Getting into 4x4 and camping etc

[Staminus]

Hi, I've been looking around for cheap 4x4's to start going out for camping weekends or just day trips around the bush with some friends or maybe a 4x4 group.

I really like the look of the Series 2/a land ROVER especially and I have found one for sale that was an old troop carrier. I have basically no off road experience apart from a few times driving through some dirt tracks etc.

Some general questions, It's 2.25ltr, is a petrol engine or a diesel engine the most reliable for these? Which would you recommend if I had a choice?

How reliable are these cars now? Are they really fragile or are they able to be used often?

How capable are they off road? Can they tow alright?

This is the one that caught my eye.

http://www.roflbox.net/albums/userpics/10001/thumb_3797932.jpg (http://www.roflbox.net/albums/userpics/10001/3797932.jpg)


My question is, should I just get a cheap suzuki or hilux or 4runner to get more reliability or are the older landcruisers still fairly solid?

OOPS

[WhiteD3]

Land Rover, not Land Cruiser. A small but potentially fatal error, around here anyway:eek:

[Staminus]

Oh, also how do these go in regards to fuel usage? :)

[100I]

Petrol? Bad. As bad as 5k/L. Robust simple vehicle overall but do have their weak points (of course, like any other). Lesuirely pace.

[UncleHo]

G'day Staminus :)

That looks like a very nice clean Ex-army restored 2a and with it's original 4 cylinder motor :D and there are members of the Ex Military Land Rover (REMLR) register on this forum that would be very happy to see it go to a good home :)

As you are Probably aware these vehicles are now Vintage Vehicles, and are collectors items, most are between 35-45 years old :) they are not fast and 90-95 is about max comfortable cruising speed, ( I own a restored 1968 2a exactly the same as that one) but, in their favour they are a simple easy to repair vehicle, with most parts readily available,the Series 2 (58-61) 2a(61-71) and Series3 (71-82) share a large quantity of common parts and these are mostly still available, they are not very economical fuel wise, with an average of 16-20 miles per gallon, (5/6klm- litre) these Series vehicles have a character and they tend to grow on you, as they are a simple but rugged vehicle.

What State are you in ? as there maybe somebody close to you that is knowledgeable in Series vehicles and be able to give you hints at where to look for rust and trouble/wear spots;)


That is a particularly nice looking vehicle, and it might be worth your while to have a look at the REMLR section on this forum (a few headings down)



cheers

[Staminus]

I'm in QLD.
The car is about 1500 bucks negotiable, does this seem like an OK price?

The petrol usage seems quite high but I was fairly prepared for that to be the case due to their age and everything. Are there any diesel variety and how do they go in comparatively?

I'm having a look at that REMLR forum and it's pretty interesting, IF I wanted to register this normally and drive it around would that be possible too or only on the special plate?
:p

[Aaron IIA]

I drive a 1962 SIIA as my everyday car. It is very reliable, having always got me home. $1500 I would say is a fair price if it goes, stops, and has a good chasis. If all the electrics work, bonus. If there are a couple of things wrong, this is still O.K., as they are quite easy to fix. You would want to be handy with a spanner though, as all vehicles this age are only as reliable as the amount of maintenance you put into them. If it has been heavily refurbished, you should be fine for a long time.
The SIIA ex-military Land Rover is a bit better than the civillian version. They have twin tanks for extended range, two windscreen wipers instead of one, raised suspension and cut front guards, so the wheels have less of a chance of getting caught on them during cross axle situations.
Once tuned up really well, you should be able to get about 6~6.5 Km per litre of petrol.
The SIIA has a stronger gearbox than the SIII. It achieves this by having crash gears on first and second. So get accostomed to double de-clutching. It is quite easy.
These Land Rovers don't have a lot of modern technology so there is less stuff to go wrong. There is no vacuum brake booster, but this is no problem. I can still lock up the wheels on the bitumen. You just have to press a bit harder.
As for ability off road - it gets better when you load them up. They have a welded box-frame chasis that is designed not to twist. By adding a load (six or so willing friends) you get the springs fully working and can conquer more difficult terrain. Petrols also do relatively well in the sand when driven correctly.
The petrol engine is very forgiving, and still drives well even when completely worn out. Diesels are around, but compartively rare. I drive one, but they are not as easily fixed when in the field. Pulling appart and cleaning a carburettor is much easier than pulling appart a complex injector pump and injector system. For ease of use and simplicity, stick to the petrol.
Aaron.

[isuzurover]

I have a 1968 Ex-Military IIA with a 2.25 Diesel (I converted it). Not quite a daily driver, but I did drive it to work today, and I take it offroad every 2nd weekend or so.

Capable offroad you ask? (it climbed that like it wasn't there)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Admittedly mine does have a few minor mods and upgrades. The 2.25D is very economical, but as mentioned hard to find.

For hard offroad use, the only major problem with the SIIA LWB (109") is the strength of the rear axles. However you can upgrade the internals or the entire axle to a SIII Salisbury quite easily. The gearbox layshaft can fail, but that usually isn't a huge concern, and by this stage, many (like mine) should be fitted with an improved (correctly radiused) layshaft which is much stronger.

The standard suspension is far too stiff (especially military models) to get decent wheel travel offroad, however this is easy to fix, and I have posted a few threads on how I have done mine.

EDIT - re Aaron's comment about no modern technology... On last weekend's trip, my near new battery decided to die mysteriously (Completely 100% dead). I just got some people to help push start the IIA, and then made sure I was on a slope whenever I turned it off. I love having an engine with absolutely NO ELECTRICS :D

[Newbs-IIA]

Or even better - get a crank handle and impress all the shoppers down a coles when you crank start your old landy in the carpark :D

[Staminus]

Cool, heaps of great information here, thank you very much.
Lastly, in terms of towing capacity what kg are these legally able to tow etc?

[UncleHo]

G'day Staminus :)

Got your PM and have just sent you an answer, you can call me if you wish as I will be home all weekend :D

Uncle Ho

[Aaron IIA]

EDIT - re Aaron's comment about no modern technology... On last weekend's trip, my near new battery decided to die mysteriously (Completely 100% dead). I just got some people to help push start the IIA, and then made sure I was on a slope whenever I turned it off. I love having an engine with absolutely NO ELECTRICS :D

I like this trick. With a petrol engine, you need at least a small 8~12V source to fire up the coil. Or you need to push it quite quick to get the GENERATOR to excite. (Some ALTERNATORS do self excite, but you generally need to get the engine to rev to about 3000 RPM. This means that you have to push it really really quick.) With the Diesel engine, absolutely no electricity is need to start the engine. Just a small push start. Once running, all the electrics come back online.
I have never heard of anyone starting a Diesel engine by hand without using a de-compression lever. These 2.25L diesels have precombustion chambers, so to keep the compression ratio up, the piston is flat topped and comes up flush with the block. The cylinder head if also flat and comes down flush with the block. There is only room for the valves to open when the piston is slightly down. So no de-compression lever, and no crank starts. But push or roll starting is soooo easy.
Aaron.

[isuzurover]

I like this trick. With a petrol engine, you need at least a small 8~12V source to fire up the coil. Or you need to push it quite quick to get the GENERATOR to excite. (Some ALTERNATORS do self excite, but you generally need to get the engine to rev to about 3000 RPM. This means that you have to push it really really quick.) With the Diesel engine, absolutely no electricity is need to start the engine. Just a small push start. Once running, all the electrics come back online.
I have never heard of anyone starting a Diesel engine by hand without using a de-compression lever. These 2.25L diesels have precombustion chambers, so to keep the compression ratio up, the piston is flat topped and comes up flush with the block. The cylinder head if also flat and comes down flush with the block. There is only room for the valves to open when the piston is slightly down. So no de-compression lever, and no crank starts. But push or roll starting is soooo easy.
Aaron.

What is even better is the manual stop control (fuel shut off). When I am on REALLY steep hills offroad I will pull the engine stop out. It makes engine braking twice as effective. I have a video a mate took of me going down a steep dropoff - it is really easy to spot the point where I pull out the engine stop.

[Staminus]

The one thing that has started to concern me is what would happen if i rolled the car? The metal things in the back do not look too strong and I'm wondering if the doors / windscreen would be able to hold the weight if the car rolled.

I'd prefer to not get crushed :p

[isuzurover]

The one thing that has started to concern me is what would happen if i rolled the car? The metal things in the back do not look too strong and I'm wondering if the doors / windscreen would be able to hold the weight if the car rolled.

I'd prefer to not get crushed :p

Fitting a roll bar would be a good idea. There is plenty of space to fit one. I have never rolled mine, but I know a few people who have - however they all had ute cabs or hard tops (which stood up to the roll surprisingly well).

[UncleHo]

G'day Staminus :)

I repaired a rolled 2a soft top a couple of years ago, went off the side of the road on a hill, windscreen kinda folded down to the steering wheel, and there was a few dings in the body, the canopy and canopy bars were a write off but it was quite repairable, the driver just got shaken up and crawled out of the rear:) fitting a roll bar is a good idea, but I haven't got one in mine,by putting heavier wall gauge tubing in the canopy bars would also help, hope that is of some help.

cheers

[Staminus]

I was interested to see how well these things tow and I got my answer :eek:
YouTube - 40 year old Land rover pulls 5 tonne container with ease (http://youtube.com/watch?v=5kIs7EWmxMc)

[Aaron IIA]

What is even better is the manual stop control (fuel shut off). When I am on REALLY steep hills offroad I will pull the engine stop out. It makes engine braking twice as effective. I have a video a mate took of me going down a steep dropoff - it is really easy to spot the point where I pull out the engine stop.

It seems that us lucky fellows who have this delightfull engine all use the same tricks. It is a good one to use when you want to go really slow.
Aaron.

[Aaron IIA]

The U-Tube movie was of a diesel. It looks a little tired, as it souldn't blow any smoke when working properly.
Aaron.

[isuzurover]

It seems that us lucky fellows who have this delightfull engine all use the same tricks. It is a good one to use when you want to go really slow.
Aaron.

Indeed! ;)

[JDNSW]

Just to amplify and agree with most of what has been said.

I have a similar one to the one you picture, only currently a ute cab, and it is my daily driver for local use, although I did drive it to Cooma and back at Easter, about 700km each way.

It is easy and nice to drive, although the brake pedal pressures are high by modern standards, and in parking areas the lack of power steering and the large turning circle become evident. On the highway, they are slow and noisy compared to modern four wheel drives, although the noise can be greatly improved by detail derattling and a little sound insulation (there is none as standard). Fuel consumption is as stated, not too good, but the engine is reliable and still keeps going when well worn, and will stand terrible abuse, although it will perform better if looked after properly. (And remember that the vehicle may be forty years old, with half a dozen or more (ab)users before you!)

Legal towing mass is 1.6tonnes according to my owners manual, but I have an idea it may have been uprated retrospectively, although this may not carry any legal weight in your state unless it has found its way into official documents. The 1.6T in the owners manual is legal for the 2a in any state since this is the manufacturer's figure at the time of manufacture.

The diesel engine is relatively rare, but much more economical (on one occasion I got 36mpg from the one I owned forty years ago, but usually round 30), albeit significantly lower power. It is also noisy and vibrates badly at idle, and seems less durable than the petrol version, although still not bad (unlike the petrol engine it will not stand overheating).

As said, the 2a gearbox is generally regarded as more durable than the Series 3 one. The only "weak" point in general is the rear axles shafts and rear diff. The soft top has little roll over protection, but rollovers are rare, probably because the aluminium body means that the centre of gravity is low compared to steel bodied closed vehicles, and the lack of sway bars means that body roll frightens the driver before it gets really dangerous. But you can roll them if you try!

Offroad capability of the Series 2a is better than almost all current four wheel drives (both stock), including the ones you mention, and you are significantly less likely to break things as well. Further, unlike almost all current four wheel drives except the Defender, there is no door sill above the floor, and no impediment to hosing out the interior.

A significant point about all Series Landrovers, and to a slightly lesser extent the Defender, is that unlike all other cars, they are bolted together like a meccano set. This means not only that repairs and modifications are easy, but body style is easy to change. Many parts are interchangeable from 1958 to 1983.

In summary, the Landrover 2a is capable, cheap and easy to repair, maintain or modify, reliable, and pleasant to drive, at least on short trips or offroad.

On the down side, they are noisy slow, gas guzzlers, but the major downside is that the newest one is nearly forty years old, although it is possible to bring one back to new condition - but this is a lot more expensive than just overhauling on condition!

John