Lifting the Colonels's 130

[Col.Coleman]

Due to my inbuilt problem of trying to maximise everything while giving up nothing, I find myself stuck once again trying do decide on the best course of action and procrastonating, instead of ripping it out and sticking with whatever decision I make and then defending it to the death as the best and only option.

I have a 130. Sometimes and only sometimes it drags its guts on the ground like a mechanical version of the sausage dog. Lift it you say, but how?

99% of the time I run at or close to empty, so am not wanting to lift by spring rate, as I load the tray as it is now to get the rear to move(swaybar doesn't help, but it is a touring rig). I also don't want shorter springs and give away wheel travel. Having a 130 I have HD springs already so a 2" lift on a normal fender is not the same on mine. I thought I would pull the helper out of the rear, poly bag it and do a spacer, or interchange coils as it is So easy at the back. If the bags DON"T reduce spring compression on articulation I will probably go that way.
Now with a shock in the middle of the spring the front is not that simple. Nor is it as easy to swap coils on a whim. So a more permanent solution is needed. An often quoted fix is Kings but trying to find spring specs for kings is a pita. Plenty of use this part no. but I want to know free length, compressed length AND rate. I thought most probably the Bearmach ones as they retain the original length as well as a 30lb increase over standard HD ones. As long as the new billies i put on will not top out.

Once I get this sorted I will be slotting the balls as I beleive it is a better option for castor correction. It keeps the drive line angle better and also lifts the track rod.

I see hiline has spacers and would like some input on what you guys think would be the best option to give me lift and wheel articulation both empty and loded.

Let the fun begin

CC

[rick130]

The front is easy.

What's the bump stop clearance now ?

You need to use a spring with the same rate as stock and a longer free length.
The closest off the shelf is the LRA/Rangie Spares 'Purple' (Browns Springs make them for LRA) @ 220lb/in (OE is 225lb/in) and nominal 17" free length.
(mine were 17.2" when delivered)

This will give around a 40-50mm lift on a 130 with winch and barwork and is still soft enough to visit the bump stop pads regularly. (mine are nicely polished)

I use TLC 80 Series Koni's (reduced low speed bump) to maximise droop travel although the bottom pins need shortening and the towers raised (N73 OME's may be easier, as they have a better closed length and may not need the towers raised, but I'd cycle the suspension first and allow 20mm bump stop compression at a minimum)

These springs have settled on my vehicle to a round 105mm ATM. When installed five or six years ago they measured around 117-114mm drivers/passenger side between the bump stops.

The front anti-roll bar needs to go if you want maximum droop with this set up too, otherwise the front prop will hit the ARB.
Brake lines also need extending. (it's a good excuse then to fit braided lines and you get the improved pedal that goes with the addition)

Stock Bilstein's with any lift like this will limit droop too much IMO.

The rear I'm still struggling with as most of the time I carry 4-500kg.
Soon to have air bags in the centre then I can play with rear spring rates. Currently running some long travel Monroe's (modified leafy Patrol shocks) but I can't get the low speed rebound I'm after with a simple fluid change (also running higher than OE gas pressure)
Mid and high speed damping is just OK.

I'm not a fan of Kings, as there is history there with some custom 2.25" race coils from yeas ago. Rate was spot on, but they all took strange sets and leaned over like drunken sailors. Not what you want on a race coil spring.

<edit> and I've never bothered castor correcting the thing either, it still self centres and doesn't really wander too much, and I was a fan of winding in massive amounts of castor on the race cars I used to work on, sometimes up to 8* !

[Col.Coleman]

Front is around 90-95mm. Arb bar, spots, no winch yet. Ride comfort is good in the front though when a load is on, feels a tad boaty but that could be transfer from the rear. That's why I though the bearmachs, at 15 odd inches and 255lb and add a winch could be close, though we won't know till a winch goes on. Most probably hydraulic too. I only have 1.5 degree castor so will end up pretty close to zero with any additional lift. On the brakeline thing I notice after a section of full articulation the pedal goes soft. Wondering if it is rotor flex pushing the pistons back are something else. I remember tankslappers used to push the caliper pistons away from the rotors.

Rears are around 125mm. The bilsteins are brand new and would not suit my series so would be reluctant to change at this time. I originally looked at fox but the billies were off the shelf. I could space the mounts though(after measuring excact wheel travel with no springs)

cc

[rick130]

That's sitting fairly tall already, most Defenders are only around 65-70mm stock.

I should run the tape over a customers 130, as Sue's is dead stock with no extras and appears to be sitting a fair bit higher in the front than mine ever did.
Hard part is finding a level pad......

[Col.Coleman]

And that is sitting in the front driveway. IIRC when I measured it down the side of the house with an ever so slight slope to the front left the RF measured 100mm and the LF was 90mm. The mm's posted this morning I measured while it sits in the drive sloping left-right nose down, and still full of crap from yesterday. it has never been loaded much it's whole life and definately has a 10mm drop front left(That annoys the bejezuz out of me)
And it is stock

CC

[rick130]

A<snip>

.....and definately has a 10mm drop front left(That annoys the bejezuz out of me)
And it is stock

CC

That's normal, off side free length is 15.3", near side 14.8", as per land rover spring specifications (http://members.shaw.ca/jbarge/springinfo.html)

[tolinja]

Oh I see its a case of " I want to be like tony" I knew you would be like this once you meet me lol

cheers
General Tony
:p

[Col.Coleman]

No, but you are a close source to measure off as I know what you have done. Looking at the photo's from the weekend our cars actually sit pretty close. Need to measure it.
I have only touched the chassis rails twice playing on coffee rocks on moreton. It is more the dings in my long range tank, the fact I want to fit sill tanks and carry some big loads and not end up looking like a see-sew from a playground.
My head is too far up my own **** to notice and compete with anybody else:p

CC

[tolinja]

No, but you are a close source to measure off as I know what you have done. Looking at the photo's from the weekend our cars actually sit pretty close. Need to measure it.
I have only touched the chassis rails twice playing on coffee rocks on moreton. It is more the dings in my long range tank, the fact I want to fit sill tanks and carry some big loads and not end up looking like a see-sew from a playground.
My head is too far up my own **** to notice and compete with anybody else:p

CC

ok come and measure, whats next rock slider gee when will people stop following me hehe

cheers
tony
and thanks for the weekend mate

[Col.Coleman]

Getting back to my original issue.

I was thinking about what I want to fit, winch and sill tanks, so a lift in spring rate might be on the cards. Currently I should have stock hd springs at 225lbs, so around the 250-255lbs should ride ok with all that stuff fitted. The roof tent will be going on the back, 60litre fridge and slides so maybe replace the dual coils with a single about the same combined rate, or a touch harder 480lbs and get the lengths right. Time to get some weights and do some maths.

CC

[rick130]

Getting back to my original issue.

I was thinking about what I want to fit, winch and sill tanks, so a lift in spring rate might be on the cards. Currently I should have stock hd springs at 225lbs, so around the 250-255lbs should ride ok with all that stuff fitted. The roof tent will be going on the back, 60litre fridge and slides so maybe replace the dual coils with a single about the same combined rate, or a touch harder 480lbs and get the lengths right. Time to get some weights and do some maths.

CC

What do you want to achieve ?
Increased articulation or just a lift ?
If you want to increase articulation/travel, a heavier rate spring won't work as at the modest lift you are after, the higher rate spring will work out at close to the same free length as stock.
If you just want a lift, a higher rate will give you what you're after.

[Col.Coleman]

What do you want to achieve ?
Increased articulation or just a lift ?
If you want to increase articulation/travel, a heavier rate spring won't work as at the modest lift you are after, the higher rate spring will work out at close to the same free length as stock.
If you just want a lift, a higher rate will give you what you're after.

What I want to achieve is to keep the ground clearance I currently have when loaded, if not a little more, Keeping in mind conforming to a no. of parameters. The sway bars have to stay for on road handling, it can't look too stupid, If polyairs won't let it articulate fully, they are not going on.

I did a couple of measurements today.
I had the tray loaded with the gear from the bbq yesterday, not a heap, but enough to let the rear move a bit, and the roof tent perched on top and around 40-50 litres of deisel on board.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/02/1099.jpg
Static measurements were.
All Measurements in mm
Bump Stop Clearances: LF 90 RF 100 LR 120 RR 120
Wheel Travel: LF 505 RF 520 LR 500 RR 500 (keep in mind my tub has flares fitted)(default-measured from bottom of flare in vertical line to drive flange centre)
Spring Length: LF 270 RF 275 LR 340 RR340
Shock Length: LF 535 RF 540 LR 470 RR 470 (not eye-eye, body and piston length)
Prop shaft to Sway bar: 60
As I mentioned earlier, the front left has around 10mm sag:mad:

Then I got out some ramps and wood and set them at 300mm and cross axled the girl, and took some more measurements.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/06/1.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/06/2.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/06/3.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/06/4.jpg
Ramps were on RF and LR
Bump Stop Clearances: LF 150 RF 50 LR 70 RR 160
Wheel Travel: LF 640 RF 375 LR 375 RR 600
Spring Length: LF 350 RF 210 LR 280 RR 410
Space left before being coil bound: RF 100 LR 100
Shock Length: LF 600 RF 470 LR 400 RR 500
Clearance to Guard: RF 150 LR 150(measured on tne continuing arc of travel)
Clearance Tyre to spring/shock tower: RF 45 LR 50

Then I swapped and measured again, and came up with the same measurements, and got a new one.
Prop shaft to sway bar: 40mm
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/06/5.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/06/6.jpg
Now looking at all this I still have 50mm left in the front which some extra weight would soak up, and 70 in the rear. Should not get coil bound either. I still have around 30mm in the front too until the spring hits free length and overextends or lifts, depending on shock stroke length. Was enough to unload the front left to spin a bit without the lockers on. Still have plenty of brake line left.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/06/7.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/06/8.jpg
Working on standard HD springs that I have and that averageing out left and right free lengths at around 15" and 225lbs and where they sit loaded it works out around 430kg on each corner. SOOOO....
255lb springs at the same free length will only give me around 13mm lift, or around 113mm at the bump stops. Might need to look around for 6" diameter coils at 255 around 16" or so. Will put spacers in the sway bar if I have any clearance issues.

Watch this space

CC

[Col.Coleman]

Well here are a couple of options from 2 spring makers
Kings Springs.
KRFR-03
Free Length: 375mm & 385mm
Rate: 225lbs
No. of coils: 6.75
Thickness: 15mm
No good, just replaces what I have now

KRFR-03HD
Free Length: 390mm & 400
Rate: 285lbs
No. of coils: 8
Thickness: 17mm
Bit too stiff I reckon when empty

KRRF-04
Free Length: 395mm & 405mm
Rate: Progressive 240-300lbs

Might think about these as they start where I want but might get too stiff to reach the stops.

Old Man Emu.
Part no. 764
Free Length: 429mm
Rate: 240lbs
No. of coils: 9.5
Thickness: ?

Now the rear
Kings

KLRR-05HD
Free Length: 410mm
Rate: 515lbs
No. of coils: 7
Thickness: 21mm
Gonna be stiff

OME
Part no. 754
Free Length: 444.5mm
Rate: 420lbs
This with polyairs should do the trick. Unless anyone knows if another mob do something close.

Does anyone already run these or have them around to do a comparison or test drive before plopping the cash down? Just want to make sure it will do as expected.

CC

[Treads]

This with polyairs should do the trick. Unless anyone knows if another mob do something close.

Does anyone already run these or have them around to do a comparison or test drive before plopping the cash down? Just want to make sure it will do as expected.


If you go with polyairs, check these out: 61741 Air Lift 1000 Air Spring Kit for Coil Spring Suspensions (http://www.truckspring.com/air-lift-1000-kit-rear-61741.html)

$159.40USD shipped ($170.88AUD)

Sure beats the $350+ they charge here.....

[George130]

You look to have more flex in the rear to mine. My front flexes hapily but the rear doesn't. My beastie will happily take a heavy load with no change though so I will live with limited rear flex.
Sorry can't tell you the load rating on my springs but they are heavy duty. For shocks I am running LTR's

[Col.Coleman]

Here are some options from Dobinsons

Front
Part no. C51-018
Free length R390mm L380mm
Rate 237lbs

Part no. C51-026
Free Length R390mm L380mm
Rate 294lbs

Range rover rears you can fit in the front
Part no. C51-015
Free Length 430mm
Rate 237lbs

Rear
Part no. C51-019
Free length 440mm
Rate 320lbs

Part no. C51-011
Free length 430mm
Rate 400lbs

Part no. C51-009
Free length 410mm
Rate 540lbs:eek:

The range rover rears will give a lovely lift in the front as well as increased articulation, but the rears are continuing to be a hassle to find a longer off the shelf spring with a decent rate.
With the intention of keeping my existing shocks, I might not extend my drop all that much unless I lower the mounts and extend the bump stops. Still thinking about all this and havn't made up my mind yet, but will probably go for 2 sets of springs. I know when a big trip comes up and can change to the big rate springs and swap them back out when I get back.

Keep watching

CC

[rainman]

Yo Colonel! What did you end up going with for the 130?

My 130 came with what I was told was "2 inch lift" but it's seriously high. They are 420mm free length all of the way around, 17mm 8 coil front and 21mm 7 coil + helpers rear and I don't carry a lot of weight.

I've been running King KRFR-03 on the front of my 110 for two years and they are nice, but would obviously be a bit soft for the 130. The HDs are probably going to put me about where I am now so the KRRF-04s look good to me, although they're not in the current catalogue.


James.

[weeds]

I've been running King KRFR-03 on the front of my 110 for two years and they are nice, but would obviously be a bit soft for the 130.


i just installed these suckers in mine.........we must compared bump stop heights, although i have a PTO winch and spare tyre for them to hold up

[rainman]

We must! You might be about the same sort of front end weight as the 130 will be once I get the Warn onto it.

[Col.Coleman]

I decided to stop trying to take my 130 ridiculous places and left it as is.

For now:twisted:

Castor is the stumbling block, as I have run out in standard trim, and lifting will make it worse. I need to slot the balls which means pulling everything apart and not having the vehicle for a while. Then along came 27,000 series vehicles to play with, and what do you know. 3 years later someone revives your thread:D

Now you have me thinking about revisiting it.

I'll elaborate further when I can get away from tap dancing a reply out on the IPhone.

CC

[rainman]

Front is around 90-95mm.

I measured my bump stop distance (on the 130) last night - 150mm :o.


James.

[rick130]

I measured my bump stop distance (on the 130) last night - 150mm :o.


James.

:eek:

How much droop do you have at that ride height ?

and I hope you've slotted your balls :p

[rick130]

Yo Colonel! What did you end up going with for the 130?

My 130 came with what I was told was "2 inch lift" but it's seriously high. They are 420mm free length all of the way around, 17mm 8 coil front and 21mm 7 coil + helpers rear and I don't carry a lot of weight.

I've been running King KRFR-03 on the front of my 110 for two years and they are nice, but would obviously be a bit soft for the 130. The HDs are probably going to put me about where I am now so the KRRF-04s look good to me, although they're not in the current catalogue.


James.

Those fronts must be seriously stiff, my 220lb springs were 17.2" new which gave me a bump stop clearance of 120/117mm drivers/passenger side. (Landy/ARB bull bar, Warn XD9000 winch + TJM sidesteps and bars)

[rainman]

:eek: How much droop do you have at that ride height ?

To be honest, I can't remember. I've only just got it going after a full restoration. I swear it wasn't that high when I bought and started stripping it down. I haven't put the XD9000 back on it yet, but I got my wife to hang off the bullbar (yeah, she's a bit heavier than a Warn winch but I won't say by how much :eek:) and it only dropped 10mm. I certainly don't intend to keep it that high. The caster is terrible.


James.

[Col.Coleman]

I measured my bump stop distance (on the 130) last night - 150mm :o.


James.

Holy Crap Batman,oops Rainman.

May be interested in them though if you don't want them anymore:twisted:

CC

[weeds]

I measured my bump stop distance (on the 130) last night - 150mm :o.


James.

115mm drivers side
125mm passenger side

[rainman]

May be interested in them though if you don't want them anymore:twisted:

:) I was thinking of suggesting swapping, even if it's just temporarily. Your's might be a tad low for me, but I'm probably carrying less weight generally, so........


115mm drivers side
125mm passenger side

Wow. That's with KRFR-03s and all the accessories?! I'm getting the 110 back from MR this afternoon so I'll measure it.

A couple of pics:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/12/353.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2011/12/354.jpg

The 110 (on the right of the pic) has the King KRFR03 fronts:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/756.jpg

[Col.Coleman]

:) I was thinking of suggesting swapping, even if it's just temporarily. Your's might be a tad low for me, but I'm probably carrying less weight generally, so........





Can do. I don't drive it as much lately, so the castor thing won't bother me. Be interesting to feel the difference.

rear looks high too. What's in there?

I also have some rubber 1 inch inserts around here too I haven't fitted yet.

CC

[rainman]

rear looks high too. What's in there?

They are 420mm free length, 21mm wire, 7 coils. I don't know what rate that equates to because I can't for the life of me find the diameter (and I didn't measure it last night). The helper springs are in there too but they're hardly even pre-loaded with no weight on the tray. Without the tray on (about 150kg) they are loose.

I have another set that are 400mm free length, 21mm wire, and 7 coil so I'm thinking of trying them out without the helpers. I figure that's going to drop it about an inch without any weight, and more loaded because of the lack of helpers. If I'm going to be carrying a lot I can whack the helpers in.


James.

[uninformed]

I measured my bump stop distance (on the 130) last night - 150mm :o.


James.

and I bet you feel every mm of that(over the smallest of bumps)

[lambrover]

I have 140mm front bump clearance and the ride is way better than standard.

Taper ground coils(dobinsons) 3 inch, they are very tall free lenght so won't unseat.

My coils are recycled from my old county, as I only had them in there for 3 months before I sold it.

[uninformed]

I have 140mm front bump clearance and the ride is way better than standard.

Taper ground coils(dobinsons) 3 inch, they are very tall free lenght so won't unseat.

My coils are recycled from my old county, as I only had them in there for 3 months before I sold it.


whilst good quality coils/shocks, spring rate and shock valving will play a roll, you cant change the laws of physics....think about the tyre contact patch in relation to the chassis mount of radius arm.....

for sure a early RRC would ride better than your rig ;)

[Col.Coleman]

Spring swap has been done.

Have road tested the 130 with Rainman's springs and they seem fine to me at this stage. Flexed it up and drove a couple of paddocks, plus some highway. I'm happy with these springs, though not alot of extra lift in the rear.

I am used to the ride in a series though.

CC

[Sitec]

Rainman, that 130 of yours looks good at that height! Look even better with 285's! You are all going to cringe with my lift, but I was fed up with the low to the left sagging look, so I blocked it up at the front to the height I wanted (which ended up being nearly 3"). I made up a spacer under the coil plate, 75mm at front, 65mm at rear, added 70mm to the bump stops and 50mm to the A.R.B mounts, and it works fine. Has same travel as original which is fine for what I do yet now sits level and makes the 285's look right!

I've tried to put the photo up but it tells me I have it on another post (Chasing photos of defenders with 265 75 16 km2's). Bla bla! Over computers. I know it's there but I want it here! Grrrr!

[rainman]

Thanks sitec, I do agree with you that it would look good with 285s/33s on it, but I just don't need them. I actually have a set that I'm going to sell. I don't do any serious offroad so I have to be realistic about it :(.

With Colonel's springs installed (rear helpers still in), I've dropped about 19mm in the rear and 50mm in the front, giving average bumpstop heights of about 148mm rear and 98mm front. I'm happy with the rear but think I'd probably need about another 20-25mm in the front, especially considering that I haven't put the winch, driving lights, light bar with spots, etc, etc on yet. I've only driven down my street and back so far but initial indications are that the rate is "nice". More testing required :cool:.

Pics below are unfortunately taken on a slight downward slope to the rear.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/01/553.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/46.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/364.jpg

James.