2a axles

[Olive Drab]

HI all,
Does anyone in brisbane make aftermarket axles for 2a land rovers. I'm sick of changing them. Cheers

[JDNSW]

I assume the problem is the rear axle. If you have a lwb the solution is to fit a salisbury rear axle from an S3. If swb, it has been done, but the prop shaft gets pretty short and is likely to give trouble.

John

[Aaron IIA]

Why do you keep breaking them? Have you a different engine?
Aaron.

[Olive Drab]

109" with 202 red motor. I also used to break axles in my last 109 which had a 2.25 rover motor. I dont thrash them I realise they are tractors and not dune buggies mostly happens when the wheel bounces off the ground on uneven surface. I am thinking softer spring set may alleviate some of the problem but how do i deal with the extra travel that may result. Landies are still a ton-o-fun

[rangieman]

Jack Mcnamarra in melbourne might be the guy for you:D
You do know once the axles are stronger the next weak link is the diffs

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The 109" was always more prone to breaking axles than the 88".

Maxidrive until last year would make axles for SI (with fully floating) SII, SIIa and SIII although you had to change the drive flange on the hub to 24 spline either OEM (ENV or SIII) or Maxi-drive.

Hi-Tough Engineering should therefore make them now.

If you want to change to the Salisbury, you may be lucky enough to acquire one off a Suffix H SIIa which had Salisbury diff with 9/16 UNF studs.

Diana

[isuzurover]

Cheap option is a salisbury rear (from a SIII 109"). Last one I bought was $200.

More expensive option, is an upgraded centre and 24-spline axles. That will run you at least $1k. Suppliers include: Jack McNamara, Hytuff Eng, Rovertracks.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Cheap option is a salisbury rear (from a SIII 109"). Last one I bought was $200.

......
If you do use the SIII Salisbury, make sure you grab the prop-shaft as well (so long as it is off the same 4cyl/6cyl chassis as yours) it will save quite a few dollars having to get yours shortened.

BTW: Don't worry about the hubs, you can swap your hubs and brake drums from your SIIa if you want to keep the standard 9/16" studs.

Diana

[Olive Drab]

have received some valuable info here many thanks. I am a qualified Mechanic in Greenbank (south Brisbane) I beleive in pay it forward, anyone needs a hand, or stuck just ask.
Cheers all
I am not advertising just offering tech help if needed.

[Aaron IIA]

mostly happens when the wheel bounces off the ground on uneven surface. I am thinking softer spring set may alleviate some of the problem but how do i deal with the extra travel that may result.

If you engage the front axle when on uneven or rough dirt surfaces, it will minimise the effect of a wheel speeding up when it leaves the ground and then suddenly slowing down when it comes back down. Good shock absorbers will help to stop the wheels from leaving the ground.
Aaron.

[chazza]

Very interesting post this!

I haven't been unfortunate enough to break an axle yet; however; I always engage high-four whenever I drive on a loose surface, even if it is a well made road. Perhaps that is why I have escaped.

Aaron; can you explain why having FWD engaged will stop a bouncing rear axle from breaking?

Cheers Charlie

[isuzurover]

Very interesting post this!

I haven't been unfortunate enough to break an axle yet; however; I always engage high-four whenever I drive on a loose surface, even if it is a well made road. Perhaps that is why I have escaped.

Aaron; can you explain why having FWD engaged will stop a bouncing rear axle from breaking?

Cheers Charlie

What breaks axles (or at least fatigues them so they break later) is torque/shock loading in low range offroad. If you never use the vehicle in low range offroad you will probably never have any problems.

I have lost count of the number of series (10 spline) axles I broke - both in SWB or LWB vehicles. I was mechanically sympathetic, but would drive anything I thought I could (though with minimum wheelspin).

Unless you are really hammering them, they will usually only start to fail (plastically deform), and fail completely at a leter date. Half of them failed on-road - one while driving downhill!!!

My father hasn't used his 88" offroad for quite a while (apart from beach trips) - and hasn't broken any axles in years!!!

[dandlandyman]

I know that bigger tyres increase the stress on axles. I didn't break any axles while my 2a was on 205s, but I've done three short axles since fitting 750s. I prefer the extra ground clearance, fuel economy and speed of 750s though.

Dan.
69 2a 88" pet4, 74 3 109" pet4, 68 2b FC pet6.

[Aaron IIA]

Very interesting post this!

I haven't been unfortunate enough to break an axle yet; however; I always engage high-four whenever I drive on a loose surface, even if it is a well made road. Perhaps that is why I have escaped.

Aaron; can you explain why having FWD engaged will stop a bouncing rear axle from breaking?

Cheers Charlie

When you are driving along with an amount of throttle applied and a wheel leaves the ground (due to corrugations), it will accelerate it's angular velocity (spin faster). When the wheel comes back down and contacts the ground, it must decelerate instantaneously back to the speed required for the current forward motion. As this deceleration happens over a very brief period of time, the negative accelaration is very high. This imparts a high torque on the drive axle, resulting in it being repetatively stressed over time.

If the front axle is engaged, any wheel that leaves the ground can not speed up. This is because the two wheels on the other axle are still in contact with the ground, and prevent the system (the back axle is linked to the front axle) from speeding up. This assumes that only one axle has a/any wheel/s off the ground at any one time.

This theory is not perfect, as there is an amount of backlash in the system. This does allow some amount of rotation between the front and rear axles, but overall, the damaging effect is reduced when the front axle is engaged on loose terrain.

I hope this helps.

Aaron.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Aaron

I thought that the bottom of the wheel was always stationary and it's only the rear half of the wheel that is accelerating while the top of the wheel is at double the velocity of the vehicle and the front half is decelerating?

Diana

P.S. Has that got anyone scratching their head! :) ;)

[Aaron IIA]

In my previous post, when I was talking about accelerating and decelerating, I meant angular acceleration and deceleration. This means increasing and decreasing the angular velocity (RPM) of the wheel/axle. I was not refering to linear acceleration and velocity.

Your anology about the bottom of the wheel being stationary, with the top of the wheel having twice the velocity of the vehicle is also correct, if you are looking at the instantaneous linear velocity of a small piece of the extremity of the tyre.

Ben, seeing as you are the Physics lecturer, check my work. I have only completed first year physics.

Aaron.

[hodgo]

HI all,
Does anyone in brisbane make aftermarket axles for 2a land rovers. I'm sick of changing them. Cheers
__________________________________________________ _______


I will sell a salisbury rear axle complete inc springs from a 109 and through in the tail shaft all for $220

Hodgo

[Olive Drab]

The last one I broke was clutch starting my 109 in reverse on concrete in the driveway. Somebody must have left the lights on. This turned out to be a tuff day as I had already broken a front axle and had to get my brother with his landcruiser to push me back up the street and back into the driveway. i hate listening to toyota owners

[JDNSW]

The last one I broke was clutch starting my 109 in reverse on concrete in the driveway. Somebody must have left the lights on. This turned out to be a tuff day as I had already broken a front axle and had to get my brother with his landcruiser to push me back up the street and back into the driveway. i hate listening to toyota owners

I'm not surprised - if not the axle, something else was likely to go. Clutch starts should always be in top, or at most third; use anything lower and you risk damage to the axles, drive train and particularly gearbox, especially in first or reverse.

First or reverse will usually skid the wheels before the engine turns unless you engage the clutch very suddenly (using the rotational momentum of the wheels to help), which applies shock loads to the entire drive train. A very slow push or tow in top will turn the engine at cranking speed, and it will start unless there is an engine problem, just declutch as soon as it fires. This does not require sudden engagement, and will not apply an unfair strain on the gearbox as will using a lower gear.

John

[isuzurover]

When you are driving along with an amount of throttle applied and a wheel leaves the ground (due to corrugations), it will accelerate it's angular velocity (spin faster). When the wheel comes back down and contacts the ground, it must decelerate instantaneously back to the speed required for the current forward motion. As this deceleration happens over a very brief period of time, the negative accelaration is very high. This imparts a high torque on the drive axle, resulting in it being repetatively stressed over time.

If the front axle is engaged, any wheel that leaves the ground can not speed up. This is because the two wheels on the other axle are still in contact with the ground, and prevent the system (the back axle is linked to the front axle) from speeding up. This assumes that only one axle has a/any wheel/s off the ground at any one time.

This theory is not perfect, as there is an amount of backlash in the system. This does allow some amount of rotation between the front and rear axles, but overall, the damaging effect is reduced when the front axle is engaged on loose terrain.

I hope this helps.

Aaron.

I am not a physicist - just an engineer - buy i do claim from time to time to be a physical chemist...

There are 2 different scenarios (assuming open diffs front and rear).

(a) You lift 1 wheel in 4x4, but have sufficient momentum/traction to maintain forward velocity/motion.

(b) you lift 1 wheel, and at least 1 wheel on the other axle has insufficient traction to maintain forward motion.

Case b is easier. The wheel that lifts off the ground will start to spin at DOUBLE the rotational velocity (rotate twice as fast). e.g. for a 4.7:1 diff, it will suddenly rotate like a 2.35:1 diff. This exacerbates the problem. Since 2 wheels are now spinning at 2.35:1 (quite fast) - the shock loading when the wheel returns to the ground can break something - as the wheel must come to a dead stop. A wheel on the 2nd axle doesn't need to lift, just have sufficiently low traction to spin (compared to the alternate wheel).

case a - the wheel that lifts will still turn twice as fast as the other 3 - since the other wheel on the same axle will be effectively receiving NO DRIVE. However, when it comes back to earth, the shock loading won't be as high.

I don't think you could ever break anything (in a 2.25P/D) by driving dirt roads in high range 2wd.

dandylandyman and JD:
High loads when reversing are very hard on old axles which have already been stresed in the forward direction. It was always a joke with thye comp vehicles running GQ axles and 35's. They could sit at the redline going forwards and not break a thing. As soon as they had to reverse - snap - broken CV stub.

As I mentioned earlier - I once broke an axle in an 88" going downhill. I had just turned a corner and I think the slight loading in the reverse direction (due to diff action) was enough to finish off an already doomed axle.

[JDNSW]

.........
There are 2 different scenarios (assuming open diffs front and rear).

(a) You lift 1 wheel in 4x4, but have sufficient momentum/traction to maintain forward velocity/motion.

(b) you lift 1 wheel, and at least 1 wheel on the other axle has insufficient traction to maintain forward motion.

Case b is easier. The wheel that lifts off the ground will start to spin at DOUBLE the rotational velocity (rotate twice as fast). e.g. for a 4.7:1 diff, it will suddenly rotate like a 2.35:1 diff. This exacerbates the problem. Since 2 wheels are now spinning at 2.35:1 (quite fast) - the shock loading when the wheel returns to the ground can break something - as the wheel must come to a dead stop. A wheel on the 2nd axle doesn't need to lift, just have sufficiently low traction to spin (compared to the alternate wheel).

case a - the wheel that lifts will still turn twice as fast as the other 3 - since the other wheel on the same axle will be effectively receiving NO DRIVE. However, when it comes back to earth, the shock loading won't be as high.

I don't think you could ever break anything (in a 2.25P/D) by driving dirt roads in high range 2wd.
.........


Actually it is worse than you picture.

1. In 2wd - a wheel lifts, and the engine, now unloaded, but with the accelerator still in the same position, accelerates, with all the increased speed going at half the diff ratio to the unloaded wheel. When it grips again, the engine has to slow immediately to match the vehicle speed, putting a shock load on the entire drive train, including both half axles.

3. In four wheel drive, if one wheel loses grip, the engine cannot speed up, since it is constrained by the other axle, so the unloaded wheel does not speed up, and there is no shock load when it regains grip (there may be a little shock as slack is taken up.

4. I am quite prepared to believe that severe potholes or corrugations could damage axles on the 2/2a with the 2.25, especially if shock absorbers are not too good, because of the very large number of shocks.

5. A locked diff also prevents this shock load problem, but has the alternative axle breaking scenario that it is possible to put all the torque to one side when the other loses grip - suddenly increasing and decreasing this load as the other wheel loses grip with similar effect, and of course in low gear, even in high range, it is probably easy to get close to axle breaking loads without invoking fatigue failure due to repeated load cycling.

John

[chazza]

Thank you Aaron, for your wonderfully lucid answer and indeed to everyone else for your posts!

[isuzurover]

Actually it is worse than you picture.

1. In 2wd - a wheel lifts, and the engine, now unloaded, but with the accelerator still in the same position, accelerates, with all the increased speed going at half the diff ratio to the unloaded wheel. When it grips again, the engine has to slow immediately to match the vehicle speed, putting a shock load on the entire drive train, including both half axles.

3. In four wheel drive, if one wheel loses grip, the engine cannot speed up, since it is constrained by the other axle, so the unloaded wheel does not speed up, and there is no shock load when it regains grip (there may be a little shock as slack is taken up.

4. I am quite prepared to believe that severe potholes or corrugations could damage axles on the 2/2a with the 2.25, especially if shock absorbers are not too good, because of the very large number of shocks.

5. A locked diff also prevents this shock load problem, but has the alternative axle breaking scenario that it is possible to put all the torque to one side when the other loses grip - suddenly increasing and decreasing this load as the other wheel loses grip with similar effect, and of course in low gear, even in high range, it is probably easy to get close to axle breaking loads without invoking fatigue failure due to repeated load cycling.

John

Both my scenarios were in low range (4x4). The torque loads going through the axles in high range would be reduced by a factor of 2.5. The shock loading of a spinning wheel coming back down would in theory be the same though, but you could exert more than twice the torque to keep it turning in low (e.g. when foot is still on the throttle when it comes back down).

I accept your comments, however I think the only way you could break things in a stock IIA used only in high range would be if you were carrying heavy loads and/or towing.

[hodgo]

The last one I broke was clutch starting my 109 in reverse on concrete in the driveway. Somebody must have left the lights on. This turned out to be a tuff day as I had already broken a front axle and had to get my brother with his landcruiser to push me back up the street and back into the driveway. i hate listening to toyota owners
__________________________________________________ _____

When clutch starting in reverce you stand a good chance of doing damage to your crown wheel and pinion as the shock load is taken up on the back side of the c&p causeing teeth to be broken or weakend

[JDNSW]

Both my scenarios were in low range (4x4). The torque loads going through the axles in high range would be reduced by a factor of 2.5. The shock loading of a spinning wheel coming back down would in theory be the same though, but you could exert more than twice the torque to keep it turning in low (e.g. when foot is still on the throttle when it comes back down).

I accept your comments, however I think the only way you could break things in a stock IIA used only in high range would be if you were carrying heavy loads and/or towing.

Thanks; another thing I could add is that from what I've seen over the years, there is a good indication that axles have varied significantly in quality. Maybe different batches, perhaps going bad at the peak of Leyland's stewardship in the mid-late seventies. (For any Series Landrover today, it is anyone's guess where the axles in it currently came from!)

John

John

[djam1]

To answer the original question I am pretty sure that

Hi-Tough Engineering
U3/7 Ryecroft St
Carrara Qld 4211
Australia.

phone 61 (0)7 5530 4123

Will make you some 10 spline Hytuff axles 10 spline Hytuff axles will be stronger than 24 spline standard axles but they will probably be more expensive than fitting a second hand Salisbury diff centre.

[isuzurover]

Thanks; another thing I could add is that from what I've seen over the years, there is a good indication that axles have varied significantly in quality. Maybe different batches, perhaps going bad at the peak of Leyland's stewardship in the mid-late seventies. (For any Series Landrover today, it is anyone's guess where the axles in it currently came from!)

John

John

That is quite true. e.g. - RRC 10-spline axles seem quite strong for their size, as do county fronts (10/23).

The 24spl axles that replaced them (early '90's vintage) were made of cheese though. Dave Ashcroft tested a 24spl axle and it was no stronger than a 10/23 county axle (failed at the same stress).

I snapped a (non-genuine) 24spl salisbury axle with 32's and a 2.25D!!! Genuine series 3 (24spl) axles seem fairly strong though.

Most (orioginal) SII 10-spline axles could be expected to have suffered a fair bit of fatigue by now.

djam - Hytuff eng/MD axles ar an option, but a few people have broken them. If you are going to the expense - get a 24spl centre and buy 24spl Hytuff axles.

[djam1]

Funny you guys talk about differing quality
I put a detroit locker in the Salisbury on my stage 1 the original axles were given a fairly hard time but never even looked like twisting.
I bought a brand new genuine set that were in Leyland Australia wrapping paper. Within 4 months and with little off road work I twisted the new set.
I eventually gave up and bought Maxis last time I looked they were fine.
Interesting to compare the difference in quality between 10 spline diff centres
ranging from Series 2a to Range Rovers and Discoveries.
Discoveries are allegedly made from an inferior grade of steel?? Im sure there will be lots of opinions on that here

[Aaron IIA]

When clutch starting in reverce you stand a good chance of doing damage to your crown wheel and pinion as the shock load is taken up on the back side of the c&p causeing teeth to be broken or weakend

When push starting a car backwards, the side of the teeth engaged in the differential, and the direction of the twist applied to the axles and the drive shaft, is actually the same as when you apply drive to go forwards. The difference being that the direction of rotation has reversed. Think about it.

Aaron.

[rovercare]

When push starting a car backwards, the side of the teeth engaged in the differential, and the direction of the twist applied to the axles and the drive shaft, is actually the same as when you apply drive to go forwards. The difference being that the direction of rotation has reversed. Think about it.

Aaron.

Yep:)

[dandlandyman]

I've only ever broken short rear axles on my 2a, too. It's apparently because the shorter axle has less "torsional damping" than the long axle. Could be BS but it seems to hold true...

Dan.

[Dauntless]

Hi-Tough Engineering should therefore make them now.Do you have contact details for them?

[isuzurover]

Do you have contact details for them?

Hi’Tough Engineering (Barry Ward)
Ph: 07 5530 4123
Fax:07 5530 6312
Unit 3, No 7 Ryecroft St
Carrara, QLD, 4211