Wheel nut torque question

[Jamo]

The situation is this:

I went to change one wheel today for the spare as that particular tyre is more worn than the others due to a wheel alignment problem.
The last people to touch the wheels were a certain Perth Land Rover Dealer who rotated the wheels at a service.

Well...

The torque for a D3 wheel nut is 145Nm.

My rattle gun (air) won't budge the nuts!

My torque wrench only goes up to 200Nm and it clicks out immediately!

I'm over ranting about these things so my question is this:

Do I go to one of the local tyre places and get the nuts loosened? or
Do I leave them until i go up to Perth next weekend for some work to be done (new shocks and a compressor issue) and get the dealer to do it, bearing in mind that if I have a flat in the mean time, I'm stuffed?

Is it possible that the studs may be damaged from having the nuts put on too tight, thus if I have them loosened here I maybe even more stuffed??

help please?

TIA

[51jay]

Had the same problem with mine. My 12V percussion wheel nut remover took them off with relative ease (about $70 at supercheap) and I replaced them using a torque wrench. I don'treally know if the studs are stretched or not...but no problems since

[PAT303]

I would ring the dealer and give it to them over it.Too many people on this forum are having dealer related problems.If you get a bad response send a letter to LR head office. Pat

[scarry]

is there anyone out there who has anything good to say about these dealers:(

[Jamo]

I'm more interested in the immediate situation given that I still have about 1000km to drive this week plus the 700km trip to Perth on the weekend.

On the dealer though, it's likely that an apprentice did the nuts with a rattle gun and no-one checked to see if he knew what he was doing. I only ever do nuts up manually myself. The boom here has seen lot's of good mechanics head off to the mines, leaving dealers with a workshop full of apprentices.

Nevertheless, I'll be speaking to them about it. The service in question cost me $1000 and overtorquing the nuts is a failure to follow LR procedure.

[LandyAndy]

Hey Jamo
When the pressure on the nuts is a bit too high a good bar should relieve the pressure:p:p:p:p:p
Till you sort the issue with the stealer find a bit of pipe to fit over the wheel brace to increase your mechanical advantage!!!
Andrew

[dmdigital]

Hey Jamo
When the pressure on the nuts is a bit too high a good bar should relieve the pressure:p:p:p:p:p
Till you sort the issue with the stealer find a bit of pipe to fit over the wheel brace to increase your mechanical advantage!!!
Andrew

If you have a Tirfor (or similar), the handle is a good accessory for just this type of situation.

[WhiteD3]

Been there, done that! At least you discovered it at home and not out on the tracks like I did!

I'd go to the local tyre outlet and get them to loosen them all.
DON'T use the LR wheel brace, it'll break.
$50 will get you a good quality 450mm 1/2" wrench with 22mm socket.
Make sure that the sheet metal cover on the nuts doesn't come loose when they finally come loose.

[kitacooch]

I agree with you, i think about right now and what if i get a flat down a deserted road, get them loosened or use a wheel brace whith an extension if need be to loosen them.
There is a real possibility that the guy who rotated them (the apprentice) didn't apply any lube to the nuts, so they are grabbing and may even seem tighter than they actually are, mind you if you have the same luck as me they probably over tightened and without lube, the double wammy, anyway it is unlikely that the studs are dammaged. Oh and i am one very much in favour of quality feedback, a good stern phone conversation followed up by a letter or email is the right thing to do. I am one who has experienced a flat tyre on the side of the road after recently haveing tyres rotated and couldn't for the life of me undo some of the nuts, even with a decent extension bar, my tyre dealer sure got some quality feed back and later i got a flat fixed for free.

[Jamo]

Thanks for the advice.

I've already tried the handle from my 3tn trolley jack over my socket bar but to no avail. So it's off to the local tyre outlet to get them loosened (hopefully).

I'll just have to take a punt that the studs aren't stretched.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

a 3/4 drive rattle gun should shift 'em,,,

I had a GOOD experience with the dealer at Toowoomba just recently,,

Its the way the internet works--
you only EVER hear about the bad things--

[WhiteD3]

Reading this thread made me think I should check my nuts (Wheels nuts that is!);). First wheel I tried I couldn't budge any of the nuts, so its back to xyz tyres tomorrow for a whinge.

These guys replaced my tyre after my last misadventure and I specifically asked them not to use the rattle gun!:mad:

[PAT303]

The studs will be OK,I have had this happen to me so now anytime I get my tyres rotated I loosen them off and re-torque them before I leave the shop so I know they are right.I put anti-sieze on the threads aswell. Pat

[D3Jon]

Overtightned wheel nuts / studs can be very dangerous.

A few years back in the UK a Subaru Impreza had a wheel come off during a track day. The car crashed heavily and the driver was killed. The inquiry found that the wheel studs had been overtightned (the other wheels were also all overtightned) and this led to the wheel studs failing; thus causing the fatal accident.

Obviously the Subaru was being driven 'on the limit', also I would have thought that the studs must have been grossly overtightened, however it's worth checking the condition of your studs.

A 2.7 Tonne D3 is a big car which will be generating some force in it's components when cornering - especially if it's got another 600Kg of passengers and cargo onboard.

Jon

[Jamo]

I spoke to Southern LR and am going to go to a local tyre place and have them loosened. I'll try one wheel first in case the nuts pull the thread off with them.

I check the torque of the nuts once a fortnight, but it didn't occur to me (:oops2:)that they may be too tight. I've never had a problem with removing them via my rattle gun before.

I may get the studs replaced.

PS. I didn't want this to be a rant about dealers. Like everything else, they're made up of individuals and it's usually an individual who let's the side down. And as I'm a Fremantle Dockers member, I'm used to let downs!

[Aedo]

Timely thread for me! I had a teck screw in the RRear the other day (with 3000ks on the tyre - lucky it was reapairable!) and realised I couldn't find the wheel nut torque setting in the manual (then realised I don't have a 22mm socket anyway:().


The studs will be OK,I have had this happen to me so now anytime I get my tyres rotated I loosen them off and re-torque them before I leave the shop so I know they are right.I put anti-sieze on the threads aswell. Pat
Is this a good idea? I've always thought that the torque setting was based on clean dry threads - won't anti-seize lubricate the threads and therefore give a higher bolt load for given torque?

[JDNSW]

Timely thread for me! I had a teck screw in the RRear the other day (with 3000ks on the tyre - lucky it was reapairable!) and realised I couldn't find the wheel nut torque setting in the manual (then realised I don't have a 22mm socket anyway:().


Is this a good idea? I've always thought that the torque setting was based on clean dry threads - won't anti-seize lubricate the threads and therefore give a higher bolt load for given torque?

To quote my 110 workshop manual "always oil thread lightly before tightening" - this is in the general instructions, but I very much doubt that the wheel nuts would be any different. The only argument about this would be the tendency for oil to pick up dust, but even so I think I would prefer a bit of dust to rusted on wheel nuts.

All torque settings assume that the thread is free to move, since if there is no oil film, the thread resistance is unpredictable. The shoulder the nut tightens on should also be lubricated, as again, friction on that makes the tightness unpredictable.

Worth noting that in general, loose nuts on the RH side will tighten, loose nuts on the LH side will loosen.

Damaging the studs by overtightening on older Landrovers with 7/16 or 16mm studs is pretty unlikely, but newer (P38A+, Disco 2+) designs use a smaller stud from memory, which is not as strong. Also use a smaller PCD, which increases the load on the studs from cornering forces. Note that Defenders continue to use the old stud size and PCD, which has remained unchanged since 1948.

John

[D3Jon]

My understanding is that you should never lubricate wheel stud threads or the seating face of the nut / stud as this can lead to over-torquing. I was taught this by my MVT (Motor Vehicle Technology) tutor.

However, I just checked my 90 / 110 owners book (Edition 7) and on page 58 it states "If available, place a drop of oil or grease on the wheel studs to assist in replacement"

This got me interested so I checked my Disco 3 owners handbook and found no less than 13 pages dedicated to changing a wheel most of which seemed to be warnings! No mention of oiling (or not oiling) threads that I could see with a quick look at it though.

I did a search on the internet and it comes up with conflicting advice, a couple of car owners manuals came up in the search as pdf's and these stated that you should not lubricate wheel studs as they will be over-torqued. Around half the sites I found said you should never lubricate the threads, including one where a tyre shop used to charge customers to clean lubricant off wheel studs! But just a many said you should oil them; as by not lubricating leads to under-torquing them!! Others said it's ok to oil truck studs but not passenger cars!

I can't find a definite answer on this. Anyone know anything else about this??

Jon

[Rosco]

Regarding lubricating the threads, I have greased them for years without a problem, including serious corrugations. As a side note I have noted on more than one occasion the army fellas grease their nuts .. :angel:.

But I have also noted they use "tell tale" marks as well. So they can check them at a glance I expect.

[waynep]

Go get an impact socket ( black one ) not a regular socket.

I never trust the tyre shops to put wheels on the car - If getting new tyres I put the other set of rims/tyres on the car and take the rims with old tyres in on the trailer. ( another advantage of having a seperate set of offroad tyres and rims. )

You might tell then not to use the rattle gun torqued up to the max, but will they listen ?

[isuzurover]

My understanding is that you should never lubricate wheel stud threads or the seating face of the nut / stud as this can lead to over-torquing. I was taught this by my MVT (Motor Vehicle Technology) tutor.

However, I just checked my 90 / 110 owners book (Edition 7) and on page 58 it states "If available, place a drop of oil or grease on the wheel studs to assist in replacement"

This got me interested so I checked my Disco 3 owners handbook and found no less than 13 pages dedicated to changing a wheel most of which seemed to be warnings! No mention of oiling (or not oiling) threads that I could see with a quick look at it though.

I did a search on the internet and it comes up with conflicting advice, a couple of car owners manuals came up in the search as pdf's and these stated that you should not lubricate wheel studs as they will be over-torqued. Around half the sites I found said you should never lubricate the threads, including one where a tyre shop used to charge customers to clean lubricant off wheel studs! But just a many said you should oil them; as by not lubricating leads to under-torquing them!! Others said it's ok to oil truck studs but not passenger cars!

I can't find a definite answer on this. Anyone know anything else about this??

Jon

I looked into this too, and found the same conflicting evidence. Dana (makers of more axles than anyone else) say to "lightly oil the first couple of threads" - and in highly corrosive environments to oil the wheel mounting face.

I don't usually put any oil on mine though. I would NEVER use grease or an anti-sieze compound though.

[Lucus]

If you lubricate a thread and torque it to the original spec it will be over torqued.

Most fastener manufacterors recommend a 15 to 20% if the threads are lubricated.

As far as i know this reduction is based around the use of antiseize/antigall compounds.

I always put a drop of light oil or antisieze on wheels studs. Saves a heap of stuffing around if the threads seize of gall up. I definatly wouldnt put antisieze on the taper set though.

[scarry]

after reading this thread i have come to the following conclusion.....but i do stand to be corrected.

after 29 years of doing up wheel nuts on vehicles & always using a torque wrench i have never had a wheel come off or come loose.
i always use a bit of grease or antisieze on the thread because if the nut binds on the thread the wheel will not be tight enough

just my 2 cents worth ;)

cheers:)

[PhilipA]

Ditto, except I never torque them. Just rattle them twice or so then undo them with the standard brace and redo them.
I use anti seize on the threads and on the shanks and flanges of the RRC mag wheel nuts and on the mag to centre hub.
I also do this with the camper which does not have central location of the hub.
Just did 5K over some of the worst corrugations in OZ ( Strezlecki, Merty Merty, Cameron to Tiboburra, Tib to White cliffs), and checked them every couple of days with no probs.
Regards Philip A

[Davo]

I always use some Loctite anti-seize as I've had too many times when dry threads seize up. I also always tighten them up with just the short little wheel spanner that SIIIs came with. This gives about the right torque without overdoing it. This is with Disco steels on SIII hubs.

I once said to a tyre shop: "Don't use a rattle gun. Just tighten them by hand." And they did.

Except they did them up too tight by hand instead! :p I know because I went around and checked later on.

You can't win!

[rick130]

If you lubricate a thread and torque it to the original spec it will be over torqued.

Most fastener manufacterors recommend a 15 to 20% if the threads are lubricated.

As far as i know this reduction is based around the use of antiseize/antigall compounds.

I always put a drop of light oil or antisieze on wheels studs. Saves a heap of stuffing around if the threads seize of gall up. I definatly wouldnt put antisieze on the taper set though.

Depends on the fasteners.

On engines, it is always assumed that all bolts are to be lubricated before fitting and tensioning, and all tensions that are called for are for lubricated threads.

FWIW, I've always used anti-seize, always used a tension wrench for the last fifteen years and never had a problem......so far.

Also have an interesting article somewhere written by Ford Motorsport USA on rod bolts and tension.
They did fatigue cycle to failure tests on correctly, over and under tensioned rod bolts, and the under tensioned bolts had a dramatically shorter life than either the correctly or over tensioned (plastic deformation had begun) bolts.
Surprisingly, the overtensioned bolts lives wasn't that different to the correctly tensioned bolts, IIRC only a bit shorter.

[JDNSW]

The problem with not lubricating threads, is that unless the threads are spotlessly clean (i.e. new) the amount of friction is quite unpredictable.

With wheel nuts, these are operating in the dirt and muck, and furthermore are prone to rusting, so there is a good case for lubrication so you can undo them next time anyway, regardless of recommendations. Fortunately most Landrovers have large wheel studs compared to most cars, and the acceptable(= troublefree) range of tightness is quite wide. In my experience, the problems with wheel nuts have been (in order of frequency):-

1. Rusted on (failed to lubricate thread)
2. So tight they are impossible to undo (due to tyre place's use of rattle gun)
3. Came loose due to failure to tighten (usually forgot the last step of tightening after lowering to the ground)
4. Came loose because thread friction made them appear tight but they were not. (failed to lubricate thread)

John

[Treads]

In my experience, the problems with wheel nuts have been (in order of frequency):-

1. Rusted on (failed to lubricate thread)
2. So tight they are impossible to undo (due to tyre place's use of rattle gun)
3. Came loose due to failure to tighten (usually forgot the last step of tightening after lowering to the ground)
4. Came loose because thread friction made them appear tight but they were not. (failed to lubricate thread)


A few weeks ago I had the pleasurable task :mad: of removing one of my alloys. This was the first time I'd had to do this since my new 694LT's were put on. Even with my rattle gun on the highest torque setting I couldn't get the nuts off :eek: I'm glad I wasn't out in the bush when I found this out :censored:
Had to use a large extension bar to finally get them off. Needless to say a certain Coffs Harbour Bridgestone dealer got some 'feedback' over that :angel:
That prompted me to take the wheels off all the cars & float and retighten to the lowest setting on the rattle gun, followed by a tweak by hand.

After reading all this I think I'll start putting a bit of light oil on the start of the threads too....

Thanks

[disco2hse]

is there anyone out there who has anything good to say about these dealers:(

They make good coffee and the receptionist was worth a look over. Oh, and their mum's probably think they're just terrific.

[Davo]

4. Came loose because thread friction made them appear tight but they were not. (failed to lubricate thread)


That's a really good point. I'll bet that happens more often than we realise.