SR20DET / S14 Silvia (I feel like I should be talking text-speak and wearing my jeans lower when I say that :D)

Yeah I bought my current T25 from a ricer-boy too.:D



Thanks John. You mean they don't have the side-cover vent? Interesting...

As I have posted elsewhere - an oil-mist cyclone is about 50% efficient (mass-based). The provent should be 90-99%. You could vent the existing cyclone into the intake like on a Tdi, but then you would have the same oily intercooler and sooty turbo problems they have...

My original 4BD1T mist seperator was crap, the intake pipe blew onto a plate, the plate extended most of the way down to the drain. The blowby exit tube extended up to almost the top of the can.
I made a new one which is a cyclone (kind of 2 stage) and it's much better, but I still get enough oil mist to make sure my intake pipes never rust.:)

I'll stump up for a provent one-day. My rangie is playing garage ornament at the moment.

[rar110]

Hi John. I was trying to describe what was in that photo you sent me. I should just post it, bit tricky to describe. The plate is not really oval.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9330/oil20returnxv2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9330/oil20returnxv2.7c98171440.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=407&i=oil20returnxv2.jpg)

[isuzurover]

Thanks guys.

My 4BD1 block has a couple of posts where the 2 bolts go, but it looks like the area needs to be milled flat and a couple of threads tapped.

[Bush65]

Hi John. I was trying to describe what was in that photo you sent me. I should just post it, bit tricky to describe. The plate is not really oval...
I think I understand what you meant now.

The plate you referred to is the mounting flange on the drain pipe - it is part of the drain pipe.

[Bush65]

Thanks guys.

My 4BD1 block has a couple of posts where the 2 bolts go, but it looks like the area needs to be milled flat and a couple of threads tapped.
Yes, but I wouldn't go to that trouble. Just go into the cover plate over the oil pump drive.

[Bush65]

.... You mean they don't have the side-cover vent? ...
That's correct - only the one from the rocker cover.


.... As I have posted elsewhere - an oil-mist cyclone is about 50% efficient (mass-based). The provent should be 90-99%. You could vent the existing cyclone into the intake like on a Tdi, but then you would have the same oily intercooler and sooty turbo problems they have...
I fully understand. I only intended to point out breather system differences between the 4BD1 and 4BD1-T and thought it relevant to include the oil separator.

I will replace the Isuzu separator on my 4BD1-T with a Provent. Before I was aware of Provents, I was intending to fit a 2nd separator after the Isuzu separator, so that I could connect the vent to the turbo inlet (for engineering compliance).

[rar110]

Must be some minor variations between motors. Mine has the plate held in place by two bolts, just without the drain tube.

[isuzurover]

Yes, but I wouldn't go to that trouble. Just go into the cover plate over the oil pump drive.

Thanks John - I wasn't intending to!!!

Peter - Interesting... Maybe the mil-spec engines are all like that?

[rovercare]

Thanks John - I wasn't intending to!!!

Peter - Interesting... Maybe the mil-spec engines are all like that?

I'm tipping so, as the 2 civvy ones I have don't and the mil one does;)

[isuzurover]

I'm tipping so, as the 2 civvy ones I have don't and the mil one does;)

So you have 3 4BD1s??? Are you cornering the market??? :D

[rovercare]

So you have 3 4BD1s??? Are you cornering the market??? :D

120"

one thats sold

one that's going in my RR

Turbo and manifold will be here next week, so with any luck, it'll all be together in less than a fortnight:o

[Dougal]

Must be some minor variations between motors. Mine has the plate held in place by two bolts, just without the drain tube.

Sounds like you've got a turbo block. Do you know what year your engine is, what type of rocker cover does it have? Flat, short hump or long hump?

[rar110]

Sounds like you've got a turbo block. Do you know what year your engine is, what type of rocker cover does it have? Flat, short hump or long hump?

I bought it as a rolling chassis with engine and civilian intermediate shaft setup. The chassis had been redipped so as the engine had been removed I thought it may not be original. But checked with landrover who said the engine matches the chassis. it's a 1989 FFR 110. The rocker cover is flat like the civilian land rover versions.

[flagg]

Hi Ben,

Do you have any pics or diagrams of your final (with turbo) provent install? I bought one and while I get the general idea, it didn't come with installation instructions..

Cheers!

[isuzurover]

Hi Ben,

Do you have any pics or diagrams of your final (with turbo) provent install? I bought one and while I get the general idea, it didn't come with installation instructions..

Cheers!

No, sorry. What would you like to know?

[flagg]

Thanks Ben, couple of things:

Is the vent on the non-turbo rocker cover big enough? If not, do I need to replace the tapped cover as well as the rocker cover for the 4BD1T to get the larger vent?
Where is the best place to plumb the return? should it go to the sump, or ?

[isuzurover]

Thanks Ben, couple of things:

Is the vent on the non-turbo rocker cover big enough? If not, do I need to replace the tapped cover as well as the rocker cover for the 4BD1T to get the larger vent?
Where is the best place to plumb the return? should it go to the sump, or ?

The tappet cover net on NA landie engines is too small - only 8 mm. If you are going to T-in both tappet and side plate breathers like I did initially then that will work.

I swapped to a turbo setup (larger tappet breather and no side plate breather). The turbo tappet cover breather is 19 mm.

A drain straight to the sump is the best option. However T-ing into the vaccuum pump breather drain should also work. Make sure you use a one-way valve in the drain.

[flagg]

Thanks heaps.

[HotWired]

Where is everyone connecting the filtered air outlet back onto the engine? Is it just that small tube on the intake pipe?

[isuzurover]

Where is everyone connecting the filtered air outlet back onto the engine? Is it just that small tube on the intake pipe?

At the moment I am just running an open vent system. You can plumb it back into the engine intake anywhere pre-turbo. the OEM breather connection is both too small and on the wrong side of the turbo (after turbo fitment).

the connection should be 1"

[steveG]

My setup is:
- Provent located at front of LH wing just behind the top radiator bracket
- Provent inlet connected to NA tappet cover
- NA rocker cover hose tee'd into the Provent inlet hose (near the tappet cover)
- Return air from Provent connected into the inlet between air filter and turbo
- Oil return is plumbed into the tappet cover via non-return valve - but I'd prefer it went straight down into the sump as the plumbing would be nicer.

25K km's so far with no issues.

Edit: BTW - is there a recommended clean/change period for the element?

Steve

[isuzurover]

...

Edit: BTW - is there a recommended clean/change period for the element?

...

Unlike dust/air filters, more frequent cleaning/changing is better. However you could wait until the pressure drop gets to 50 mBar and the valve in the cap pops open... (you will notice this by oil running down the side of the PV housing).

The filter should be good for ~5000 hrs.

[Dougal]

If you want to run it plumbed back into the intake, then I'd recommend the anti-siphon valve is installed in the drain.

[The Mutt]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The big vent down low on the left side of the engine connects to the Provent, and the Provent connects somewhere between the air cleaner and turbo.

Where does the little tube on the bottom of the Provent go?

Can the upper vent tube coming out of the rocker cover on the engines right side also be connected to the Provent?

Glenn

[Bush65]

Engine breather/breathers, connect to inlet of provent.

Provent separates oil mist from air, and gravity takes oil to the bottom outlet, while air exits the upper outlet.

The separated oil can be returned to the sump, either directly, or captured in a container for later return to sump.

The air can be vented to atmosphere (not environmentally kosher) or to the engine inlet, before turbo.

Apparently when environmental rules mandated the engine breather vent to the engine intake, the turbo life of long haul trucks was being affected by fine oil particles in the air impacting the compressor impeller, thus the provent was developed.

We don't use our vehicles enough to have that turbo problem. The provent won't make your engine perform any better or be more reliable. It may however help the environment.

[isuzurover]

Corrections added for the PV200.


Engine breather/breathers, connect to inlet of provent (THE UPPER OF THE TWO 1" CONNECTIONS).

Provent separates oil mist from air, and gravity takes oil to the bottom outlet (0.5"), while air exits the LOWER 1" outlet.

The separated oil can be returned to the sump, either directly, or captured in a container for later return to sump. NOTE that this oil will be less viscous and have less soot than the oil in the sump - so better to have it in the engine.

The air can be vented to atmosphere (not environmentally kosher) or to the engine inlet, before turbo.

Apparently when environmental rules mandated the engine breather vent to the engine intake, the turbo life of long haul trucks was being affected by fine oil particles in the air impacting the compressor impeller, thus the provent was developed.Actually it is the soot in the oil. The oil evaporates but the soot stays behind and forms a grinding paste...

We don't use our vehicles enough to have that turbo problem. The provent won't make your engine perform any better or be more reliable. It may however help the environment.

[The Mutt]

I we into the Arndell Park office of Mann and Hummel Today and had a good talk with the Tech guys, how they suggest I hook up the Provent is to add a 'T' into the line combining the upper rocker vent to the PCV hose, connect to the upper Provent connection, add an input to our Donadson air cleaner where the turbo connection is for the output of the Provent to vent back between the air cleaner and the turbo, the small output on the bottom of the Provent has a check valve in-line and connects to another 'T' connector in the Turbo oil return line.

I then went to Sydney Filters Services behind Mann and Hummel to purchase a Provent and check valve.

I think I know what I'm doing this Weekend, over the next couple of days I'll get some clamps, hoses and 'T' connectors.

Glenn

[isuzurover]

I we into the Arndell Park office of Mann and Hummel Today and had a good talk with the Tech guys, how they suggest I hook up the Provent is to add a 'T' into the line combining the upper rocker vent to the PCV hose, connect to the upper Provent connection, add an input to our Donadson air cleaner where the turbo connection is for the output of the Provent to vent back between the air cleaner and the turbo, the small output on the bottom of the Provent has a check valve in-line and connects to another 'T' connector in the Turbo oil return line.

I then went to Sydney Filters Services behind Mann and Hummel to purchase a Provent and check valve.

I think I know what I'm doing this Weekend, over the next couple of days I'll get some clamps, hoses and 'T' connectors.

Glenn

Glenn - I forgot to add before - I made this to tee the two breathers together when I first fitted my provent.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/Sept-08-turbo-conv002.jpg
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/Sept-08-turbo-conv002.jpg

I no longer need it now I have the turbo breather setup, so it is yours if you want it.

I also cut and shut the OEM breather to form this (which I should also still have):
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/Sept-08-turbo-conv005.jpg
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p29/isuzurover/LR_PICS/Sept-08-turbo-conv005.jpg

[The Mutt]

I purchased a 'T' block, one 12.7mm (1/2 inch) barbed connector and two of the big barb connectors from Enzed this afternoon, also purchased a 12.7mm (1/2 inch) 'T' connector for the turbo oil return line, I might have to bend some tube for the big hose, my OEM breather didn't have the 90 degree bend it it like yours.

I had a look under the bonnet dark this afternoon, I have to relocate the battery isolator so I can move the Donaldson air cleaner further forward.

How are others connecting the air return between the air cleaner and the turbo, I was thinking of adding a large barb tap to the Donaldson tube that the air hose connects to.


Glenn

[flagg]

How are others connecting the air return between the air cleaner and the turbo, I was thinking of adding a large barb tap to the Donaldson tube that the air hose connects to.

On the aircleaner housing? From memory the air is filtered from the outside in so the only way to get to the post filter air is after the housing and pre-turbo.. Although I guess you could have it pre-filter? Doesn't seem right though..

[Shingleback]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mutt
How are others connecting the air return between the air cleaner and the turbo, I was thinking of adding a large barb tap to the Donaldson tube that the air hose connects to.

^ yes this would work^


I just connected my air return the other day. On mine I have a short bit (~100mm) of 3" stainless tube connecting the two 3" silicon hoses between air cleaner and turbo. I simply drilled an 1" hole and welded an 1" gal steel barb to it. I used a bit of 1" oil resistant hose to join to provent. I welded the barb on at an angle to suit.
Cheers, Andrew.

[Ancient Mariner]

Has any one considered an exhaust ejector for the road draft system :eek:
Probably a nutcase idear and not legal but no hot oil smell:D

[The Mutt]

I just connected my air return the other day. On mine I have a short bit (~100mm) of 3" stainless tube connecting the two 3" silicon hoses between air cleaner and turbo. I simply drilled an 1" hole and welded an 1" gal steel barb to it. I used a bit of 1" oil resistant hose to join to provent. I welded the barb on at an angle to suit.
Cheers, Andrew.

I have 3 inch spiral air line connecting the air cleaner and the turbo, it has wire embedded in the spiral to keep it from collapsing, I'm thinking of cutting a hole into it and riveting plates either side so that a return air connection can be added. Would have already been done, had to go to Wagga Wagga for a few days on business.

Glenn

[steveG]

I just connected my air return the other day. On mine I have a short bit (~100mm) of 3" stainless tube connecting the two 3" silicon hoses between air cleaner and turbo. I simply drilled an 1" hole and welded an 1" gal steel barb to it. I used a bit of 1" oil resistant hose to join to provent. I welded the barb on at an angle to suit.
Cheers, Andrew.

Thats pretty much what I've got.

Steve

[Judo]

Thats pretty much what I've got.

Steve
Want to weld me one of those? :D

This is one of the pieces I can't figure out how to buy or make without a welder.

[steveG]

Want to weld me one of those? :D

This is one of the pieces I can't figure out how to buy or make without a welder.

What diameter intake are you running? If its 3" you're probably in luck (assuming I've still got some 1" stainless around somewhere).

Flick me a PM with diameter and how long you need the intake piece (or I can just allow 30mm or so each side of the 1" for clamping to).

Steve

[flagg]

I wish I had more room between the turbo and the cleaner.. I'm going to have to do something with the cobra.

[flagg]

I'm almost ready to give up due to space, there is very little room between my air filter and turbo.

Is there anything wrong with connecting the air return pre air filter? Even when hot and driven at 22psi there is no noticeable residue in the outlet. It is just a matter of space :(

[Judo]

What about something like this on the rubber elbow?

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=212&products_id=500&osCsid=7cbfbc3c679f0cc7fdc47c2852804f69

[steveG]

I'm almost ready to give up due to space, there is very little room between my air filter and turbo.

Is there anything wrong with connecting the air return pre air filter? Even when hot and driven at 22psi there is no noticeable residue in the outlet. It is just a matter of space :(

Personally I wouldn't put it pre-airfilter. You might not see anything noticeable now, but it could be a different story once the vehicle is heavily loaded for a trip, or towing. I think it would only take a small bit of oil to clog a paper filter pretty badly.

How about extending the outlet on the filter housing so that comes around the bend as steel rather than the rubber elbow. You could then easily weld a fitting onto it.

Steve