Is there a God?

[WhiteD3]

With the big P in town I thought I'd ask the question.

In the Poll people, do NOT post a comment PLEASE.

[101RRS]

I do not believe and I cannot publish my views on those who believe as it will cause issues.

However I do respect the right of people to follow what they believe and expect the same in return.

Cheers

Garry

[WhiteD3]

I do not believe and I cannot publish my views on those who believe as it will cause issues.

However I do respect the right of people to follow what they believe and expect the same in return.

Cheers

Garry

That's a shame Gaz. If you were a Hindu you could learn to read in your next life!:D:D:D

[simonr23]

sorry for replying. i would pick the 50/50, but probably reverse the belive/practice around. i do believe in a larger meaning, i'm just not a religious person.

[Panda]

I'm not replying to this post :p:wasntme:

[McDisco]

That's a shame Gaz. If you were a Hindu you could learn to read in your next life!:D:D:D

I know it says no comments....but....ROTFLMAO!!! :Rolling::Rolling:

[abaddonxi]

Tom Cruise, Tom Cruise.



Oh, I thought you said, 'is there a dog?'

:p

Cheers
Simon

[101RRS]

That's a shame Gaz. If you were a Hindu you could learn to read in your next life!:D:D:D

I have already decided what I want to be in my next life - something related to young ladies and I could get into trouble for it in this life:p

I am hoping things will be more enlightened in the next life.:D

Garry

[Fusion]

After seeing a couple of people down the street tonight i'm thinking the Monkey theory maybe right :D:D:D:p:wasntme:

[RobHay]

I have already decided what I want to be in my next life - something related to young ladies and I could get into trouble for it in this life:p

I am hoping things will be more enlightened in the next life.:D

Garry

What! The crotch piece on a pair of size 12 knickers?:angel::wasntme::twisted:...

Knickers, not the best thing in the world...but next to the best thing in the world

[DiscoStew]

With the big P in town I thought I'd ask the question.

In the Poll people, do NOT post a comment PLEASE.

Do you mean "Don't put your opinion in a post until after you have used the poll." or "Do not post because, even though you are interested in what people believe, you do not want to start a religious war"?

I don't believe in God but I believe in the God-given right to drive Landrovers.:D

and you left out the option "I believe in ALL of the Gods, even the crazy ones who drop coke bottles from the sky"

[WhiteD3]

Do you mean "Don't put your opinion in a post until after you have used the poll." or "Do not post because, even though you are interested in what people believe, you do not want to start a religious war"?

The 2nd one.

[DiscoStew]

The 2nd one.

May Perkūnas (or your God of choice) strike with lightning anyone who posts in this thread!!

[The ho har's]

I don't want to be struck by lightining:eek:

Mrs ho har:angel:

[dullbird]

interesting 2 pages of no comments please!!!!

[WhiteD3]

interesting 2 pages of no comments please!!!!

Yes, but at least there's no fighting .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............................yet!

Must be those Christian values....

[dullbird]

its ok if a fight breakes out its a one way ticket to the soapbox;)

[DiscoStew]

Yes, but at least there's no fighting .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............................yet!

Must be those Christian values....

So are you saying that Christian's are the only one's with .................................................. .....never mind.

[WhiteD3]

So are you saying that Christian's are the only one's with .................................................. .....never mind.

Nice try but I ain't biting:D

[moose]

no comments here
YouTube - George Carlin - Religion is bull****. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o)

[George130]

Firstly there is a dog.
I had one as a pet growing up:).

Otherwise we all know the truth.

Time for my audit so lets hope I reach level 9

[wally]

Interesting. Sixty-five percent of Australians call themselves Christians and yet forty-seven percent of Australian Land Rover owners would appear to be atheists.

[Fusion]

:twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted: We all own the devils machines :twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:

[Tombie]

Its an amazing human need isnt it..

To believe theres a reason for everything...

To have a reason to accept life as it is.... And that something better comes later...


From a book written 3rd hand, by blokes living in the Opium capital of the world.....


"Wow Man (inhales joint) that bush just caught fire... Write it in the book dude!!!"

[dobbo]

I actually envy the people who get so excited over their religious beliefs, considering the closest thing to religion is insurance, can you imagine someone knocking on your door in the early hours of a Saturday morning (read 10am) to share you the good news and benefits of their new GIO policy?

[JDNSW]

Interesting. Sixty-five percent of Australians call themselves Christians and yet forty-seven percent of Australian Land Rover owners would appear to be atheists.

Actually fifty-six percent at present, although this figure of course changes as people vote. But there was a news item in the last few days commenting that the sixty-five percent figure is partly an artifact of the way the census form is written - it has the option of "no religion" last, whereas logically it should be first. Many people filling in the form will go down the list until they get to the first one that is familiar, which is often the one they were brought up to, not necessarily their present belief.

Perhaps more telling is that regular church attendance in Australia is by some accounts down to single digits.

Bearing these comments in mind, it is likely that the figures for Landrover owners are, in fact, typical for Australians, despite the likely higher than typical proportion of foreign born members.

John

[WhiteD3]

Just a small point of which I'm sure you're all aware.







This poll is meaningless, interesting but meaningless.

The problem with this type of poll, phone polls and every other type of non-compulsory poll is that you really only get a vote from those who have, for whatever reason, a compulsion to vote.

ie. The poll has had 89 voters to date, of the 5168 AULRO members and countless guests.

The only real thing gained from the exercise is the demonstration that good manners have prevailed (so far) and there's been no arguments!

Interesting that there were 50 self confessed Darwinians, 1 scientologist, 11 having a bet each way (This is not Flemington you know!), 4 Americans and 23 of the faithful.

[Fusion]

Its an amazing human need isnt it..

To believe theres a reason for everything...

To have a reason to accept life as it is.... And that something better comes later...


From a book written 3rd hand, by blokes living in the Opium capital of the world.....


"Wow Man (inhales joint) that bush just caught fire... Write it in the book dude!!!"

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling: the bible would be a good read if it had plenty of " dudes " " far out's " and " totally awesome " ....... and he parted the sea ...... mate that blokes fully sick lets cross it .:D:D:D:angel::wasntme:.

[wally]

Just a small point of which I'm sure you're all aware.







This poll is meaningless, interesting but meaningless.

The problem with this type of poll, phone polls and every other type of non-compulsory poll is that you really only get a vote from those who have, for whatever reason, a compulsion to vote.

ie. The poll has had 89 voters to date, of the 5168 AULRO members and countless guests.

The only real thing gained from the exercise is the demonstration that good manners have prevailed (so far) and there's been no arguments!

Interesting that there were 50 self confessed Darwinians, 1 scientologist, 11 having a bet each way (This is not Flemington you know!), 4 Americans and 23 of the faithful.

It's one of the things I love about this forum. Good manners do prevail. It's frequented by interesting and well-mannered grown-ups (which sums up Land Rover owners generally). I suspect, though, that there are a few who are having to exercise considerable restraint.

[dobbo]

The Lord works in mysterious ways, a bit like Lucas electrics

[George130]

The Lord works in mysterious ways, a bit like Lucas electrics

Are you saying Lucus electrics is a religion?

[rangieman]

Well i beleive in Rudd or crudd to some , so there is a god:tease::2up::wasntme:

[DiscoStew]

Well i beleive in Rudd or crudd to some , so there is a god:tease::2up::wasntme:


I see you've decided to move the discussion towards something less likely to start a fight. ;)

[hiline]

I see you've decided to move the discussion towards something less likely to start a fight. ;)

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

rangieman wouldn't be part of that sort of thing ;)

[F4Phantom]

In the poll you left out agnostic so add one more item. The 50/50 does not cover it because it assumes you are a monkey man and not open to other ideas. Or perhaps the 50/50 means you are a man of science open to all ideas currently going with the latest monkey science.

[Scrubs23]

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

rangieman wouldn't be part of that sort of thing ;)

What do you mean?????:eek:

[CraigE]

You should have put Agnostic rather than 50/50.
I believe there is a God but do not have faith in one as such, especially with all the BS in religion, the Catholic Billions and us paying for the Papal visit.

[Ralph1Malph]

I did in fact vote, but didn't particularly like the choices:angel:.


Everyone forgets about us Jedi:mad::mad:

Ralph

[hiline]

Well i beleive in Rudd or crudd to some , so there is a god:tease::2up::wasntme:


I see you've decided to move the discussion towards something less likely to start a fight. ;)


:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

rangieman wouldn't be part of that sort of thing ;)


What do you mean?????:eek:

just stirring Rangieman(Chris)
there was a big heated debate about Rudd thing a while back;)

thats what i was meaning

[amtravic1]

My "no comment" is that I believe in me.

Ian

[Fusion]

Personally i don't believe at all ...... my thoughts are we do everything ourselves ..... we work our butts off to put food on the table and to have money to live ..... we train ourselves to be good at sport and the work that we do .
I have won plenty of races in speedway but that was due to a lot of money and practice and determination ...... Didn't see the lord all mighty open a wallet and say heres a few bucks go out and buy the good stuff .... Nuh mate a few more laps of practice will lead you in the lords way ...... WRONG !!!!! did it myself with a heap of hard work .
And if this all mighty fella was around i'm sure he wouldn't let all the 3rd world country's die of starvation and disease ....... come on people take the blinkers off and have a look around .......... my 2 cents






had people with suites turn up at the door this morning selling books ...... not a fan of that ...... not at 7.30am .... just had to vent a little .

[45tr0]

I am a self made man...

... and I worship my maker.

:)

[tony]

Of course there is a God..

















....what do you lot wont now.....

I'm fed up with you land rover drivers, its Oh god bloody thing wont go

again or Jesus Christ that hurt, (when the spanner sliped) you lot wont

the best of both worlds you even try talking to my partner Lucas (Prince

of Darkness)

but on a lighter note....no there is not


Tony

[LavisLane]

Has anyone noticed that pope Eggs Benedict looks and sounds a bit like the bad guy the Darth Vader works for?!?!

THink about...

[stevo68]

Personally i don't believe at all ...... my thoughts are we do everything ourselves ..... we work our butts off to put food on the table and to have money to live ..... we train ourselves to be good at sport and the work that we do .
I have won plenty of races in speedway but that was due to a lot of money and practice and determination ...... Didn't see the lord all mighty open a wallet and say heres a few bucks go out and buy the good stuff .... Nuh mate a few more laps of practice will lead you in the lords way ...... WRONG !!!!! did it myself with a heap of hard work .
And if this all mighty fella was around i'm sure he wouldn't let all the 3rd world country's die of starvation and disease ....... come on people take the blinkers off and have a look around .......... my 2 centsOf course each to their own, I do believe in God, though don't necessarily follow any particular religion. Religion to me is like football teams, they are all playing the same game, but the culture, beliefs maybe different.

In terms of the bolded parts, maybe this is an explanation:

If someone prays for patience, you think God gives them patience? Or does he give them the opportunity to be patient? If he prayed for courage, does God give him courage, or does he give him opportunities to be courageous? If someone prayed for the family to be closer, do you think God zaps them with warm fuzzy feelings, or does he give them opportunities to love each other? Basically its called "free will".

I often also think in regards to issues such as the 3rd world etc...but is it God or is it mankind allowing it?? We ( being the likes of US,UK and Oz for example) spend billions on defence, what if that was spent on aid instead? Is it not also the responsibility of the Governments of those countries to look after their people?

Ultimately, for many there is the issue of who really knows, none of us can be truly sure. I still do my head in thinking of which came first...the chicken or the egg :),

Regards

Stevo

[x-box]

Well said Stevo
Somehow I wonder who has the blinkers on??
Also good to see there are so many self-made men on this forum.
I get the feeling you all expect God to just give and give and give, but what are you prepared to give in return, or give first? Have you ever gotten groceries or petrol or spare parts without paying? You have to give something to get something in return. God is not into handouts, but rather into giving you the opportunity to achieve what you want. If you give your kids love, you'll get love in return - simple. All God wants is a bit of faith - you ever considered that? You'd all be surprised what can happen.
I'll be bold enough to stand up and say that I believe - and I have reason to, but unfortunately it depends on your perspective of who's got the blinkers on. Suppose it's easier to walk with the masses and ridicule the Pope or other believers, than to stand for something that can't be seen - hence that's why it's called faith. If it's not faith it's a fact. (btw i am not catholic - but as Stevo said there are many teams, but still only one God)
You all have faith that you'll still be alive tomorrow morning - see, it's not so difficult to have faith. Just because you cant see it (or rather WANT to see it) does'nt mean it's not there. Have you ever seen an oxygen molecule?
Well , i have faith that my landrover will start tomorrow, so i'll leave it at that.

[Fusion]

All fair comments stevo ;). As said they are my thoughts and i'm not speaking for anyone else .I have no problems with people believing as it is their life and can do what they want ..... just not a believer myself .
my thoughts ....... I think we make our own opportunities happen through hard work and lots of thought . If the big fella was real i think it would be noticeable and you would be able to tell if you had a helping hand . everyone has been at rock bottom at some stage of their life and i have and lost everything and have started again. I made things happen myself and got no help from anyone and still having a hard time but getting there . If he was real there would of been some help but i seen nothing .
I've been dealt a lot of bad cards in the last few years one of them loosing my dad at age 13 ( he was 36 ) . If he is real he is showing it in a real bad way ..... and if he is real and does show his face i'll punch it .

and as for what doesn't kill us makes us stronger is ok but a person can only cop that a few time before breaking down . as said my thoughts .

[taff]

Of course each to their own, I do believe in God, though don't necessarily follow any particular religion. Religion to me is like football teams, they are all playing the same game, but the culture, beliefs maybe different.

In terms of the bolded parts, maybe this is an explanation:

If someone prays for patience, you think God gives them patience? Or does he give them the opportunity to be patient? If he prayed for courage, does God give him courage, or does he give him opportunities to be courageous? If someone prayed for the family to be closer, do you think God zaps them with warm fuzzy feelings, or does he give them opportunities to love each other? Basically its called "free will".

I often also think in regards to issues such as the 3rd world etc...but is it God or is it mankind allowing it?? We ( being the likes of US,UK and Oz for example) spend billions on defence, what if that was spent on aid instead? Is it not also the responsibility of the Governments of those countries to look after their people?

Ultimately, for many there is the issue of who really knows, none of us can be truly sure. I still do my head in thinking of which came first...the chicken or the egg :),

Regards

Stevo


then we'd be the third world countries :D

[defmec]

have a look at the documentary zegiest got some theory's that would really scare Christians

[DiscoStew]

If someone prays for patience, you think God gives them patience? Or does he give them the opportunity to be patient? If he prayed for courage, does God give him courage, or does he give him opportunities to be courageous? If someone prayed for the family to be closer, do you think God zaps them with warm fuzzy feelings, or does he give them opportunities to love each other? Basically its called "free will".


Which is why God gave us Landrover. Plenty of opportunities to be patient, courageous and spend time with the family.

[WhiteD3]

For the record, I'm not religious in any sense, and I've seen too many bad things happen to believe in any benevolent being who'll look after me if I worship him.

Take this story (and you need to read the whole thing)

Hope dies as bodies exchanged - World - smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/hope-dies-as-bodies-exchanged/2008/07/16/1216162958835.html)

Two sides, same god (although Jesus plays a lessor role for some). They use religion to justify these........atrocities (can't think of another word). Where's God? You'd think he'd (or She as the case maybe) would pop in and say "Wow, enough is enough", but no.

[carjunkieanon]

If you can add the option 'Yes there's a God - and he became a man 2000 years ago.' - I'll tick that one.

r

[wally]

I believe in facts that are established through a rigorous process of research, debate, and peer review among established and appropriately qualified professionals. I believe in rigorously testing hypotheses to establish probabilities and degrees of significance. I believe in evidence. I don't believe in dogma and superstition. Science (or anyone else) has failed to show a shred of evidence for the existence of a God. When I see evidence then I'll believe.

[wally]

...Anyway why can't we have a religion based on Land Rovers. It would be so much more fun.

[Ralph1Malph]

I did in fact vote, but didn't particularly like the choices:angel:.


Everyone forgets about us Jedi:mad::mad:

Ralph


Forgot the piccie!

[DiscoStew]

:Rolling:

Note the Disco in the background.


Has anyone else noticed that just as this thread looks like it is about to be buried on page 2 it is resurrected??

[Gordon]

Don't know if there is a God

But I do believe in St Paedophile!!

Why do old men walk about in ornate Frocks.

Now who is Queen of the Desert??

[x-box]

I believe in facts that are established through a rigorous process of research, debate, and peer review among established and appropriately qualified professionals????. I believe in rigorously testing hypotheses to establish probabilities and degrees of significance. I believe in evidence. I don't believe in dogma and superstition. Science (or anyone else) has failed to show a shred of evidence for the existence of a God. When I see evidence then I'll believe.
My point exactly, then it is fact and not faith, and you have missed the whole point. Suppose people cured from cancer and severe osteoporosis is no evidence, or a person that has been in a wheelchair for 14 years that walks and runs either, or people born blind that sees again after 30-odd years does'nt happen? All after being prayed for, and a lot of it instantly, but if you're not there you won't see it and thus not believe. Pity. God is not into grandstanding and gives humans the free will to make choices.

As far as a helping hand goes wannalandy - you won't see it even if it hits you in the face - for you are a self-made man. Good philosophy to take all the credit for your success and blame all the tragedy in your life on God? Smacks of double standards in my opinion

[DiscoStew]

Don't know if there is a God

But I do believe in St Paedophile!!

Why do old men walk about in ornate Frocks.

Now who is Queen of the Desert??

While I think that the churches have handled this issue extremely poorly and the clergy seem to be over-represented in the ranks of paedophiles (which might have more to do with reporting than reality), I must take exception at any inference that all priests are pedos. The vast majority that I have met, and I have met a lot of them, are very genuine, caring people who have dedicated their lives to helping others. We might argue that the organisation they have joined is less than ideal, and the God they believe in doesn't exist, but the bottom line is their intentions are honourable.

[wally]

While I think that the churches have handled this issue extremely poorly and the clergy seem to be over-represented in the ranks of paedophiles (which might have more to do with reporting than reality), I must take exception at any inference that all priests are pedos. The vast majority that I have met, and I have met a lot of them, are very genuine, caring people who have dedicated their lives to helping others. We might argue that the organisation they have joined is less than ideal, and the God they believe in doesn't exist, but the bottom line is their intentions are honourable.

Fair enough. People do good things because they are good people and not because of religion. Those people would no doubt still be caring people with the same honourable intentions in the absence of religion.

[wally]

My point exactly, then it is fact and not faith, and you have missed the whole point. Suppose people cured from cancer and severe osteoporosis is no evidence, or a person that has been in a wheelchair for 14 years that walks and runs either, or people born blind that sees again after 30-odd years does'nt happen? All after being prayed for, and a lot of it instantly, but if you're not there you won't see it and thus not believe. Pity. God is not into grandstanding and gives humans the free will to make choices.

As far as a helping hand goes wannalandy - you won't see it even if it hits you in the face - for you are a self-made man. Good philosophy to take all the credit for your success and blame all the tragedy in your life on God? Smacks of double standards in my opinion


I'm more interested in reason than in faith, and I know that, viewed logically, the "God" theory is highly improbable. As Richard Dawkins points out, for those who haven't read "The God Delusion", there could be teapots orbiting the earth. Just because we can't see them doesn't mean they're not there. But it's very, very unlikely. Your evidence is not evidence at all. You're merely drawing your own conclusions to suit the things that you want to believe without any factual basis. Why is it a pity that I don't believe? Does that somehow make it less real for you? Frankly I think it's a pity when people choose to abandon reason and logic (or worse, contradict and undermine science).

[x-box]

Your evidence is not evidence at all. You're merely drawing your own conclusions to suit the things that you want to believe without any factual basis. Sorry but what i said is that i have seen and know people that have actually seen certain things happen that goes so far against locig and/or science that it's not even funny - yet it happened Why is it a pity that I don't believe? not at all - your choice - but ever try to read books to the affirmative and not the negative? you seem to only read stuff that proves God not to exist Does that somehow make it less real for you? no, not at all Frankly I think it's a pity when people choose to abandon reason and logic (or worse, contradict and undermine science) this point we can discuss till end of time - for the record i also like science, it has it's uses. And i think it's a pity when people can't accept things that are a bit out there, but still has heaps of facts and proof anyway. Same as your science can prove certain things - just so it cannot disprove other things .

I will leave it at this now - before we start a war :cool:

Thank goodness we live in a society where we can air our views and continue to drive Landrovers

[DiscoStew]

Fair enough. People do good things because they are good people and not because of religion. Those people would no doubt still be caring people with the same honourable intentions in the absence of religion.

I agree and unfortunately perhaps some would have achieved even more goodness if they had not joined a religion.

[MacMan]

This is going to be interesting!

At least I believe it will.

:p

[rovercare]

You called?





:D

[Scouse]

I'm an atheist, but it's not by choice.


























It's the way God made me.

[Rangier Rover]

Religion causes war :(:( I'd believe there is but there are many variables:eek: Never seem to find time to worry about it to much;)

[Fusion]

My point exactly, then it is fact and not faith, and you have missed the whole point. Suppose people cured from cancer and severe osteoporosis is no evidence, or a person that has been in a wheelchair for 14 years that walks and runs either, or people born blind that sees again after 30-odd years does'nt happen? All after being prayed for, and a lot of it instantly, but if you're not there you won't see it and thus not believe. Pity. God is not into grandstanding and gives humans the free will to make choices.

As far as a helping hand goes wannalandy - you won't see it even if it hits you in the face - for you are a self-made man. Good philosophy to take all the credit for your success and blame all the tragedy in your life on God? Smacks of double standards in my opinion


Hmmmmmmm , double standards ....... Funny how when something good happens it's the work of "God" ....... And something bad happens it's the work of the devil ?????

[moose]

I'm an atheist, but it's not by choice.

It's the way God made me.
:lol2::Rolling::clap2:

[wally]

I will leave it at this now - before we start a war :cool:

Thank goodness we live in a society where we can air our views and continue to drive Landrovers

Nobody's starting a war:angel:. It's a discussion - and one that's worth having. The last thing we need is for it to be a subject that's so sacred that we can't discuss it without offending somebody.

You're right. It's wonderful to live in a society where we can express ourselves freely and drive Land Rovers. Both are rights that I couldn't live without.

[Barra1]

Whoa....a bit confusion here. Seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the difference between God and religion.

Belief in God is not a religion.

One could say a fascination with a particular subject, even worship, is a religion. Like a fascination with Land Rovers - other 4WD owners would say Land Rover Owners treat their vehicles like god.

Anyway, 2008 - and in this day and age it is "cool" not to believe in God.

And why should we? This is the age of technology - jeez, this Old Fella can't even begin to list the plasma, cyber, ram, giga-stuff of this day and age - much less even mention that demon-like little box that sits under my driver's seat in the Defender.:twisted:

So, again, why should we believe? Science has explained everything. Like I said - pretty damned cool.

Better be sure about that though, very sure. Otherwise things can heat up a little - or more than a little.

Though, always wondered why The Non Believers are so passionate in extolling the reasons why God doesn't exist - a bit like The Suited Ones who knock on the doors I suppose.

Funny thing, no-one has ever being able to prove to me that God doesn't exist.

Yep, Darwin had a theory, but it is only one bloke's opinion. Jeez, AJSLRD and a couple of the boys of the North East Mob have an opinion on my opinion when I have an opinion on some of the Toyota blokes when I have been drinking and when it gets down to it, it is only an opinion.

A mate, a good mate, said on his death-bed - as a result of the sh*t he copped in Vietnam - God didn't do this to me, man did. God simply gave me the freedom to do this. I fought for that freedom.

Learnt a lot from that bloke.

[stevo68]

Religion causes war :(:( I'd believe there is but there are many variables:eek: Never seem to find time to worry about it to much;) I've often said that myself, that religion is the biggest cause of war throughout time.....but is it? Or is it man causes wars and uses religion as an excuse? Putting it another way, neighbours can go to "war" over trivial matters as a dog barking, loud music etc............religion doesn't play a part. Man might go to war and be a part of a religion....but ultimately it is man going to war...is it not?

Regards

Stevo

[stevo68]

Religion causes war :(:( I'd believe there is but there are many variables:eek: Never seem to find time to worry about it to much;) I've often said that myself, that religion is the biggest cause of war throughout time.....but is it? Or is it man causes wars and uses religion as an excuse? Putting it another way, neighbours can go to "war" over trivial matters as a dog barking, loud music etc............religion doesn't play a part. Man might go to war and be a part of a religion....but ultimately it is man going to war...is it not?

Regards

Stevo

[MacMan]

Funny thing, no-one has ever being able to prove to me that God doesn't exist.

"Looking for the black cat, in the dark room... that isn't there."

(I left out the bit about the blind man so as not to cause offence!)

:p

Thanks Rowan Atkinson.

[Robert]

No, I believe the postion is still vacant

[ianporter]

One of the underlying traits of this thread is the assumption by so many that God exists simply to give us a comfortable life. He is to keep quiet and leave us to our own devices, but he is to be held responsible for anything that goes wrong! It is not surprising that so many reject such an idea of God - indeed it ought to be rejected because it is untrue and so doesn't make sense.

If we want to try to understand God and therefore come to understand this world and the purpose of our lives, it is a big mistake to see our own egos as the yardstick by which all else is to be measured - of course things inevitably go wrong from there.

When I was 19 I realised that I needed to come to grips with who Jesus claimed to be. I knew I had to answer the question - Did Jesus rise bodily from the dead? My response to him would be determined by my conclusions. In the course of a clinical, objective, 'judicial' inquiry I found the evidence to be overwhelming and totally compelling. I felt that he only honest response to my convictions was to become a Christian, which I did 33 years ago. I have never regretted that decision. The Apostle Paul said, "if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.” (1Corinthians 15:14-19)

The New Testament was written because of Jesus' bodily resurrection - an event witnessed by hundreds of different people in different places and times within a six-week period after his death and before his ascension. None of them expected it to happen but its reality and power transformed their lives (and ours) forever.

It has been said, 'Religion is man's answer to God - Jesus is God's answer to religion'. If you want to encounter God's answer to religion, have a long, close look at the real Jesus in the pages of the New Testament. He's so very different from the 'soft-roader' that people always seem to want him to be.

[F4Phantom]

I thought this was going to fade but I am still getting all the emails telling me its still alive. So now I am going to give my opinion too!

BTW I have not read all the thread so I may be repeating.

upfront
1. I was religious for much of my life.
2. I am now a scientist

I used to try and reconcile the Christian faith with science and for a long time was quite happy, but in the end there was just to much logic showing that all religions (and I think the Christian take has the most logic) were just to far from reality to work for me.

We have Jesus who through very well established methods did exist as a person, likely had a wife and kids but as for the extra curriculum activities they are not very well established. There lived a long time before Jesus, buddah, he also performed miracles, and guess what some of them were? Walking on water, feeding heaps of people with a few scraps of food, and some more, Jesus did all these stock standard miracles too. IMO Jesus was likely teaching some budhist principles with a Jewish twist.

Jesus was documented as being raised from the dead & although we are told hundreds of people saw him, we don't have records from those people, we are just told about it. This means the bible is not worth the testimony of hundreds of people.

To believe in Jesus being any more than a man you must also include the world wide flood, which did not happen and is so easy to prove in science its a joke. However science has also shown there was a localised flood in the middle easy at approx that time and this makes it easy to conclude that the story got passed on and tweaked into what we have today.

We also have Mt DNA which shows the spread of the human population across the globe with out of africa model. This model now has substantial evidence and goes against the adam and eve solution. Black skin also goes against the bible version of how it came about. We also have several other humanoid species prior to ours evolving.

In the end its impossible to mention all the religious problems but god is now becoming increasingly a god of the 'gaps' in science as when knowledge becomes available to explain a problem, god gets moved out.

This means to be Christian or other, you need simply to ignore human understanding and learning and then just believe what ever you want.

There is only one problem with all this and that is religious experience. EG if john comes to my place and tells me he had a beer with god last night and god said he's angry with the world and gonna drown all those without a houseboat, there is not a lot I can say to tell him he's wrong cause he saw it and its as real as real can be for him. Can he prove it? no. should I believe him? depends. but its true for him and thats all that matters. Any real scientist should accept any new information for study regardless of the source, but if the information cannot stack up to proper methods of proof then it can be disregarded. And this is why we have scientists vs religious. The scientists cant see how the religious ideas make any sense, where as the religious people dont give a damn, they know what they know and thats enough.

end.

[DiscoStew]

I thought this was going to fade but I am still getting all the emails telling me its still alive.

As I said earlier, it just keeps on getting resurrected.

Given that we are all still playing nicely together: my take on it all:

The widely held view of a single all-knowing omnipresent God does not make sense and is a fabrication that has been used by parents and dictators for self-serving purposes eg parents telling children that cleanliness is next to godliness.

The big bang on its own does not make a lot of sense either.

Intelligent design has plenty of flaws and contradicts my understanding of God. Why the heck didn't he build us perfect in the first place.

Conclusion: if we were made in God's image then the spiritual world is probably run by a committee but I will never know, I do not need to know and I don't care. Jesus' basic message seems like a good one to base civilised life on.
As my catholic religion teacher once said "If your only motivation for behaving well is to go to heaven then you are probably not getting there."

So treat people nice because it is a rational thing to do if you want to live in a civilised world. If that also happens to get me through the pearly gates then that is a bonus.

Too much time is wasted on the church when it could be spent doing what Jesus wanted you to do: helping people.


BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY: I refuse to believe the departed are watching down on us. I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY do not want my Nanna to see what I do to my wife!!!!!

[Morgan]

Ha this is pretty good 8 pages of not posting :) it took me ages to read through all this, and it looks like you are all repeating the same thing some where in the thread.so to simplify believeing makes some people happy. not believeing makes some people happy too. and it's man's fault for killing eachother. so its all good in the world:)

[wally]

Whoa....a bit confusion here. Seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the difference between God and religion.

Belief in God is not a religion.

One could say a fascination with a particular subject, even worship, is a religion. Like a fascination with Land Rovers - other 4WD owners would say Land Rover Owners treat their vehicles like god.

Anyway, 2008 - and in this day and age it is "cool" not to believe in God.

And why should we? This is the age of technology - jeez, this Old Fella can't even begin to list the plasma, cyber, ram, giga-stuff of this day and age - much less even mention that demon-like little box that sits under my driver's seat in the Defender.:twisted:

So, again, why should we believe? Science has explained everything. Like I said - pretty damned cool.

Better be sure about that though, very sure. Otherwise things can heat up a little - or more than a little.

Though, always wondered why The Non Believers are so passionate in extolling the reasons why God doesn't exist - a bit like The Suited Ones who knock on the doors I suppose.

Funny thing, no-one has ever being able to prove to me that God doesn't exist.

Yep, Darwin had a theory, but it is only one bloke's opinion. Jeez, AJSLRD and a couple of the boys of the North East Mob have an opinion on my opinion when I have an opinion on some of the Toyota blokes when I have been drinking and when it gets down to it, it is only an opinion.

A mate, a good mate, said on his death-bed - as a result of the sh*t he copped in Vietnam - God didn't do this to me, man did. God simply gave me the freedom to do this. I fought for that freedom.

Learnt a lot from that bloke.

"Belief in God is not a religion" No, but if you do believe in God then you are by definition religious. Otherwise you are either agnostic or atheistic. These are distinct categories into which everyone must fall. If you believe in God just a little bit then you are religious.

"Anyway, 2008 - and in this day and age it is "cool" not to believe in God." It has nothing to do with cool. What's happening is that we're coming out of an age in which Christians simply would not tolerate anyone doubting their beliefs and into a time when there is more open debate on the subject. Atheists are realising that they're not alone, that they're allowed to express their views, and they're coming out of the woodwork. Atheists have been around all along - you just haven't noticed them as much. It would be very sad to think that anyone was claiming not to believe in God because they thought it was cool - but I doubt they are.

"Yep, Darwin had a theory, but it is only one bloke's opinion." No it isn't. Biological evolution is fact, and there is overwhelming evidence in support of it. No credible biologist today would consider it an unproven theory or indeed an opinion. Science isn't about opinions. Science is about seeking out and extracting evidence to explain phenomena in the natural world. When it was published "On The Origin of Species" was met with hysteria because it contradicted established religious teachings. Far from being a bloke's opinion, it went on to become recognised as one of the defining moments in the entire history of science as we know it. If we had been guided by the church we still wouldn't know about biological evolution and that would be a tragedy. We would have no understanding of geological processes, of plate tectonics, of genetics, no sensible means of interpreting fossil records, etc,etc.

One of the great problems I have with religion is the way in which it will often systematically undermine and contradict science in the public arena. Some religions are worse than others, admittedly. Religions often have a vested interest in suppressing scientific knowledge because it is feared (understandably) that contradictions between science and religion will diminish the church's credibility.

[Tombie]

In terms of the bolded parts, maybe this is an explanation:

If someone prays for patience, you think God gives them patience? Or does he give them the opportunity to be patient? If he prayed for courage, does God give him courage, or does he give him opportunities to be courageous? If someone prayed for the family to be closer, do you think God zaps them with warm fuzzy feelings, or does he give them opportunities to love each other? Basically its called "free will".

Regards

Stevo

Hey Stevo

Been watching any movies starring Morgan Freeman lately :cool:

[Tombie]

Heres a simpler take on it....

Maybe were just "here".. Then Dead... Whats so bad about that?


And, having a mate (who is so removed from religion its amazing) with a Lutheran Minister for a father has allowed me some interesting theological discussions...

Heres on from a High ranking member of the Lutheran Church...

Me... "So, where is God?"

Minister... "God is EVERWHERE, in EVERTHING and EVERYONE"

Me... "So, where is the Devil?"

Minister... "The Devil lives where God isn't"

At this point I'm now pondering a paradox... Theres no space for him to exist, because theres no room left... 'God' has taken it all....

I debated it further, and got nowhere, just the same circular discussion...

Oh, yes, and the best response to a question (and any religions get out of Jail free card)...

"It's Gods Will, thats all....."

You cant even debate that statement, the answer just keeps being given...
No basis, logic etc... just the same answer...




Theres also a...

Boogey Man
Santa Clause
Easter Bunny
Tooth Fairy

There must be... Almost EVERY kid (JW's excluded) believes whole heartedly in all of the above. They have FAITH in all of them existing...

[wally]

One of the underlying traits of this thread is the assumption by so many that God exists simply to give us a comfortable life. He is to keep quiet and leave us to our own devices, but he is to be held responsible for anything that goes wrong! It is not surprising that so many reject such an idea of God - indeed it ought to be rejected because it is untrue and so doesn't make sense.

If we want to try to understand God and therefore come to understand this world and the purpose of our lives, it is a big mistake to see our own egos as the yardstick by which all else is to be measured - of course things inevitably go wrong from there.

When I was 19 I realised that I needed to come to grips with who Jesus claimed to be. I knew I had to answer the question - Did Jesus rise bodily from the dead? My response to him would be determined by my conclusions. In the course of a clinical, objective, 'judicial' inquiry I found the evidence to be overwhelming and totally compelling. I felt that he only honest response to my convictions was to become a Christian, which I did 33 years ago. I have never regretted that decision. The Apostle Paul said, "if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.” (1Corinthians 15:14-19)

The New Testament was written because of Jesus' bodily resurrection - an event witnessed by hundreds of different people in different places and times within a six-week period after his death and before his ascension. None of them expected it to happen but its reality and power transformed their lives (and ours) forever.

It has been said, 'Religion is man's answer to God - Jesus is God's answer to religion'. If you want to encounter God's answer to religion, have a long, close look at the real Jesus in the pages of the New Testament. He's so very different from the 'soft-roader' that people always seem to want him to be.

Oh.

[Disco300Tdi]

I have seen God, years ago....






He wore No.5 for Geelong.
Now son of God wears No.29

[Tombie]

What if its just like on "Stargate" :wasntme: