Coal seam gas/LPG/LNG/CNG and the future

[WhiteD3]

With the recent threads on the price of fuel I thought you'd be interested in this podcast from the ABC's Background Briefing program.

It explains where we are at with various sources of gas, the market, why the price for gas is going to increase dramatically, etc. Towards the end there's a bit on compressed NG which is interesting also.

Background Briefing - 8 June 2008 - Banking on gas (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/backgroundbriefing/stories/2008/2264646.htm)

[Redback]

Also shale oil reserves in Australia will soon be re-taped as the Bass Straight oil begins to run out, it has aready been started and i would imagine Newnes will be the place where it begins as the whole area is rich with it and the mining lease is still in effect for that area.

Baz.

[Utemad]

I saw the shale oil and sand oil segment on 60 Minutes last night. Looked pretty interesting.
It is amazing what people will do for oil.
If they said rip up the NP for housing they would kick you out but say rip it up for oil or uranium then sure no worries.

[JDNSW]

Thanks for posting that. Note that the transcript is available on that page if you have a slow connection.

Quite a good discussion, and there are multiple reasons why CNG may well be a major part of Australia's transport future - city air pollution, carbon emissions, large local supplies.

But the discussion seems to skate over some of the problems for fuelling vehicles. Certainly it is technically possible - and as pointed out there are vehicles already using it. Problems I can see:-

1. Price. At present the cost is low, but as pointed out, gas is going to get more expensive, although I think that there will always be a large margin equivalent to the cost of liquefying and shipping between overseas and domestic prices. But if sales of transport fuels are switched from liquid fuels such as petrol, diesel, LPG to CNG, how long do you think it will remain free of excise?

2. Availability. It can be made readily available where there are gas pipelines, but there are not gas pipelines in most of Australia. Bit like mobile phone coverage - covers most of the population, but not most of the country, not even major highways. Away from gas pipelines it looks very hard to manage, although I can see the possibility of supplying cryogenic tanks as LNG - but these are VERY expensive, and could only be economic for major centres.

3. Fuelling times. Think hours. It can be reduced, but it is always going to be very slow compared to liquids.

4. Cost of vehicle installations. Tanks are expensive compared to LPG because of the pressures involved, and also the shape is less flexible - but if sufficiently high pressure is used, may be smaller.

Considering these problems, I wonder if the conversion of methane to synthetic liquid fuels may not be a better approach?

John

[Redback]

Wow what a read, not finished yet, i can't Pod cast so i'm reading the transcript.

Baz.

[WhiteD3]

Wow what a read, not finished yet, i can't Pod cast so i'm reading the transcript.

Baz.

Baz, you can just download the mp3 file and play it on your PC:)

[rick130]

T<snip>

Considering these problems, I wonder if the conversion of methane to synthetic liquid fuels may not be a better approach?

John

Exxon/Mobil have just dumped their GTL refineries they were about to start building in the US, so who knows what is happening there ? :confused:

Only eighteen months ago GTL was touted as the future of lubricating and energy oils......

[Xavie]

I saw that too and have to say the whole thing quite frightened me :eek: The environmental damage in Alberta done by sand oil mining is phenomenal. I hope it never comes to that here...I'd rather go back to a horse n cart I think

Concerned me more then I think I have ever worried about it. I needed to see what it did as I don't think I've ever seen such pics before. I just can't believe people want to now get oil from rock. Why can't people work out something else and stop wanting to tap oil so much.

Well, at least I'm halfway to my goal of saving for an electric vehicle conversion on the series so I'll do what I can for now!

Xav

[JDNSW]

I saw that too and have to say the whole thing quite frightened me :eek: The environmental damage in Alberta done by sand oil mining is phenomenal. I hope it never comes to that here...I'd rather go back to a horse n cart I think

As far as I am aware there is no tar sand in Australia (there are only a few deposits worldwide), so this is unlikely to happen here. Oil shale in Australia is a possibility, probably not at Newnes, as the amount accessible to open cut mining is limited - we would be looking at underground mining, I think, which probably makes it uneconomic.

However, the current oil price has probably made the Curtis Island deposit viable, and it would be open cut.

When looking at the environmental damage done by this or any other mining operation, it should be looked at in the context of, in this case, the whole of the Canadian arctic - and only a minute percentage of the area is affected. But compare the relatively insignificant impact of coalbed methane drainage! And remember that the ultimate problem is not the use of oil - it is too many people!

Also, see Saudi King: 'We will pump more oil' - Middle East, World - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-king-we-will-pump-more-oil-847830.html)

John

[WhiteD3]

I saw that too and have to say the whole thing quite frightened me :eek: The environmental damage in Alberta done by sand oil mining is phenomenal. I hope it never comes to that here...I'd rather go back to a horse n cart I think


Also shale oil reserves in Australia will soon be re-taped as the Bass Straight oil begins to run out, it has aready been started and i would imagine Newnes will be the place where it begins as the whole area is rich with it and the mining lease is still in effect for that area.

I share your concerns. The report does make the point that these fuels will be priced out of the market, as will brown coal power stations, due to carbon pricing and the requirement for countries to reduce their emissions.

[Bushwanderer]

Brown coal power stations are LESS efficient than black coal stations.