S3 died on the way home

[DiscoDave]

I took my Series 3 109 for a Sunday drive this afternoon. It was a fairly bumpy ride and everything got well shaken around. At one point on the track, 1st gear 4WD engaged, I had a sudden loss of power and had to pull up, whereupon the 6cylinder stalled. This didn't surprise me too much as I've just repaired a badly leaking exhaust manifold joint and it's been a bit prone to stalling since then (but that's another story). Got it started again but she ran badly and backfired a few times before settling down to running normally. I completed the rough part of the track okay and got back onto the Bells Line of Road to drive home when suddenly no power, pull over to the side of the road and she stalls and doesn't want to start.
Reseated the plug and dizzy leads, checked the coil wasn't overheating, checked fuel was coming out of the carbi side of the fuel filter. Can't find anything wrong.
I could get the engine started with plenty of choke but she blows white smoke unless I give her lots of choke. Then after a few minutes she dies or if I put the choke in she dies.
It was getting dark and starting to rain so I left her beside the road and rang for a lift home.
Any advice on what to look for would be appreciated as I'll be going out there tomorrow to work on it.

[PAT303]

The points aren't burnt are they or closed up abit from the rough stuff?. Pat

[DiscoDave]

Thanks for the suggestion I didn't check that.
However the problem disappeared and I got another kilometre down the road before it all happened again so I wouldn't have thought it was an adjustment gone wrong?

[mike 90 RR]

Hi Disco Dave

Some thoughts on your subject ;)

I would:
1: Take another coil out with you
2: Check the advance mechanism inside the Dizzy & check the vacum advance (suck on tube)
3: Don't know if you are running a resisted coil block / so feed 12v (hot wire the coil)
4: take a spare set of leads / plugs & Dizzy cap
5: Dizzy cap could have a hair line crack / replace
6: Compression test

7: WORST CASE.... is the motor is old? / I don't know if the cam is cog & chain driven / if so then the timing chain is too loose and it has moved a tooth / take off rocker cover & rock piston over TDC and watch for the position of tappet trick ( piston 6 going exhaust to Inlet)

Can't think of anything else, other than worst case of (white smoke) blown head gasket :mad:

Hopefully it will just be something silly

Mike

[mike 90 RR]

The points aren't burnt are they or closed up a bit from the rough stuff?. Pat

And what about the little silver capacitor connected to the coil or the points
Sometimes they short out / just disconnect it / as they only help your points from burning

Also the bumps can dislodge the earth wire inside the dizzy (That exposed braided one)

[blitz]

Just a thought how about the fuel fiter? all that bouncing around could have stirred up a pile of muck and partially blocked it.

Blythe

[blitz]

Just a thought how about the fuel filter? all that bouncing around could have stirred up a pile of muck and partially blocked it, or nsome muck could have gotten into your jets which may be why you need the choke on.

Blythe

[AlexH]

Changing the rotor might be worth a try too - years ago a mate & I were coming home from a trip in his 6cyl S3 and it died - we left it there & returned a couple of times to try to fix it before we finally replaced the rotor - presto! Problem solved....

[LandyAndy]

Original Landy 6????
If so I will almost bet my left nut the dashpot in the carby needs topping up with oil.
Mine used to behave exactly the same way.
Misbehaves firstly on hills then on the flat too.
Let us know!!!!
Goodluck
Andrew

[mike 90 RR]

Original Landy 6????
If so I will almost bet my left nut the dashpot in the carby needs topping up with oil.
Mine used to behave exactly the same way.
Misbehaves firstly on hills then on the flat too.
Let us know!!!!
Goodluck
Andrew

LandyAndy
Are they the sidedraft SU's ????

[DiscoDave]

I'm not even doing too well online - AULRO is as slow as a wet week for me tonight...

Mike90RR - Thanks for all your suggestions. :) The motor is original i.e. 1974 but hasn't done a huge amount of K's as far as I know - about 40,000 on the clock. It has been running fine to date.

Blitz - Thank you. :) My thoughts as well but plenty of fuel comes out of the carbi side of the filter when I unscrew the hose fitting. Jets? ...how do I check/clean them?

AlexH - Thanks for your hint. :) The 6 cylinder has an odd shaped rotor doesn't it? ...and, of course, I don't have a spare.

Landy Andy - Thanks for your idea. :) I hope it will be that simple... There is some oil in the dashpot. Whether there is enough I will have to check. What kind of oil do you recommend? I've read conflicting advice over whether to use engine oil or only 'light' oil.

[mike 90 RR]

What kind of oil for dashpot?

The "Haines" manual says for "Zenith Stromberg" ... Normal engine oil filled to 6mm of the top

If you have a spare carby, grab one for the "Rubber diaphram" just in case it's cuput (white smoke)

[DiscoDave]

Okay Mike, thanks!

[muddy]

Dave
Have you proved that you have spark at the plugs individualy and if you have a timing light try it an each lead to ckeck if they are firing. I hand a similar problem rescently and it turned out to be leads breaking down under load. Hope this helps
Maurice

[LandyAndy]

Hi Dave
Light oil is reccomended,Ive read sewing machine oil on here before.
Had to fix mine once before by droping some sump oil via the sump bolt into a freshly emptied beer can:cool::cool::cool::cool:
Try topping up before anything else!!!!
Andrew

[DiscoDave]

Well I spent 4 hours at the vehicle today and didn't achieve much.
I filled the dashpot with light oil - it was very low - it made no difference.
Swapped the coil and all the HT leads - no difference.
Cleaned the rotor button and visually checked the points open and close.
Changed the fuel filter - it was very dirty - no difference.
Sprayed carbi cleaner into the carbi - no difference.
Removed the exhaust (because this was the last thing fiddled with) - no difference except it's noisier.
Removed and cleaned spark plugs - all okay and pink except No.5 which was oily and dirty (could have picked this up on the way out).
Removed the small capacitor from the dizzy - now it wont start so I put it back.
Removed the carbi horn and sprayed in more carbi cleaner.

Somewhere along the way there has been a slight improvement in that she will idle with no choke now. The idle lasts for maybe 3 minutes getting progressively rougher and slower, then dies. If I rev the engine it will rev okay for maybe a minute, although I can hear misfiring, then it suddenly dies like I switched off the ignition. I can turn the ignition key off then on, wait for the fuel pump to stop ticking and she will start again, first turn of the key, and do exactly the same thing - idle for three minutes and die or rev for a minute and die.
Am I seeing fuel starvation here?

[Waxenwane]

Sounds like blocked jets, try syringing some fuel into the carb throat while it's running. I say that as it sounds like it has improved a bit since you've sprayed carbi cleaner at it, could be the rough track has stirred up sediment in the tank.
Good luck with it, it's always a pia on the roadside.

[JohnE]

Dave you have a started a good fault finding 6 cyl thread without realising it. Stuff to remember for when i get mine going!
Hmm have absolutely no idea on these motors, but ,
from reading each point and symptom you describe, this is only a guess, though, a along the same lines as yours,
fuel starvation, have you checked the output on the fuel pump, if its the orginal,it may not be earthing properly on the bracket it sits on and once the motor starts it could be vibrating shorting out and stopping the flow.
Its the idel thats seems to give it away, starts ok then rough then stops.

just a guess on something you haven;t covered.


john

[victa125]

symptoms are possibly caused by failure of the booster diaghfram also could have some brake fluid in the booster

[mike 90 RR]

Dave
I take it that you got her home OK ? ;)

I usually associate miss-firing to electrical or inlet valve problems ;)
Blast ... we gave out enough suggestions to raise the Titanic :eek: / Go Figure???

Dirty fuel filter , have shook all the dirt up the line? Being a carby, they don't require much pressure to fill so
Can you test it via slinging a can of petrol from above and gravity feed the carby??? you can't drive it, but you can rev it

In the end, You may have to do a full inspection of the fuel, electrics, & distributor parts

ALSO did you change the dizzy cap, rotor button , test vacume advance ???

[Rosco]

Just a point about hand feeding the carby. Do it with caution. My oldest bro ended up in hosp many years back as a result. It backfired through the carby and he copped a very good singe:eek2: .......... Full ex foliation of the face and throat.

[mike 90 RR]

Just a point about hand feeding the carby. Do it with caution. My oldest bro ended up in hosp many years back as a result. It backfired through the carby and he copped a very good singe:eek2: .......... Full ex foliation of the face and throat.

Your right Rosco
Never HAND FEED a carby ... I've seen engine bays go up in flames because of this .... The only way is "Gravity feed" via a can with a tap ... hung up above and away from the engine, through a rubber fuel line connected to the inlet side of carby

[DiscoDave]

Thanks for everyone's comments and suggestions. Keep them coming!

Dave
I take it that you got her home OK ? ;)

Nope, she's still parked in a convenient field off the side of the road in Bilpin. I was going to hire a trailer today and use the Disco to tow her home BUT the brake boost has just gone intermittent on the Disco! I thought "weight of 109 plus weight of trailer plus descending Bellbird Hill down from Kurrajong Heights" and I thought perhaps not.:(


ALSO did you change the dizzy cap, rotor button , test vacume advance ???
I wasn't able to do this as I have no spares and I'm not sure what dizzy is on it - it's different to the one on my station wagon.

[mike 90 RR]

How many k's is Bilpin to home????

Also fuel starvation is usually .... it runs / idles then when you go to drive .... it starts to DDDdddiiiiiieee ... then picks up
and repeats the cycle of pick up to die untill you are driving at a idle speed, then it settles down (idle) ... is this the case???
if so .. this would explain the backfiring .... as you are pulling the choke on, while driving & the fuel finally refills the carby .. it is flooding the motor
Hence/ sudden mix of too much fuel ... Spark .... Backfire

[DiscoDave]

How many k's is Bilpin to home????

Also fuel starvation is usually .... it runs / idles then when you go to drive .... it starts to DDDdddiiiiiieee ... then picks up
and repeats the cycle of pick up to die untill you are driving at a idle speed, then it settles down (idle) ... is this the case???
if so .. this would explain the backfiring .... as you are pulling the choke on, while driving & the fuel finally refills the carby .. it is flooding the motor
Hence/ sudden mix of too much fuel ... Spark .... Backfire

Bilpin is only about 45kms away but there is a serious hill in the middle of that. It's also a busy single lane road with no shoulder on the hills - not somewhere I want to get stuck.
Your description of fuel starvation doesn't really fit what I'm getting. At present she seems to run, idling or revving, but only for a while before dieing. If revving she runs for less time than if idling. After the engine stalls switch off/on, wait for fuel pump to stop ticking (sometimes 30 seconds or more) and she'll start again, first turn, and repeat the process.

[mike 90 RR]

I mulled it over and would say that you answered it yourself :) ...... "it takes 30 seconds for the pump to stop ticking" .... ;)

I would grab a multi meter first and find out what voltage the fuel pump is getting // on positive side ... then negitive side // (check for lousy connections / especially earth) ..... as it always good to see the problem first / helps in fixing it

Then undo the fuel line and freeflow the pump and get it to fill a 2 litre bottle
This is to see how it flows + see if the fuel is dirty or has water

All that rough riding could have stirred up sediment and blocked the "filter inside the pump" (guessing that it has a "bag" filter as I know my ford fairlane does)

Other blockage culprits are inline filters / filter in carby (dont think it has one) / rusted or blocked steel fuel pipes (use compressed air)

I have cleaned blocked inline filters by reverse flushing // Basically hooked a water hose to the "outlet side" and turn on tap .. not recommended, but will do the job

Lastly .... See the comments from clean32 below ...Spot on method
Mike

[clean32]

Old school motor old school thinking

i doint know the 6 do thay have a zenith or an SU ??

any way the Key here is the choke, more choke = more fule, no fule + choke = some fule, simple you have a fule problem so forget about every thing else

1 cranking the motor over spary some of the carby cleaner stuff in, if she fires ( when she didnt before) is fule

2 zenith take the bowl off jets in the botton and on the plate that faces the carb body, check the float valve first, thats the one on the top plate still attched to the main body.


3 as you said she starts runs for a bit then stops, ok do that but when it stops, kill the switch pull the bowl off to see if its full of fule, NOT some fule but full. put it back on the turn the switch pump up the fule take it off again see if its at a difrent level, if it wasint full to start with or it was fuller after, have a look at the fule pump, slow flow or low presure.

[DiscoDave]

Thanks Mike and Clean32 great suggestions for diagnosis. :)
The 6 cylinders have a Zenith Stromberg carbi with the big 'air valve'.

I've fixed my Disco's brake boost problem (I hope...) and I've got a trailer booked for tomorrow morning so I'll be bringing the 109 home to work on it then.

[DiscoDave]

I got the 109 home on a U-haul trailer - nearly had a fit when I found they didn't supply any straps but fortunately I had several light-duty straps with me. With those plus some chain I had at the rear and the trailer winch at the front I thought it would be okay if I took it easy. That's the first time I've towed a heavy load and I can't say the sensation was pleasant, but I made it back okay.
Yesterday I tested the fuel pump and got 2 litres of fuel in 50seconds direct off the fuel pump and also after the fuel filter. I removed the carbi and dismantled the fuel bowl and gave everything I could reach a good spray with carbi-cleaner. Put everything back on the vehicle this morning and... no change. :(
Checked out the wiring to the coil and the fuel pump, replaced some dodgy connectors to no effect. Hot wired the coil (and therefore the fuel pump) direct from the battery. It still died after a short while. But something had changed - it wouldn't restart! I tried several times. Only when I disconnected power to the coil and pump and reconnected it would the motor start. Next time it died I pulled the fuel line off the carbi (power still going to the fuel pump) and nothing, no fuel!
So it seems the fuel pump works fine until it pressurises, switches off and then doesn't switch on again.
So the question now is how do I fix it? (I'm still working on it just taking a break while I post this).
@Landy Andy - your left nut is in some peril at the moment! ;) However the light oil I put in the dashpot a few days ago has mostly gone. I've replaced it with some engine oil but I'm wondering if that's a sign of something else not right?

[mike 90 RR]

Hi Dave
Glad to here you towed home safely ...

I'm a little in the guessing game now, but further to finding the problem // Clean32 method proved correct .. we now know that it is a fuel problem

Read up on fuel pumps in my "Haynes manual" ... (Ref: Range Rover 1970 to 92)
It does not tell you the "pressure of pump" numbers .... (what a mongrel of a book // Tells you the basics and leaves you hanging)

There seems to be 2 types of fuel pumps
1: Pump in fuel tank // Can be removed and taken apart to clean filter and has magnet inside it to pick up metal
2: Inline pump // Make sure all lines (rubber) ... between gas tank & pump ... are in good condition & not cracked ... allowing air to be sucked in causing air locks

It does say pump location: beneath the rear seat under car ... or ... on chassie on L/H side @ rear wheel
I know it's a different car , but Landrover would have the same mentality

You said it took the pump "50 seconds to fill 2 litres of fuel" I don't know if that is good or bad / Can anyone else advise ?? (To me it sounds slow)
Do it to another car, if you can, to compare

To "Pin the fuel pump as the problem" ...
1: Blow down the fuel line with compressed air / (Not too much pressure)
Try starting motor
2: Do the gravity feed to the motor trick, i spoke of // Be careful (Remember to disconnect the electric fuel pump)
Try starting motor If it works then .....
3: or just install another pump if you have one handy
Try starting motor


If not that side of things then .......
If the oil is disappearing from the carby's then that is a sign of the rubber bladder / Diaphram is broken or the seals are shot ..... or the piston in the dashpot is bad & oil is falling on the diaphram ...

Time for a "carby kit"
Clean with petrol & compressed air .... BE FUSSY

Hopefully, someone else can jump in and fill in the gaps on Carby repairs & their "habits"

[DiscoDave]

Thanks for your advice Mike. :)
I know the fuel pump is faulty - I've taken the drivers seat out to access it (it's mounted on the chassis next to the underseat fuel tank on a 109 GS) and I can hear it stop ticking shortly after starting the engine (as it should) and I can hear it NOT start ticking when the engine begins to falter. A whack with a spanner gets it ticking again and the engine picks up and continues running (repeat until you get bored with the process).
Picked up a second hand fuel pump this afternoon and I'll fit it tomorrow and report back. ;)

[mike 90 RR]

...... A whack with a spanner gets it ticking again and the engine picks up and continues running (repeat until you get bored with the process).....

Luv it ... (german accent) ve av vays ov making you vork .... :Rolling:

[chazza]

I'm not sure if your pump is an SU, but if it is, it sounds like dirty points inside the pump, which can be cleaned and adjusted,

Cheers Charlie

[DiscoDave]

Charlie - Series 111 (and, it turns out, Range Rover Classic and maybe others) use the same Facet sealed unit. There are some mechanical bits that can be accessed (not recommended other than the filter) but so far as I can tell you'd need an angle grinder to get at the electrical side of it.

I fitted the second-hand fuel pump late yesterday and the main problem is fixed. :) She will idle for as long as you like and seems to have improved performance although that may just have been me being unused to vehicles which actually make it to the end of the road and back... :p

Thanks to everyone who helped on this matter, I'll post the other 259 problems in their own threads... :D

[JohnE]

good one mate, so it was the fuel pump after all,

can;t wait to read the next 259 probs.


john

[DiscoDave]

good one mate, so it was the fuel pump after all,
can;t wait to read the next 259 probs.
john
Thanks John. :D