D-gas versus Dieselgas

[Wilbur]

Hi all,

Does anyone have any opinion on the relative merits of these two gas fumigation systems?

As I understand it, the Dieselgas Australia system is all electronic with lots of sensors to set up the appropriate quantity of gas, while the D-gas system is entirely manual and doesn't seem to have any way of adjusting the gas flow to suit throttle opening, speed etc.

Now I don't really like lots of electronics in vehicles, but I just wonder if the D-gas system works properly without all the inputs that the dieselgas system has?

I would be very grateful for opinions, as I plan to have one fitted next week.

Cheers all,

[p38arover]

Diesel Gas Australia or Diesel Gas Technologies? The latter is more sophisticated.

[DeeJay]

My understanding is that the D-Gas system is designed to deliver more power with marginal mileage improvements ie what diesel is substituted by cheaper LPG. They offer warranties on engine failures, so it should be reliable.
From what I've read of the Dieselgas it wrings more power and economy which- IMHO is asking just a bit much but thats only an opinion.
But I'm interested in other feedback, coz my knowledge is purely based on internet searches.
One other point is the D-Gas system will provide highest economy on engines running 2500 constant RPM - that is why Perth-Melb-Sydney trucks love that system possibly as good as Dieselgas economy in that application. The better economy goes downhill with load & speed variations. I think the D-Gas website is very honest.
Good luck
David

[Disco_owner]

Wilbur;

Some info I found on the web:

D-GAS system:

LPG vapour fuel is injected into the engine's intake manifold, homogeneously mixing to the engine's intake of atmospheric air. The liquid diesel fuel is injected into the cylinders as before.


Under the compression cycle, the air mixed with the LPG fuel heats to hotter temperatures due to the alternate fuel's higher 'heat of vaporization'. The increased temperatures during the compression cause the diesel fuel to stay in a gaseous state and forces more droplets of diesel
fuel to vaporize and volatize. Compression of the air/fuel mixtures never reaches auto-ignition, so pre-ignition is not a concern.

Ignition, as previously, is accomplished automatically as diesel fuel is injected into the engine.
In addition to the increased vaporisation and pre-combustion temperatures, the gaseous fuel, due
to its 'stoichometric flame speed' of 0.43 of LPG (propane), higher volatility and higher auto-ignition
temperature (high octane), causes a quicker and more spontaneous combustion resulting in increased power
and economy without engine modification.

The power increases are due in part to the increase in volumetric efficiency from the requirement for less oxygen in the air/fuel/alternate fuel mixture charge and maintains the engine's existing stoichometric ratios. Although the gaseous alternate fuel should increase the temperature of combustion of the fuel mixture over dedicated liquid fuel combustion, this has not been measurable and is believed to be negligible.

Since the diesel liquid fuel is virtually vaporised and volatilised pre-combustion, and since combustion is more rapid and complete, there is one explosion consuming the fuel and releasing its energy.
No 'combustion waves'. An audible quieting of the diesel knock can be verified with a stethoscope.
Since there are no additional explosions of the combustion wave, excess heat is not generated in after waves of combustion, reducing the formation of NOx and the engine's cooling system is not
strained dissipating the excess heat. Cooling system temperatures remain as before, because of thermostats, electronic cooling fans, etc. Engine oil temperatures can decrease by up to 20 degrees Celsius with the D-GAS system in operation. Exhaust with 'lower' hydrocarbons and NOx emissions is
released to the atmosphere.

As virtually no fuel is present in the exhaust gas, there is no after burn in the exhaust. Exhaust temperatures can decrease on vehicles fitted with the D-GAS system and an increased vapour content of the exhaust is observable, a further indication of more efficient combustion.

Additionally, the properties of the LPG gaseous fuel dissolves carbon and tar deposits in the combustion chamber after a period of operation. Combustion chamber deposits are responsible for significant increases in emission, heat generation and inefficient combustion. Dual fuel system operation cleans the combustion chamber even in older or high mileage vehicles and returns them to a cleaner more efficient condition.

Fuel savings are generated because the combustion is more complete with less energy being wasted to heat or turned into harmful emissions. Less liquid diesel fuel is required to maintain the same operation levels, yet torque is increased, providing more satisfactory engine performance, improved acceleration, and greater load hauling capabilities. In some manual fuel injection engines, a slight adjustment can be made to reduce the diesel liquid fuel to the engine.


Diesel Gas System:


High-pressure liquid petroleum gas (LPG) is converted to a low-pressure (just above atmospheric)
useable gas. The gas passes through a solenoid valve (or stepper motor) which is controlled by outputs
from the system’s computerised processor measuring precisely the quantity of gas required. This metered
amount of vapour travels through a hose into the vehicle air intake system and subsequently into the inlet
manifold as a mixture of air and gas.

The computer module (processor) controls the flow of gas optimising performance and ensuring safety. Manifold
pressure (via a MAP sensor) or throttle position (via a throttle position sensor) and engine speed are monitored.
The module then adjusts the gas flow depending on engine load and driver demand. The amount of gas injected
(or the ‘gas map’) is completely (and only) programmable by a laptop computer. This allows a large degree of
flexibility to adjust the system to suit your requirements.

The system does not allow LPG into the engine at idle and is programmed to limit the amount of gas introduced
at maximum load to prevent over-fuelling. The system shuts off gas flow when the brakes are applied or the driver’s
foot comes off the accelerator.
The system can be switched on and off (if ever necessary) via a dash mounted switch. If gas is unavailable or you
run out before a service station, it is not necessary to switch the system off. Instead you will notice a decrease
in performance as the gas runs out.

[Wilbur]

Thanks all for the info and ideas.

Ron, I wasn't thinking specifically of Dieselgas Australia or Dieselgas Technologies (I didn't realise there were two) but mostly I was interested in the benefits of the electronic ECU controlled type over the fully manual type.

Thanks Disco-owner and DeeJay for the run-down.

Has anyone here tried the manual D-gas system?

Cheers,

[p38arover]

I notice the DieselGas Technologies/Hunter Gas Sequent II system installs an exhaust gas temperature probe into the exhaust.

[Xavie]

I have been looking in to it also and Ron gave me some good info in another thread- thanks again Ron. The only thing I'd say is if you are interested ring as soon as you can because it is a 10+ week wait. The wait seems to be because of the gas tank and not having many around.

After looking in to it I decided to go with D.G. technologies at Kingswood (western Sydney).

They are hopeless on email and phone but they all seem to be so have your questions ready.

Xav

[Wilbur]

Hi all,

I have been told that D-gas have two versions, one for non-turbos that have throttle position sensors, temp sensors etc etc, and another for turbo engines that uses only manifold pressure to control the amount of gas injected.

I have mixed feelings. I am not a great fan of too much electronics in cars, but I wonder how effective that simple manual system would be? Has anyone had experience with the non-electronic systems, or any hearsay reports?

Cheers,

Paul

[p38arover]

When it comes to increasing power in a diesel with LPG, I'd want as much sensor information as possible to avoid damage to the engine. That's why I mentioned the EGT (see also LRHybrid100's thread on EGT http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/59354-d110-td5-egt-gauge-temps.html).

I don't know if the DGT system displays EGT to the driver, it may only go to the control software and be visible on the programming software. I can ask, I'm going over to DGT this arvo.

[Iain_B]

I signed up for a D-Gas system this afternoon - $3800 fitted. I have to wait until 9th August - LPG tanks are in short supply. So after the $2000 rebate, it will cost me around $1800. Using the current price of diesel and gas and my present fuel consumption with the expected 20% better fuel economy, it will pay for itself in less than 70,000km - which is less than two years for me. Fine for me as I plan on keeping the car for a long time anyway.

[Wilbur]

I signed up for a D-Gas system this afternoon - $3800 fitted. I have to wait until 9th August - LPG tanks are in short supply. So after the $2000 rebate, it will cost me around $1800. Using the current price of diesel and gas and my present fuel consumption with the expected 20% better fuel economy, it will pay for itself in less than 70,000km - which is less than two years for me. Fine for me as I plan on keeping the car for a long time anyway.

Are you getting the ECU controlled electronic model, or the manual one? I was told that for turbo engines, there were no sensors except for the MAP. Is your car a TD5?

Cheers,

[Iain_B]

I've got a 300Tdi -

TheD-Gas system is a much simpler system than the ECU controlled one. Just injects the gas according to boost pressure, so you have to choose a rev range you normal run at and tune if to that - for me that 2000-2400rpm. If you want more power, go with a bigger jet, if you want better economy, use a smaller jet. From what I've read, it may take one or two jet changes to get it right for what I want.

On a simple mechanical tdi motor, it's all I think you need, if I had a chipped Td5 and looking for max power, I might have gone with the other ECU systems, but they are more than $1700 more - the fuel savings will take much long to pay for the unit to pay for itself.

[spitfire]

HI ALL,
HAD A SEQUENT 2 SYSTEM FITTED TO MY 02 DISCO TD5 AUTO A MONTH AGO AT ALL 4X4 NEWCASTLE,WHAT A GREAT INSTALLATION ,VERY NEAT AND YOU CAN SEE WHERE YOUR AND THE GOVT. MONEY WENT,THERE IS A LOT OF GEAR IN THIS SYSTEM .
DUE TO GO IN FOR THE FINAL TUNE UP OF THE LPG RATIO AS AT THE MOMENT USING A BIT MORE GAS THAN IT SHOULD,
REHASHED THE EGR VALVE SETUP REMOVED ALL THE INTERNALS AND EXTERNAL BITS FROM THE HOUSING THEN MACHINED A STEEL PIPE TO FIT INSIDE THE HOUSING,PRESSED IT IN WITH SEALANT APPLIED,THIS CLOSES ALL THE HOLES THEN FITTED A 3mm BLANK PLATE TO THE INLET OF THE HEAT EXCHANGER ,ALL'S WELL,COST ZERO $
CHEERS
SPITTY

[Dazzler001]

HI,

It should have beena couple of months now since your install.

I purchased a TD5 recently with the same itention for a conversion.

Can you share with us which one you chose and how it is doing?
Are you happy with the conversion?
Where is the LPG tank in a Disco, and how often do you fill it up?

Do you get improved fuel efficiency as well?

Thanks !

Dazzler

[Wilbur]

HI,

It should have beena couple of months now since your install.

I purchased a TD5 recently with the same itention for a conversion.

Can you share with us which one you chose and how it is doing?
Are you happy with the conversion?

Do you get improved fuel efficiency as well?

Thanks !

Dazzler

Hi,

Mine is a 300tdi and I went for the D-gas system. Put quite simply, it doesn't work, and I expect to go to court to get a refund. D-gas on their website say they offer a money back guarantee but when put to the test they refuse.

I have been farting around for five months now. My trouble is that I have an engineering background so I don't rely on subjective results - I measure things. There is no measurable improvement in performance on the road. At partial throttle it DOES help to turn on the gas. At full throttle, there is no measurable benefit.

I am now on the third control box. The first one didn't work at all, the second one worked for a day. This one works in that it does inject gas, but the percentage gas usage is all over the place. I have just returned from a months holiday and tested the system over lots of kilometres. The gas used varied from 8.5% to around 25%. I am quite sure it sometimes peaked a lot higher because occasionally I thought the engine knock increased substantially.

Half way through the trip I let the gas run out, and it felt a much happier engine for the rest of the trip. That is subjective of course.

Don't be fooled by the fact that the gas does help at partial throttle opening. It certainly makes the car feel a little more lively because you don't press the throttle down so far. What really counts is what it does at full throttle. On mine it does nothing.

Useage of diesel fuel was marginally improved, though that could be due to changing winds and driving conditions. However, the total COST was higher during the 3,000 k's with gas than the remaining 5,000 k's without.

All in all, I feel very ripped off. I have spent 42 hours of my own time trying to get this sytem working, following instructions form both D-gas and the installer. On my vehicle, it is a complete dud.

I look forward to hearing other results - preferably non-subjective ones. Have any of you done any real-world full throttle perfomance testing?

Cheers all,

Paul

[Iain_B]

I don't have anything subjective, but the on mine, I used about the same amount of total fuel (diesel + gas) as before, except the gas was cheaper, and I do notice and make use of the extra power. There is a steep hill on the freeway I drive up every night - without gas - I can just hold 100kph foot flat to the floor, with the gas, I have to back off a bit or I accelerate on the hill. I can't say I have tested it on a long run, but I was not as impressed by the fuel consumption as what had hoped, but there was definitely more power according to my "seat of the pants" dyno.

That was about 2 months ago - the clutch broke on my car and i decided to fit and automatic transmission - it has been quite a mission as I did not have all the parts, at first, and I've kind of lost interest for now. Probably because I bought an Audi B5 S4 - 2.7lt twin turbo and I must admit is is much more fun to drive than a diesel discover. Cheaper to run - cost $60 per week to run vs the $70 on the diesel+gas and 0-100 in 5 seconds vs 15 minutes:)

[Wilbur]

I don't have anything subjective, but the on mine, I used about the same amount of total fuel (diesel + gas) as before, except the gas was cheaper, and I do notice and make use of the extra power. There is a steep hill on the freeway I drive up every night - without gas - I can just hold 100kph foot flat to the floor, with the gas, I have to back off a bit or I accelerate on the hill. I can't say I have tested it on a long run, but I was not as impressed by the fuel consumption as what had hoped, but there was definitely more power according to my "seat of the pants" dyno.


Interesting Iain, thanks for the reply. The seat-of-the-pants dyno is fine - but did you feel it while on full throttle? There are many reasons why a particular hill might stop you at 100KPH one day and 120KPH the next day.

I felt the seat-of-pants benefit on mine too when accelerating on 3/4 throttle. Flicking it on and off while on full throttle I could feel nothing - that is why I did lots of road testing with GPS speedo and stop watch.

What system did you have installed? Is your Disco a 300tdi? If there is a system that really works (on a 300tdi) I will try again. Meanwhile, I have since spoken to two other chaps with the same system I fitted - they report exactly the same lack of real benefit. We might be getting a bit of a class action going. We all just want our money back, like they promise on their website. Then maybe we can afford a working system.

Cheers,

Paul

[PAT303]

I just had D/gas fitted but it is to early to say anything as I've only used one tank but I have noticed my engine picks up when the gas is supplied and it rev's harder through the gears.The bloke that fitted it has three different sized jets to try .030-.040-.050thou but the .040 seems good as fitted.I have found my diesel usaged hasn't gone down but the top speed has gone up,an indicated 135km/hr and thats on 255/85 tyres so I would have to say that I can't explain why yours doesn't work.It is booked in next week for a dyno run so stay posted.I have also found my temp gauge falls the thickness of the needle with gas running. Pat

[Wilbur]

I just had D/gas fitted but it is to early to say anything as I've only used one tank but I have noticed my engine picks up when the gas is supplied and it rev's harder through the gears.The bloke that fitted it has three different sized jets to try .030-.040-.050thou but the .040 seems good as fitted.I have found my diesel usaged hasn't gone down but the top speed has gone up,an indicated 135km/hr and thats on 255/85 tyres so I would have to say that I can't explain why yours doesn't work.It is booked in next week for a dyno run so stay posted.I have also found my temp gauge falls the thickness of the needle with gas running. Pat

Thanks Pat, I will be very interested in your next report. The dyno is really the only way to evaluate the system rigorously, although my stop-watch/GPS method is not too bad.

I started with a 50 jet, and the engine knock increased dramatically. It sounded like a bunch of loose ball barings in the combustion chamber. With a 45 jet the knock was less noticeable but still there. Finally I did a lot of testing with a 20 jet, which returned a gas ratio of between 8.5% and 25%. Maybe my third box is also a dud......I really don't know, I am just fed up with the whole deal.

Paul

[PAT303]

Sounds like you need to put a rocket up the blokes that did it.We tried the 50thou jet first and it knocked very badly too,mine likes the 40.I drove it last night to get milk,turning it on and off there is no mistake the engine pulls harder on gas,it's not a huge amount,it just feels like the power it availible earlier in the rev range. Pat

[Wilbur]

Sounds like you need to put a rocket up the blokes that did it.We tried the 50thou jet first and it knocked very badly too,mine likes the 40.I drove it last night to get milk,turning it on and off there is no mistake the engine pulls harder on gas,it's not a huge amount,it just feels like the power it availible earlier in the rev range. Pat

Pat,

I have been putting a rocket up D-gas, the original installer, and received a lot of help from a second installer. Still nothing after 5 months. D-gas did offer to look at it if I took the car to Sydney - a days drive away.

Are you sure that you get that feeling of extra power when you are at full throttle?

By the way, watch out for that knocking. It may be urelated, but since having that knock, my car uses a litre of oil avery 2,500 k's. Before that, I never topped up the oil between services. Rgds, Paul

[markb]

I have the Deisel gas Australia system and happy with it. I definatley change gears less with the gas on and have a higher top speed. My total fuel consumption is unchanged at just over 10l per 100km. My gas consumption is always between 18-20% of total. I have a 300tdi in an 87 Rangie with 265/75R16. Haven't had it dynoed but there is a long hill just before my house which I can drive flat out without the gas but with the gas I have to back off. Also much better when towing a trailer. I just wish it helped a bit more of idle.

[hook]

Pat,

By the way, watch out for that knocking. It may be urelated, but since having that knock, my car uses a litre of oil avery 2,500 k's. Before that, I never topped up the oil between services. Rgds, Paul

Just a question,

is this because all the diesel is getting burnt, with the gas, and not leeking into the oil.

As I don't use any oil, but have got an oil leek on the stump (std 300 Tdi) :(So I think with my oil leek, I must be getting deisel (soot) into the oil, as I don't use much oil in 10k????

I would like to get gas, sounding like not worth getting?:mad:

[Wilbur]

Just a question,

is this because all the diesel is getting burnt, with the gas, and not leeking into the oil.

As I don't use any oil, but have got an oil leek on the stump (std 300 Tdi) :(So I think with my oil leek, I must be getting deisel (soot) into the oil, as I don't use much oil in 10k????

I would like to get gas, sounding like not worth getting?:mad:

Interesting question Hook, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe diesel had been auto-topping up the oil, but it did still use oil after I stopped using the gas.

For your car, remember a little oil goes a LONGGG way. Even a small leak can make it seem that your sump should be empty very soon. I prefer to believe that your wonderful 300tdi engine simply doesn't burn oil!

It may be worth getting gas, maybe I have just been unlucky, or chose the wrong system. Markb seems to get results with a different type of system, really I prefer testing with at least a stop-watch. There are just too many variables when tesing by feel.
Paul

[Wilbur]

Hi all,

I would greatly value any comments on this idea.

The D-gas system injects gas in proportion to the manifold pressure generated by the turbo. I find that I do get a (small) improvement in performance at partial throttle but not at full throttle.

I am wondering if maybe the manifold pressure doesn't increase after about 2/3rds throttle, so that choosing a jet that doesn't over-gas at partial throttle will result in insufficient gas at full throttle?

Alternatively, with a jet chosen for good operation at full throttle it would be over-gassing and possibly damaging the engine at partial throttle. The worry is that damage can be done before the noise is audible. (This is from the D-gas website).

This may explain why Markb seems to be getting better results. I think the Diesel-gas Australia system has lots of sensors to control gas flow rather than just relying on manifold pressure.

Any comments please?

Thanks,

Paul

[isuzurover]

Hi all,

I would greatly value any comments on this idea.

The D-gas system injects gas in proportion to the manifold pressure generated by the turbo. I find that I do get a (small) improvement in performance at partial throttle but not at full throttle.

I am wondering if maybe the manifold pressure doesn't increase after about 2/3rds throttle, so that choosing a jet that doesn't over-gas at partial throttle will result in insufficient gas at full throttle?

Alternatively, with a jet chosen for good operation at full throttle it would be over-gassing and possibly damaging the engine at partial throttle. The worry is that damage can be done before the noise is audible. (This is from the D-gas website).

This may explain why Markb seems to be getting better results. I think the Diesel-gas Australia system has lots of sensors to control gas flow rather than just relying on manifold pressure.

Any comments please?

Thanks,

Paul

That would be very easy to measure to confirm your theory (or otherwise). Just fit a boost guage/manometer, and measure boost as a function of throttle position.

If they inject based on boost pressure, boost would be highest when you back off the accelerator (just before the wastegate opens) - so there would be a noticeable lag there???

[ATH]

I've had a D-Gas system on my 300Tdi Defender for around 6 months or so and wouldn't bother with it again.
Slight difference in power but nowhere near what I was led to believe and was hoping for when pulling the camper.
Certainly not enough to improve pulling power up hills which is what I really wanted.
No discernable difference in oil cleanliness either although proper lab. testing may show it to be cleaner.
Overall I don't think it was worth the 4K it cost (3K rebate in WA) and I really really hate the damn tank hanging down under the drivers side!:mad:
Cheers.
Alan.

[Xavie]

I want to give a huge thanks for this thread. I was considering either selling the disco or doing the d-gas and an interstate buyer pulled out of the sale so was just about to book in to get diesel gas done but now my mind is made up for sure. For the 2k out of pocket I would of had pretty high expectations so I'm so pleased to of seen this.

Thanks again. But sorry for all the people who ahve fitted it and were not happy with the system.

[PAT303]

Paul were are the boost valve and gas feed valve?.Are they reading correctly?.I think the reason you aren't getting power is because you aren't feeding it enough gas.I would change to a 40thou jet.My defender is booked in to be dynoed on the 8th,I also am getting it tuned in both diesel and gas to get it right.Two power runs and a tune for $250.I will post up results but I wonder if a good tune is what most of these vehicles need,I had the disco done when I fitted the gas,it turned it right around. Pat

[Wilbur]

I've had a D-Gas system on my 300Tdi Defender for around 6 months or so and wouldn't bother with it again.
Slight difference in power but nowhere near what I was led to believe and was hoping for when pulling the camper.
Certainly not enough to improve pulling power up hills which is what I really wanted.
No discernable difference in oil cleanliness either although proper lab. testing may show it to be cleaner.
Overall I don't think it was worth the 4K it cost (3K rebate in WA) and I really really hate the damn tank hanging down under the drivers side!:mad:
Cheers.
Alan.
Thanks Alan, I am really glad it's not just my Defender that doesn't like gas. If I have to go to court to get a refund, I will make sure there is plenty of press coverage.

Cheers,

Paul

[Wilbur]

Paul were are the boost valve and gas feed valve?.Are they reading correctly?.I think the reason you aren't getting power is because you aren't feeding it enough gas.I would change to a 40thou jet.My defender is booked in to be dynoed on the 8th,I also am getting it tuned in both diesel and gas to get it right.Two power runs and a tune for $250.I will post up results but I wonder if a good tune is what most of these vehicles need,I had the disco done when I fitted the gas,it turned it right around. Pat

Pat, what worries me is the huge variation in percentage gas use. Even if it could be tuned to give a performance boost, I would constantly be worried about it over-gassing and destroying the engine.

The 300tdi is a glorious engine, and mine has only done 129,000 k's. It is quiet, smooth and economical with excellent performance for a 2.5 litre. My camperback is heavy though with 2 spares, 140 litres of fuel, 120, litres of water etc., and a bit more power would be wonderful, but not if there is a risk of damaging the engine. The way the gas usage varies, I wouldn't trust it an inch.

Cheers,

Paul

[Wilbur]

Paul were are the boost valve and gas feed valve?.Are they reading correctly?.I think the reason you aren't getting power is because you aren't feeding it enough gas.I would change to a 40thou jet.My defender is booked in to be dynoed on the 8th,I also am getting it tuned in both diesel and gas to get it right.Two power runs and a tune for $250.I will post up results but I wonder if a good tune is what most of these vehicles need,I had the disco done when I fitted the gas,it turned it right around. Pat

Oh, and yes Pat, I did extensively test with both 45 and 40 jets. With the 45 it still made the engine noisy, and may have done with the 40 - very hard to be certain above the odd other Land Rover noise! As they say on the D-gas website, you can be doing damage before you hear the knock so I wouldn't regard the 40 as safe given the knock was clearly audible with a 45. Besides, even with the 45 there was really very little improvement at full throttle. Nothing I could measure with the stop watch, but I fancied I could feel a slight difference when I turned the gas on.
Cheers, Paul

[isuzurover]

Pat, what worries me is the huge variation in percentage gas use. Even if it could be tuned to give a performance boost, I would constantly be worried about it over-gassing and destroying the engine.

The 300tdi is a glorious engine, and mine has only done 129,000 k's. It is quiet, smooth and economical with excellent performance for a 2.5 litre. My camperback is heavy though with 2 spares, 140 litres of fuel, 120, litres of water etc., and a bit more power would be wonderful, but not if there is a risk of damaging the engine. The way the gas usage varies, I wouldn't trust it an inch.

Cheers,

Paul

Do you have an EGT fitted???

[Wilbur]

Do you have an EGT fitted???

Hi, Yes, I do, but it is an analog one so very small differences may not be noticed. As far as I could tell, there was no temperature difference between gas on/gas off at full throttle up the same hill starting at the same landmark on the bottom at 90KPH in fourth gear.
Cheers, Paul

[PAT303]

Wilbur I can't hear any knocking at all in my engine at any stage.Why I asked about the valves is that if the boost valve is not reading the correct boost that could be the reason behind the inconsistant gas usage.I find it hard to believe that three control boxes have been faulty.My boost valve is tapped into the ridgid intercooler pipe and the feed valve is into the intercooler outlet flange.Personally I would give it a dyno tune and find out what is coming out the pipe. Pat

[Iain_B]

All I can say is that I drove the same hill everyday for 6 months without the gas - and I had to stay in the slow lane and hope no one pulled out in front of me just to hold 100kph. With the gas - I didn't need my foot flat to hold 100kph ( or higher) . The other hill is just out my driveway - without gas, it's first gear all the way foot flat, with gas I can change up to second 3/4 of the way up.

I have a 300Tdi with 320,000km on it and run 265/75x16 tyres. Like I said I can't say I'm entirely happy with the fuel consumption claim of saving 20% or more , it seems to substitute diesel for gas so cost were down.

Iain









Interesting Iain, thanks for the reply. The seat-of-the-pants dyno is fine - but did you feel it while on full throttle? There are many reasons why a particular hill might stop you at 100KPH one day and 120KPH the next day.

l

[jx2mad]

I have dieselgas fitted to my 300tdi Defender and I am amazed at the difference it has made. Avery good increase in usable power, Ease of highway cruising coupled to a diesel use of better than 8l/100k highway running and around 8l/100k city driving. I couldn't be happier.

[Wilbur]

I have dieselgas fitted to my 300tdi Defender and I am amazed at the difference it has made. Avery good increase in usable power, Ease of highway cruising coupled to a diesel use of better than 8l/100k highway running and around 8l/100k city driving. I couldn't be happier.

Wow, I would kill for results like that! Which gas system do you have, and where was it installed? Cheers, Paul

[Wilbur]

Wilbur I can't hear any knocking at all in my engine at any stage.Why I asked about the valves is that if the boost valve is not reading the correct boost that could be the reason behind the inconsistant gas usage.I find it hard to believe that three control boxes have been faulty.My boost valve is tapped into the ridgid intercooler pipe and the feed valve is into the intercooler outlet flange.Personally I would give it a dyno tune and find out what is coming out the pipe. Pat

Hi Pat,

D-gas did finally admit they had a problem with a seal of some type that was made of the wrong material and prevented gas flow through the solenoid in the control box. The first two boxes had the duff seal material, but they didn't admit there was a problem until they had made me do lots of tests and general farting around.

I am just over it now and just want it removed. I am sick of carrying around dead weight.

Cheers,

Paul

[PAT303]

Paul You have it set up I would get it to work.Mate it is a simple system,do some trouble shooting as to boost pressure and gas jet size.Mine works well,so should yours. Pat

[Wilbur]

Paul You have it set up I would get it to work.Mate it is a simple system,do some trouble shooting as to boost pressure and gas jet size.Mine works well,so should yours. Pat

Pat, I have tried practically everything over the last five months. A local D-gas installer fitted cabin gauges for manifold pressure and gas pressure and pronounced the results perfect. I have tested for over a thousand kilometres with every jet between 20 and 50. I have purged and re-filled the gas tank. I have adjusted the hob switch. The gas injection point has been moved from the manifold to the outlet of the intercooler. I have exhausted everything that D-gas, the orginal installer and the local installer can suggest.

Pat, I have said to myself many times what you advise "It is installed now, get it working" but there is just nothing left to try, unless the third control box is also duff. If the third box is duff, I just don't want such an unreliable system that can potentially blow my engine.

Thanks anyway though for the advice.

Cheers,

Paul

[PAT303]

You've got me there Paul.Does the engine run,powerwise OK without the gas?.From what I have read on this forum,JC is a big advocate for it is to run more diesel through them and that is what I'm going to do when the dyno tune gets done.The bloke that runs ultra tune in town also does a lot of LR dealer work as we don't have one and I found him very switched on with LR motors so for me giving him free reign to tune the engine right,it's still factory set from 10 years ago and running gas I think I will be happy with the result.There is nothing left for you to check but I can't understand why your engine doesn't like gas.I wish I could be of more help. Pat

[Wilbur]

You've got me there Paul.Does the engine run,powerwise OK without the gas?.From what I have read on this forum,JC is a big advocate for it is to run more diesel through them and that is what I'm going to do when the dyno tune gets done.The bloke that runs ultra tune in town also does a lot of LR dealer work as we don't have one and I found him very switched on with LR motors so for me giving him free reign to tune the engine right,it's still factory set from 10 years ago and running gas I think I will be happy with the result.There is nothing left for you to check but I can't understand why your engine doesn't like gas.I wish I could be of more help. Pat

Thanks for following this through with me Pat. If I could think of anything else to try, I would give it one more go. I will be very interested to hear what you say after he dyno run on the 8th. Unfortuantely mine is booked in to have the system removed on the 2nd and I can't bring myself to cancel the appointment.

Without gas, my engine is a ripper. With my wind-sock shaped slide-on camper and weighing in at 3.7 tons I can cruise at 105 KPH comfortably, only big hills and big head winds slow it down and it still only uses around 12 litres/100 k's. It has more low-down power than either of my TD5's. I have never seen the EGT above 500 degrees and that up a lonnnng hill with a headwind and 40 degree outside temp. I wouldn't like to fiddle with the diesel tuning just to get it to work on gas.

Cheers,

Paul

[harryw]

I had the D gas system fitted back in April and at first it performed exactly as advertised, then I ran foul of the faulty solenoid switch and then the problems with the dodgy seal.

Because I headed up north for the winter the swopping of units was a somewhat protracted affair.

When I returned to Perth in September I had unit number 3 fitted and today refilled both diesel and gas after clocking 470 k's having used 47.6L of diesel and 12.66l of gas.

The figures of 10L per 100K around town I am happy with, the 26.6% gas to diesel I am not.

I have agreed with D gas to run another tankfull of fuel through the system and then they will look at the issue of the size of the gas jet to be used.

I have for the first time since buying the vehicle needed to put oil in the engine, just 1 litre , but I had been pulling a 2.5tonne caravan for 6,000K's so maybe that was why.

I am also not too happy with the guage for the LPG which goes from full to quarter full in the blink of an eye.

Throughout the problems I have had the attitude of Dgas has been consistent in that they have always been very keen to resolve the problems and have found local agencies to help with problems when I was away from Perth.

Ultimately I believe my system will give me what I paid for sadly a bit later than I would have liked so next year I will start to recover the $750, after govt rebates, the system cost me.

[abaddonxi]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Wilbur, and I hope they get sorted.

Thanks for starting the thread, it's turning out to be a beauty.

Cheers
Simon

[PAT303]

I'm a bit disappointed I couldn't be of more help but today driving home from work I turned the gas on and off and there was without doubt a pick-up in performance running gas,I can't give a fuel usage as my no.4 injector is leaking so that will have to wait.I will open a new post after the dyno run and put up the result's. Pat

[justinc]

Pat, yes I do think a Tdi fuelling tweak and pump timing improvement(plunger lift to 1.6mm) will also help the gas to be more effective. Also, critically valve clearances need to be perfect (.008" / .208mm) to make full use of the gas/ diesel mixture.

Paul, when did your Tdi last have the tappets set? And, has there been any fuelling upgrades done, 500 degrees seems too cold (IE standard fuelling) for upstream temps. I typically can adjust these to give 600+ and the difference is remarkable. Did one recently in a 110, and because he is now in a higher gear up hills etc, he is now using LESS fuel over a given distance/ trip.

JC

[PAT303]

JC do you think that it is possible to go too far?.I have given very clear instructions as to how much tuning up can be done on mine but it has 406,000k's on the clock so it is past it's best.One question,can you buy a replacement cap for the fuel screw?,what do you do?. Pat

[justinc]

JC do you think that it is possible to go too far?.I have given very clear instructions as to how much tuning up can be done on mine but it has 406,000k's on the clock so it is past it's best.One question,can you buy a replacement cap for the fuel screw?,what do you do?. Pat

Hi Pat,

Hell yes, without a pyro and a greedy operator can see 800 degrees and ZD30 Nissan type piston damage:eek:
406K can still be done, but set the temps to about 600MAX upstream. the timing plunger lift mod will breathe new life into it and not effect any reliability at all.
If you are talking about the plastic cover for the main fuel screw, then possibly from a bosch diesel pump rebuilder or similar, but I never bother. When I set them I just put a dab of paint on it to see if anyone has done any unauthorised tampering at a later stage:twisted:

Do you have a pyro in the cabin? I would really recommend this. Even after you set up the adjustments, you still need to monitor the temps when towing in higher ambient temperatures or with differing loads.

I sometimes set the fuelling quite high for those that want more go, but warn them to back off after 650 to 700 deg have been reached. I wouldn't dream of these settings in a non pyro equipped Tdi.

JC

[Dougal]

I have never seen the EGT above 500 degrees and that up a lonnnng hill with a headwind and 40 degree outside temp.

Figures like that make me question the probe location. Does it extend right into the gas flow or is it being "heat sinked" by the manfold or plate it's mounted in?

My 4BD1T pulls 430C upstream of the turbo on a flat road at 100km/h.

[Wilbur]

I'm a bit disappointed I couldn't be of more help but today driving home from work I turned the gas on and off and there was without doubt a pick-up in performance running gas,I can't give a fuel usage as my no.4 injector is leaking so that will have to wait.I will open a new post after the dyno run and put up the result's. Pat

Hi again Pat,

Just to clarify, was it at full throttle that you felt the extra power? With all the comments from yourself and others I start to wonder if I am doung the correct thing in having the system removed.

My big fear is that it will damage the engine the way the percentage gas is all over the place. If it wasn't for that fear, I would persevere - provided I knew how to proceed!

Cheers,

Paul

[Wilbur]

Pat, yes I do think a Tdi fuelling tweak and pump timing improvement(plunger lift to 1.6mm) will also help the gas to be more effective. Also, critically valve clearances need to be perfect (.008" / .208mm) to make full use of the gas/ diesel mixture.

Paul, when did your Tdi last have the tappets set? And, has there been any fuelling upgrades done, 500 degrees seems too cold (IE standard fuelling) for upstream temps. I typically can adjust these to give 600+ and the difference is remarkable. Did one recently in a 110, and because he is now in a higher gear up hills etc, he is now using LESS fuel over a given distance/ trip.

JC

Hi JC,

Interesting. The tappets have not been done for a long time, mostly because I don't know how to turn over the engine. It is easy with a petrol engine, whip out the plugs and grab the fan belt. How does one turn over a diesel by hand?

As far as I know the fuelling has never been touched. I am suspicious of the EGT - the pyro head is from Therma-guard and the gauge is a VDO analog gauge. There may be an incompatibility. In normal driving on a flat road at 100 k's (with my heavy, wind-sock camper on the back) it sits at about 400 degrees, or up to 450 if I am pushing in to a strong headwind.

I think my engine is running well for a 300tdi, just based on the fact that it performs about the same as either of my TD5 Defenders, but has better low down power than either TD5.

Even if the lack of benefit was overcome by re-setting the tappets, I would still be worried about the widely varying gas percentage. Do you have any comment on that? Is it normal to have such a huge variation (8.5% to 25% on similar driving) in gas percentage? How likely is it to do damage to the engine if the percentage suddenly did shoot up? The first tank I used with a 45 jet used over 40% gas. The engine was pretty noisy!

Cheers,

Paul

[Wilbur]

Figures like that make me question the probe location. Does it extend right into the gas flow or is it being "heat sinked" by the manfold or plate it's mounted in?

My 4BD1T pulls 430C upstream of the turbo on a flat road at 100km/h.

Hi Dougal,

Yes, I was wondering about the heatsinking. It is slow to respond. When I back right off, it takes about 5 to 10 seconds for the temperature reading to drop. The pyro head is mounted in the middle of the EGR blanking plate. Not sure what else I could do to avoid the heatsink effect.

Cheers,

Paul

[PAT303]

Paul My truck does start to pull up once it reaches a 100k's,it will still go to 130 on a straight piece of road but it has done that from new.I also run 255/85 tyres so it is stightly overgeared.With the gas useage remember that it is boost controlled so it will go up and down depending on how much throttle you give it.I found with mine,remember I haven't had it long is that I can sit on 100 and them switch the gas on and off,on I can lift my foot and it will stay there,it's happy to cruise along and it will get economy but in town it brings the power on earlier,in third you can notice it well.It isn't a tyre burner,I can feel the engine being just a bit more willing,I also notice a bit decrease in exhaust smoke,I gun it in fourth will diesel it puffs smoke,D/G there is bugger all.Thanks for the imput JC,a pyro will be on order. Pat

[PAT303]

A couple of stuff ups in the last paragraph but you get the picture!. Pat

[markb]

450-500 does sound a bit low. I have a Madman EGT gauge fitted and yesterday towing a tadem trailer with just under a ton in it I was hitting over 650 at the end of some long hills. That said I managed to maintain the 110kmh speed limit most of the time. Only having the gas injection made this possible. The gas doesn't seem to effect the EGT and I think it actually makes the engine slightly quieter with a little less of the diesel rattle. Mine has also had the feul pump modified by LRAoutomotive.

[PAT303]

Mines the same,less diesel rattle.That can only be a good thing,I think it is also the reason my temp is down slightly. Pat

[Wilbur]

Mines the same,less diesel rattle.That can only be a good thing,I think it is also the reason my temp is down slightly. Pat

Well I'm buggered if I know! That was one of the prime reasons I went with D-gas - the promise of less diesel knock, along with the promise of less smoke and cleaner oil gave me the feeling it would be a 'kindness' to the engine.

Instead, with reducing jet size I eventually got down to no extra noise but certainly never less noise. I also didn't get less smoke and the oil got black just as quick.

It feels like we are all on different planets!

It seems gas fumigation works for some engines and not others. It is about 50-50 amongst those I talk to. Half say it works, half say it's a dud. I wanted to get my Oka done too, but I can't know if it will work on my particular engine or not and it's just not worth the gamble.

D-gas were helpful in so far as they continually told me it worked, patted me and stroked me and told me how happy I would be once I had it set up properly, and they sent me plenty of jets to try. However, when I lost patience and said I wanted them to honour their money-back guarantee they point blank refused. When I threatened to take them to court, they just refused further contact.

The installer has verbally agreed to a refund, but I feel that unless D-gas come to the party I won't actually get the refund. I have two others ready to join a class action for a refund - any other takers here? The more we get, the better our chances.

Cheers,

Paul

[markb]

Does it seem the issues are with the D-Gas system? I have a Dieselgas Australia system which I have been pleased with since installation. The reason I eventually put the system on was after speaking with someone else who also had the Dieselgas Australia System fitted and was also very happy.

[Wilbur]

Does it seem the issues are with the D-Gas system? I have a Dieselgas Australia system which I have been pleased with since installation. The reason I eventually put the system on was after speaking with someone else who also had the Dieselgas Australia System fitted and was also very happy.

Dunno, Mark. The only owners I know who are unhappy are D-gas ones. However, when I gave up on the D-gas system, I thought it might be worth keeping the gas bottle and lines and trying the Diesel-Gas Australia system.

The local DGA installer loaned me his own car to try, again my seat-of-pants dyno said very little was happening at full throttle. As with D-gas, the gas at part throttle worked and felt good but not at flat out. (His car was a Japanese something or other with a HUGE engine and buckets of power anyway, so it may have been harder to tell).

So I really don't know if it is specific or endemic.

Cheers,

Paul

[DeeJay]

Have a look at the AAFRB website- Automotive Alternative Fuels Registration Board (AAFRB) (http://www.aafrb.com.au)
Click on Industry news & more at the bottom of the page
Look at the latest newsletter Winter 2008

This newsletter says none of the fumigation systems - that they are aware of- have been submitted for emission compliance to the Aust Standard and the fitting of them may render a vehicle unroadworthy and therefore uninsurable.
Sorry to point that one out.:nazilock:

[Iain_B]

I found it highly unlikely that the government would pay us to fit something illegal. After 5 seconds of research I came up with this


See below.

"The emission standards were introduced via two new series of ADRs, which apply to vehicles depending on their gross vehicle mass (GVM):

* ADR79/00, ADR79/01, and ADR79/02 for light-duty vehicles at or below 3.5 t GVM (replacing ADR37/01)
* ADR80/00, ADR80/01, ADR80/02, and ADR80/03 for heavy-duty vehicles above 3.5 t GVM (replacing ADR70/00)

The new ADRs apply to new vehicles fueled with petrol, diesel, as well as with LPG or natural gas, with an implementation schedule from 2002/3 to 2010/11. The requirements are summarized in Table 1 (the requirements and dates for heavy LPG and NG vehicles are the same as for diesel).

The two year date combinations shown in the table refer to the dates applicable to new model vehicles and all model vehicles, respectively. For example, in the case of 02/03, this means that from 1 January 2002 any new model first produced with a date of manufacture after 1 January 2002 must comply with the ADR, and from 1 January 2003 all new vehicles (regardless of the first production date for that particular model) must comply."



SO it only applied from 2003 vehicles onwards.

[DeeJay]

I found it highly unlikely that the government would pay us to fit something illegal. After 5 seconds of research I came up with this


See below.

"The emission standards were introduced via two new series of ADRs, which apply to vehicles depending on their gross vehicle mass (GVM):

* ADR79/00, ADR79/01, and ADR79/02 for light-duty vehicles at or below 3.5 t GVM (replacing ADR37/01)
* ADR80/00, ADR80/01, ADR80/02, and ADR80/03 for heavy-duty vehicles above 3.5 t GVM (replacing ADR70/00)

The new ADRs apply to new vehicles fueled with petrol, diesel, as well as with LPG or natural gas, with an implementation schedule from 2002/3 to 2010/11. The requirements are summarized in Table 1 (the requirements and dates for heavy LPG and NG vehicles are the same as for diesel).

The two year date combinations shown in the table refer to the dates applicable to new model vehicles and all model vehicles, respectively. For example, in the case of 02/03, this means that from 1 January 2002 any new model first produced with a date of manufacture after 1 January 2002 must comply with the ADR, and from 1 January 2003 all new vehicles (regardless of the first production date for that particular model) must comply."



SO it only applied from 2003 vehicles onwards.

Yes, that extract applies to new vehicles.

Anything there about offering a commercial conversion that will alter emissions?
It does'nt surprise me that one Gov't dept has no idea what another does.

[JDNSW]

Just to put the situation in perspective -

1. Most states now have legislation to prevent insurers from evading payment of claims where the insured's transgression has nothing to do with the claim - and unless the claim is related to the modification (e.g. gas leak resulted in fire), and even then they would have nothing to stand on if they had been notified of the fitting. Although they might try to recover from the fitter's insurer. It is difficult to see how a failure to comply with emissions standards could result in a claim, and most gas system suppliers claim improved emissions results anyway.

2. The number of gas fumigation vehicles which may be technically non-compliant would be miniscule compared to the number that have had the fuelling modified without the new chip being submitted for compliance testing. And in most of these cases emissions would have been increased - but any insurance implications would certainly not come from the fact that the new fuelling scheme has not been submitted for compliance testing.

Certainly in most if not all states and territories the days of insurers rejecting claims for irrelevant reasons are long gone - occasionally they will try it, but it is pure bluff.

John

[PAT303]

Just a quick heads up,My defender has been driven hard,I'm trying to get it to knock or have a drama but it hasn't even looked like having a problem with a 40thou gas jet,anyway I has returned after 1600k's 135ltrs of diesel and 40 ltrs gas in a mix of town,open road driving.That amount includes playing with the set-up and test driving etc and me giving it a hard time.The engine pulls stronger from any gear,very noticeable in third and fourth,in fourth it is limited by the gearing and I past a three trailer road train on friday in fifth from 80 up to 120 and it pulled past no drama's.It is early days and a tune is happening in a week or two but I'm likeing the gas more and more.I'll post up the dyno sheet and give it a few more tanks and post up the results. Pat

[harryw]

You would have to be happy with return 8.4 litres per 100k, although the LPG @29% is a bit on the high side according to the installer I used.

[PAT303]

It's early days.It has spent a fair time at idle which would help the diesel side but it will get a tune on both shortly. Pat

[Wilbur]

Hi Pat,

Have you had the dyno bit done yet? Very interested to learn of your results.

Cheers,

Paul

[PAT303]

Mate done already.See my thread Dyno results D/gas. Pat

[Dougal]

Mate done already.See my thread Dyno results D/gas. Pat

Any hints on where that might be?

[PAT303]

If someone shows me how to ''Link'' to another thread I'd be more than happy.It was only a few weeks ago so look back through the tech section and you will find it. Pat

[Dougal]

If someone shows me how to ''Link'' to another thread I'd be more than happy.It was only a few weeks ago so look back through the tech section and you will find it. Pat

Just copy the address from your browser at the top of the page, paste it into a new thread and it'll show up as a clickable link.:)

*edit*
Found it:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/68662-results-dyno-figures-d-gas.html
*/edit*

[thorne]

Just to put the situation in perspective -

1. Most states now have legislation to prevent insurers from evading payment of claims where the insured's transgression has nothing to do with the claim - and unless the claim is related to the modification (e.g. gas leak resulted in fire), and even then they would have nothing to stand on if they had been notified of the fitting. Although they might try to recover from the fitter's insurer. It is difficult to see how a failure to comply with emissions standards could result in a claim, and most gas system suppliers claim improved emissions results anyway.

2. The number of gas fumigation vehicles which may be technically non-compliant would be miniscule compared to the number that have had the fuelling modified without the new chip being submitted for compliance testing. And in most of these cases emissions would have been increased - but any insurance implications would certainly not come from the fact that the new fuelling scheme has not been submitted for compliance testing.

Certainly in most if not all states and territories the days of insurers rejecting claims for irrelevant reasons are long gone - occasionally they will try it, but it is pure bluff.

John

They can claim all the pollution reductions they want but until they have certified results from a government accredited lab ( of which there is only two in Australia )

As a result they are not certified to ADR79/00/01/02 and therefore illegal to be installed on any vehicle 2003 or newer.

The reason why the diesel gas systems fail is the build up on hydrocarbons and NOx in the exhaust. True they lower CO and CO2 but they fail on NOx and HC.

Victoria police this heavily hence the reason why most of the systems aren't for sale there. They make you pull the system off or void your registration. The other states will start doing the same shortly so Big Kev can meet his promised 5% emission reduction.

The only dieselgas company to pass is Gastek Global (AKA Sequent Systems)

Emission kits (http://www.gastek.com.au/cgi-bin/engine.pl?Page=page.html&Rec=169)

Personally I'd be worried about how long the other companies will still be in business until the government shuts them down.

Dieselgas Australia now has it's QLD, NSW and VIC distributers on the market. (do a google search for "The Dieselgas experts")

Without the other dieselgas companies doing some R&D, it's quickly going to become a one horse race.

Thorne

[Wilbur]

Victoria police this heavily hence the reason why most of the systems aren't for sale there. They make you pull the system off or void your registration. The other states will start doing the same shortly so Big Kev can meet his promised 5% emission reduction. Thorne

Very, very interesting, Thorne. I wonder how this ties in, with one government dept giving people $2,000 to have these fitted, and another one taking them off?

I would be really grateful if you could direct me to any supporting documentation. I am currently in a legal battle trying to get a refund on a dud system, and proof that they don't do what they claim in pollution reduction terms would be a real help.

Cheers,

Paul

[defender 1995]

ALL OF THESE SYSTEMS SAY THEY IMPROVE THE EMMISIONS AND ARE THE BEST BUT, ANY CAR BUILT AFTER 2003 HAS TO HAVE AN EMMISION CERTIFIED KIT TO COMPLY WITH THE AUSTRALIAN STANDARD AS1425 I HAVE BEEN LOOKING AROUND AT THIS. D GAS DOES NOT SEEM HAVE ANY EMMISION KITS OR DIESEL GAS AUSTRALIA THE ONLY ONE I CAN FIND IS GASTEK CHECK IT OUT AT Sequent Systems - Diesel Gas Injection Systems (http://www.gastek.com.au) AS IF YOUR CAR IS NEWER THEN 2003 IT IS ILLEGLE TO FIT A DIESEL GAS KIT THAT IS NOT EMISION CERTIFIED .BECAUSE YOU MAY HAVE TO REMOVE IT LATER SO BE VERY CAREFULL

[defender 1995]

Very, very interesting, Thorne. I wonder how this ties in, with one government dept giving people $2,000 to have these fitted, and another one taking them off?

I would be really grateful if you could direct me to any supporting documentation. I am currently in a legal battle trying to get a refund on a dud system, and proof that they don't do what they claim in pollution reduction terms would be a real help.

Cheers,

Paul

if they did reduce the emissions then all of them would pass the ADR 79/00 and ADR 79/01 testing and have lots of emission kits i have noticed that none of them have any emission kits that is except for gas tek global this is why the LPGaustralia with it's paper removing the barriers is trying to get the emission rules watered down so some of these polluting systems can stay in business

[thorne]

Very, very interesting, Thorne. I wonder how this ties in, with one government dept giving people $2,000 to have these fitted, and another one taking them off?

I would be really grateful if you could direct me to any supporting documentation. I am currently in a legal battle trying to get a refund on a dud system, and proof that they don't do what they claim in pollution reduction terms would be a real help.

Cheers,

Paul

Ask them for their test results showing the reduction in emissions. We know they don't meet ADR70/00/01/02 cause they'd be selling certified kits like GasTek. Odds are they have never tested it and have no proof.

If your vehicle is 2003 or newer then unless they have a certification plate stating they meet ADR79/00/01/02 (depending on the year of the vehicle), the system is illegal and I wouldn't want to be them if it went to court.

If your vehicle is 2002 or older it's perfectly legal. Bugger all chance of getting your money back. It would cost more to get the testing done than the system costs. If they offer a money back guarantee and won't refund then go them for false advertising.

The only other option is to take it on the chin and tell every man and his dog what a crap system it was. It's cheaper and will cost the company more money in the long run. The court system is there only to make blood sucking lawyers money ( no offence intended to other blood sucking parasites out there )

Thorne

[thorne]

if they did reduce the emissions then all of them would pass the ADR 79/00 and ADR 79/01 testing and have lots of emission kits i have noticed that none of them have any emission kits that is except for gas tek global this is why the LPGaustralia with it's paper removing the barriers is trying to get the emission rules watered down so some of these polluting systems can stay in business

Can't see LPGAustralia having a chance to water it down. The only real reason they can use is that the standard is impossible to meet. If Gas Tek Global has met the standard then that means it's not impossible.

Maybe if DGA and D-Gas can't meet the standard they should get out now. It might explain why the distribution companies for Dieselgas Australia in NSW, VIC and QLD is on the market. A phrase including the words "rats" and "sinking ships" springs to mind.

Thorne

[p38arover]

To reiterate a previous question (sent in PM form as well), do either Defender 1995 or Thorne have any affiliation with Sequent Systems, Diesel Gas Technologies, or Gastek?

[PAT303]

Just a quick heads up,I've gone down a size in jet from .040 to a .030,I'm very happy with performance and the last tank I got 720kms out of 66ltrs of diesel and 18ltres of gas,that was with the larger jet and we have had a couple of 40plus degree days and the temp has stayed the same throughout. Pat

[Albert]

From what i have read the non electronic ones run a syple venturie system in the manifold. this means the flow is dependant on the air flow that is going in.
I like this system as I dont want any computer to fail on me, and I dont know how it would all connect to my Isuzu.
My mate has one (not sure what type) on his 96 TDI and said it had heaps more power but no better economy.

[PAT303]

Mines boost regulated.Better torque,better economy. Pat

[Dougal]

From what i have read the non electronic ones run a syple venturie system in the manifold. this means the flow is dependant on the air flow that is going in.
I like this system as I dont want any computer to fail on me, and I dont know how it would all connect to my Isuzu.
My mate has one (not sure what type) on his 96 TDI and said it had heaps more power but no better economy.

An electrical engineer I know summed peoples attitude to electronics up quite well.
"Because windows crashes all the time, people expect everything electronic to do the same".

[350RRC]

An electrical engineer I know summed peoples attitude to electronics up quite well.
"Because windows crashes all the time, people expect everything electronic to do the same".

Hi Dougal,

I have only ever used Mac and have a severe allergy to electronics. In my case it is due to my inability to diagnose what causes probs. With mechanical stuff you can generally see, smell, hear or feel what is wrong.

DL

[Disco_owner]

on a "Diesel-Gas" system I would want as much electronics and Sensors to monitor all the Engine parameters as possible as "Longevity" of my engine is paramount ( if I was to install such a system) and if electronics Fails in this type of System , it's no Big Deal , I would think one would Still be able to Drive the Vehicle with Diesel in the tank as there is that Option , so the electronics in the system breaking down out in the Bush ( outback ) , that argument Doesn't really Hold water in that regard.

[slug_burner]

The economy and power achieved with the newer gas systems are only possible due to the electronics that monitors and determines when to allow gas to be used and when to turn it off.

If it was not for electronics modern jets would not fly. So how many people use the DC3 service to London these days?:angel: All the carby vehicle drivers I guess:twisted:

[p38arover]

on a "Diesel-Gas" system I would want as much electronics and Sensors to monitor all the Engine parameters as possible as "Longevity" of my engine is paramount ( if I was to install such a system) and if electronics Fails in this type of System , it's no Big Deal , I would think one would Still be able to Drive the Vehicle with Diesel in the tank as there is that Option , so the electronics in the system breaking down out in the Bush ( outback ) , that argument Doesn't really Hold water in that regard.

Correct on all counts

[PAT303]

On my system the gas will not come on untill the coolant temp reaches 42 degrees and the boost pressure is above 2 psi. Pat

[Wilbur]

on a "Diesel-Gas" system I would want as much electronics and Sensors to monitor all the Engine parameters as possible as "Longevity" of my engine is paramount ( if I was to install such a system) and if electronics Fails in this type of System , it's no Big Deal , I would think one would Still be able to Drive the Vehicle with Diesel in the tank as there is that Option , so the electronics in the system breaking down out in the Bush ( outback ) , that argument Doesn't really Hold water in that regard.

It may not be that simple. If you are bowling along a noisy, corrugated road and your electronic system throws a wobbly and starts severely overgassing, you could blow your engine completely before you even hear it detonating. The noise made when my D-gas system was on was very slight, but now it uses oil......

I design electronic equipment for a living. I chose a non-electronic system for my car. It was a dud, but the point is I elected not to go electronic based on my professional knowledge. Unless the system is designed to be fail-safe (rarely done except in medical equipment) you just can't be confident.

[Wilbur]

The only other option is to take it on the chin and tell every man and his dog what a crap system it was. It's cheaper and will cost the company more money in the long run. The court system is there only to make blood sucking lawyers money ( no offence intended to other blood sucking parasites out there )

Thorne

I know you are quite right, Thorne, and I share your charitable view on the legal system. However, I have just retired from a very full-on job, during which I have been shafted quite a few times but not had the time to deal with it.

Now I have time on my hands, and the clowns in Canberra who did a shoddy install of a shoddy product are going to pay even if I lose out on the deal. Ultimately I know only the legal sharks will win, but they made a mess of my lovely Land Rover and that is a sin not to be forgotten lightly!

Cheers,

Paul

[Disco_owner]

It may not be that simple. If you are bowling along a noisy, corrugated road and your electronic system throws a wobbly and starts severely overgassing, you could blow your engine completely before you even hear it detonating. The noise made when my D-gas system was on was very slight, but now it uses oil......

I design electronic equipment for a living. I chose a non-electronic system for my car. It was a dud, but the point is I elected not to go electronic based on my professional knowledge. Unless the system is designed to be fail-safe (rarely done except in medical equipment) you just can't be confident.

Wilbur;

sure , I respect your decision to chose a Non-electronic D-gas system , and you have taken into account many different scenarios , systems can be Designed to make things simple , lots of redundancies , I was also referring to a Diesel-Gas System with a Fail-Safe automatic override ,not sure if the Diesel-Gas sequent II system has this built in ? in case of a Sensors or microprocessor fail , and they can be done to switch off the system in mirco-seconds or even nano-seconds , Electronics can be designed to do this and they can be done to do so reliably.

[PAT303]

I just want to ask,how would the system overgas?.I have had four LPG powered vehicles and each one had an overpressure valve that shut off if there was a sudden drop in system pressure.I think you all have to realise that this isn't a new thing,it has been around a long time and there isn't blown up engines lying around,trust me we would all hear about it.Wilbur I can't see how your engine would use oil because of D/Gas,it would be because it is working hard,you have said it yourself.It is a shame that you could not get it to work though. Pat

[Wilbur]

Wilbur;

....... Fail-Safe automatic override ,not sure if the Diesel-Gas sequent II system has this built in ? in case of a Sensors or microprocessor fail , and they can be done to switch off the system in mirco-seconds or even nano-seconds , Electronics can be designed to do this and they can be done to do so reliably.

Most electronic systems use a micro-processor to test data from various sensors and so calculate the appropriate amount of gas for any situation. They can also have provision to shut the system down in the event of a malfunction. HOWEVER, the gas is typically regulated (or shut down) by using a transistor to rapidly switch on and off a valve. The ratio of ON time to OFF time defines the amount of gas injected - much like any EFI system. If this transistor fails, or in fact the circuitry that controls it, no amount of argument from the microprocessor will stop an over-gassing situation.

You are quite correct, electronics can be designed to fail-safe in most (never all) possible fault scenarios. Automotive EFI systems rarely fail at all these days - but we are talking about systems that have evolved over many decades with the worlds best engineers doing the refining. The automotive industry doesn't take kindly to failures of third-party components, so only the best survive. When Bosch design a gas-fumigation system for a mainstream motor manufacturer, then I will trust an electronic system not to cause damage.

Having said all that, I must add that I know no details of the electronic systems available in Australia. For all I know they have double or even triple redundancy circuits and if so, the risk of a fail-dangerous situation is vanishingly slim. It would be a good question to ask of your supplier before fitting an electronic gas fumigation system.

Cheers all,

Paul

[Wilbur]

I just want to ask,how would the system overgas?.I have had four LPG powered vehicles and each one had an overpressure valve that shut off if there was a sudden drop in system pressure.I think you all have to realise that this isn't a new thing,it has been around a long time and there isn't blown up engines lying around,trust me we would all hear about it.Wilbur I can't see how your engine would use oil because of D/Gas,it would be because it is working hard,you have said it yourself.It is a shame that you could not get it to work though. Pat

Hi Pat,

In my case, I presume the jet fitted was too large for the pressure differential between the gas pressure and the manifold pressure. This is why it over-gassed. The installer just fitted the jet size specified by D-gas, and didn't test it properly. My car is pretty noisy and I didn't hear the extra noise - I went out and covered 400 k's as suggested by D-gas to test the gas ratio usage which turned out to be over 40%.

I don't know what is actually causing the extra oil usage. It has been suggested that the extra heat of detonation damaged the rings. It has always worked hard since I have had it, but only started using oil after I covered the 400 k's of testing with D-gas.

However, there may have been some other problem with my installation because other than increased noise, there was absolutely no change in performance and very minimal or no reduction in diesel fuel usage.

I am glad your system is working - I wish I knew the difference between your set up and mine!

Cheers,

Paul

[Dougal]

Hi Pat,

In my case, I presume the jet fitted was too large for the pressure differential between the gas pressure and the manifold pressure. This is why it over-gassed. The installer just fitted the jet size specified by D-gas, and didn't test it properly. My car is pretty noisy and I didn't hear the extra noise - I went out and covered 400 k's as suggested by D-gas to test the gas ratio usage which turned out to be over 40%.

I don't know what is actually causing the extra oil usage. It has been suggested that the extra heat of detonation damaged the rings. It has always worked hard since I have had it, but only started using oil after I covered the 400 k's of testing with D-gas.

However, there may have been some other problem with my installation because other than increased noise, there was absolutely no change in performance and very minimal or no reduction in diesel fuel usage.

I am glad your system is working - I wish I knew the difference between your set up and mine!

Cheers,

Paul

Have you had a compression test done since?

[Wilbur]

Have you had a compression test done since?

Good suggestion, Dougal, no, I hadn't thought of that. Although I don't have any 'before' figures to compare with, I would guess that it would be unlikely that if any damage has been done that it is the same on each cylinder. If there is a marked difference between cylinders, that would certainly indicate damage rather than wear.

I will investigate!

Thanks,

Paul

[PAT303]

Paul is the top intercooler hose full of oil?,the turbo's do breath heavy if worked hard. Pat

[Wilbur]

Paul is the top intercooler hose full of oil?,the turbo's do breath heavy if worked hard. Pat

Thanks Pat, interesting question, will check on the weekend.

Cheers,

Paul

[thorne]

It may not be that simple. If you are bowling along a noisy, corrugated road and your electronic system throws a wobbly and starts severely overgassing, you could blow your engine completely before you even hear it detonating. The noise made when my D-gas system was on was very slight, but now it uses oil......

I design electronic equipment for a living. I chose a non-electronic system for my car. It was a dud, but the point is I elected not to go electronic based on my professional knowledge. Unless the system is designed to be fail-safe (rarely done except in medical equipment) you just can't be confident.

According to the speal on Gas Tek (Sequent) they use self resetting fuses, system logging and automatic shutoff if there is a problem. The whole system is resin set making it water, dust and vibration proof.

If you want total reliability with no electronics stop 4WDing and start bushwalking.

To answer Ron's question I don't work for Gastek but I own one. After five minutes talking to the bloke who designed the system, Derek Watkins, you wouldn't go anywhere else. He'd be the top Land Rover mechanic in the country.

Thorne

[PAT303]

Second that.I have Dereks system on the disco,He can change a Tdi timing belt in 2 hours drive in drive out,he's done mine three times!!. Pat

[nice1guv]

Second that. I have Dereks system on the disco. Pat

Hi Pat,

Do you have a Sequent lpg/diesel system on the Disco and a D-gas lpg/diesel system on the Defender?

If so, why different units? and are there any differences between the two?

[PAT303]

I would have Dereks system on both If I still lived in the Hunter Valley.I have D/gas on the defender because that is all I could get over here.Dereks system is light years ahead in technology,that is why he gets higher power,better economy.Comparing the two is comparing a D3 to a series one and if anyone doubts the reliability of it as far as engine trouble he has run it on his own personal defender and his wives disco for quite a few years.I am happy with the way mine goes but I would have liked to drive it back to get it fitted with the gastek system but couldn't. Pat

[p38arover]

I would have Dereks system on both If I still lived in the Hunter Valley.I have D/gas on the defender because that is all I could get over here.Dereks system is light years ahead in technology,that is why he gets higher power,better economy.Comparing the two is comparing a D3 to a series one and if anyone doubts the reliability of it as far as engine trouble he has run it on his own personal defender and his wives disco for quite a few years.I am happy with the way mine goes but I would have liked to drive it back to get it fitted with the gastek system but couldn't. Pat

Agents in Western Australia



Kalgoolie (http://www.gastek.com.au/cgi-bin/engine.pl?Page=page.html&Rec=143)
Performance Gas & Mechanical U2/384 Hay Street PO Box 2006 Boulder Kalgoolie 6432 WA Australia
Collie (http://www.gastek.com.au/cgi-bin/engine.pl?Page=page.html&Rec=146)
Collie Auto-Tech 3 Forrest St Collie 6225 WA Australia
Rockingham (http://www.gastek.com.au/cgi-bin/engine.pl?Page=page.html&Rec=147)
Custom Mechanics 40A Hurrell Way Rockingham 6168 WA Australia
Albany (http://www.gastek.com.au/cgi-bin/engine.pl?Page=page.html&Rec=148)
Dowsetts Auto Service 16-18 Sanford Rd Albany 6330 WA Australia
Osborne Park (http://www.gastek.com.au/cgi-bin/engine.pl?Page=page.html&Rec=152)
Bongoirnos Dyno and Tune Centre 107 Frobisher St Osborne Park 6017 WA Australia

[PAT303]

It was running when I moved here then closed down,opened again under a different name and with a four month wait on kits and the same amount he had the doors closed I looked elsewere.I was comitted by the time I realised my mistake. Pat

[nice1guv]

Hi Pat, Are the gains worth it for the Sequent system you have?

Do you get a noticeable difference when on and off?

[PAT303]

The Disco runs like a new car on gas,better idle,more power,smoother everything is better.I have had three petrol powered LPG vehicles and it is the only system I would have,like I posted above I am kicking myself for not waiting longer to get it on the defender but thems are the breaks.LPG systems are like optics,the more you pay the higher the performance. Pat