Toyota Prius vs Jeep Patriot fuel consumption

[moose]

Just found this on the fifth gear tv website. Toyota Prius vs Jeep Patriot: the great MPG test features - Fifth Gear (http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?lnk=601&featureid=1196&description=Toyota%20Prius%20vs%20Jeep%20Patriot:% 20the%20great%20MPG%20test)

In short, they ran a fuel consumption test between the two cars over 160 miles.



So, we decided to conduct the ultimate test, pitting the Prius (easily the world's biggest-selling hybrid with just over 1 million sold to date) against the devil's own tool; an SUV. Our choice of SUV was simple. Jeep was recognised in 2007 for having the most improved fuel consumption across its model range, and has won a Green Award for the Patriot. The Patriot Diesel is one of the most economical 4x4's available on the market today (thanks to its VW engine) and boasts lower CO2 emissions than, say, a Renault Scenic 1.6.

Had we relied on the onboard computers, the Prius would have won by a landslide, as by the end of the trip they read 57mpg and 42mpg for the Prius and Jeep respectively.
However, to get the real figure, we calculated consumption based on how much fuel each car had used over the 160 miles. The result was astonishing: both cars had used nearly identical amounts of fuel. The Jeep had averaged 38.9 mpg - only 3.1 mpg less than its computer had recorded. However, the computer of the Prius appeared to be telling whoppers: it actually achieved just 39.9 mpg - a massive 17.1 mpg less than it had claimed.

[vnx205]

A recent episode of Top Gear compared the Prius and a BMW M3.

It won't surprise anyone who is a TG fan that they managed to create a test where the M3 used less fuel than the Prius. They just drove the Prius flat out round the track.

It was good entertainment, but did actually make a serious point at the end.


If you ever wanted proof that Americans either have no sense of humour at all or else they just don't get British humour, have a look at this article.

Why Top Gear got it ALL WRONG in 'Prius vs. BMW M3' : TreeHugger (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/07/top-gear-prius-hybrid-bmw-m3-video-wrong.php)

They complain that the test was unfair. Well duhh!

[moose]

yeah i saw that one too. I found this more interesting coz it's a "real world" situation, and the prius still came out second best.

[mike 90 RR]

Components that have been added for fuel economy

isn't it strange that with the progress of computer add-ons ... Extra engineering breakthrough technology ... plus the 40 years difference between a 1968 Mini and a Prius

Now what was the fuel economy of a Mini??? :angel:

[mcrover]

So in other words, I would be better off going back to a 120Y than a Prius if it was fuel consumption I was concerned about.

Consistant 45 to 50Mpg out of the 120y driving the wheels off the thing.:D










As much as you can drive the wheels off a 120y


The coupe wasnt as good, twin webbers and a cam in a 1400 meant that I could only achieve 40Mpg on a long trip and 30 odd driving it like hell :p

[mike 90 RR]

So in other words, I would be better off going back to a 120Y than a Prius if it was fuel consumption I was concerned about.

Consistant 45 to 50Mpg out of the 120y driving the wheels off the thing.:D

As much as you can drive the wheels off a 120y


The coupe wasnt as good, twin webbers and a cam in a 1400 meant that I could only achieve 40Mpg on a long trip and 30 odd driving it like hell :p

The Prius is ALL ABOUT FUEL ECONOMY and as you just mentioned the fuel numbers from 36 years ago
You can now see how conned we all are in their "acheivements" :wasntme:

The 120Y ... I remember them ... Sit in the front seat to drive and your head was looking out through the rear door window to see whats coming left & right

Yep .. they were big on space :BigThumb: but were great to carve up & slip in a chevy motor

Hang on ... Have a look at how Datsun 120 should really go like
YouTube - v8 datsun 120y burnout (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uoLAXLfnow)

Now theres progress!!! :p

[mcrover]

The Prius is ALL ABOUT FUEL ECONOMY and as you just mentioned the fuel numbers from 36 years ago
You can now see how conned we all are in their "acheivements" :wasntme:

The 120Y ... I remember them ... Sit in the front seat to drive and your head was looking out through the rear door window to see whats coming left & right

Yep .. they were big on space :BigThumb: but were great to carve up & slip in a chevy motor

Hang on ... Have a look at how Datsun 120 should really go like
YouTube - v8 datsun 120y burnout (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uoLAXLfnow)

Now theres progress!!! :p

My Coupe could pull a good burn out.....and it had a tiny little 1400cc engine......and weighed 700kgs


The Prius would be much better if you could charge it up from the mains grid over night rather than relying on the engine to charge the battery bank.

The problem I see with Hybrids is the "you dont get nothing for nothing" principle.

You will always make less energy through driving a car and charging a battery bank than if you were driving the car alone.

On top of that, the extra weight and load from the electronics, the engine is working relatively hard all the time.

[mike 90 RR]

MCROVER

I actually don't think that manufacturers / want to / are doing the right thing

You've seen the Full electrics being made via Porsche (Arnold Schwarzenegger drives one) plus that documentary on "Who killed the electric car" where GMC tested about 150 on the public then crushed the lot

I think that there real main issue is that they can't bear to remove the dependence of the internal combustion engine

To do that: then this would be the demise of the entire Auto mechanical market
Mechanics , service stations , Auto parts , manufacturers , Aftermarket companies etc would all be unemployed /// Global!!

The only industry that would survive is the electronics industry and to be a Auto spark would be in a very commanding position

If you noticed, GM is on the verge of bankruptcy due to there shortsightedness of the changing market

THE technology IS there .... They just don't want the Electric company to be the energy source

Enjoy the full force of the mighty V8 while you can

My thought's anyway ;)

[mcrover]

MCROVER

I actually don't think that manufacturers / want to / are doing the right thing

You've seen the Full electrics being made via Porsche (Arnold Schwarzenegger drives one) plus that documentary on "Who killed the electric car" where GMC tested about 150 on the public then crushed the lot

I think that there real main issue is that they can't bear to remove the dependence of the internal combustion engine

To do that: then this would be the demise of the entire Auto mechanical market
Mechanics , service stations , Auto parts , manufacturers , Aftermarket companies etc would all be unemployed /// Global!!
The only industry that would survive is the electronics industry and to be a Auto spark would be in a very commanding position

If you noticed, GM is on the verge of bankruptcy due to there shortsightedness of the changing market

THE technology IS there .... They just don't want the Electric company to be the energy source


My thought's anyway ;)


The rest I pretty much agree with but what I have highlighted in red wouldnt be true.

Cars have a lot more parts on them than just engines and gearboxes and a car cant be a car without wheels brakes and suspention.

Im a mechanic on a golf course, I have had electric greens mowers that can operate on heavy load for 5hrs before needing a recharge and golf carts that can drive stop start for 8hrs before a recharge so the technology has been around for a lot longer than people realise.

Electric forklifts and other transport and maintenance machinery have been around for decades and the only real changes have been in the control systems have gone from relays and variable resistors then to solid state electronics to computer controled.

The parts suppliers etc wont be halmed other than the oil companies as they wont sell as much fuel and engine oil but companies that make engines and engine parts may have to look at making something else.

As far as mechainics go, it is just looking at it from a different way, you send the rewinding jobs to the Auto sparky and you replace brushes your self, you buy the testing tools and do a bit of learning.

Even saying all this..........I hate electronics on 4wds so as far as Im concerned.......I will still have my Disco but for the second car, I would do an electric conversion on the carolla......If there was one available:D

[Debacle]

The rest I pretty much agree with but what I have highlighted in red wouldnt be true.

Cars have a lot more parts on them than just engines and gearboxes and a car cant be a car without wheels brakes and suspention.

Im a mechanic on a golf course, I have had electric greens mowers that can operate on heavy load for 5hrs before needing a recharge and golf carts that can drive stop start for 8hrs before a recharge so the technology has been around for a lot longer than people realise.

Electric forklifts and other transport and maintenance machinery have been around for decades and the only real changes have been in the control systems have gone from relays and variable resistors then to solid state electronics to computer controled.

The parts suppliers etc wont be halmed other than the oil companies as they wont sell as much fuel and engine oil but companies that make engines and engine parts may have to look at making something else.

As far as mechainics go, it is just looking at it from a different way, you send the rewinding jobs to the Auto sparky and you replace brushes your self, you buy the testing tools and do a bit of learning.

Even saying all this..........I hate electronics on 4wds so as far as Im concerned.......I will still have my Disco but for the second car, I would do an electric conversion on the carolla......If there was one available:D

There probably will be a conversion for the Corolla soon. There is already a company doing a conversion for the Hyandai Getz, you supply the car they do the conversion. Performance doesnt suffer but it only has a range of 100 km, but advances in battery technology will change that in time. The drawback is the cost, $32000 but Hyundai will still honour the 5 year warranty on all the original components on the car.

All these people that are bagging hybrid/electric vehicles dont have their minds open to the fact that they are a work in progress.

The car that we drive today has had 100+ years of development whereas the more environmentally friendly forms of transport are relatively new.

Imagine what advances are going to take place in the next 100 years.

Not much use being a dinosaur, didnt work for them.

[DiscoStew]

You will always make less energy through driving a car and charging a battery bank than if you were driving the car alone.

I think that they only do the charging at times when the energy would otherwise be wasted eg when braking. But as you say they also carry extra weight 100% of the time.

[2 rocks]

Tried and failed to find a pic of a great sticker that was posted on the Jeep forum...

Anyhoo...the text was something like: "I'm Carbon Positive -Suck It Up!"

Ooops - was that inappropriate? ;)
Mike

[mcrover]

I think that they only do the charging at times when the energy would otherwise be wasted eg when braking. But as you say they also carry extra weight 100% of the time.

It is called "regenerative braking" and it only supplies a couple of percent of the total recharge, 98% of charge comes from the engine/generator so all your really doing is taking out the transmission and replacing it with an electric motor.

I was meaning with the plug in statement that it would be much more economical IF the prius could also be charged up off the mains so the engine didnt have to be used as much only when extra pep is needed.

At the moment, the only way to fully charge the batteries and make the best use out of them would be on a long trip at moderate speeds where it wouldnt keep flipping back to the petrol engine.

Yes they are in their infancy but there are some bloody clever people working on this but I think that there is really something holding them back as the tech they are using is dino style, e.g. Engine/EMotor/Generator/Batteries, just add some clever little addons like the regen braking and a bit of electrickery control and you have an old school elecky car with a gen set built in and not much more.

Similar to this 1981 Electric Rabbit (http://www.mrsharkey.com/rabbit.htm)

[JDNSW]

The problem with regenerative braking is that none of the currently available batteries can accept anything like the rate of energy transfer implied by even normal braking (it can be and is used pretty fully in electric trams and trains where there is no battery to limit the amount you can use, although the power supply in some systems does limit it).The problem with existing hybrid designs is that their economy can be matched or bettered for less cost with a conventional engine, because these do not have to lug round the batteries. A battery breakthrough (cost, charge rate, charge/discharge efficiency, and energy density) would make hybrids effective, but the same breakthrough would make electric cars look more attractive than hybrids for most uses.

Over twenty five years ago, my brother in the USA owned a VW Rabbit. He kept full fuel records for the life of it, and it averaged 52 miles per US gallon, most of it in city driving with the aircon going full blast. He replaced it with a Jetta Diesel - never gave as much as 40mpg (US), and then had to replace it with a petrol one as they stopped selling the diesel in the US. This was lucky to do 30mpg. So the technology to do a lot better than current caars has been around for many years - fuel economy is simply not a priority with most buyers, although that may be changing. But even the bottom line cars today weigh far more than the 1978 VW Rabbit, and have far higher performance!

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

A friend popped into my office just this week, he works for the Central West Area Health Service out of Dubbo and is complaining about his fuel bills driving his diesel MY03 HiLux back to the family property in the upper Hunter for weekends.

At work he has the option of 3 vehicles, Prius, Toyota Corolla and Ford Focus. Both the Corrolla and the Focus get better fuel economy than the Prius, because they have almost no stop start running.

Word from a local NRMA patrolman is that the earliest Prius are now having to change their battery packs - $6,000 a pack. To get to the average age of 15 years they will need 3 packs. Doesn't make a lot of economic sense when you are paying $500 per year in batteries on top of other running and fuel costs. That is without calculating the environmental cost of the battery packs.

Diana

[JDNSW]

........

Word from a local NRMA patrolman is that the earliest Prius are now having to change their battery packs - $6,000 a pack. To get to the average age of 15 years they will need 3 packs. Doesn't make a lot of economic sense when you are paying $500 per year in batteries on top of other running and fuel costs. That is without calculating the environmental cost of the battery packs.

Diana

A recent RACV publication listing running costs showed the Prius and the Honda hybrids to be easily the most expensive cars to run in their class - and since that looked only at about five year ownership, it did not include battery replacement.

John

[marsonearth]

I get 5l/100km from my prius
200$ fixed servicing costs
Sell at 4years
Cheaper then the dunny door it replaced

The battery is a short term energy sink, that is, Charge while breaking / consume while accelerating
The level of charge in the battery is not critical
This type of battery we can make

The type that is charged over night and discharged by driving, we can't make to meet our driving expectations yet

However electric vehicles are the future
The burning of fossil fuels will stop when they become too expensive to burn

Until then

The Prius for the city
and the series 2 for every where else

Steve

[JDNSW]

.........
However electric vehicles are the future
The burning of fossil fuels will stop when they become too expensive to burn
........
Steve

Unfortunately, there are a couple of minor problems with this scenario - almost all electricity in Australia is produced from fossil fuels, and electricity generation represents (from memory) 70% of Australia's CO2 emissions, so changing to electric vehicles will not reduce consumption of fossil fuels or CO2 emissions without a lot of other changes. And costs will not stop coal burning, although emissions concerns may do so - there is no coal shortage in sight.

I agree that electric cars will feature large in the future, but for most of Australia, where a range of at least 1000km is essential (or at least 500 if it can be recharged in a few minutes), there is no practical battery technology in sight, so some form of liquid (or gas) fuelled vehicle seems inevitable.

At Mudgee Field day a fortnight ago I saw a company advertising electric conversion of small cars for as little as $18,000. Although they only have a range of around 30km, for many commuters or as a shopping/school run car for mum this would be quite suitable in many cases. This is something available today, but the standing costs of owning a car just for commuting etc make it impractical for most people (registration, insurance, capital costs etc) while they need to have a conventional car for even driving across town - when I visit Melbourne, for example, where my son lives and I have lots of contacts (I lived there for 22 years), it is not at all unusual for me to do 2-300km a day, even though I use public transport when possible. For example, staying in Caroline Springs, I will want to visit friends at Dixon's Creek, Wantirna, Balwyn, Phillip Island. Of these, only Balwyn is feasible using public transport, and the others will all involve a round trip of well over 100km.

John

[marsonearth]

Yes John
The needs of today are a far cry from what they were 70 years ago
People traveled for weeks not days
The needs of today are going to be a far cry from what they will be 70 years into the future
People again may have to except longer travel times (Depending on on the foresight of our politicians)
An energy mix will be likely but only for the rich or those that can produce their own.

My children will know fuel as something to be savored and respected ( unlike me ) because economic forces will demand this respect.
At this stage the common man will be limited to a 30km round trip
Or public transport
There are many European examples of people not leaving their village in their life time
Economies can still function
European towns are close together because of the necessity of travel (we too may need more towns along routes in the future)
Australia will still prosper for the same reason it has in the past (it is rich in natural resources compared to others) however if our politicians continue to be populist they will leave us clinging to the past rather then embracing the future.

The Prius is a first step down the road to the future
(not perfect but neither was the past)

Yes I agree! coal is going nowhere

Unless the scientists have got it right and global warming produces a change of heart??

Steve

[JDNSW]

Yes John
1. The needs of today are a far cry from what they were 70 years ago
People traveled for weeks not days
The needs of today are going to be a far cry from what they will be 70 years into the future
People again may have to except longer travel times (Depending on on the foresight of our politicians)
An energy mix will be likely but only for the rich or those that can produce their own.

2. My children will know fuel as something to be savored and respected ( unlike me ) because economic forces will demand this respect.
At this stage the common man will be limited to a 30km round trip
Or public transport
There are many European examples of people not leaving their village in their life time
Economies can still function
European towns are close together because of the necessity of travel (we too may need more towns along routes in the future)
Australia will still prosper for the same reason it has in the past (it is rich in natural resources compared to others) however if our politicians continue to be populist they will leave us clinging to the past rather then embracing the future.

3.The Prius is a first step down the road to the future
(not perfect but neither was the past)

Yes I agree! coal is going nowhere

Unless the scientists have got it right and global warming produces a change of heart??

Steve

1. 70 years ago most people travelled by train, but much of the infrastructure has been abandoned or dismantled. Since Australia's population is far more urbanised than it was then, it is difficult to see it being replaced. However, I would also point out that, for example, an uncle of mine rode his pushbike from Sydney to Hobart and back (obviously except the water) in 1921. So not everyone was confined to local travel or public transport. Australian towns have always been a long way apart (and Australians have always travelled long distances), but there used to be closely spaced inns on coach routes to provide changes of horses, and something like this is possible in the future.

2. I would be surprised if fuel costs will limit people in the way you suggest - certainly likely to reduce travel, but not to that extent. The point is, as fuel gets more expensive, more alternatives become economically practical.

3. The Prius may be a first step, although I am very doubtful whether it is the road to the future - as pointed out in earlier posts, it is only an improvement on normal types of cars in an urban environment where public transport or all electric are the future, and at present is not economically sensible for most uses.

What most people are not prepared to even think about, let alone discuss, is that the basic problem with the greenhouse emissions is that there are far too many people in the world. At least, despite the urging of politicians through the years, Australia has still got a relatively modest population, and hence is a minor greenhouse contributor - although I have seen it suggested that our population is around double what is really sustainable on the long term. And the real crunch in Australia is water, not carbon emissions.

John

[Pedro_The_Swift]

The Prius is ALL ABOUT FUEL ECONOMY and as you just mentioned the fuel numbers from 36 years ago
You can now see how conned we all are in their "acheivements" :wasntme:

The 120Y ... I remember them ... Sit in the front seat to drive and your head was looking out through the rear door window to see whats coming left & right

Yep .. they were big on space :BigThumb: but were great to carve up & slip in a chevy motor

Hang on ... Have a look at how Datsun 120 should really go like
YouTube - v8 datsun 120y burnout (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uoLAXLfnow)

Now theres progress!!! :p


but all it does is go round and round???

this does too,, but also straight! ;)


http://www.ozdat.com/ozdatonline/realvideo/SouthernCrossPractice_med.avi

I'll take this induction noise over my V8 any day---


and --

NAME THAT CAR!!!!

[marsonearth]

1 Thats determination
2 Alternatives such as bio use water (and lots of it to grow crops) we don't have enough now, we won't be going bio mainstream. The point is at the present there is no alternative on the scale of petrol that we can sustain (we can't even sustain petrol)
(Google petrol shortages) I think the geologist will win over the economists on this one (the alternatives will be there but expensive and in short supply)
3 A prius is an electric vehicle (a team at Sydney uni has converted theres to plugin)
Maybe the mod of the future??
4 Yes access to water has been the impetus for a lot of aggressive land grabs in the past, I certainly hope we don't get to that stage.

Steve

[moose]

With wanting to inflame things, my Mazda 6 diesel gets 6l/100 (and I can't be ar$ed driving economically), it meets the latest euro emissions standards and it's cheaper than the prius.




NAME THAT CAR!!!!
Looks like a 180B SSS

[mcrover]

With wanting to inflame things, my Mazda 6 diesel gets 6l/100 (and I can't be ar$ed driving economically), it meets the latest euro emissions standards and it's cheaper than the prius.



Looks like a 180B SSS

Called into Hyundai dealer the other day to get a price on an I30d to replace the Carolla and they are getting into the 5's on the Hwy and I think it was 6.8 max, average was 6l/100kms.

We car get into the mid 6's with the Carolla now so not really worth $27k to change over for now.

I think that the power co.s should be looking at mounting solar panels on every possible roof they can.

This would provide a fair chunk of green power to replace dirty power from coal and then put in a powered lane on our fwy's so that cars like the Prius can drive to and then hook up like a tram and drive in to town and back on elec not bothering anyone.

I doubt that a solar network would cover it but it is a non envasive way of making clean power that doesnt require a large amount of man power to maintain.

Then with wind and hydro we would be on the way to covering a fair chunk of the power produced by coal now.

There is also the possability of small Hydro stations on storm water and sewage pipelines which is being used by some golf courses and parks in the UK and US at the moment to offset their power usage.

There is no getting past it though, the Prius is a waste of money and does very little for the enviroment than give the owners a warm and fuzzy feeling when they say they are looking after the enviroment by spending way too much money on driving a prius.

[rangieman]

but all it does is go round and round???

this does too,, but also straight! ;)


http://www.ozdat.com/ozdatonline/realvideo/SouthernCrossPractice_med.avi

I'll take this induction noise over my V8 any day---


and --

NAME THAT CAR!!!!
240 K COUPE:D Datto

[JDNSW]

Following from McRover's post, in my view a lot could be done to encourage households to install solar collectors. Apart from the fact that going to solar hot water would make a substantial decrease in power use, encouraging installation of photo-voltaic collectors to supply the house and sell extra power to the grid has the advantage that it would forestall the need not only to build new coal fired power plants, but also reduce the need to upgrade the network. These exist at present, but the biggest disincentive is that currently they sell power back to the grid at base load rates - even if the power is supplied at peak times. With smart meters there is no need for this.

As far as fuel supplies go, Australia at least has vast supplies of natural gas, including coal bed methane. It also has even more vast supplies of coal, which can be transformed to synthetic natural gas or coal to liquid processes such as Fischer-Tropsch, or gasified in-situ. This technology is in place today, being used to some extent, for example coal to liquids is being used in South Africa, having been established during sanctions, and there are coal to diesel plants and in-seam gasification on an experimental basis in the USA. The only problems are cost and carbon emissions - but to say that fuel will become unavailable in the foreseeable future is inaccurate. Expensive, yes.

John

PS I do not supply power to the grid, but run entirely on solar and wind power, so I do know a bit about it. There is at least one solar installation locally that supplies surplus to the grid.

[clean32]

Hybrid cars, ok today any of the major car manufactures could produce a Toyota corolla sized electric car with 200 Klm range for about 35K, that would need an 8 hour charge time or a 4 hour on a gen set. Its here now,
Also why is the Australian government blocking the import of the all electric ( smart car size) car from India? Retail about 11K here range 120 klm.
France produces 80% of its electricity from nuclear stations; a year’s production produces a refined waste the size of a pound of butter once sealed.
Regenitive breaking provideds much more than just 2-4 % charge back to the battery pack. The hard bit is the batteries can not be charged that fast. Use capacitors, end of problem.
Just like the 70s fuel price hike today’s fuel price hike is manufactured, propaganda just misinforms us into believing what we are being told. I the 70s it produced fractionalized banking; this time around it is a balance struggle between a couple of governments and the banking institutes, looks like the governments have won.

[blitz]

Err I drive a disco V8 - what ecomony

What fuel crisis

What global warming

:p

Blythe

[mcrover]

Err I drive a disco V8 - what ecomony

What fuel crisis

What global warming

:p

Blythe

Your a real freind to the enviroment :p

[moose]

On a side note, I heard the other day that none of the major oil companies are willing to sell E85 ethanol blend in their servo's in Aus. Hmm, now let me think, how many sugar crops would they own??:angel:

[JDNSW]

Hybrid cars,
1. ok today any of the major car manufactures could produce a Toyota corolla sized electric car with 200 Klm range for about 35K, that would need an 8 hour charge time or a 4 hour on a gen set. Its here now,

2. Also why is the Australian government blocking the import of the all electric ( smart car size) car from India? Retail about 11K here range 120 klm.

3. France produces 80% of its electricity from nuclear stations; a year’s production produces a refined waste the size of a pound of butter once sealed.

4. Regenitive breaking provideds much more than just 2-4 % charge back to the battery pack. The hard bit is the batteries can not be charged that fast. Use capacitors, end of problem.

5. Just like the 70s fuel price hike today’s fuel price hike is manufactured, propaganda just misinforms us into believing what we are being told. I the 70s it produced fractionalized banking; this time around it is a balance struggle between a couple of governments and the banking institutes, looks like the governments have won.

1. While I don't claim to be completely up to date with the technology, I am unaware of any technology that could do this and that is capable of actually being mass produced, let alone at that price! Please elaborate. Also, explain why a gen set can charge faster than mains - I cannot see any possible explanation for this (I grant you may need three phase power to do it).

2. ADRs

3. Nuclear power is certainly the CO2 minimum technology that is here now. But I believe you are understating the waste quantity by a large factor, although the quantity of waste is certainly much smaller than most people seem to imagine.

4. Regenerative braking as you state, cannot be used to any extent to charge batteries as they exist at present. And the solution to this problem is promised by ultracapacitors - but at present it is only a promise. In fact, ultracapacitors promise to revolutionise batteries in all sorts of applications. One major reason for this is that they have a very high charge/discharge efficiency - probably around 95%, depending on rate. This compares to chemical batteries typically 60-80% - one of the main reasons for the popularity of lead-acid batteries is that at around 80% they are far more efficient than anything else available. However, ultracapacitors are not yet available either in quantities or at prices that make them feasible for production cars, although this could change quite rapidly. (Just checking on the current state of technology, Maxwell's ultracapacitors are quoted as having an energy storage density of 5.52Wh/kg, less than half the figure of typical lead-acid batteries. And I could not quickly find a price quoted.)

5. I don't understand this paragraph.

John

[mcrover]

On a side note, I heard the other day that none of the major oil companies are willing to sell E85 ethanol blend in their servo's in Aus. Hmm, now let me think, how many sugar crops would they own??:angel:

More to the point, they should be o look at it as how many could they own to keep their business profitable.

On the solar front, in 1 case that I know of, a golf course in NSW, (not sure which one but I can find out) have installed solar panels on their sheds to supply power to grid and run lighting, computers etc during working hours.

This then with the installation of timers on the chargers they charge their carts and buggies off peak, this means they sell their extra power at the base rate and then buy it back over night at off peak rate so they make a small profit.

We are looking into similar at work but want to get a clear veiw of the carbon credits scheam first to see how we can make the most out of it.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

....France produces 80% of its electricity from nuclear stations; a year’s production produces a refined waste the size of a pound of butter once sealed ....
If we don't want to have mains power and don't want to have CO2 emissions from coal or oil fired stations or the problems related to the safe storage of used nuclear waste, then why aren't the Australian Governments talking about Solar Thermal - one thing that we do have is lots of sun and we also have lots of land which is in non-arable regions. So why don't we do it?

The Spanish have one in the Andalusian plains that generates 11 Megawatts without any CO2 or nuclear waste generation. BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Power station harnesses Sun's rays (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6616651.stm)

[JDNSW]

If we don't want to have mains power and don't want to have CO2 emissions from coal or oil fired stations or the problems related to the safe storage of used nuclear waste, then why aren't the Australian Governments talking about Solar Thermal - one thing that we do have is lots of sun and we also have lots of land which is in non-arable regions. So why don't we do it?

The Spanish have one in the Andalusian plains that generates 11 Megawatts without any CO2 or nuclear waste generation. BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Power station harnesses Sun's rays (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6616651.stm)

The article gives the major reason - " this power is three times more expensive than power from conventional sources", but there are other reasons as well.

One major one is that areas of reliable sunlight tend to be areas remote from the areas of power demand, and also remote from grid infrastructure. There is also the problem that thermal solar plants of this type (or almost any other - but see below) require a substantial source of cooling water or the cost rise even further if dry cooling is necessary, and the sunny areas closest to areas of demand are also short of water.

Then there is the NIMBY factor - look at the reaction of neighbours to wind farms - this sort of thing is at least as visually intrusive.

About ten years ago there was a proposal (which seems to have vanished) for a different type of solar thermal power station near Swan Hill. This would have comprised an area of several hundred hectares of black roofing a couple of metres above the ground, gradually rising to a central chimney about a kilometre high (may have been higher, I'm going on memory), with one or more turbines at the base, generating power from the hot air going up the chimney. It got a very violent "NIMBY" effect, and serious concerns about local climate modification.

Because of these problems, in my view, the solar photo-voltaic method is more likely to be accepted (not very visually intrusive because they are close to ground level, for a start), and the distributed system model has real advantages in that it requires little new infrastructure and makes the entire power grid more robust. Photovoltaic power is also highly scaleable with little change in cost per kilowatt regardless of scale.

John

[Disco_owner]

Also another thing that comes to mind is " how do you generate power from Solar-Thermal Energy at Night":eek::D?

I assume there will have to be alternate energy sources available , ie Nuclear-power , Hydro-Electric etc.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

With wanting to inflame things, my Mazda 6 diesel gets 6l/100 (and I can't be ar$ed driving economically), it meets the latest euro emissions standards and it's cheaper than the prius.

In what conditions? Stop start or highway?

[mcrover]

The article gives the major reason - " this power is three times more expensive than power from conventional sources", but there are other reasons as well.

One major one is that areas of reliable sunlight tend to be areas remote from the areas of power demand, and also remote from grid infrastructure. There is also the problem that thermal solar plants of this type (or almost any other - but see below) require a substantial source of cooling water or the cost rise even further if dry cooling is necessary, and the sunny areas closest to areas of demand are also short of water.

Then there is the NIMBY factor - look at the reaction of neighbours to wind farms - this sort of thing is at least as visually intrusive.

About ten years ago there was a proposal (which seems to have vanished) for a different type of solar thermal power station near Swan Hill. This would have comprised an area of several hundred hectares of black roofing a couple of metres above the ground, gradually rising to a central chimney about a kilometre high (may have been higher, I'm going on memory), with one or more turbines at the base, generating power from the hot air going up the chimney. It got a very violent "NIMBY" effect, and serious concerns about local climate modification.

Because of these problems, in my view, the solar photo-voltaic method is more likely to be accepted (not very visually intrusive because they are close to ground level, for a start), and the distributed system model has real advantages in that it requires little new infrastructure and makes the entire power grid more robust. Photovoltaic power is also highly scaleable with little change in cost per kilowatt regardless of scale.

John

As far as infrastructure goes and water supply, the infrastructure wasnt always there for the grid we have now so whats to stop them from building more high tension lines to get it to the centres where it's needed? Cost? I think it's about time that some of the profits found their way into this sort of thing.

Water availablility isnt that much of a problem, there is masses of ground water that could be used for cooling which is brackish or not suitable to drink which could then be returned to the water table.


Also another thing that comes to mind is " how do you generate power from Solar-Thermal Energy at Night":eek::D?

I assume there will have to be alternate energy sources available , ie Nuclear-power , Hydro-Electric etc.

Yes there's Hydro electric which as I said can be used on storm water and sewage systems on a small scale and wind power (the nay sayers will just have to suck it up because it is visually intrusive but other than that it is non intrusive and there will just be more and more out in due to the outputs are large enough to make it comercially viable)

[moose]

In what conditions? Stop start or highway?
That's the average, it gets used for running around town, driving to work, etc. It's done 50,000km in the year we've had it.

[RonMcGr]

If I see a Prius, I quickly get OUT of it's way...
*******
Q. Has anyone had any problems with their Toyota Prius?

A. the batteries lose efficacy fast enough that your "savings "on gas
will be off set by there replacement cost..that is if there were savings
..the cost of the car it's self off set any real savings there could be .
Toyota has the most recalls of any manufacturer..and they won't recall
the tundra right now even tho they know it has a potentially deadly habit
of accelerating when the driver wants to stop...avoid Toyota at all costs
...don't be a sucker for some "green advertising "

A. The only potential problem I see is an intake valve. There is a vent
in the rear seat that goes directly into the battery. If it gets clogged,
it'll basically destroy the car. We're not even letting fat people sit in
that spot, because it's easy to inadvertently cover. The manual
recommends against hauling aquariums or other large water objects.

A. Andrea of Plano TX (7/8/03):
My complaints are numerous (2001 Toyota Prius):
1. Front end alignment -- cause unknown. Several alignments, still
doesn't track well.
2. Gas gauge/tank problems -- went from 45.0mg to 29.5 mpg - took several
trips to get the problem "solved" -- not sure that it is totally solved.
Consumption screen is screwy and so is the gas gauge. Also told car loses
gas mileage as they get older -- car was only a year or so old and a
Prius doesn't use gas when stopped.
3. Rack and pinion steering -- several trips to service before they
agreed there's a problem and fixed it.
4. 3rd set of tires -- 18,000, 36,000 and about 45,000 miles
5. Accelerator assembly quit in rush hour traffic -- fixed, took two
trips. There's still a noticeable drop in power, almost daily.

Most problems "fixed" but I don't trust this car nor do I trust Toyota of
Richardson Tex to fix my car. The second trip for the accelerator I was
told there was nothing wrong with the car, but the "sticky" place
disappeared after second trip. They didn't want to admit they were wrong.


A. Karen of Fairhope AL (07/16/08)
The 07 Toyota Prius stated 60 MPH for in town, and from the first tank, I
have averaged only 45 MPH. Why was Toyota not being honest about the MPH?
Did the EPA really change the way it rates MPH?

A. W of Anaheim CA (07/16/08)
Re: 2005 Prius purchased 4/30/05 Noise after shut-down or when brake is
depressed to start __________________________________________ On 7/11/08
we took the car to the dealer to have this problem investigated because
the noise continued intermittently for several hours the previous night.
As we left for the dealer, the ABS warning lights came on, but, we
experienced no problem with the brakes on the three mile drive. We were
told that the cause was the ABS actuator and it would cost $2600 to
repair. We were only 2-1/2 months out of warranty with only 32,016 miles
on the odometer - not the 36,000 that would put us out of warranty if the
time hadn't run out. We were stunned to have such an expensive repair on
such a new car. We immediately contacted Toyota Motor Sales. On reviewing
the service record, we found that we had had the car serviced for a
different complaint (an unexplained beeping when the brakes were applied)
in May 2007. The identical part had been replaced under warranty. The new
part was warranted for 1 year. Again we were out of warranty by a couple
of months and after only 13,000 miles of driving. Toyota Motor Sales
negotiated with our dealer and decided that between them they would cover
the $2000 cost of the part and we should pay $600 labor (estimated at
5.5Hrs.) to replace it. Checking on line indicates several cases of
failure of this part. However, many people may be experiencing problems
without realizing it because of the strange and unpredictable symptoms.
Toyota has published Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) BR001-07 that
describes the problem and instructs the service departments not to do
anything unless the customers complain. In our experience this would put
many of the complaints out of warranty.
________________________________________ Tires ___________ We are also
very unhappy with the the tires and/or the suspension system. We have
experienced excessive tire wear and after 32,000 miles we need a new set.

A. Allen of Bessemer MI (07/02/08)
While accellerating into traffic on US-2 WB from Country Club Road in
Gogebic County, Michigan, the throttle on my new Prius (4,000 miles)
stuck wide open. I was able to maintain 55 mph by sporadic breaking and
finally managed to brake to a stop. While the engine was in the
accellerating mode, I was unable to shift to neutral, shut the engine
off, or otherwise stop the vehicle. After I was finally able to brake to
a stop (with both electric and gas engines still drawing full power), the
engine did shut down for a few seconds and I was able to hit the power
button and shut the engine off. I thought, at this time, that whatever
was wrong would have rectified itself, so I restarted the car with the
power button, while in park. The engine returned to it's normal idle
cylcle, but as soon as I put the shift lever into drive, the engine again
began racing and as I was now in heavy traffic in a 40 mph zone, I had to
maintain steady pressure on the brake pedal to keep the car within a safe
speed and lane usage. The engine (both gas and electric) now applied more
power as I was breaking and before I was able to pull off the street, the
brakes were smoking so badly my brother thought thew car was on fire.
Once into the parking lot of a local bank, and stopped, the engine again
paused briefly and I shut it down with the power button. While this
engine racing was taking place, I tried to shift to neutral, hit the park
switch, the power putton, stepped on and off the throttle pedal
repeatedly, and switched the cruise control button on and off several
times. The only succesfull remedy was to brake down through full applied
power to a stop, with smoking brakes and wait for a pause in engine rpm.
If I waited for more than a second or two, the high revs would resume and
run high for several more seconds. My Toyota dealer advised me that they
could find nothing wrong, test drove the car for 10 miles and had no
recurrence. They also suggested that my floor mat had become stuck on the
throttle pedal causing the incident. The service manager (Eric Bolen)
stated that Toyota maintained that this rampant throttle run was
IMPOSSIBLE I am a retired Michigan State Trooper especially trained in
accident investigation and reconstruction, a former Cummins Diesel
mecahnic and have installed several after market cruise controlls on at
least three different makes of vehicles, so I am very familiar with
mechanical and electronic systems. I am also quite experience in dealing
with emergency driving situations after spending 25 years on the road as
an enforcement officer. After being told about the floor mat excuse, and
knowing that I had tried to step on and release the accellerator pedal
over and over while the incident was happening, I did take the time to
place the floor mat both over and jam it under the pedal.......neither
tactics were able to jam the pedal's movement. In spite of Toyota's claim
that this condition is impossible, I have enough experience with vehicles
and emergency driving situations to know that this actually did happen,
was not a matter of a floor mat getting jammed either on or under the
accellerator pedal, and in fact was the result of some internal operating
system glitch. At this juncture, I have no complaint with our Toyota
dealer or their employees, and the vehicle seems to be functioning
normally now. I am concerned that Toyota has not addressed this as a
safety issue, however. Had this happened with my wife driving, I am sure
this would not have come to a safe conclusion. We are still driving this
vehicle but I have instructed her in how to handle a simililar condition
should it recure. Thank you for providing a forum for getting this
information out. If necessary I can provide vehicle VIN etc for more
thorough evaluation.

A. Anna of Keizer OR (06/24/08)
My Prius had the brakes go out (luckily for me it was under warranty and
I had a Toyota staff person advocate for my warranty so it was honored)
however, after reaching 100,000 miles, my display is now starting to show
the same signs as some of the other people are complaining about the
monitor turning off the radio, or a/c while I'm driving.

A. Geo of Huntsburg OH (06/15/08)
we bought a new 2002 toyota prius and with 20,000 miles on our original
set and 50000 on our 2nd set we now have to buy a 3rd set of tires
because the outer tread has worn down to the radial. these tires are
supposed to last 65000 miles and neither toyota nor bridgestone will do
anything about this potentially life threatening problem. We had the
tires rotated, balanced and aligned as needed. In my opinion, if you want
a eco freindly car buy a honda.

A. Michael of Willits CA (06/12/08)
The Traction Control system on my 2008 Toyota Prius is worthless. I have
a steep gravel driveway that is extremely hard to climb due to the
unnecessary engine cut outs, especially if there is any extra weight in
the rear of the car. The engines quit when the computer senses any type
of slippage; worse in the summer when gravel is dry. Also there are very
noticeable engine cut outs when just going over bumps on level pavement.
My previous Prius, a 2002, would slip a bit on the same driveway but I
had much more control over the car and the speed compared to the new
2008, very acceptable. Heavier tires with more rubber on the road made
little difference with the 2002; I expect the same when I get better
tires on the 2008. Had I known about the problem with this earlier, as I
have just found reported on the internet, I would not have purchased this
car.

A. I am SICK to my stomach. I have TRUSTED Toyota for YEARS to provide a
SAFE and RELIABLE vehicle. I traded in my 2007 Toyota Touring Avalon on
my 2008 Toyota Prius ... NEVER even giving ONE thought that I was buying
an UNSAFE and HAZARDOUS car. (Boy do I ever wish I still had the Avalon
...)

A. Ginny of Cascade ID (06/03/08)
My new 2007 Prius Toyota with 5000 miles on it quit running. Would not
start. Called dealer and had maintenance dept. walk me through a jump
start as with these cars you do it under the front hood not in the back
where the battery is. Car still would not start. They said have it towed
in. I did have it towed in the 85 miles to the dealer. After several mis
communication calls and two different reports on my car I found out they
will not fix under warranty. Say I jumped it wrong. They say I caused the
damage and that warranty is only for defective parts.

A. Ted of Eagle CO (05/26/08)
On August 10, 2008 my wife, Elizabeth James, experienced an unintended
acceleration of our Prius resulting in a totalled car and long term minor
injuries for her (chronic back pain, obstructed intestines).

A. Dean of New Rochelle NY (05/15/08)
The Toyota Prius nearly killed a mechanic and me today, literally. I had
the car stored for months in my flat level driveway for a relative who is
traveling abroad. Naturally, the battery went dead after not being driven
during this time. So, I had a mechanic come and he started the engine
today. While the Prius engine was running, both the mechanic and myself
were half in and half outside the car; the mechanic by the driver side
and me by the passenger side. The car suddenly lunged in reverse and the
driver side opened door of the Prius totally destroyed my car driver side
door parked along side it, and somehow the mechanic brought the car to a
stop. The mechanic claims the Prius was in neutral but the brake had been
applied when it suddenly, with no warning, accelerated in reverse. Im
thankful we escaped without injury but now I have a hefty expense to
replace my car door. Just imagine if someone had been behind the Prius
today, they likely would have died.

A. J. of Dublin, Ireland (05/15/08)
June 2004 Toyota Prius....28,800 miles. Computer Display unit on the
dash-board has gone faulty. Toyota say its not covered on the 8yr Hybrid
system warranty? They are looking for almost 3500 euro to replace
it.....after ONLY 28,000 miles!!! Have been offered a Reconditioned unit
for half the price? There must be a manufacturing problem with this
unit??

Air-conditioning unit not working and radio also faulty, plus no read-out
on display unit. A right pain to say the least!

A. Paget of Santa Monica CA (05/09/08)
I recently bought a Toyota Prius 2008. After one week I had a dead
battery. I have since learned that the car is started with a small 12v
battery and due to the size and number of items it runs on the car
(radio, CD, air conditioning fan, alarm, smart key entry etc) the battery
can go dead very quickly. if the car is not driven, the battery dies in 7
days. Even if you drive the car, it takes approx 10 hours of driving to
fully charge the 12v. I have never read this in any of the research I did
on this car.

A. Kevin of Rochester NY (05/09/08)
While test driving a Toyota Prius today the car accelerated on its own
even though my foot was off the gas and on the break. The sales women was
in the car with me and was as frightened. I drove the car about a half a
mile before I could find a driveway to pull off on. By then the car was
engulfed in smoke from the breaks over heating. I was finally able to
pull off the road and stopped the acceleration when I tapped the
accelerator. We drove the car back to the dealership to the service
department. Upon telling the service person our story he commented that
this happens all the time with this car and blamed the problem on the
accelerator being caught in the floor mat. I immediately walked ou to the
car opened the driver door, got on my hands and knees and examined the
floor mat and then pushed the accelerator down to the floor and
determined there was a inch distance between the mat and accelerator.
Toyota has a problem they need to solve!

A. William of New York NY (05/07/08)
I have a 2006 Prius fully loaded. I was checking the tire pressure one
day and had my hand in front of the tire. The engine kicked in, I guess
to charge the battery and the car jerked forward an inch or two. Good
thing I moved my hand quick enough. This is an accident waiting to
happen. So becareful if you have it on park and the engine is on. In
addition, when I'm waiting for someone in the streets and put it on park.
When the engine kicks in, the car jerks forward. And you know, in NYC
midtown area, there are alot of jay walkers. I hope they take this safety
concern into consideraton in future models.

A. Michael of Placerville CA (04/25/08)
Toyota Prius balked (shut Down) when entering highway from a incline and
we were not able to get out of the way of oncoming traffic. Repair costs
to prius almost $10,000. Cannot get up drive way when it rains, snow
makes the car start and stop often.

A. Kathy of Torrance CA (03/13/08)
I am the owner of 2006 Prius. On February 25, 2008 at 8am heading to
work, suddenly, the hazardous red light and the battery light went off on
my dashboard screen and realized that my car was loosing power on busy
110 Harbor freeway north bound. I panicked not knowing what happened. The
car became heavy and it started to slow down no matter how I pushed the
accelerator.

I could not control the speed anymore. All I could think was to pull my
car to the right shoulder and I barely made it to the nearest shoulder
which was very narrow. I feared of the speeding cars approaching from
behind thinking maybe one of the cars will eventually crash into me. I
called above dealer right away but I was told that they would not know
the problem until they see my car and suggested my car be towed. When my
car got to the dealer, Sean first told me that things like this is most
likely covered under warranty so he suggested leaving the car and rent a
car.

[mcrover]

So in other words Ron, the Prius isnt just a Toyota marketing ploy that stupid people are falling for but they are a dangerous lemon of a car as well.:p

[RonMcGr]

So in other words Ron, the Prius isnt just a Toyota marketing ploy that stupid people are falling for but they are a dangerous lemon of a car as well.:p


I don't know about "Lemon" :angel:

They do appear to be a "product" that is small and heavy at 1,730kg, chews out tyres and has a mind of it's own :D

One of my Brother in Laws was trying to talk a family member into buying one, simply because he saw one as a Taxi, and assumed it must be great.

I collected that list for him, so now he's backing Hyundai :D

By far a much better choice. No I don't own one but my two Daughters have one each. Cannot fault them for reliability, just, well.. boring :)

Cheers

[Captain_Rightfoot]

That's the average, it gets used for running around town, driving to work, etc. It's done 50,000km in the year we've had it.

Thats a good average. Problem is without being specific about its usage it's very hard to tell how good that is. I see the ADR combined is 5.9, but I couldn't find a urban and extra urban.

I gather that you would do a fair bit of light or highway driving to get that average? :)

I don't mean to give you the Spanish Inquisition but I'm genuinely interested. I think this type of car makes far more sense for a family than buying a Toyota Pious.

Our direct injection turbo Audi can easily achive 6.2 or 6.3 in highway driving. It's quite common for it to do 7.0 -7.5 in mixed light urban. However in heavy stop start inner urban driving it's not uncommon for it to return 12. For our usage it averages between 8 and 10 l/100 depending almost entirely on the usage for that tank. Also if the wife drives it predominately it uses about 10% more than it would have done if I were driving. :eek:

IMHO these modern diesels don't make sense if you do a lot of highway driving but they do if you do a lot of inner urban stop start stuff. With the increase in cost of diesel and the extra the manufactures charge for the diesel they probably don't make sense if the manufacturer offers a good petrol. Not all of them do though. Subaru are a good example, even their most economical petrol is quite a guzzler by class standards.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I collected that list for him, so now he's backing Hyundai :D

By far a much better choice. No I don't own one but my two Daughters have one each. Cannot fault them for reliability, just, well.. boring :)

Cheers
No one I've ever found has said that Hyundais are not cheap, economical or reliable. However they have a highly questionable safety pedigree. :(

[mcrover]

I don't know about "Lemon" :angel:

They do appear to be a "product" that is small and heavy at 1,730kg, chews out tyres and has a mind of it's own :D

One of my Brother in Laws was trying to talk a family member into buying one, simply because he saw one as a Taxi, and assumed it must be great.

I collected that list for him, so now he's backing Hyundai :D

By far a much better choice. No I don't own one but my two Daughters have one each. Cannot fault them for reliability, just, well.. boring :)

Cheers


Boring is fine, boring is cheap to run, repair and maintain.

Boring still gets you from home to work and home again as well as too the shops and to pick up the kids etc.

The Carolla is boring but also fits all the above catagories.

I thing the Prius is a horrible blight in automotive history, Toyota has lied at why they made it , they lie about how economical it is, they lie about what problems it has as well as not allowing other than toyota mechanics access to diagnostic equipment there for ensuring that they can screw the owner out of their money and no one else ever will.

They leave out that the batteries will die within a few years and then what do you have, a petrol engined underpowered car with an elecric transmision lugging 1/2 a tonne of batteries for nothing or a $6000 bill to replace them.

Plus they are no more good for the enviroment than any other car as they still burn fuel, they use more tyres and when the batteries crap themselves where will they end up, land fill or recycled, both of which are not good for the enviroment plus the amount of plastics and electronics that are full of mercury and lead and other heavy metals that are soooooo good for the enviroment when they are finished with.

Just my opinion...:p

[RonMcGr]

No one I've ever found has said that Hyundais are not cheap, economical or reliable. However they have a highly questionable safety pedigree. :(

A mate in Adelaide, bough a Getz for his wife.
One day she got "T" boned at an intersect by a hoon running a red light. The poor little Getz gotz spun around and written off. The wife opened her door and stepped out with her broken collar bone.

He bought her another Getz and she was very happy to have another.

[mcrover]

No one I've ever found has said that Hyundais are not cheap, economical or reliable. However they have a highly questionable safety pedigree. :(

Coming from a bloke who drives a Defender.........something about glass houses....:p

The only safety feature that means anything in any car is the driver.

Everything else in the end is just different levels of armor.

[moose]

Thats a good average. Problem is without being specific about its usage it's very hard to tell how good that is. I see the ADR combined is 5.9, but I couldn't find a urban and extra urban.

I gather that you would do a fair bit of light or highway driving to get that average? :)

I don't mean to give you the Spanish Inquisition but I'm genuinely interested. I think this type of car makes far more sense for a family than buying a Toyota Pious.

Our direct injection turbo Audi can easily achive 6.2 or 6.3 in highway driving. It's quite common for it to do 7.0 -7.5 in mixed light urban. However in heavy stop start inner urban driving it's not uncommon for it to return 12. For our usage it averages between 8 and 10 l/100 depending almost entirely on the usage for that tank. Also if the wife drives it predominately it uses about 10% more than it would have done if I were driving. :eek:

IMHO these modern diesels don't make sense if you do a lot of highway driving but they do if you do a lot of inner urban stop start stuff. With the increase in cost of diesel and the extra the manufactures charge for the diesel they probably don't make sense if the manufacturer offers a good petrol. Not all of them do though. Subaru are a good example, even their most economical petrol is quite a guzzler by class standards.

To be specific, to my work is 80km round trip, mostly highway (with lots of roadworks:mad:) missus moose uses it to run around town and the usual stuff. I love it 'coz it handles great and I quite often take the more fun hill route home thru the twisty stuff. Obviously the fuel usage goes up a touch if I do lots of that.

It's been excellent from a reliability point of view, and plenty of power, though it's a bit more pricey for servicing. It'll probably get sold off next year when I get a lease car. To be honest though the car was mostly bought 'coz we liked the look and feel of it, and it suits what we do with it, not just for the fuel consumption.
I like most of the subaru range, and I'll be interested to see their new diesel when it comes out.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

A mate in Adelaide, bough a Getz for his wife.
One day she got "T" boned at an intersect by a hoon running a red light. The poor little Getz gotz spun around and written off. The wife opened her door and stepped out with her broken collar bone.

He bought her another Getz and she was very happy to have another.

That's lucky. Maybe she didn't need to have the broken collar bone? Did it hit on the driver or the passenger side? At what speed?

While I applaud consumer crash tests they often don't tell the whole story.

In Australia, the 2002-04 Hyundai Getz was assessed in the Used Car Safety Ratings 2006 as providing "significantly worse than average" protection for its occupants in the event of a crash. (http://www.ancap.com.au/results/98/)

They did add a passenger airbag later but if you value your clients safety why sell the car without it at all? Because they don't care....

[Captain_Rightfoot]

To be specific, to my work is 80km round trip, mostly highway (with lots of roadworks:mad:) missus moose uses it to run around town and the usual stuff. I love it 'coz it handles great and I quite often take the more fun hill route home thru the twisty stuff. Obviously the fuel usage goes up a touch if I do lots of that.

It's been excellent from a reliability point of view, and plenty of power, though it's a bit more pricey for servicing. It'll probably get sold off next year when I get a lease car. To be honest though the car was mostly bought 'coz we liked the look and feel of it, and it suits what we do with it, not just for the fuel consumption.
I like most of the subaru range, and I'll be interested to see their new diesel when it comes out.

That is a commendable result and I'm sure it's a really good car. I think Mazda have another diesel arriving for the 6 next year.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Coming from a bloke who drives a Defender.........something about glass houses....:p

The only safety feature that means anything in any car is the driver.

Everything else in the end is just different levels of armor.

The majority of the driving my family does is our A3. It is built by a company with a long standing commitment to safety. From the euro ncap site.

"The A3 has a very strong and stable passenger safety cage. As a measure of this, after the test (64f offset, drivers side) the driver’s door could still be opened normally. The restraint systems and air bags protected the occupants and kept the driver’s chest and head away from the steering wheel. Side impact protection was also impressive."

I take on board about the defender being not great though. :eek:

[RonMcGr]

That's lucky. Maybe she didn't need to have the broken collar bone? Did it hit on the driver or the passenger side? At what speed?


I do not have any other information.
He did say the hoons car was a mess and an ambulance took them to hospital.

Yes the wife did not need that, but she did fare better than the others.

[CaverD3]

IMHO these modern diesels don't make sense if you do a lot of highway driving but they do if you do a lot of inner urban stop start stuff. With the increase in cost of diesel and the extra the manufactures charge for the diesel they probably don't make sense if the manufacturer offers a good petrol. Not all of them do though. Subaru are a good example, even their most economical petrol is quite a guzzler by class standards.

I think you will find that modern diesels do very well for long distance driving. The diesels all beat the Pious in the standard fuel production models for fuel ecomomy in the Solar Challenge. Stop start is the only situation where the Pious would do better. VW did a concept Golf that diesel that switched off when stationary and started again automatically when you wanted to take off. That would have been goo, dunno why it didn't fly for them though?

The Pious and the Horrid Hybrid are particularly unsuited vehicles for Australian conditions, it works for congested city situations and short distances. ok as a second vehicles if you live in the city?

The Pious is more about marketing than reality and not many who have bought them will be willing to admit it is a mistake because they think others will think they are admitting being environmentally concious was a mistake.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I do not have any other information.
He did say the hoons car was a mess and an ambulance took them to hospital.

Yes the wife did not need that, but she did fare better than the others.

At any rate it's really good that your mates wife was OK. Road safety is so important. Everyone is someone's Mum or sister or daughter or son....


I think you will find that modern diesels do very well for long distance driving. The diesels all beat the Pious in the standard fuel production models for fuel ecomomy in the Solar Challenge. Stop start is the only situation where the Pious would do better. VW did a concept Golf that diesel that switched off when stationary and started again automatically when you wanted to take off. That would have been goo, dunno why it didn't fly for them though?

The Pious and the Horrid Hybrid are particularly unsuited vehicles for Australian conditions, it works for congested city situations and short distances. ok as a second vehicles if you live in the city?

The Pious is more about marketing than reality and not many who have bought them will be willing to admit it is a mistake because they think others will think they are admitting being environmentally concious was a mistake.

I agree with all that. :) I'm just saying that the petrol technologies that are coming now are also very good. VW/Audi have a number of low blow turbos and turbo/supercharged direct injected petrols that give performance and stunning economy. The diesels are great too. VW has a Passat and now Golf "Blue motion" versions returning 5l/100 and 4.something in Europe :) BMW and fia (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/225675/the-100mpg-fuel-busters.html)t have some 100 MPG micros coming very soon.

[mcrover]

At any rate it's really good that your mates wife was OK. Road safety is so important. Everyone is someone's Mum or sister or daughter or son....

All I can say about road safety is that we should teach our drivers how to drive properly and push people to drive properly by actually not giving licences to people who cant drive and taking licences off people who dont drive properly.

Encourage advanced driving courses, 4wding courses and club membership and turn the average car owner driver back into a motorist (motoring enthusiest)


I agree with all that. :) I'm just saying that the petrol technologies that are coming now are also very good. VW/Audi have a number of low blow turbos and turbo/supercharged direct injected petrols that give performance and stunning economy. The diesels are great too. VW has a Passat and now Golf "Blue motion" versions returning 5l/100 and 4.something in Europe :) BMW and fia (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/225675/the-100mpg-fuel-busters.html)t have some 100 MPG micros coming very soon.

Petrol requires more energy to produce and emits more polution than diesel and there is no getting away from that so this is why Diesel, LPG,CNG,CMG or ethanol based fuel is far more likely to take over as the fuels for the future.