BP Diesel vs Caltex Diesel Strange

[ak]

Have been filling up with BP diesel for ages because, sure I read here on AULRO it's better, anyway on my way home late last week and the only one still open was Caltex filled up and bugger me got 40k more out of a tank. Driving style and pattern has not changed between fills and it has not been serviced between both fills. Filled up again with Caltex today to see if I get the same result. This one's stuffed me cause I was lead to believe BP sold better quality fuel.

[mcrover]

I dont know where you got that BP diesel was better than any of the others, most people I know try to stay away from it.

We went from an agent supply to BP for 1 tank load bulk and had heaps of problems and usage went up by 15% at the slowest time of the year so we went back to our agent which we get more of a constant quality.

I used to only use caltex when I was on the road all the time as I never had any problems with it but I dont know if caltex actually make their own fuel anymore or just import and blend like most retailers these days.

Shell down here is the absolute worst, out of 100ltrs I didnt even make 800kms last time I used Shell in my Disco and the Carolla goes through 2 weeks of fuel in about 6 to 7 days and only does the same run everyday.

[Slunnie]

I also have found economy to be poor with BP diesel. I've never had any problems ever with any of BP's fuels, but the diesel just doesn't give the range by a noticable margin.

So far I've found Shell to be good in the TD5, though I don't use other fuels all that often.

[drivesafe]

Must be something to do with the way each engine is set up.

I can’t comment on Caltex as I wouldn’t put that crap in my lawn mower but I just did a round trip to Melbourne and noticed I got the best milage per tank when using BP, while Shell and Mobil gave me about the same milage.

Can’t offer any reasons as to why the difference.

[B92 8NW]

Generally I wouldn't be too convinced on the first tank that a dramatic difference in MPG exists. It might have foamed less and you managed to get more in before it clicked full, the conditions would have varied, the weather would have been different, traffic light timings, times spent idling etc.

Keep trying it though, there might be a difference

Having said that, this "reputable" ACA report may suggest that also http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=381128

*Edit* In no way do I believe an ACA test to be scientifically based, for a start two cars running the same fuel would have been wise as naturally variations would exist between the vehicles... even then, the variations between the drivers would need accounting for

[abaddonxi]

Generally I wouldn't be too convinced on the first tank that a dramatic difference in MPG exists. It might have foamed less and you managed to get more in before it clicked full, the conditions would have varied, the weather would have been different, traffic light timings, times spent idling etc.

Keep trying it though, there might be a difference

Having said that, this "reputable" ACA report may suggest that also The Great Petrol Test (http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=381128)

*Edit* In no way do I believe an ACA test to be scientifically based, for a start two cars running the same fuel would have been wise as naturally variations would exist between the vehicles... even then, the variations between the drivers would need accounting for

Jeez Joel, next thing you'll be quoting Mythbusters.:p

Cheers
Simon

[Sleepy]

I've always prefered BP because of similar wivestales about higher heptane rating. (And cos the BP is handier;).) It seems I blow less smoke on the BP too. I'll have to try the competition and see if I get a different result.
(Although I have noticed a dramatic increase in economy since they put an 80Kmh roadworks limit on the Monash Fwy....I think my lead foot doesn't help economy when you drive a vehicle that is shaped like a brick!:angel: :burnrubber:)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I think it depends on which refineries you have near to you. In Brisbane we have caltex and BP locally and all the fuel comes from those I'm told.

I think their ultimate is definitely a better petrol, and I'd kind of assumed the diesel would be better. However the reality is that I try hardest to buy from a major brand and from an outlet that looks like it would have good volume (hence fresher).

[Xavie]

I filled up at one of those united stations on Victoria road in Drummoyne because it was 10c a litre cheaper. I lost around 200 kilometers out of that tank. I couldn't believe it the needle was noticeably just going down and down and down.

Xav

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I filled up at one of those united stations on Victoria road in Drummoyne because it was 10c a litre cheaper. I lost around 200 kilometers out of that tank. I couldn't believe it the needle was noticeably just going down and down and down.

Xav

I'd have to be **really** sure about a no-name before I filled up there by choice. I'm not saying they are all bad but when travelling I just don't take the risk.

[Slunnie]

I'd have to be **really** sure about a no-name before I filled up there by choice. I'm not saying they are all bad but when travelling I just don't take the risk.
I agree, but of the big names I've had bad batches of petrol from all of them except BP and Mobil

[F4Phantom]

I am not sure I will ever understand different fuels, engines and economy properly. I had a wrx which required premium so thats what I gave it..... untill I was getting rid of it in a couple of months so one day I put regular unleaded in it. I got 500km instead of 400km that tank. From that time on I got a minimum of 80 km more per tank and often 100km. I could not believe it. And this was a high compression turbo engine which can actually use the premium better than a lower compression engine. As for diesel I will be using caltex and checking it out next time.

[rick130]

Nearly always use BP as that's what my local stocks and it's fresh every week.
When in Tamworth we use Caltex from the depot, (2% biodiesel) and the number of times we've used it we appear to get the best fuel economy out of the Patrol, as did Mum in their TD5, yet my Tdi seems unfazed by it ?

Of the published diesel fuel specs, BP's is the best, but you are going to get variations depending on location, cleanliness and turnover.

[Treads]

I too have always been of the understanding that BP is the cleanest fuel, followed by Mobil & Caltex. I don't know where I got that from other than my dad - Who worked with aviation fuels all his working life. :)

The techniques I use for getting the best 'bang for my buck' is to fill up when it's cold, so there are less vapours (cold not being rare here ;) ). I was also told, when I worked at BP in my youth, that instead of being in a rush and holding the handle down all the way we should use about 1/3 the flow rate as this leads to less turbulence and less aeration of the fuel. Hence more of what is being counted on the meter actually ends up in your tank.

[JohnE]

lots of technical replies,
for my money i won't buy BP from the Lismore servo, because out of both diesels I had, the economy on their particular fuel was woeful. Henceforth won't touch there diesel anywhere else.
But their E10 is ok in the toyota.


john

[Desert Traveller]

Most of the diesels are from the same suppliers, either Oz refineries or SE Asia, the only difference is the marketing hype. :o

[BMKal]

Most of the diesels are from the same suppliers, either Oz refineries or SE Asia, the only difference is the marketing hype. :o

:thumbsup: Exactly :thumbsup:

And if you're in WA - it all comes through the BP refinery in Kwinana.

The only reason that I've stopped going to BP in the metro area over here, is that a lot of them, if not most (unless they're a truck stop) now only sell the "Premium" brand of diesel, designed for gullible fools, at a "Premium" price.

I usually fuel up at The Lakes (up inthe hills) BP on the way home to Kal now - it's a truck stop - they sell the "normal" BP diesel which works just as well as (if not better than) the "Premium" crap - and they have "fast fill" bowsers, so I can pump it in and fill up the D2 so fast that I can't see the dollars racking up until it hits me with the total cost when the tank is full. It's also a lot easier to fill it right up with the fast fill - probably because there's less air entrained in the fuel through the pump. :whistling:

[isuzurover]

Most of you are all fooling yourselves if you think you are getting the fuel on the label.

IF THERE IS NO BP REFINERY IN YOUR STATE, then there is ALMOST NO CHANCE you are getting diesel produced by a BP refinery.

QLD
All diesel comes from BP or Caltex (e.g. shell = BP, and woolies/mobil, etc, etc = caltex)

NSW
All diesel comes from Caltex or Shell. NO BP - unless it comes down from QLD.

VIC
Mobil or Shell

SA
I think all fuel comes from Vic? (so Mobil or Shell)

WA
ALL Diesel from esperance to Broome comes from BP Kwinana, except for Gull B20 (- which is made on the gold coast and sold all over Australia apparently). Shell also ships tankers from VIC, but not sure if that is diesel of ULP.

SO - You can only REALLY buy BP if you live in QLD or WA.

[Sleepy]

Not sure where you get your facts from isuzu but have always thought this was the case. I always remember during fuel strikes that companies would close a refinery and everyone runs out of fuel - suggesting it all comes from the same place.
One of the comments that I see repeated here which may be the route of this thread is the "freshness" of fuel. (I can remember finding a 4 year old jerry can of unleaded in the shed and using it with no discernable difference.)
How long does fuel stay "fresh"? and what happens to it when it is "stale"? Does diesel go "off" quicker than other fuels?:confused:

[isuzurover]

Not sure where you get your facts from isuzu but have always thought this was the case. I always remember during fuel strikes that companies would close a refinery and everyone runs out of fuel - suggesting it all comes from the same place.
One of the comments that I see repeated here which may be the route of this thread is the "freshness" of fuel. (I can remember finding a 4 year old jerry can of unleaded in the shed and using it with no discernable difference.)
How long does fuel stay "fresh"? and what happens to it when it is "stale"? Does diesel go "off" quicker than other fuels?:confused:

Hi Sleepy - I have been involved with a couple of refineries over the years. So that info (if I remembered it all correctly) was based on what I was told by senior engineers who worked at refineries.

It isn't usually worth transporting fuel very far (once refined), so fuel companies have "product sharing" agreements in place in each state.

As an aside, during the 90's many refineries in OZ were LOSING about $2 per barrel on all fuel they made. Not these days though.

I know that BP Bulwer Is (Brisbane) has a newer diesel plant than most, so they are able to produce diesel with a higher parrafin/olefin content and a lower aromatic content (which is what you really want). However when the plant was commissioned, they had lots of problems with older IP seals failing because of the lower aromatic content - and had to pay LOTS of money to get seals replaced on people's fuel systems.

EDIT - don't know the answer to the deterioration Q - sorry.

[Slunnie]

Most of you are all fooling yourselves if you think you are getting the fuel on the label.

IF THERE IS NO BP REFINERY IN YOUR STATE, then there is ALMOST NO CHANCE you are getting diesel produced by a BP refinery.

QLD
All diesel comes from BP or Caltex (e.g. shell = BP, and woolies/mobil, etc, etc = caltex)

NSW
All diesel comes from Caltex or Shell. NO BP - unless it comes down from QLD.

VIC
Mobil or Shell

SA
I think all fuel comes from Vic? (so Mobil or Shell)

WA
ALL Diesel from esperance to Broome comes from BP Kwinana, except for Gull B20 (- which is made on the gold coast and sold all over Australia apparently). Shell also ships tankers from VIC, but not sure if that is diesel of ULP.

SO - You can only REALLY buy BP if you live in QLD or WA.

Is there a practice of fuel companies or stations modifying the fuels from the refinery?

[isuzurover]

Is there a practice of fuel companies or stations modifying the fuels from the refinery?

Not that I am aware of, but I have only been involved with the refining side, not the distribution side.

Roverrat on OL works on the distribution side of things AFAIK, so he should know. I remember him saying that Caltex (WA) only have 1 distribution line for the 3 grades of ULP. So if you buy (BP) ULP from Caltex(WA), there is a chance you may get something with slightly higher octane for no extra cost!!!

[Slunnie]

Not that I am aware of, but I have only been involved with the refining side, not the distribution side.

Roverrat on OL works on the distribution side of things AFAIK, so he should know. I remember him saying that Caltex (WA) only have 1 distribution line for the 3 grades of ULP. So if you buy (BP) ULP from Caltex(WA), there is a chance you may get something with slightly higher octane for no extra cost!!!
They're cheering!

I just wondered why then so many people are finding BP diesel to give less range than other manufacturers, and the only thing that I could think of then was post refinery changes to the fuel.

Also, is there at some servo's differing grade diesel that comes from the fast fill bowsers or similar? I think I'd also heard somewhere along the line that there was a different coloured Ag diesel????

[isuzurover]

They're cheering!

I just wondered why then so many people are finding BP diesel to give less range than other manufacturers, and the only thing that I could think of then was post refinery changes to the fuel.

Also, is there at some servo's differing grade diesel that comes from the fast fill bowsers or similar? I think I'd also heard somewhere along the line that there was a different coloured Ag diesel????


The distributors may do some blending - as I said, not 100% sure on that. I know some of the independent distributors got busted a while back for blending toluene (etc.) with ULP.

As for the Hi-flow - 99.9% sure it is the same stuff from the same tank. As for colour, that is just a dye - Ag diesel has different duty doesn't it?

Duty on fuel is a big deal! In Brisbane there are pipelined from the refineries to the port (where customs are). The refineries have a couple of bowsers for on-site vehicles, but the fuel for them must be trucked back from the port, after duty has been added...

[RonMcGr]

Have been filling up with BP diesel for ages because, sure I read here on AULRO it's better, anyway on my way home late last week and the only one still open was Caltex filled up and bugger me got 40k more out of a tank. Driving style and pattern has not changed between fills and it has not been serviced between both fills. Filled up again with Caltex today to see if I get the same result. This one's stuffed me cause I was lead to believe BP sold better quality fuel.

There was a test done last year, Caltex was proven to be the best grade of fuel and gave more mileage on a tank in each product variation.

Ron

[DEFENDERZOOK]

for those who are getting less kms per litre.......its also possible this is a
blend of bio diesel.......

you have no way of knowing what you are pumping into your tank anymore......




and as far as colours go.......plain diesel should be clear.....ie. no colour.....

bio is supposed to be yellow......the colour of cooking oil.......i guess.....


and i have even pumped into my tank some purple diesel once.....
i still have no idea what this was.....unless it was alpine diesel.....
i thought it was petrol.....i had to double check the bowser......
and the taste.........everything felt right except for the colour.....

[B92 8NW]

and i have even pumped into my tank some purple diesel once.....
i still have no idea what this was.....unless it was alpine diesel.....
i thought it was petrol.....i had to double check the bowser......
and the taste.........everything felt right except for the colour.....

I had the purple diesel once from safeway ages ago. Same colour as a cadbury packet:o.

[EchiDna]

well in the lab where I work (I'm no longer in the oil lab though), the dyes are added purely to discern the market of the buyer, or indeed to identify the seller - you can't remove the dye once it's in there, so a colour test helps the regulators know the origin of the fuel in question, and indeed the rate of blending when the colour concentration doesn't match the original (where relevant). From what I've seen on the distribution side, they are mainly cowboys and will blend in anything containing carbon, including gases, to make a batch of whatever spec is required.

Nobody and I mean nobody would let extra energy go into a retail pump without making money on it, so the chances of getting high octane petrol or high cetane diesel for the price of standard is nigh on impossible to imagine happening in all but the rarest of occassions - and when/if it did you can be sure someone would pay for it with their job! The supplying plant might only make high spec fuels, but the buyer will blend down to spec before it makes it to retail sale.

IMHO, the variation you might get is purely down to someone in the blending team eeking out some extra profit through a bit of extra dilution with some cheap carbon - this can happen in any company and I would really doubt it systematic for any given company, but highly likely to happen across all of em on occassion.

[isuzurover]

Nobody and I mean nobody would let extra energy go into a retail pump without making money on it, so the chances of getting high octane petrol or high cetane diesel for the price of standard is nigh on impossible to imagine happening in all but the rarest of occassions - and when/if it did you can be sure someone would pay for it with their job! The supplying plant might only make high spec fuels, but the buyer will blend down to spec before it makes it to retail sale.



You would be surprised...

When I was doing some work at Caltex Lytton around 2000, they had a failure in one of the sections of plant, which meant that they couldn't crack or strip off (memory hazy on exact detail) the excess aromatics in their ULP stream. This meant that both their ULP and PULP was about 100RON for a 1-2 week period.

This makes interesting reading: http://www.aip.com.au/pdf/fuel_%20regs.pdf

I have seen lots of different colours of diesel, including fluoro green.

[rick130]

Dye is commonly used here to differentiate ag (excise rebateable) diesel, and is often added at the distributors.

It's also common practice in the US at least, to add proprietary additives post refinery, and I assumed (dangerous, I know) that the situation was the same here.
The Caltex refinery at Kurnell was overhauled and recommissioned at great expense, what, two years ago ? to refine ULSD, yet BP have had it available here in NSW for years, so their diesel must either come from Brisbane or Singapore.

I have been told by the distributors here in the Hunter and North West that all the fuel for the region comes through BP at Newcastle, so I don't know how the North West get their Caltex with 2% biodiesel, but that's what they advertise.

[Coastie]

When we bought our VW in 2006 we received literature and a warranty statement that we must use only BP fuel in the vehicle or the warranty would be waived. Their explanation was that the TDI required the higher cetane from BP which is 51 against the other suppliers in Australia which is ~49.

Perhaps Ben can explain what this means and if it is true.

I don't know exactly what that means but I presume it is like octane rating.

When we travel in the VW we have followed their requirements for most of the time whilst it's under warranty, however when we put in Alpine diesel in Victoria there was a noticeable difference in performance.

Cheers Pete

[ak]

Have been filling up with BP diesel for ages because, sure I read here on AULRO it's better, anyway on my way home late last week and the only one still open was Caltex filled up and bugger me got 40k more out of a tank. Driving style and pattern has not changed between fills and it has not been serviced between both fills. Filled up again with Caltex today to see if I get the same result. This one's stuffed me cause I was lead to believe BP sold better quality fuel.

OK guys reporting back I just got 55k more out of my second tank of Caltex diesel compared to BP. The extra 15k I believe was after all the crappy BP was maybe flushed out of the system with the second tank. I will never go back to BP again with record fuel prices they can stick it, not to mention the Caltex diesel seems to be 2 cents a litre cheaper too.

This is not a beat up guys and I don't work for Caltex or any other fuel company. Just thought the forum could benfit from my experience in the face of current fuel prices.

Regards Adrian

[isuzurover]

When we bought our VW in 2006 we received literature and a warranty statement that we must use only BP fuel in the vehicle or the warranty would be waived. Their explanation was that the TDI required the higher cetane from BP which is 51 against the other suppliers in Australia which is ~49.

Perhaps Ben can explain what this means and if it is true.

I don't know exactly what that means but I presume it is like octane rating.

When we travel in the VW we have followed their requirements for most of the time whilst it's under warranty, however when we put in Alpine diesel in Victoria there was a noticeable difference in performance.

Cheers Pete

BP (QLD) diesel does indeed have a higher cetane rating AFAIK. Cetane is like the equivalent of octane for diesels. Octane rating is increased by increasing the proportion of aromatics (xylene, toluene, etc), cetane rating by increasing the proportion of parrafins ane olefins.

In about 1994, BP Bulwer Refinery changed their plant, whjich allowed them to reformulate their diesel to have reduced aromatics and increased parrafins/olefins. This was better diesel with a higher cetane ratio, however the lower aromatic content caused lots of rubber components to fail on older diesels and cost BP a lot of money initially.

It seems strange they would have that in their warranty statement though. Is that just a QLD thing? No guarantee that BP diesel is the same in the southern states.

BTW - a small percentage of BIOdiesel actually INCREASES the lubricity of modern ULSD. France and Germany have mandated that all diesel must have 5% Bio. Principally for lubricity reasons rather than environmental.

[Coastie]

It seems strange they would have that in their warranty statement though. Is that just a QLD thing?

It appears to be a deal done with VW and BP as they had an advertising deal and warranty states we must use BP diesel with cetane rating of =>51 or the warranty may be waived.

Still you can't get the one brand everywhere so they would be hard pushed to enforce and probably prove it as well.

[Slunnie]

BTW - a small percentage of BIOdiesel actually INCREASES the lubricity of modern ULSD. France and Germany have mandated that all diesel must have 5% Bio. Principally for lubricity reasons rather than environmental.
The family of a boy in my old boarding house used to own the bio plant near Newcastle, and which apparently supplied many/most of the servos through that area due to carbon somethings or whatever. Anyway, he was also saying that 5% or 10% bio, or something similar was the go.

[JohnE]

OK guys reporting back I just got 55k more out of my second tank of Caltex diesel compared to BP. The extra 15k I believe was after all the crappy BP was maybe flushed out of the system with the second tank. I will never go back to BP again with record fuel prices they can stick it, not to mention the Caltex diesel seems to be 2 cents a litre cheaper too.

This is not a beat up guys and I don't work for Caltex or any other fuel company. Just thought the forum could benfit from my experience in the face of current fuel prices.

Regards Adrian

I said that in another fuel post, I tried it up here and it was woeful for economy caltex and mobil are by far the best around here for my vehicles.

john

[Jay]

Temprature.
When the fuel is cold, it is more dense.
During the day the fuel heats up in the tank in the ground, it expands.
You get less at the pump, late afternoon and early evening.

Also if you fill your tank more slowly you get more fuel in the line and less vapor. (More applicable to Petrol due to it's evaporation rate)

Fill the tank in the morning when it is cooler.

[StephenF10]

Temprature.
When the fuel is cold, it is more dense.
During the day the fuel heats up in the tank in the ground, it expands.
You get less at the pump, late afternoon and early evening.

Also if you fill your tank more slowly you get more fuel in the line and less vapor. (More applicable to Petrol due to it's evaporation rate)

Fill the tank in the morning when it is cooler.

Urban myth. The temperature underground hardly varies from week to week, let alone during the day (I used to read earth thermometers for the BOM).

Stephen.

[Slunnie]

Urban myth. The temperature underground hardly varies from week to week, let alone during the day (I used to read earth thermometers for the BOM).

Stephen.
Bah! What would you know! :lol2:

I guess there is a massive thermal mass, much like the sea temp doesn't move around much day to day.

[waynep]

Just as a matter of interest I filled last week at the Caltex in High St Rd, instead of my normal BP at cnr High St Rd and Stud.
While it's way too early too tell for sure, it seems there might be an improvement in economy - now down to 3/4 tank and done 230km - I've only ever done around 200km at the 3/4 mark using BP.
I'll see how it goes over a couple of tankfuls.