Do I need new wheel studs for 130 rims?

[Sleepy]

I read a horror story in one of the pommy LR mags (LRW?) about a collision caused by td5 defender front wheel coming adrift.:(
The author inferred that standard defender wheel studs could not handle the weight and the owner should have upgraded them.
He also spoke of them being too short.

I run 130 rims on my 05 def 90 for off road work, the nuts do up all the way (although not a lot of exposed thread!) Am I running the risk of a "wheel off excursion":eek2:.? What are my alternatives, given I still want to run the alloys around town.

(I only run 235/85 16s)

Thanks

[harry]

it's probably more about torque than the nuts.
i am sure mr lr uses quality nuts and different wheels shouldn't matter- as long as the cone on the nut matches the countersink angle of the wheel.
you state you have thread showing so the stud/nut combination is ok.
check the wheel nut torque as recommended by lr and learn how to tighten them to that when cold then go out and drive around untill the wheels are hot and recheck the torque.

[Reads90]

Blah Blah Blah Bo**cks

Soory but i have used all sorts of wheels on land rovers and not had problem. I even put Alloys on a 71 rangie which even land rover say is a no no. You just have to make sure you check the nuts every now and again


You can get longer studs from Land Rover which you can put on if that makes you feel better. I had a set of 35" simex on a 90 for years with no problems . And they had no thread exposed out side the nut. In fact the were a couple of threads left to turn on the nut (if you understand that ). I was going to get longer nuts but never got round to it and they never caused a problem, even with the crap i gave them as a winch challenge truck

I belive most of the problem with this truck you menton was poor mantaince, and not check wheel nuts and doing normal stuff you do to chack your car. I have had a front wheel fall off and beleve me you know somthing is seriusly wrong before it happens. I was only doing 60kph at the time and the front end droped and hit the deck and i watch as a 750 tyres and rim shot up the road and hit a fench at the end of the road . The front disk dug a grove 40 foot long in the road (whoops). this was in my dads car that had just come out of a dealership ( i was on my way back to the to complain about the noise coming from the front). who had not done the wheel nuts up. I just put the tyre back on and drove off (after i had take a nut off each of the other wheels ). then tried to show my brother ,who was with me , how to shove a 110 up the dealership service managers backside :)

[JDNSW]

Defender wheel studs are thicker and on a wider circle (and hence less load) than any comparable vehicle. In view of this I find it impossible to believe you could put on a wheel heavy enough to break the studs. Only way I can think of that would be likely to break the studs is overtightening.

Too short is possible, but if the nut has all its threads engaged there is no advantage in having them any longer - and it is worth noting that Landrovers had been in production for twenty years before they made a wheel nut that left any thread exposed on the stud.

On the other hand I suspect that as Harry pointed out, the shoulder on the nuts for alloy and steel wheels may be different - and this may well cause the wheels to come loose, although not to break, if the wrong nuts are used.

[rick130]

as the other fella's said, bollocks.

What causes the 130HD rims to come off is insufficient tension of the nut.

Land Rover issued a TSB on this as wheels were coming loose and the revised nut tension is 120-130lb/ft
Have no idea what that is in NM's except lots :D

<edit> OK, it's TSB 60/04/97/EN dated 30/07/97 and it says 163-173NM or 120-130lb/ft

[strangy]

I havnt read the article, but ,agree with previous comments, also it is possible that someone sat on the end of a rattle gun and over torqued the nuts, stretching and ultimately causing them to break under normal loads

[mox]

Once had the nuts on the LH front wheel of my Defender all come half undone but none fell off about 300 km after a mate had repaired a puncture in it. Would not have expected an ex truckie to not do them up tight enough. Probably combination of large M16X1.5 stud threads and short standard Land Rover wheel spanner.

I was in Melbourne when the problem occurred. Sensed something was wrong - probably wheel wobbling. Found it after stopping for the third time to have a look.

Have had rear wheel come off an old Falcon ute. The studs take the load. It damaged the threads on the studs and chewed the stud holes on the rim out large enough to make the rim unusable - before all the nuts were lost and the wheel finally came off.

On classic Range Rover rims, which fit on Defenders, the studs also take all the load. However with the Series, County and Defender rims the flange will still carry much of the load if nuts are loose. The near mishap I had cause minimal damage to the studs and rim even though all five nuts were half off. So it seems having flanges is a good design feature.

[Sleepy]

Thanks All,
Valuable feedback as always!
I learnt from a cape york trip to regularly check wheel nuts - and every other nut/bolt I could get a spanner to :o. I must admit I've never used a torque wrench to do it, just use the "nice and snug" theory - I s'pose it's about time I got one!:)

[JDNSW]

Doesn't everyone stop after twenty minutes into a trip and check hubs and tyres for temperature and wheel nuts for signs of movement? (don't have to actually check the tension, if they are coming loose there will be traces of rust or metal dust coming out of the join between wheel and nut)

John

[Davo]

Doesn't everyone stop after twenty minutes into a trip and check hubs and tyres for temperature and wheel nuts for signs of movement? (don't have to actually check the tension, if they are coming loose there will be traces of rust or metal dust coming out of the join between wheel and nut)

Ummm . . . no. I just never have any trouble with them. Maybe I've been up here too long, but no-one here does that!

I think I will check every time now, though!

As for the aforementioned article, which I haven't read, I think the magazine author should do some research before inferring things in print. It's easy to guess the cause of an accident, and just as easy to get the guess wrong.

[Sleepy]

Just re-read the article in my library (= dunny :) ) LRM July 2007 Page 167 "The Wolf Rescuers" by Mike Manifold.
Wasn't quite as I posted. :angel: It seems I didn't read it too thouroughly as the vehicle concerned was a S2 (not a defender:oops2:) with "wolf type" wheels (which I presume are the 130's or copies).

Quote: " When I had time to look at the land rover in more detail, I could see there were no studs in the right hand wheel. I surmised that these had all been pulled out of their threads, as they were not broken....they were the original studs and nuts, neither of which are suitable..."

I take it the Series 2 studs are smaller diameter than the defender.

Sorry about my poor reporting (I could probably get a job with the aussie press:wasntme:) Perhaps I was in a hurry on that visit to the library :D

[Davo]

Oops . . . oh well. At least you re-read it and told us! :D

Yes, I think up until about '69 the studs were a bit smaller before they changed to the current size. They used to be just threaded into the hub and secured at the back with a weld. Sometimes the nut could get stuck to the stud and the whole thing would come out when undone. That's why I changed to SIII hubs.

The Wolf wheels are a heavier Defender-type wheel as used on the British Army "Wolf", or XD, Land Rover. I think they're a bit thicker and need the later studs.

Anyway, I'd better let you go as I expect Mediawatch will be after you for a comment now! :p

[Sleepy]

The Wolf wheels are a heavier Defender-type wheel as used on the British Army "Wolf", or XD, Land Rover. I think they're a bit thicker and need the later studs.


Looking at the pictures I think it is just a 130 rim or perhaps a Bearmach copy. A lot of people refer to a the 130 rims as wolf wheels (including the guy who sold me mine!) although my understanding is the XD wheels are even more solid. (and heavy!!)

P.S. I have just had a job offer from "Today Tonight":p

[JDNSW]

Yes. All Landrovers 1948 to Series 2a up to about 1970 (change date or chassis number is not specified in the parts book) use 9/16"BSF studs screwed into the hub and secured by staking on the inside. These were replaced initially by pull in serrated studs of the same diameter (rare) and then by M16 studs which are unchanged to the present.

There are several of possible problems, assuming the studs were the original :-

1. (most likely) With these screw in studs, when the nut seizes on the stud, as often happens if they are not lubricated, the stud unscrews from the hub, usually damaging the thread in the hub, as the staked bit on the stud is harder than the cast hub. After this happens a few times there is little thread left in the hub. Not a real problem if it is only one stud out of five, but get this on two or three.......

2. The brake drum had been replaced with one intended for the 16mm studs - this means the stud is not supported by the drum, and it is conceivable, although in my view unlikely, that this could lead to movement of the stud in the thread and eventual wear and failure of the thread.

3. While the standard Defender wheels are suitable for the older wheel nuts, it is possible that the Wolf wheels, never having been designed for use with the older, smaller nuts, may have had holes sufficiently larger that the wheel nuts tightened against the brake drum, leaving the wheel insecure, eventually wearing the holes in the wheel sufficiently for the nuts to fit through the holes.

John

[Blknight.aus]

wrong wheel nut tension pure and simple..

My RAG guide to wheel nut tensions.

old school rims (steel) get olds school tight (100 Ft Lb)
New school rims(ally) get new school tight (100Nm)



its not quite whats in the book but its close enough and if your torque wrench reads perfectly its within the acceptable variation.

[streaky]

When it comes to something as important as wheel nuts I would never advise people to take a chance.
I fitted longer studs to my hubs when I bought the WOLF rims and feel much safer knowing I have a decent number of threads doing their job.
Before I fitted them I noted that only 80% of the stud threads were being utterlised...this means that the full thread of the wheel nuts is not being used.
If you are applying the full amount of torque to a lasser amount of threads then you are running the risk of stretching them.

Don't risk it. Rover fitted them for a good reason IHMO.

[rar110]

I had a rear wheel come off the 110 a couple of weeks after leaving a workshop. It did no damage to the wheel studs. It taught me to keep an eye on that in the future. I now tighten them after a sevice. I am surprised that some need a tweak.

Re the wolf rim wheel studs, why so long? I know when wolf rims are fitted to a County the studs are not long enough to cover the nut thread, and that Defender wheel studs just cover the thread neatly. That seemed sufficient to me.

[JDNSW]

I had a rear wheel come off the 110 a couple of weeks after leaving a workshop. It did no damage to the wheel studs. It taught me to keep an eye on that in the future. I now tighten them after a sevice. I am surprised that some need a tweak.

Re the wolf rim wheel studs, why so long? I know when wolf rims are fitted to a County the studs are not long enough to cover the nut thread, and that Defender wheel studs just cover the thread neatly. That seemed sufficient to me.

Ideally the nuts would be flush with the end of the stud - extra length sticking out not only invites damage from stones and rocks, but the thread accumulated dirt and rust that is likely to damage the thread on the nut when undoing them unless cleaned first.

Worth noting that the double sided 9/16 nuts used on Landrovers up until about 1970 always had about one thread left of the nut - the stud was short by this amount. This meant that the stud thread was completely protected.

John