Help I am trying to trace a Series 3A landy

[Selsi]

In mid 1999 I sold a very unique Series 3A Landy. It was the first one ever fully built / assembled in Australia. The chassis was fully built in Australia by Pressed Metal Corp in Enfield, NSW. In fact we used to have both the short wheelbase and the long wheelbase first build vehicles on the family farm for many years. I am trying to trace the longwheel base one that was sold to a person in Rosebud, Victoria by myself. He was planning to restore it. It was light blue with cream roof and was a 2 litre petrol engine. The reason for this is that we would like to purchase the landy back as it has so much value to our family. If anyone can help me could they please contact me, John Isles, on jisles@ozemail.com.au

Many thanks for your help.................

[3 Lions]

Hello, do you have the reg number, the owner may be a member of LROCV?

[Selsi]

It was deregistered at time of sale and travelled to Rosebud with a permit and no plates, as an 'Historical Vehicle'. I am trying to trace some paperwork that may give Chassis number and serial / engine number through old family records.

[B92 8NW]

What's a 3A? A 3A with a 2 litre petrol engine... do you have a year of manufacture?

[agrojnr]

There is one on ebay for sale now
Land Rover Series 3A - eBay, Passenger Vehicles, Cars, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 04-Jun-08 16:06:58 AEST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Land-Rover-Series-3A_W0QQitemZ270240388035QQihZ017QQcategoryZ35227QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)



Adam

[JDNSW]

There is one on ebay for sale now
Land Rover Series 3A - eBay, Passenger Vehicles, Cars, Cars, Bikes, Boats. (end time 04-Jun-08 16:06:58 AEST) (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Land-Rover-Series-3A_W0QQitemZ270240388035QQihZ017QQcategoryZ35227QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)



Adam

Actually a Series 2a - I presume it is a typo.

John

[101RRS]

Actually a Series 2a - I presume it is a typo.

John

Surely a early series 2 rather than a 2A with a 2 litre engine. Or are we in fact talking a series 1? Certainly my 57 series 1 was made by the PMC. So if the subject vehicle was made there maybe it is a series 1.

Selsi - can you clarify what vehicle we are actually talking about.

Garry

[JDNSW]

Surely a early series 2 rather than a 2A with a 2 litre engine. Or are we in fact talking a series 1? Certainly my 57 series 1 was made by the PMC. So if the subject vehicle was made there maybe it is a series 1.

Selsi - can you clarify what vehicle we are actually talking about.

Garry

I was referring to the one in the ebay advertisement, clearly a much modified 2a from the photo.

I suspect the one referred to originally may also be a 2a, although the reference to a 2 litre engine suggests, as you do, a very early Series 2; but he is looking for a lwb, and I thought that engine was only in the swb, unless it was the diesel, the 2l version of which was in short and long Series 1 & 2, the change to 2.25 defining the 2a.

Build by Pressed Metal Corporation does not suggest that it was a Series 1 - the Series 1, Series 2, Series 2a that I have previously owned, plus the 1970 2a I have at present, were all built by PMC, so he may be referring to the first of a particular model built by them - but as there was no such model as a 3a, then it was most likely the first 2, 2a or 3 built by them. More information needed, such as a model date, or even better a chassis or engine number.

John

[101RRS]

Hi John - yep agree - up to Selsi to clarify - clearly we all are interested in this - my curosity is aroused.

Garry

[Selsi]

This was the first Series III built in Australia and with its 'brother' a short wheel base were actually a series III body and chassis but with series II mechanicals. Both of them were built to test the chassis jigs at PMC, Enfield, prior to commencing Australian production of the series III. They were classified as Series IIIA to distinguish them from the latter series III. My father in law was the MD of PMC at ther time and purchased both vehicles after their testing was complete, and took them to his property at Tarana, NSW where they were used for many years. The Short wheel base one was sold but I kept the long wheel base one for many year. My son drove it up until he went overseas to live in 1999. He now would like to buy it back and have it on his property in Oberon, NSW. I, hopefully, have managed to attach a photo of the onde that I am trying to trace. It also is unique in that it is or was a very unusuallt light blue colour that was never used in Australian production. It was called Cambridge Blue and was really a 'baby' blue!!!

[Sleepy]

Fascinating story for what is (was?) a unique vehicle. If you could determine the serial number that may help. (perhaps NSW authorities would may have the details cross referenced with the rego.) I suspect the "3A" designation was more a colloquial term rather than on official designation. Good luck on your search. I'm sure you'll get plenty of interest here.

[101RRS]

It would not have had the 2 litre engine though - that was droppped at least 11 years earlier in the first series 2s.

Garry

[Selsi]

Many thanks for the suggestions and help....

WE FOUND IT!!!!!!!!

BUT

Now we need a good mechanic as it is in bits. Does anyone know of a good LR person who can put the engine / gearbox back together and give it a good check over? They should, preferably, be in the Lithgow / Oberon / Bathurst area but can go to the Mountains.

Many thanks

[Slunnie]

Well done, how did you find it!

[Bigbjorn]

Cambridge Blue was the NSW police car colour for many years. Is it still?

[Cliffy]

I owned a SWB SIII that was a 72' MY.
Had the S3 dash but no heater (never fitted) and also had the IIA box.
Motor was a bag of snot so I sold it.
Would it have been one of these "transition" models? IIIA/B:p

[Slunnie]

I owned a SWB SIII that was a 72' MY.
Had the S3 dash but no heater (never fitted) and also had the IIA box.
Motor was a bag of snot so I sold it.
Would it have been one of these "transition" models? IIIA/B:p

Cliffy, was that a non-synchro box on first and second gear?

[digger]

Many thanks for the suggestions and help....

WE FOUND IT!!!!!!!!

BUT

Now we need a good mechanic as it is in bits. Does anyone know of a good LR person who can put the engine / gearbox back together and give it a good check over? They should, preferably, be in the Lithgow / Oberon / Bathurst area but can go to the Mountains.

Many thanks

Now we need a story written detailing the history of your relatives involvement with PMC, and dates, the story of the test vehicles (incl any photos and serial numbers etc) and details of them (eg: how they are now etc, the sale and recovery of this one also...)
this is land rover history that unless you had been looking for them we wouldnt have, so good to have it recorded..

cheers
and how did you find it?

[UncleHo]

G'day Selsi :)

Seeing that they were prototypes, would they have had an ADR plate? or were they the vehicles to get type approved? also what is/was the Chassis number/numbers?


cheers

[Selsi]

It was a 1973 LWB,2.25L manual, Serial Number 97300001A, Engine number 13 00333A.
[The short wheel base one had the serial number 97300001B, (If I remember correctly; can't find what the engine number was though). Its NSW rego was GKF???]

David McKendry, the LROCV Membership Officer, helped to track down the person we sold it to. Many thanks..

I will try and post photos when we get hold of it.

Need the good mechanic to put it together though

[digger]

It was a 1973 LWB,2.25L manual, Serial Number 97300001A, Engine number 13 00333A.
[The short wheel base one had the serial number 97300001B, (If I remember correctly; can't find what the engine number was though). Its NSW rego was GKF???]

David McKendry, the LROCV Membership Officer, helped to track down the person we sold it to. Many thanks..

I will try and post photos when we get hold of it.

Need the good mechanic to put it together though

thanks,

the colour appears to be the correct colour reffered to as Cambridge blue..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Blue_(Colour)


You should write a short article though its history worth knowing..

ta

[The ho har's]

Pics of it now would be terrifiic:)

The restoration begins:)

[101RRS]

It was a 1973 LWB,2.25L manual, Serial Number 97300001A, Engine number 13 00333A.
[The short wheel base one had the serial number 97300001B, (If I remember correctly; can't find what the engine number was though). Its NSW rego was GKF???]

David McKendry, the LROCV Membership Officer, helped to track down the person we sold it to. Many thanks..

I will try and post photos when we get hold of it.

Need the good mechanic to put it together though

Can you reiterate what is so special about these vehicles because I am still a bit confused. You indicated that these are 1973 series 3 prototype vehicles but I owned a PMC built series 3 88 that was built before September 1972 - so well before these prototype vehicles were built. I know where my old series 3 still resides and attached is a pic of its compliance plate and vehicle taken about 12 months ago.

Garry

[Selsi]

Garry

Prior to these two LR's being built, all landrovers built at PMC were from ALL components manufactured in England.
These 2 vehicles had their chassis built here, fron Australian steel, rather than having them imported from England.
They were built to test the chassis jigs and then driven around NSW and ? to test the chassis ( and cabin fit) out. On return to PMC they were then stripped down and re-measured to make sure that they still met the specs. They were then rebuilt and were purchased by my father in law ( JO Martin - MD Pressed Metal) for his property at Tarana, NSW). We drove them for any years there. Unfortunately he contracted lung cancer as a result of too many cigarettes, as a Captain in WW2 in New Guinea and free cigs!!!

On his death I was bequethed the vehicle which my son drove for about 2 years before working OS. It was then sold and now has been refound!!!!

You mave have a series III built prior, but it would have a chassis that was imported from Engalnd rather than made here in Australia.

As I had the privilege of talking to my father in law about LR's I know all that he did to promote and support them.
I know that he took on Toyota when they advertised in the press that their Land Cruisers built the Snowies !!!!! BULL****!!!!!(Sorry about that, moderator).
He pointed ouit that the SMA had many hundreds of LR's but only a handfull of LC's (and only) in the later years!!!!!

But he really believed in the fact that the Land Rover was a better vehicle.

And it was an IS!!!

Also he was the father of the much alingned P76. He had a Targa Florio which was a flag ship vehicle. I had one also. But my claim to fame was that I drove for some time a FORCE 7 version which not too many people can claim to have done. There were so many inovations that were introduced with it like gas struts, hatch back, and, and.

I hope this helps.

I get passionate about therse things.............Come on Aussie.,.;.;;.;;

[101RRS]

Thanks for that - certainly fills in the blanks.

Garry

[UncleHo]

Was the Force 7 that you drove on tradies or was it registered? what colour?

[JDNSW]

Garry

Prior to these two LR's being built, all landrovers built at PMC were from ALL components manufactured in England.
.......

I don't believe this can be correct. From quite early Series 1 production, PMC was assembling CKD Landrovers. But early on parts that could be made locally were. This included electrical equipment and tyres. But at least by Series 2a some panels were being produced by PMC, and the 2a military chassis was apparently developed by PMC and only later produced for the One Ton in the UK.

However, the Series 3 introduced pressed chassis rails on the lwb, and this may have been the innovation referred to. Or it may have simply been that these represented the change of chassis/panels from the 2a, with full CKD kits being used to produce Series 3s until tooling was completed (and tested with these two vehicles).

John

[Beckford]

Now we need a good mechanic as it is in bits. Does anyone know of a good LR person who can put the engine / gearbox back together and give it a good check over? They should, preferably, be in the Lithgow / Oberon / Bathurst area but can go to the Mountains.

Many thanks

Where in the Blue Mountains?

[101RRS]

It is a shame the LWB and SWB could not be reunited and kept together.

[Selsi]

Uncle Ho
The Force 7's that I drove were bright orange and a sickening Lime green.
They were both registered for the road. The lime green one was a bit different in that it had a 5 speed ZF manual gearbox and most of the trips driven were at night between the farm at Tarana (NSW) and the home garage in Gordon (Sydney suburb). Perhaps just as well as it was a horrible colour!! The orange one was an automatic; from memory it was a modified Borg Warner type 35 that was used in the Rover 3500. Both cars were the 4.2 litre V8 and were fitted with LSD's. The orange one we drove in the daytime a few times around Sydney, albeit early weekend mornings.

Some of the other unique cars driven....
A "Twini Mini"with an engine in the front and they back. Went like the smoke!!!! Would have made a fantastic hill climb car.
Then there was a 4 wheel drive Moke called either"a "Mule"or an "Ant" depending on the version. I think they were being developed for the military, especially for air transport. Great fun to drive especially in mud. If it got bogged a couple of strong people could wheel it out like a wheel barrow. It never went into production though. Pity.
There was a special Landrover, based on the short wheel base, that was developed as a mobile radio base station for the Army. It had 24v electrics and looked more like a Jeep that a conventional LR. (Open front mud guards, I remember). I know that several were built but I have never seen one apart from the original one that did the testing up at the Tarana farm.
Unfortunately we never took photos of these vehicles and even if there were some they would have been photgraphs and not digital so have got lost over time.
I had an Austin 1800 with a fully tuned MGB engine that would scare the hell out of Torana XU1's. Not so much in top speed, but on the corners it was like driving on rails...
Then there were the rally Cooper S's of Timo Makinen and Paddy Hopkirk; absolutely incredible.

John

Somewhere I had a photo of this Land rover sitting in front of the chassis that were imported from England at the time. Some even had engines and gearboxes fitted. Others were bare frames. All of the panels were pressed at Enfield from Alcan aluminium. I can remember seeing the chassis being assembled, so I can assure you that it was the first fully made here. That's why this vehicle and its short wheel base 'sister' were so special to my father in law and were kept by him. Certain body parts were imported as they were especially made for LR's like door hingesand plastic mouldings. Of course all of the mechanicals were.

[Selsi]

OOOPS...

Before someone jumps on me...The P76 / Force 7 V8's were 4.4 litre.
My typo.

[Selsi]

Where in the Blue Mountains?

We are based at Oberon, so could take it I guess even to Penrith
Not sure yet of what state it's in but do know that the engine is in bits.
Thanks

[wagoo]

I don't believe this can be correct. From quite early Series 1 production, PMC was assembling CKD Landrovers. But early on parts that could be made locally were. This included electrical equipment and tyres. But at least by Series 2a some panels were being produced by PMC, and the 2a military chassis was apparently developed by PMC and only later produced for the One Ton in the UK.

However, the Series 3 introduced pressed chassis rails on the lwb, and this may have been the innovation referred to. Or it may have simply been that these represented the change of chassis/panels from the 2a, with full CKD kits being used to produce Series 3s until tooling was completed (and tested with these two vehicles).

John

I would personally doubt that the series 2a LWB military chassis was developed at PMC and later used on UK 1 tonners. British Army 3/4 ton 2a lwb's apparently also had the deeper spring hangers too, so that the optional 9.00x16'' tyres could be fitted without modifying the guards and rear wheel boxes. AFAIK The OZ military never used 9,00's on any LandRover variants except for 101FC's.
The Aus Military swb 2a chassis was unique however, as it's British counterpart didn't have the deeper spring hangers and longer shackles.
I would also question that the ''Pressed'' series 3 LWB chassis would have been worth developing here. Press tooling in those pre CNC machinary days would have been very expensive to produce for the low sales volume of LandRovers in OZ back then. .According to I think it was Jeff Slavins book '' LandRover the Unbeatable 4X4'', chassis assembly to export markets was mainly restricted to assembly of or final welding of outriggers and crossmembers.
Having said all that, When I was working for a Military surplus Landrover dealer back in the day, I did come across a few mysterious 'one off' prototype? components that would have required some investment in special tooling, patterns etc, so anything's possible.
Bill.

[Beckford]

We are based at Oberon, so could take it I guess even to Penrith
Not sure yet of what state it's in but do know that the engine is in bits.
Thanks

PM Sent.

[fc110]

I don't believe this can be correct. From quite early Series 1 production, PMC was assembling CKD Landrovers. But early on parts that could be made locally were. This included electrical equipment and tyres. But at least by Series 2a some panels were being produced by PMC,
John
I agree. I have a 1964 Rover Australia price list with Au parts marked as such & even then large no.s of parts were made in Au. I think in their ads at one stage (I may be wrong) "65% Au content"

I think the Series 3 bulkhead is unique to some Au assembled, after the initial batch of imported. One difference is the mirror bracket.

There were considerable tax/import duty issues that did make it economical to spend money on tooling. Even if imported bits were used, later parts were made in Au. A good example is 80 guard outers in steel.

[JDNSW]

I agree. I have a 1964 Rover Australia price list with Au parts marked as such & even then large no.s of parts were made in Au. I think in their ads at one stage (I may be wrong) "65% Au content"

I think the Series 3 bulkhead is unique to some Au assembled, after the initial batch of imported. One difference is the mirror bracket.

There were considerable tax/import duty issues that did make it economical to spend money on tooling. Even if imported bits were used, later parts were made in Au. A good example is 80 guard outers in steel.

Content figures quoted can be misleading, as the percentages refer to the value of the vehicle, not the number of bits - and assembly costs, largely labour, probably represent close to 50%. Without building engines, gearboxes, and axles locally (and as far as I know these were never done here for Landrovers) it would be hard to get above something like 65%. Apart from assembly this probably included tyres, glass, rubber, some electrical, paint, perhaps standard fasteners (maybe not, as these were not a big part of cost). As you say, there were strong tax incentives to increase local content, and tooling up for and pressing panels would be the easy way to do this. Remember that the Series Landrover was specifically designed from the start to need minimum tooling for body panels, which means that producing these locally would also have required minimum tooling.

John

[Selsi]

To all those people who helped to trace the lost Series III, thanks....

It has been transported to Melbourne and is currently being rebuilt and restored.

Hopefully it will be driven under it's own power to it's new home near Oberon, NSW where it will be reregistered as an historicic vehicle.

A picture is attached of it starting it's journey to Melbourne.

[Cobber]

To all those people who helped to trace the lost Series III, thanks....

It has been transported to Melbourne and is currently being rebuilt and restored.

Hopefully it will be driven under it's own power to it's new home near Oberon, NSW where it will be reregistered as an historicic vehicle.

A picture is attached of it starting it's journey to Melbourne.I'm glad it's all worked out ok :cool:

[Cobber]

there were strong tax incentives to increase local contentpity this doesn't happen now :(

[UncleHo]

If my memory is correct the 3 prototype Australian Army raised chassis were built at PMC overseen by the boffins from ADE and then shipped to UK they went with a consignment of Rover/LR warranty claims, they were copied from the Cuthbertson chassis which the army trialed in 62, I had the Cuthbertson chassis here up until a couple of years ago when it was scrapped owing to terminal rust (used by beach fisherman with a red Holden motor fitted) it finished it's military career on the skid-pan at Enoggera Barracks in the 90's

The Aust.Army had opted for the use of 7.50 x16 tyres on all of it's Landrover vehicles as it already held large stocks of 7.50 bar treads which was the standard tyre used on the Austin Champ,also Dunlop (who had the tyre contract for D/\D) did not have 9.00 x1 6 moulds at that time.

[JDNSW]

pity this doesn't happen now :(

I doubt most Australians would agree with you - if this had remained the same until today, the choice of cars would be far less than it is today, and the cost of all cars would be between 50 and 100% higher than at present. The way it worked was that there was a heavy import duty on imported cars and parts, but the duty reduced to low levels on parts if they were for a car with high levels of local content - and the screws got tighter each year.

John