TD5 Power upgrades

[bruiser69]

Hey fellow TD5 owners,

My 2000 model TD5 could do with a bit more grunt when towing. It would also be nice to overtake safely:p
With 2litre common rail passenger vehicles putting out similar Kw & torque figures to 2.5L TD5, I figure that there is a lot more to be wrung out of this engine without stressing it.

I have checked out some of the power chips & inline modules available here & in UK. Each promises improved KW & torque, at widely varying prices.

I would appreciate feedback from anyone who has modified their TD5, so I can make a more informed decision as to which chip/module to go with. Any figures re before & after fuel economy would be welcomed also.

Cheers..Bruiser:)

[stevo68]

Ditto the above,

Regards

Stevo

[Slunnie]

Not as many do the power upgrade for the earlier D2's as they are not flash upgradable.

My choice has been the Davis Performance Landys ECU upgrade (and a bigger intercooler)

Fuel economy is unchanged (meaning poor for my lardy landy)

Power should be around 160-170kw depending on the upgrade it's running (with larger intercooler) and 510Nm

Without the intercooler it'll be somewhere around 130-140kw and I'm not sure re the Nm, I think it something around 400-450Nm or similar.

[scarry]

i checked out a lot of upgrades& came to the conclusion the ecu upgrade was the best option.there are so many different options it is a bit confusing

many of the other types are installed by people who havent done many td5's:(

i still havent had it done....for a few reasons....i dont do any towing,dont get me wrong a bit more go would be nice:)

also my concerns it may cause problems...cracking exhaust minifolds....head trouble etc

the guys who do the upgrade have assured me all will be ok ...so i am probably worrieing about nothing

just my 2 cents worth

cheers

[Slunnie]

i checked out a lot of upgrades& came to the conclusion the ecu upgrade was the best option.there are so many different options it is a bit confusing

many of the other types are installed by people who havent done many td5's:(

i still havent had it done....for a few reasons....i dont do any towing,dont get me wrong a bit more go would be nice:)

also my concerns it may cause problems...cracking exhaust minifolds....head trouble etc

the guys who do the upgrade have assured me all will be ok ...so i am probably worrieing about nothing

just my 2 cents worth

cheers
I think that the ECU upgrades do stress the exhaust manifolds and probably the heads too. I know that when I do a manifold that I've been working it hard.

[porgey]

Regards Slunnie. Did you do the EGR thing too or is it still intact ? Cheers porgey

[Slunnie]

I've got an EGR blanking kit, but its not installed yet. The EGR is all still in there.

[scarry]

slunnie
that egr blanking kit.....are you going to fit it because the existing valve is not working correctly or is it to get better performance or some other reason....mine seems to have a cooler on the egrpipe...would this be to keep the egt's down ?

also the fuel cooler on mine is a small block like a small alfa-levell heat exchanger...do you know when or why they changed from the cylinder type on the earlier models

regards

[Discopug]

I have a td5 with the " Davis Performance ECU upgrade "and its very good.
I would agree with Slunnie that the power is probably about 134kw and around 400nm torque.
Much more drivable around town ( being manual ) a lot better for over taking on the open road.
The extra bit of go that it has makes all the difference.
No more fuel used, but the exaust manifold was warped and has had bigger studs put in to allevieate this. Head gasket ? They will go any way so the sooner its fixed properly the better.

[Slunnie]

slunnie
that egr blanking kit.....are you going to fit it because the existing valve is not working correctly or is it to get better performance or some other reason....mine seems to have a cooler on the egrpipe...would this be to keep the egt's down ?

also the fuel cooler on mine is a small block like a small alfa-levell heat exchanger...do you know when or why they changed from the cylinder type on the earlier models

regards
Yeah, I think the cooler is just to get some of the temperature out of the exhaust gasses before they're reintroduced into the inlet as far as I know, especially when the EGT's are up. I would guess that its not so much that the cooler brings the EGT's down, but the exhaust gasses being dead gasses that bring the EGT's down. The EGR only seems to work on light throttle and low/mid engine revs, so when you're giving it a bootful which is when the EGT's are high, the EGR is probably not doing much anyway.

Hmmm, I hope that all made sense.

I'm not sure why they changed it all. I think it was one of the many changes when the EU3 spec TD5 was released, probably in a further effort to reduce the emissions from the motor. The latter version is more complex than the earlier ones.

Why? From my perspective it is purely to keep exhaust gasses from the inlet tract where it will slowly clog things up. I've unplugged the EGR on mine before and it definately improves it with light throttle and at low-mid engine speeds. For the early TD5's I dont think there will be much of a gain in the outright power, though there may be something with the later ones because the EGR is more restrictive in the inlet tract.

[bruiser69]

Not as many do the power upgrade for the earlier D2's as they are not flash upgradable.

My choice has been the Davis Performance Landys ECU upgrade (and a bigger intercooler)

Fuel economy is unchanged (meaning poor for my lardy landy)

Power should be around 160-170kw depending on the upgrade it's running (with larger intercooler) and 510Nm

Without the intercooler it'll be somewhere around 130-140kw and I'm not sure re the Nm, I think it something around 400-450Nm or similar.

Hi Slunnie,

Is Davis ECU upgrade a replacement chip in original ECU, or module plugged in downline from original ECU?
I tend to favour the downline version in case something goes wrong, especially out west. You can just unplug it & back to original & off you go. Might even be some grief if taken to Stealers with Powerbook, they might not be able to reset faults (or cause them!)

Cheers..Bruiser

[Slunnie]

Hi Slunnie,

Is Davis ECU upgrade a replacement chip in original ECU, or module plugged in downline from original ECU?
I tend to favour the downline version in case something goes wrong, especially out west. You can just unplug it & back to original & off you go. Might even be some grief if taken to Stealers with Powerbook, they might not be able to reset faults (or cause them!)

Cheers..Bruiser
G'day Bruiser,

The ECU upgrades for the early TD5 are a change over ECU and its a hard wire job on the PCB or whatever it is in there. It doesn't cause any errors to be logged or anything like that, its just the main doohicky replaced with a programmable one and off we go again with a different fuelling/timing map. I also notice that different specs react differently with the cruise control, some very good, some not so good. The powered up one is good on the CC.

I guess really there is no additional chance of a failure in the electronics by using a remapped ECU over standard. If you do run a piggyback system then you are introducing something that may potentially give problems, and if the problem is corrected by unplugging the piggyback computer, then thats where the problem lays. The dealers don't have issues with the upgrade ECU's, although if they know about it some of them will no doubt try to use it as an excuse to deny warranty.

I guess the thing that worries me more so with the piggybacked computer, is that it sends the ECU false messages to get ther performance increase, where the remapped ECU does it properly with upgraded mapping rather than running the engine into an extreme part of the factory map.

[bruiser69]

Yeah, I think the cooler is just to get some of the temperature out of the exhaust gasses before they're reintroduced into the inlet as far as I know, especially when the EGT's are up. I would guess that its not so much that the cooler brings the EGT's down, but the exhaust gasses being dead gasses that bring the EGT's down. The EGR only seems to work on light throttle and low/mid engine revs, so when you're giving it a bootful which is when the EGT's are high, the EGR is probably not doing much anyway.

Hmmm, I hope that all made sense.

I'm not sure why they changed it all. I think it was one of the many changes when the EU3 spec TD5 was released, probably in a further effort to reduce the emissions from the motor. The latter version is more complex than the earlier ones.

y? From my perspective it is purely to keep exhaust gasses from the inlet tract where it will slowly clog things up. I've unplugged the EGR on mine before and it definately improves it with light throttle and at low-mid engine speeds. For the early TD5's I dont think there will be much of a gain in the outright power, though there may be something with the later ones because the EGR is more restrictive in the inlet tract.
Hi Slunnie,

Trying to get my head around all this.
I know with normal petrol motors (and i've serviced a few) that EGR is used to minimise emissions, but didn't know the same applied to diesel.
EGR is normally vacuum controlled, meaning that EGR valve only opens at negative pressure e.g. when throttle valve closed or partially closed.
EGR valve should not affect performance of engine when throttle opened.
I can't see benefit of blocking off EGR valve to boost performance. The possibility of carbon deposits preventing closure in diesel engines is possibly one reason, but regular maintenance should avoid this.

The issue of exhaust manifold & head warping has me a bit scared. Does this always occur after chipping /Intercooler upgrade of TD5?
I tow a 2000KG power boat, & regularly go offroad , mainly on Stradbroke Island. The sand on Straddie is often very soft & TD5 has to struggle to recover the often stuck LandBruisers, Pootrolls, & Mitsujerkoffs commonly found stuck on Straddie. You should see the Rav4s & other pretend 4WDs that try it:D LOL
I am also looking at buying an offroad camper trailer, so towing in these conditions will definitely require more power.

Cheers..Bruiser

[andymach23]

When I got my TD5 at the end of January it felt a bit sluggish. I blanked the EGR with a plate of ebay. That improved it some. I then cleaned the MAP sensor on the inlet manifold and that transormed the car. Year 2000, 120K miles.

Just last week I checked the wastegate and found it was sticking a bit. The car is going even better from 1.5k to 3K. I don't rev it higher than that usually.

I will clean out the intercooler at some point as that is on the service schedule and I've read that ups power a bit if it's oiled up.

I'm delighted with the car now and don't really think I need a remap at the minute.

I suppose my point is that it would be good to know that the engine is running properly before looking at a remap.

Cheers

Andy

[2 rocks]

Slunnie
I have enquired about blanking off the EGR before but was advised against it but was not really told why. When I was running my Paj's (both 2.5 4D56 turbos) I was going to experiment on one of them as it seemed to be a popular mod on the UK Paj forum, but never got around to it. Did see some pretty icky photos of gunked up EGRs though.

To date I've never seen anything on my service papers that say anything about having cleaned/tested the EGR!!

BTW - Mine is a June '01 build date. I have a stainless steel intercooler fitted (no idea if it's bigger or not) and apparently a 140kw "chip"...when did the ECU's change? That is, would mine be re-mapped or chipped?
Cheers
Mike

[Slunnie]

Hi Slunnie,

Trying to get my head around all this.
I know with normal petrol motors (and i've serviced a few) that EGR is used to minimise emissions, but didn't know the same applied to diesel.
EGR is normally vacuum controlled, meaning that EGR valve only opens at negative pressure e.g. when throttle valve closed or partially closed.
EGR valve should not affect performance of engine when throttle opened.
I can't see benefit of blocking off EGR valve to boost performance. The possibility of carbon deposits preventing closure in diesel engines is possibly one reason, but regular maintenance should avoid this.

The issue of exhaust manifold & head warping has me a bit scared. Does this always occur after chipping /Intercooler upgrade of TD5?
I tow a 2000KG power boat, & regularly go offroad , mainly on Stradbroke Island. The sand on Straddie is often very soft & TD5 has to struggle to recover the often stuck LandBruisers, Pootrolls, & Mitsujerkoffs commonly found stuck on Straddie. You should see the Rav4s & other pretend 4WDs that try it:D LOL
I am also looking at buying an offroad camper trailer, so towing in these conditions will definitely require more power.

Cheers..Bruiser
G'day Bruiser,
Yeah, I agree the EGR or its disabling doesn't boost outright performance as on the TD5 it works on light throttle. The reason why it's removal may gain something in terms of outright performance is because the removal (as opposed to disabling) of the EGR system takes away a blockage in the inlet tract. The EGR doesn't operate using vacuum (ECU control) on the TD5 because it is a turbo motor and it doesn't have a butterfly or slide valve in the inlet tract (apart from the EU3 EGR system)

Regular maintenance may keep the inlet clean, but not many people will clean the insides of the inlet manifold, ports and valves. I'm pretty sure there has also been incidences of the EGR part sticking open.


Head warping seems to be related to engines that have had some type of problem that has allowed the temperature to run hot, whether localised or generally. A TD5 doesn't tolerate being overheated very well. It also doesn't tolerate the head being played with either due to the torque to yield head bolts - single use only item.

The manifold I think is due to high EGT's. I was always thinking that it was due to the higher EGT's that ECU upgrades produce, but there are a few stockers that do it also. There was a poll recently on this which was quite interesting. When you start driving on sand, towing, fitting bigger tyres etc then the EGT's do go up. I warped one driving around Cape York, loaded at 20psi on big Simex. I warped another on the highway (NT) doing a bit over 160km/h. Davis links this failure back to a broken MAF sensor wire which apparently causes the EGT's to come up a bit.

[Slunnie]

Slunnie
I have enquired about blanking off the EGR before but was advised against it but was not really told why. When I was running my Paj's (both 2.5 4D56 turbos) I was going to experiment on one of them as it seemed to be a popular mod on the UK Paj forum, but never got around to it. Did see some pretty icky photos of gunked up EGRs though.

To date I've never seen anything on my service papers that say anything about having cleaned/tested the EGR!!

BTW - Mine is a June '01 build date. I have a stainless steel intercooler fitted (no idea if it's bigger or not) and apparently a 140kw "chip"...when did the ECU's change? That is, would mine be re-mapped or chipped?
Cheers
Mike
G'day Mike,

Sounds like you've got more than 140kw then! :D The stainless intercooler is probably Aluminium and they're the same length and width, but the core is twice as thick than what came with the 01. I'm not sure when the ECU's changed though, that's probably a good question that someone on here will know. I think it was end 01 or 02 some time, but I'm really not sure.

I'd bet that nobody checks the EGR's, although the computer does log errors in it, so I assume that Land Rover expect any problems to be found if the EGR open/closed errors come up.

I really don't know why there would be advice against removing the EGR. Thats not to say that there isn't a good reason... like emission legalities, though I cant really see how it could be good for the engine.

[2 rocks]

Slunnie
I tend to agree - the idea being that exhaust particulates will circulate through again and be burnt up some more and therefore emissions reduced but seems like tipping a load of garbage into your motor really...wonderful!
Have pondered fitting an EGT & boost gauge, but, y'know, finding a pod to fit round the A-pillar tweeter could be an issue! Lol! A ricer-Disco, just need a BOV and a few G-Reddy stickers...
I'll see if I can dig up the papers on the chip and cooler...
Cheers
Mike

[Slunnie]

:lol2:

There are always the gauges that mount onto the bonnet and the little LED lights on the back (front???) of them. :D


BTW, I'm not sure how it works, but the ECU already senses boot somehow and has an overboost protection program in it.

[2 rocks]

[QUOTE=Slunnie;758635]:lol2:

There are always the gauges that mount onto the bonnet and the little LED lights on the back (front???) of them. :D
QUOTE]

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

I love it! Hey, maybe I could lower it too! :D
Mike

[bruiser69]

When I got my TD5 at the end of January it felt a bit sluggish. I blanked the EGR with a plate of ebay. That improved it some. I then cleaned the MAP sensor on the inlet manifold and that transormed the car. Year 2000, 120K miles.

Just last week I checked the wastegate and found it was sticking a bit. The car is going even better from 1.5k to 3K. I don't rev it higher than that usually.

I will clean out the intercooler at some point as that is on the service schedule and I've read that ups power a bit if it's oiled up.

I'm delighted with the car now and don't really think I need a remap at the minute.

I suppose my point is that it would be good to know that the engine is running properly before looking at a remap.

Cheers

Andy

Hi Andy,

Where exactly on inlet manifold is MAP sensor, and how do you clean it? Also how do you clean intercooler?
I suppose sensor & intercooler get gunked up from the EGR fumes, so blanking off this recirculated crap is probably a good idea. I have 160K on mine & motor is running sweetly. I've done two injector harnesses, ABS harness & shuttle valve in ABS modulator, but besides these no other issues.

Cheers..Bruiser

[feraldisco]

The Triumph Rover Spares ECU upgrade is a good (slighly more conservative/less peaky/more torquey) alternative to the Bruce Davis upgrade.

And having the EGR in place will gunk your motor up, no matter how good your maintenance is...

[mousie]

Well I also bought the ebay kit and as of tonight put the inlet manifold back on after a serious clean. I have 2000 with 156K and oil is what I expect prior to the then EGR but post EGR was a mess. Had a film of up to 5mil easy to rid so for is the effort worth it, well I didn't mind and also found most of the bolts loose anyway = possible airleaks etc. So personal choice. Few other threads report the same amount of crap inside which must contribute to heat as well, although not possibly really relevant, i guess

[andymach23]

Hi Andy,

Where exactly on inlet manifold is MAP sensor, and how do you clean it? Also how do you clean intercooler?
I suppose sensor & intercooler get gunked up from the EGR fumes, so blanking off this recirculated crap is probably a good idea. I have 160K on mine & motor is running sweetly. I've done two injector harnesses, ABS harness & shuttle valve in ABS modulator, but besides these no other issues.

Cheers..Bruiser

Hi Bruiser

The MAP sensor is easy to spot. Its right on the manifold facing the engine. You need to remove 2 8mm nuts, then ease the sensor out of it's holder. It is just a push fit. If the sensor end is clogged up with oil and gunge, sweet, as you'll see a big improvement likely. I just sprayed mine with electrical contact cleaner, then let it dry and refitted it after about 15 mins. I check mine every time I have the engine acoustic cover off.

The intercooler needs to come out and then it is flushed with solvent. RAVE explains how to take it out. It would take a good few hours. Mine is quite a bit down the list.

Checking the wastegate is an easy but worthwhile job also. I think it can stick if the motor gets an easy life and not revved too much.

I just took the 2 bolts off turbo heat shield at engine and left the 3rd one on at the Turbo as it was too hard to get off. I bent the shield up a bit to give a bit of room at the wastegate rod. The little clip comes off the waste gate lever, then the rod can be removed. I felt a bit of resistence on the wastegate so sprayed some penetrating oil on the pivot.

I think the wastegate lever is supposed to flap about freely when disconnected from the rod.

You can pull the waste gate rod out a bit with pliers to get it to line up with the lever to get it back on.

I tied a little thread to the wastegate clip as I knew I would drop it putting it back on. I dropped it a few times so this was a good idea


Cheers

Andy

[andymach23]

Bruiser

I ment to ask, is your 160K in kms or miles?

Cheers

Andy

[bruiser69]

Bruiser

I ment to ask, is your 160K in kms or miles?

Cheers

Andy

Hi Andy,

Vehicle has done 160K since I bought it new in 2000. Best vehicle I've ever bought. I'm trying to talk missus into TD6.

Cheers..bruiser

[Tombie]

So are you still looking to get some more go from your TD5?